#User Letter to C=
32 messages in this thread
Could someone explain C='s policies towards software developers? I've
heard a lot of complaining but little hard information, so the situation
is slightly hazy to me. I'm talking to my dealer about their dealer
policies, which are awful, but he's not 100% clear on how they act to
developers either.
Paul
Paul,
Commodore has two types of developers:
1) Commercial developers – pay about $450 per year for the privilege, and
get telephone support, special prices on Commodore products, etc., in
addition to a couple of publications that come out quarterly (most of the
time.) Encouraged to attend the annual Developer's Conference.
Commercial developers much actually have a published product for sale for
some computer platform and must meet other requirements that I do not know
from memory.
2) Certified developers – pay $100 the first year, $75 thereafter. No
phone support, but they get special prices on products (but more than the
Commercial developers' prices), get the publications, and get to attend
the annual Developer's Conference if they wish. There are qualifications
for this standing also. You have to give evidence that you qualify under
one of a large number of headings that are included in the application.
I've been a certified developer for several years, listed as a technical
writer. I must say that I did a great deal more writing when I began this
program than I now do, but I still write enough to qualify.
I'm sure there is more to it than this, but this is a quick start,
anyway.
—Betty
Paul:
I have few complaints regarding how C= has treated us (VRLI). Some
information that we would find useful, such as demographic info regarding
which Amigas have been sold where and how many are considered classified.
That's the only real problem that we've encountered.
Clint <VRLI>
I'll add to what Betty said – CBM's actual _treatment_ of developers in
the developer program, by those in CATS (Commodore Amiga Technical
Support) ranges from very good to downright excellent.
CBM's _corporate_ treatment of developers seems to be something else
entirely. As I'm not at all happy with them at that level, I'll not go
further as it would get specific rather quickly – but technically, CATS
has been about as good as you can get.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I have no problem about specificity if you don't. I'm trying to get a
handle on things, because I want to write a well-reasoned and thorough and
complete letter that takes into account as many sides of the issues as I
can.
I understand about issues of privacy and such, so I can only suggest that
if they _are_ issues you might either tell me in non-specific ways, or
swear me to secrecy on the specifics or something. I don't know.
Paul
In the interest of Black Belt's future relations with CBM, this is laundry
I won't air in public. Sorry.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Oh. Well, I understand. Please, though, be involved in the letter and
discussion about it and so on, laundry or otherwise.
Paul
If I have something to contribute – such as my opinion of CATs, which I
already provided – I will.
It helps if you ask specific questions; as long as they don't infringe on
nondisclosure areas or put me in the position of specifically pointing
fingers, I'll be happy to help you.
One thing you might be interested to know is that I think we've got very
little time left during which CBM can continue to market the Amiga in the
manner it has been. In the last few months, I've seen a 486/25 "push over"
an Amiga 3000 on my wife's desk primarily in order to use two
applications: Quicken and Quattro Pro. Her comments now that she's been
using it a while are basically "better reliability and more features"
(under Windows).
You should understand that she's a dedicated Amiga-person and well aware
of the architectural advantages the Amiga has; she's also well aware that
the applications are not there, do not appear to ever be coming, that
CBM's track record is "dismal" (her word) and that her time is worth more
than CBM has paid in attention to her as a user.
Aside from Anne's opinions, I have my own; and I think that serious, even
critical mistakes have been made in the OS – specifically no VM, and gfx
retargetability getting a major back seat such that it's STILL not here –
which have resulted in applications crippling around when compared to how
similar apps operate on other machines. Another VERY bad mistake has been
the limitation of the release of the new OS (3.0) for 4000/1200 class
machines only – they've made certain that applications will be developed
much more slowly for the 3.0 release, which is a shame as it's a better
OS. But this is typical – same thing they did with 2.0; and yes, I'm sure
that 3.0 can run on "other" Amiga hardware.
The CDTV licensing fiasco is a recent example of a problem where CBM
misuderstands the developer resource-base; the raise in royalties stopped
three projects that I know of cold, and substantially changed the nature
of a fourth.
Where are the Amiga dealers? I went to Chicago a few weeks ago, none in
the phone book. Went to a Software ETC, 14 vertical shelf-racks of
dos/windows stuff, two shelf-racks of Mac stuff, no Amiga. Asked about it
– "We sent all our Amiga stuff to the ETC store in (suburb name, instantly
forgettable, too far to go for a visitor)." I lay the blame for this at
CBM's feet, and rampant mailorder discounting to a level where service
(dealer service) isn't practical at competitive prices – which CBM could
have controlled if they'd wanted to.
I said a month or so ago that it looked to me like the writing was on the
wall; I still think so. I can only hope that the 1200 will do something
special in the Amiga market… but I can't imagine how it could pull out
of the slump with only graphics as a professional application for the
machine, when windows machines are rising up with $149 24-bit gfx boards,
PhotoShop, etc.
Those are some of my concerns; if you can get CBM to listen to you by
sugar-coating them, feel free. Quote me or not, as you please.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
>and yes, I'm sure that 3.0 can run on "other" Amiga hardware.
I can back you up on that. I have seen 3.0 running on both an A2000 and an
A3000.
Pete Jones, Brussels, Belgium, flying on AutoPilot
It's hard for me to hope that you're not right.
I don't think sugar-coating will help either – I intend to be
straight-forward. Which isn't to say C= bashing, or that I won't offer
praise and thanks on certain issues, but I see no point in offering some
saccharine Hallmark message to them. They may not listen, but I think a
sober, cool-headed letter has a better chance of doing something.
Or so I hope.
Paul
You might know more about this than I would, so correct me if I'm wrong
(and for once I'm NOT being flippant), but it looks to me like Commodore
isn't interested in the "usual" PC market at all (business applications
like Quicken and Quattro Pro): With the development of the AGA chipset it
seems to me that they're only looking at the pro-video market for the 4000
and the Sega Genesis market with the 1200; and why would CBM — especially
at this late date, with all the battles they'd fought with Jay Miner and
crew — even WANT to say "Me Too" to the PC Industry, which is currently
so busy with throat-cutting in the marketplace that it isn't a safe bet to
be a dealer for ANYONE's product right now (largely because of the big New
York mail-order discount houses, who sell more PCs than anything else).
There's also a real good probability that Microsoft is hogging the PC-
software market right now: Why would Commodore want to pay Bill Gates
major moolah for "Windows Compatibility"? (And although I have but
passing familiarity with Windows — I've thrown it out of every computer
I've had to run "serious" applications on — I've never heard of Windows
doing any of the advanced tricks that Arexx lets us do.)
And, true, there's only one Chicago Amiga dealer (Software Plus, on the
NE corner of Lincoln & Peterson), and CBM (1-800-66-AMIGA) didn't know
where she was (maybe this is why the Amiga US sales staff got axed?); but
I found the store, and you could have too if you'd looked in the Yellow
Pages Consumer Book (were you looking in the YP Business Book by chance?).
The store often "looks like a teenager's room" (no Silo Superstore this),
but this is because Carol tries to carry a little bit of everything — and
her customers know this and we keep coming in to buy various Amiga tidbits
(including an astonishing assortment of Amiga-specific magazines) — and
so the store is more warehouse than showroom; but I'd rather see clutter
from someone who cares than a sparkling showroom run by idiots. (IMHO.)
And, besides, everybody makes mistakes: For software as excellent as
Lightwave 3D was supposed to be, I've heard it argued that NewTek "made a
serious mistake" in not offering it independently of the Toaster; well,
now, supposedly, NewTek is changing that policy: Maybe it's not too late
for Commodore to see the light?…
What's interesting to me is that Microsoft is (or maybe was by now, who
knows) a major software house for the Macintosh. And not windows stuff,
of course. But I bet, given that MicroSoft is in competition with Apple,
and given the way Gates yanked all software from the OS/2 market as soon
as he and IBM split, that he'll yank Mac software too, very soon. (Yank
as far as making new versions, anyway, although I hear support for old
OS/2 products is lousy at best.)
But it's possible to market a computer as something other than a clone and
still have software to do the kinds of things a clone does. I can only
afford one computer – I have a 1200, and I'm getting an accelerator. I'm
not a Sega-Genesis market-member, and given that I only have one computer,
I'd like it to be able to do as much for me as possible. Why should I
have to get _two_ computers – my Amiga, and then a Clone to take care of
other stuff? That is unreasonable, and that is why C= should push for a
larger market and more software – besides which there are plenty of people
who would love an Amiga if they had one, knew about them, etc. And larger
markets breed greater strength. Greater strength breeds more
developement. Etc.
Paul
Well, Ben only mentioned Quicken and Quattro PRO. I hear rumors that there is
a really nice spreadsheet coming soon. The poster, who claimed to be a heavy
user, said the Amiga will finally have a competitive spr spreadsheet.
I have heard good things about Phasar. I do not know how it competes with
Quicken. They guy in the next office to me got a 486 with Quicken. When I try
to run the tutorial, the machine crashes. (This is probably just badly
installed software. Still…)
Obviously, for business software the clones win hands down and always will. But
that does NOT mean we Amiga users are totally in the cold.
I'll be using my Amiga for a LONG time to come.
Cheers,
Jim Ventola
I hope a lot of people do. But keep me informed on this spreadsheet – I
could use a decent one. And what's Phasar?
Paul
Phasar is an accounting package, something like Quicken I guess. It is a
commercial product whose author continues to develop it. It has been highly
recommended to me by several users. I asked about software to track a stock
portfolio, for example, and Phasar was suggested. (I suppose if you know how to
use a spreadsheet such programs are less necessary? But Ben's wife uses both,
so that may not be true. I don't use this stuff myself being too poor…)
Jim,
I don't know if this is relevant or not, but…
I know of a few people who approached Intuit about porting Quicken to the
Amiga. A couple of them made an offer they couldn't refuse (yet, they
did). What was offered was to port Quicken to the Amiga for free — no
advances, no monetary outlay of any type — only the release of the source
code to the developer from which to base the port. Once the port was
completed and marketed the developer would be paid royalty on copies sold.
For most publishers this is an unheard of offer — they get a product for
sale for absolutely no capital outlay. Yet, Intuit declined.
About a year ago I was seriously contemplating doing a functional clone of
Quicken as a shareware program. When I mentioned this to CBM I was told
that an enhanced Quicken clone was only weeks away from release. At that
point I decided that there was no reason for me to spend hundreds of hours
to complete the project when a commercial program was only "weeks away".
Now, a year later, there is no Quicken clone and I've lost interest.
-sja
That's too bad that you have lost interest because I like your work and
believe the Amiga community could really benefit from a program like
Quicken. Phasar just does not cut it.
Oh well, I guess that is why I have an Amax II +.
P.S. If your interest is peaked again I am ready and willing to beta for
it!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . donovan . . .
I called Intuit and made it clear to them that our customers wanted the
product. They said they would take my name and number down and paas the
information on to marketing.
Alas, they are just like all of the rest of the PC software houses.
Steve, give me a program like Quicken, and I'll pay $79 for it.
Hey.. perhaps I oughta write it! 🙂
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
A Amiga version of Quicken would be GREAT!!!! If it could import and
export IBM Quicken data files, that would be perfect.
Richard -> via the Amiga 1000 AutoPilot
Partly to you, Steve, and partly to Paul:
"Intuit declined". Then is the problem with CBM or with developers?
The reason I bring this up is that recently at Software Plus I
overheard Carol explaining to a customer that some software writer (whose
name I didn't catch) "refuses to write for the Amiga"; one of her cohorts
suggested that the developer was "cutting his own throat"; and. like I
said then, "No, he's only cutting about 3% of his throat."
Obviously, houses that write for the PC-market can afford to ignore us:
Instead of writing a letter to CBM, maybe we _should_ be pushing at the
software houses (and maybe, because of our infinitely-Munchkin-like voice,
we will continue to be ignored).
I don't have a damn bit of use for Quicken, or any other filing-cabinet
-type software, but I _would_ support an effort to get developers like you
to write such things for the Amiga, and _not_ as "extrapolated-PC-clones".
What would it take to get _you_ interested?…
Yes, the usual chicken and egg. We have WordPerfect at the College and it
screws up on the 4000. Now WP Corp. has abandoned the Amiga. I feel like
going on MAC and PC boards and saying, "Look at how WP Corp treats its
customers–abandon them totally whenever it suits them. Watch out."
Luckily, we have plenty of great programmers. Pretty soon, we will have Linux
and a bunch of other stuff will also become available.
BTW–how "slow" would Quicken be on a 16 mhz A3000 under CrossPC?
How hard would it be to write Quicken in CANDO?
Yeah, actually Microsoft was under contract to Apple to develop the
Macintosh OS, and they kept pushing it back in order to work on Windows,
which is why Apple sued them (for the rest of you who may have wondered
why our own GUI, along with DesqView, wasn't dragged into the suit).
The reason I mentioned the Sega is that there are (estimated) nearly
six times as many Games-Consoles in homes as there are every type of PC
combined; Sega/Nintendo-type consoles wouldn't really be a bad market to
aim for, all things considered — and getting _that_ big a user-base would
have developers climbing over one another to produce software, don't you
think?
And if you _really_ need PC-compatibility, try buying CrossPC: It ain't
exactly blazing, speed-wise, but it _does_ work (although — being an XT-
emulator — it doesn't do Windows); I understand there's a PC-emulator up
on line here somewhere that's _supposed_ to be AT-compatible, which means
you might _push_ it into wiping glasses, but I don't know for certain.
The market thing I'm going to reply to a different message about….
I don't know what CBM is – or isn't – interested in. I can't tell from the
marketing activity, and they won't tell us either, so how can we know? I
*assume* they are interested in selling machines, in the general case. It
is my opinion that if they do not court the business market, the little
video niche they currently have is going to dry up and blow away. PC's are
coming online with superior displays for less money; construction tools
are there for sequencing, and high-end output is a service establishment
away.
Windows 3.1 has interapplications messaging; but until and unless NT is
released, ARexx-like easy scripting won't be there. Although you CAN get
ARexx for Windows 3.1… I dunno how friendly it can be under a system
that can't multitask for beans. :^)
The Yellow pages book was the one provided by the Hilton Suites; I beleive
it was business, but didn't do the looking – my wife did – so can't be
certain.
It may not be too late for CBM – but it doesn't look that way to me.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Arexx for Windows is probably beans. OS/2 has REXX built in, and
virtually no one uses it, no one is aware of it particularly (except for
simple batch-files) and few products support it. So I doubt it will be
used much. And NT doesn't have any Arexx-like thing either.
The only hope I see, video-wise, is for C= to come up with some sort of
amazing, cheap, high-quality business-video solution, NOW, and promote it
like hell. This is theoretically possible, but I bet it won't happen. Or
rather, I'd bet if anyone was stupid enough to bet against me.
Paul
Yep. UNfortunately.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
In addition to your other comments about OS2 REXX, you can add that it isn't
nearly as powerful as AREXX. File and string handling in particular are very
limited in OS2 REXX.
I'll take that bet, because CBM is on tour right now with Scala, going
to corporations like the one I work for and saying "You haven't seen
multimedia until you see this"; and the demos are blowing people away
(hearts fluttered where I work because they SPECIFICALLY demonstrated
InfoChannel 400, which on an A4000 is an under-$10K package that does the
VERY THING my employer is trying to do with a system THEY expect to sell
for a HUNDRED thousand dollars) — and in THIS regard they're attempting
to position themselves against Apple, NOT Microsoft.
Yeah, C= HAS an "amazing, cheap" etc, etc; the question is, Will Big
Business Buy It? (And will the companies that laugh it off find out what
GM found out when they laughed at Japan?)
They are not laughing at us, they are buying the product.
We are in the process of installing InfoChannel 400 w/A4000 systems into
Oceana Naval Airbase here in Virginia Beach VA. We are replacing a
pathetic PC based information system with an Amiga based solution. This
turn-key solution we call "WeatherVision 4000", will display base weather
to the fighter pilots in there ready rooms. Quite a feather in our cap!
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Ben,
I think that is Pauls intention, to get some specifics to put in this
letter, for their attention.
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====