#BlackBelt Fiasco
36 messages in this thread
If I had not purchased an A4000, which comes with an Amiga->VGA adaptor,
I would not have known that I could have used the HAM-E with a multisync
at all. I feel that both BlackBelt and Redmond Cable did not do their
homework before recommending such a setup, and the response to our
inquiries both before sending in the HAME and during its 'detention' at
BlackBelt were indifferent at best.
At this point I could not even tell you how to stamp a clip into the
primary buffer in a recent IP, nor am I familiar with the ins and outs of
using my other software with IP. This ordeal has made the HAM-E (which I
have owned for well over a year) worthless much of the time, and left me
feeling that I cannot get decent service from BlackBelt unless I stay on
the cutting edge of your product developments. But I have an A4000 now,
and even without considering the 'free' AdPro coming in the mail, I cannot
imagine why on earth I would ever upgrade to your ImageMaster product or
any other BlackBelt product. The money that comes from selling the HAM-E
will no doubt go elsewhere.
-Chris
I think you're being *very* unreasonable. You certainly have been
inconvenienced, but I think your reaction is extreme.
The HAM-E is a completely discontinued product. We no longer had the
personnel here to service it on a regular basis; and the fellow who used
to do the service is no longer available to us at all, because he is,
unfortunately, dead. It took us quite a while to replace him with someone
who would be useful in other ways, because (obviously) we can't keep
someone on staff just to fix the occasional HAM-E. It's just not
practical. As for our after-sales (and afetr discontinuation) software
support of the product, it is unquestionably the best in the Amiga market
– we've done more upgrades to IP after the HAM-E was discontinued than ANY
other Amiga manufacturer has made to a CURRENT product, even though it
CLEARLY cut into our sales (and advancement) of our current software line.
We even made it available free online. Seen any support from Impulse for
that speech input device? No. Seen any support from Centaur for the
ColorBurst? No. Seen any support from CBM for the memory slot on the 2630?
No. Seen any support for the MindLight from Visual Aural Animation? No.
Seen any support from AE for the sendfax? No. (and yes, we've produced
several upgrades for our fax software, too, after we stopped selling it).
Looks like our record here is not only good, it's uniquely good, and
perhaps even unprecedented.
The hardware support is a different issue, and yes, we got tied in a knot
over it for about 5 months. Yes, you had to wait for your HAM-E to come
back, and I'm sorry – really – but as with anything else, reality intrudes
where imaginary perfection leaves off – matters were truly out of our
control.
We never did say, or accept, that part of our role was to make your cables
for you; we said all along that it should work fine with a monitor that
had linear RGB inputs and the correct syncs to operate with the Amiga. Now
<continued>
that you've found out we were right, you're annoyed, I can't say I find
that a particularly rational response, but that's just me I guess. I also
find it silly that you blame us for anything Redmond Cable did or didn't
do.
As to why you'd want to use IM instead of AdPro, I can think of a number
of reasons, some of them extremely compelling – things like better image
quality, WYSIWYG operations, working in AGA modes instead of just viewing
images in them, a couple *hundred* operations you can't do in AdPro at
all, or, the way that ASDG counts operations (they claim that AdPro can do
"thousands" of image processing operations, which is laughable, but hey,
we can use the same Mad Ave technique and say…), you can do MILLIONS of
image processing operations using Imagemaster that AdPro simply cannot do
at all.
We've been a software only operation for a while now, and we clearly have
outpaced ASDG in the areas of image manipulation and morphing. And since
that's 2/3rds of what they do now, guess where that has already put them?
Last, that's where.
If you wish to choke your options off by limiting your image manipulation
to using only a product like AdPro2, that's entirely your right, of
course, and I wish you as much success as can be had with it. I just hate
to see you cut off your nose to spite your face. Even the lead that ASDG
had in scanners is about to be eliminated with the 9.24 release, which
includes FAR better scanner support than AdPro does, and at no extra cost.
IM already handles more file formats (IM provides 53 file operations
stock, AdPro2 provides 37 operations stock) and we're adding still more.
In fact, the only area where ASDG can provide you with anything we've NOT
done yet is in the two areas of device drivers for highend devices like
slide makers and so on. Perhaps that's important to you. It must be
important to someone, certainly.
Recently, because of some statements that pk made over on the Internet
(and in ads, and in faxes to dealers…), we had the pleasure of getting
<continued>
I am sorry to hear your HAM-E person passed away, and that you decided to
discontinue the HAM-E too soon, but that excuses BlackBelt neither from
detaining (and according to your receptionst, at one point misplacing) the
HAM-E for several months, nor from the fact that I bought the unit and got
into ths mess well before it was known that the HAM-E was discontinued.
You're weren't necessarily right at all about any monitor working as long
as it had the correct RGB inputs and sync. The HAM-E supposedly was
designed to match Amiga signal output, yet Commodore supplies a multisync
adaptor for a Amiga->multisync connection with their own products (such as
the A4000). It seems that BlackBelt made the faulty assumption that Amiga
and VGA signal characteristics are equivalent and allowed their customers
to chance it.
After my experience, I would have to be a masochist to do any further
business with BlackBelt. It does not suprprise me that you would start
with ImageMaster hype when faced with losing a sale, although I'm aware it
has more functions than AdPro (but that's free, remember, I won't be
buying AdPro.. it will be something else if necessary). The point is that
because of 'support' which in my case borders on the detrimental
(certainly none of it was beneficial), you have caused me to cancel what
would have been the logical, almost automatic, software upgrade from my
HAM-E to my A4000. A year ago, the HAM-E was your hot product receiving
the same kind of online advocacy and hype as you are providing ImageMaster
with now; Look at where it is now. At the prospect of me choosing AdPro
over ImageMaster you state: "I just hate to see you cut off your nose to
spite your face." This kind of arrogance is neither surprising nor
encouraging. And I've already stated, as a HAM-E owner who hasn't upgraded
to ImageMaster, how I feel I've been treated by your company. I've been
using the Amiga since '88 and have dealt with many vendors, but this
<continued>
fiasco takes the cake.
-Chris
Chris: I captured your message to Black Belt and just had a chance to read
your flame today so I thought I would throw in my comments, even if you
don't ask for them 8^) First off, not using that 23-15 pin MultiSync
adapter seemed to be your main problem. But do you really expect Black
Belt or anyone else to think that you were not using it? Black Belt
recommending that you purchase a HamE -> 1302 cable and switchbox from
Redmond was just to make sure you had the proper cables, etc. I don't
think you should expect them to know about every possible adapter you
should use, and you would have had if you had purchased a standard 1950
Amiga monitor. Having the proper adapters and using them is the
responsibility of the end user, IMHO. When I purchased my 3000 it came
with the 1950 monitor which had the proper adapter you were referring to
and so I knew then that I had to use it if I wanted to connect the 23pin
RGB output to a MultiSync monitor. But now you are trying to make it Black
Belt's fault for you not knowing enough about what proper adapters to use?
Ben has always maintained that the Ham-E was best used with a standard
1080/1084 series monitor and went so far as to recommend that you get one
for use on the Ham-E even if you did have a MultiSync. There were other
problems hooking up a Ham-E to a MultiSync other than switching
requirements, etc., so he just didn't like to recommend it. Some of us
were too cheap or didn't have the room for another monitor, so we made do
with the switchbox and made the adjustments to the Ham-E so that it would
look better for the multisync. It worked the first time I tried it and ran
faithfully for over 1 year of use until I bought my 4000. A friend of mine
now owns it and couldn't be happier. After I got the 4000, I went ahead
and purchased IM mainly because of the great support I had received from
Black Belt with Image Professional, and I knew that the company really
cared about it's customers. Maybe they could have done a little better in
<continued>
John,
If Ben (or anyone else at Blackbelt) had discouraged the use of
multisyncs, it was certainly lost on me. All of my inquiries assured me
that the HAM-E _would_ work fine as long as the monitor synched down to
15KHz. Months later, after repeatedly inquiring about the problem and
bringing up cable pinouts, shielding and whatnot, they (not I) suggested
that we try to alter the set of potentiometers which the manual states
should _not_ be adjusted by untrained persons without an oscilliscope! Not
once in all of this did they mention a VGA adaptor (and your remark about
"every possible adaptor" is hyperbole… most computer users are
accustomed to VGA and multisync monitors these days).
It's nice that you decided to get a 1950 with your 3000. However,
Commodore's monitors are typically not very nice to look at (if they work
right at all) and certainly don't compare to Trinitron (Sony) units. One
cannot expect an Amiga user to buy a Commodore monitor simply because it's
a Commodore; In the case of monitors, to suggest otherwise is
unreasonable. You were fortunate to happen to buy a monitor with such an
adaptor; However, I don't expect Sony (or anyone else) to ever start
supplying them with their monitors. The fact is that I had not seen or
heard of an Amiga->VGA adaptor until I bought my A4000.. Commodore did not
supply the adaptor with any of its computers until the A4000 because it
was unnecessary with ECS and earlier. It should be incumbent upon a
company like BlackBelt, knowing that a non-Commodore VGA/multisync monitor
is involved with their display device, that they should at least
_casually_ mention, in the middle of talking about RGB pinouts no less,
that a Commodore VGA adaptor is necessary.
"But do you really expect Black Belt or anyone else to think that you
were not using it?"
You better believe it!
The ball further falls in Blackbelt's court when you consider that A)
Redmond was going by Blackbelt's specs and that B) native modes of ECS and
<continued>
But, according to the notes in your file, we asked you *repeatedly* if you
were *sure* that your cable was wired correctly, and you told us "yes".
With that in mind, the other issues become suspect. However, since it was
nothing more than the CBM adaptor that fixed your problem(s), it turns out
that your problem was a miswired cable. There was no reason for us to
mention a "VGA Adaptor", all that is, is a wire-rerouter, which is
*exactly* the same thing as a speciality cable.
Guess whos fault a miswired cabnle is? Not ours!
Redmond produceds TONS of correct cables to "our specs" (which were
nothing more than a pinout which is EXACTLY the same as the Amiga's, by
the way) for not only HAM-E output but standard Amiga output. It's the
same thing that they do for a regular Amiga to VTGA monitor. Which is why
we assumed you had a properly wired cable.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
earlier chipsets for which the HAM-E was designed to work with work fine
on multisyncs _without_ using the adaptor, but neither the HAM-E nor AGA
work very well w/o the adaptor; However _Commodore_ took care to supply an
adaptor with the A4000.
It would seem that besides scan rates, Amiga video actually is
non-standard RGB. That argument that it is the users responsibility to
know of an adaptor when the only way of knowing was to purchase a
Commodore VGA monitor just doesn't hold up, especially when considering
that I was talking to an Amiga video display vendor which knew explicitly
that I was using a Sony (having told them we were going from a 1084 to a
Sony.. how could they assume we knew of such a connector??). Further, one
should never assume anything and fail to mention an adapter when
discussing the cable connections! To do such a thing is simply
unprofessional and reeks of carelessness.
-Chris
Chris,
Three points:
1.) The reason the adaptor came with the 4000 is that you could NOT
even use a 1950 or 1960 with it since the large RGB connector is the
(unlike the 3000) ONLY video out on a 4000.
2.) Since I have two of these in my "Connectors" draw (one from my 4000
and one from my 1950) I opened one up. Inside is a tiny pc board, one IC
(KS74HCTLS08N), and a capacitor. I'll leave it to the tech types to figure
what is going on, but there is definately more than just wires.
3.) Hundreds and hundreds of Amiga users are using a wide variety of
multisyncs with Redmon cables. So they must know what it takes to make the
conversion. Did you try the Redmon cable without the HAM-E to see if the
cable actually did work?
4.) I must add that I have had only exemplary support from Ben and
Black Belt. So IMHO if the ball was dropped in your case It only proves
that in all human activity mistakes can happen. I know that both Ben and
Black Belt put a high priority on maintaining the highest levels of
honorable customer relations. In fact I would be willing to bet that had
this dialog not started out in such a hostile a manor that Ben might have
sent you free copy of the latest version of IM for your trouble. I would
not be surprised if he STILL did it.
…AutoPilot Engaged…
-Paul-
Paul,
You were correct to ask Chris if he'd tried his Redmond cable connected to
the Amiga, not the HamE. I'd apparently been having the same problems as
Chris with my Sony 1302, but realized early on that the HamE wasn't the
source of the problem. Actually the problem seemed worse without the
HamE.
I'd tried two different custom cables from Redmond trying to correct the
vrummy output, with no luck. Most of my work isn't video related, I used
my Flicker Fixer output most of the time anyway, so I decided to just live
with things until reading this thread about the VGA adapter made by
Commodore. Until then I believed my Amiga's output through the RGB port
was just somehow defective.
The adapter fixed the problem for me too, and for what its worth, my
dealer was at a loss trying to help too. They were just as surprised as I
to the solution to the problem. Perhaps it was just TOO obvious. I guess
we all trusted Redmond to make cables that worked properly. It just goes
to show that there's still a lot of "voodoo" involved in computing and we
shouldn't go around blaming Black Belt, or Redmond, or Commodore, or the
dealer because nobody knows it all, and everyone I'd talked to had
genuinely tried to help. Instead of pointing the finger we should be eager
to share solutions when we find them.
Just my two cents, and my HamE sure gives beautiful output now.
Roger C. Van Duyn // on AutoPilot
Thanks for your input, Roger – I appreciate it a great deal. We do try!
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
getting the Ham-E recalibrated and returned in a more timely matter, but
then again, it wouldn't have needed recalibration if you used the proper
adapter in the first place. So after all of this, my thoughts are that you
are the one who is mainly at fault. We often hate to admit this, but a lot
of times the users are the ones who create their own problems. I still
think that IM is one of the best image processing programs in the Amiga
market, and hope you will take time to re-evalute your position.
Thanks, John. I think he's made the right decision, for whatever reasons.
I appreciate your support, however.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ok, Chris – good luck with your future activities. Sounds like you're
doing the best thing for all involved.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Chris- I'm sorry you have such a bad feeling in your dealings with
BlackBelt.
It is much different than my personal experience involving the Ham-E.
HOwever I am not using a multi-sync monitor, so I have no point of
reference to share.
Michael
about 50 new Imagemaster customers – a fair number of which are now
EX-AdPro users. We've got quite a few very telling testamonial
letters saying why; since you're now apparently going to be using
ASDG's product, I believe that the only thing that might *keep* you
using it is if you're telling the exact truth when you say you've
forgotten how to use IP. Because if you even remember a fraction of
what it can do, you're in for a nasty surprise with AdPro2.
Good luck with whatever you do, anyway.
While I'm not an "EX-Adpro" user I am a IM user too.I use them Both
Extensively and when I actually have a few $$$ will be getting ImageFX as
well.Unfortunatley the IRS has put the Kabosh on me for Taxes from 1990
so I shan't be buying any goodies for a while till I pay them.Too bad they
don't accept Credit Cards hehehehehehehe.
Well, as painful as it is, remember they DO pave the roads for you to
drive on (to use to go to stores to buy Amiga stuff…)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Hehehee Ben I don't Drive.I have a Liscence but here in NY I take my
"Chauffer" known as the NYC Transit Authority,who I just happen to work
for so I ride free.The Taxes thing was sorta my fault.I had sent my tax
forms out to the IRS THEN recieved a W2 from a previouse employer who had
just mailed me a few months previously a check for nice piece of change
which was from my Profit Sharing Account.
NY Transit Authority? Really! Guess what, I've got a subway map tacked up
on the back of my office door. Spent many, many hours as a child staring
down the tunnels on the "A" train between 168th/Broadway and the 42nd
street complex. In fact, I used to go down there, change to the AA uptown,
and head for the M of natural history the long way around, because I loved
the subway so much.
I'm still looking for N-gauge subway cars circa 1960's; when and if I ever
find them, I plan to build an extensive subway setup. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben:
If/when you setup your subway, is it going to be complete with N gauge
muggers, graffiti, trash, etc? 🙂
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Graffiti, most assuredly – I have about 50 photos of the sides of subway
cars, and several different plots for reproducing the markings… won't be
easy, but it'll be fun!
Trash, probably no t- in N gauge, trash is prohibitively small.
Muggers, no. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
You should scan in those photos and morph up a moving subway thru a tunnel.
Great screen saver <g>.
Gotta get the subway cars, first. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Somebody might have a subway car around here. Unfortunately since it isn't
exactly your 'thing' – moving the car would be a good job for 3-D. Putting
the images on would be a good job of IM.
Ben:
No muggers??? oh well, so much for realism! I suppose you could always
makeup some virtual muggers.
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Ben, (et al),
Boy, this is weird. I don't have any trains, haven't for 30 years, and the
last two days (since last I've been on CIS!) I've been thinking that what
I want next is to do an N gauge NYC subway layout!
…twilight zone refrain…Da Da Da dah, Da Da Da dah…
Jan
ps Scott Anthony, author of ArtExpression, started that program to draw
scale drawings for his (incomplete) N gauge layout…
Now there's an interesting bit of trivia! <grin>
Let me know if you find any subway cars. I don't think anyone makes them,
right now (or in the past).
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Sorry Ben,No more Graffiti on Subway Cars.Any news on IM 9.24?
Mike—>>>
One Quick thing,of all the "FUN" things you mentioned about Ben's
Subway the only one we No longer have here in NY is the Graffatti on the
Subway Cars.Thats a BIG Priority to NYCTA Brass for some odd reason.The
Stations still get slammed with Graffitti but the newer Cars are Graffiti
Proof.Where the Paint/Ink doesn't Stick well so it is EASY to wash off.
Any Cars that are FOUND to have Graffiti on them are taken out of service
by the Car Appearance Supervisors at the end of a run.
Peter:
Does that mean that there are none of the old cars running anymore? When I
lived in NY (about 12 years ago) there were basically 2 types of subway
car, the 'new' ones (the ones that looked similiar to the LIRR cars), and
the 'old' ones, the ones usually that had the graffitti on them.
Personally I thought that some of the cars actually looked better with the
graffitti on them than without. (the ones with the whole car painted by
some graffitti artist, not the random graffitti most of them had)
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike they are still using some of the older Cars inc;luding the R-10's and
R-17 and R-26's but They were all Completely overhauled and painted RED
for the most part.
I can vouch for Peter on this one: NYC Trains are clean as a whistle. Some
stations are also looking great. I doubt it'll ever become standard, but
it sure is an improvement! Here's another thing: the buses follow their
schedule!
Mig
Ben,so your an EX NYer eh?If I see any N Gauge Trains of R9's or Low V's
I'll let ya know(I believe these are the Cars from the 60's but since I
was BORN in the 60's I'm not 100% sure)
Used to live on 179th street, off Amsterdam Ave.
Appreciate the note on the subway cars. Actually, I'd take the later
electrics, too, and be just as happy with them.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot