#Video Machine vs Toaster
26 messages in this thread
We're considering upgrade of our editing facilities from Toaster 2.0 to the
Fast Video Machine. Have there been any discussions hereabouts amongst folks
who have used both and/or upgraded? Any archived threads we should look up?
William B. ( BILL ) McCormick
Reality Television Group
PMFJI –
Just thought you should know that there is a powerup program for the Toaster
2.0 to Toaster 4.0 with the NLE software. You'll need to add the Flyer ($5000)
and a pair of hard drives ($1200 – 3800 each) and you'll have a Beta SP quality
NLE system. The upgrade is $1495, but it expires April 28th.
Hank
Videology, Inc Where service is our product
< Reality Television Group >
<< Just thought you should know that there is a powerup program for the
Toaster 2.0 to Toaster 4.0 with the NLE software. You'll need to add the Flyer
($5000) and a pair of hard drives ($1200 – 3800 each) and you'll have a Beta SP
quality NLE system. The upgrade is $1495, but it expires April 28th.>>
Right, ON, Hank. It was the availability of the upgrade to Toaster 4.0 that
put us in the frame of mind to move to NLE at this time. People we've talked
with who handle both Toaster and Fast Video Machine appear to be very impressed
with what the Video MachineLite has to offer in terms of long range
upgradeability and extensibility. Two video production houses we know
cancelled their orders for Toaster 4.0 in favor of Video Machine installations
which appear to offer far better capabilities as well as the ability to run on
far less costly PC systems.
Do you use or sell either of these systems? What is your opinion on the long
range suitability of investment in either of these systems for LE/NLE use?
William B. McCormick
Reality Television Group
Hi William –
We've had extensive experience with the NewTek Toaster system, and only short
demo time working with the Fast. The review in the current DV magazine had the
Fast with a rating of 7.1 for interface and ease-of-use due to it's lack of
integration, but a top-rating of 84 for its quality. The major system
difference between the two is apparent in Fast's lack of an integrated CG,
paint, special effects and 3D system. Many dealers are showing the Fast as the
frontend for the Pinnacle Aladdin (a $10,000 DVE board with superb DVE controls
and output).
The Toaster/Flyer system, based on its 3.9 prerelease version, scored poorly on
ease-of-use and interface at 6.4, but equally high, 82, on quality. However,
the initial reaction to the Flyer, anticipating completion of the system and
incorporation of better editing control, was "For simple editing, the Flyer's
interface is an absolute delight to use. . . For now, however, the Flyer is
simply not ready."
We are patiently awaiting the completion of the initial release of Video
Toaster/Flyer 4.0 and the list of planned functionality of release 4.1 and
plug-in's that will further compliment the system.
In the review, the Fast system, without the Alladin, cost $35,000, while the
Flyer was priced at $18,000.
As usual, there is no clear decision making specs.
Hank
Videology, Inc Where service is our product
< Reality Television Group >
Thanks for your input. We're still muttering and still reviewing and
researching–but you've been most helpful.
William B. McCormick
Reality Television Group
Would like to have your feedback and reasons for the final decision if you can.
It will give us a perspective from a buyer's/user's point.
TIA
Hank
Videology, Inc Where service is our business with
P.O.M.P. under all circumstances
< Reality Television >
<< Would like to have your feedback and reasons for the final decision if you
can. It will give us a perspective from a buyer's/user's point. >>
We'll be happy to share our decision making process– the first step
of which is to continuing using Toaster 2.0 until we can get a better
handle on where we want to be 1 to 3 years out. We've now seen the
Fast Video Machine video and in use. We like it, but the real
problem is that we want to store our video productions in digital
format for conversion into assorted linear formats down fthe road.
The disk and tape storage requirements are overwhelming to say the
least.
We're shooting HI8 and editing in 3/4 inch at the moment, so we're more than a
little confused with all of the empheasis on S-VHS. Anymore, there's just too
many formats and options in this business….
Thanks for your input, Hank.
William B. McCormick
Reality Television
Bill –
I think the emphasis on SVHS and Hi8 is growing with the increased quality of
NLE. Since it requires less than one generation to create a file master and a
master for the client, the generational loss, and tape wear during regular
analog editing, are reduced to almost nothing.
Here you can shoot on Hi8, digitize to the hard drives, edit the production
with many variations, watching each change immediately and, of course, making
more edit changes, and then create the master from the digital image. The
quality is so good, that it is a true online edit and it's easy to create
several masters by just hitting play again.
We just got a new update to the Flyer, the earlier version considered one of
the two best NLE systems for image quality. The new version has higher quality
yet again.
Every time I edit with a customer on our Toaster/Flyer system they are amazed
at the quality, blown away by the speed of simple editing, and find themselves
making one-frame changes to get it just right alot. Since the feedback is so
fast, the creative energy doesn't get dissipated by waiting for the machine.
Enough – Be glad to help, and am certainly interested in your findings and
decisions.
Good Luck
Hank
Videology, Inc Where service is our business with
P.O.M.P. under all circumstances
Henry,
Hope you do not mind me jumping in.
I just finished a tape using my cannon a-1 and sony evs-7000. It amazes me the
color loss from the master to the 1st generation. It is not so bad from the
evs-7000 to the VHS final. I do not think I am doing anything wrong.
My tapes will average 30 minutes when complete and I hope to do many
of them. What price or what all do you suggest to get me started
with a digital system. I was considering tape to tape but I hate to
see that color go so quick and I will always end up with a third
generation.
I do have a DX2/66 with 16 meg.
Thanks,
Jorge (AES)
You may want to wait to see the PeeCee Toaster. It would offer the option to
even "tape" in digital, if you know what I mean.
Zeddock Miller
Jorge –
Considering that the Toaster for Windows won't be available until July'95, and
the word here is pretty good for Fast, I would consider looking at the
VideoMachine. We are considering it as a PC option, but Gary Bettan carries it
now at the Electonic Mailbox.
One consideration, however, is the color loss creating that master. Have you
tried putting a TBC with proc-amp controls in line. It always seems to give
better dupes when just going deck to deck, so it should also improve the
quality of the master when editing.
Hank
Videology, Inc Where service is our product
Thank you, I will check into the TBC. It sounds like a good place to start and
something that will always be useful.
Jorge.
Henry, I'm curious as to what made the Fast system so expensive. What
components were they using. Was it the DPR or the linear system. If the DPR,
what kind and how many drives were being used and priced. The main reason for
asking is that I have the Fast Video Machine (linear system) and have spent
nowhere that amount of money on the complete setup, which includes a 486/66
computer, monitor, 3 decks w/monitors, tape deck and cd rom. Just curious.
Lynn
Emerich Video Service
Lynn –
Good question. Could you give me a detailed list or your configuration, and
I'll reread the article and post the specs back at you. Let's see if we can
justify the price.
I know it was the NLE system, so that's a start.
Hank
Videology, Inc Where service is our business with
P.O.M.P. under all circumstances
Henry, I use the full VM version, a 486/66 computer w/SVHS monitor, 2 AG1960
players and an AG1970 recorder – each with it own monitor. I have a CD player
installed in the computer and a Sony RX606ES tape deck. I use a TASCAM mixer
and separate equalizer when necessary. I use AG455 cameras. Total cost new
was was 11 to 12k. The computer has 8 meg ram and 2 540 meg WD hard drives.
Still not close to your figure. Was that price on the DDPR system with several
big hd's? Just curious.
Lynn
The Fast system tested in the DV article included the DPR and two 2GB Seagate
drives for full NLE editing. They indicated that the VM boards and software
totaled $15,295, with the whole system costing $35,495. This would require
$20,200 for the computer and drives. Since the 2GB Quantum's I sell go for less
than $2000 each (that's $4000) I to wonder how the DV system reached the
$35,495 figure. Maybe a letter to the editor is in order.
Hank
Videology, Inc Where service is our business with
P.O.M.P. under all circumstances
Henry:
Sorry, but that sounds like a Toaster bias to me. The $35,000 system
that Charlie White reviewed for DV was a rack-mountable, turnkey
system including computer, monitors, studio control box, 9GB storage,
jog shuttle, sound card, cables, and that illusive CG , in addtition
the board set. The board set for the VM with DP/R is about $13,000.
There's a YUV option, which I'm sure Charlie had, that adds another
$3000-4000. YUV is something you don't have with Flyer. Am I wrong
or does it still take a third party to even get Y/C? D2 is a
composite format. VM is also a includes a A/B roll, linear, machine
control capability that doesn't exist with Flyer.
I also have to agree with Charlie that the crouton editing interface
severly cripples serious editing work; poor audio control, no L-cuts,
no preview on small groups of edits, no trimming edits, etc.
As you know I used to work for Fast, so I guess I'm open to bias claims too. I
do not work for them now and still see VM as a superior product. I may be
wrong but I suspect the Flyer will sell well to Toaster owners. It's hard to
see much penetration into new markets, even with the PC version.
One other thing: I've kept myself from writing about this here for two weeks,
but now I'm on the subject of NewTek… I was quite discouraged by NewTek's
tact on Sunday before. I think they made some strategic mistakes that suggest
they're no longer focused on the big picture. I have been saying for years
that this industry is young and in a communal growth phase. Negativity isn't
healthy for a company nor the industry. I think NewTek showed they had some
internal work to do before they spend money on external issues. I welcome a
response from any one from NewTek.
Jeff Sauer
Jeff
I am curious what strategic mistakes or "lack of big picture" thinking you feel
characterizes NewTek's recent actions.
Michael:
NewTek had a press conference Sunday before NAB that I missed
attending another press conference. I did attend their
"public/customer conference" later the same day. Since it was for
the public, I guess I shouldn't feel too bad writing about it…
There were a couple discouraging aspects. First, they introduced a
new President who introduces himself as a lawyer and says he's in
charge (visions of Al Haig, but make your own opinion about that). He
proceeds to tell this room full of Toaster enthusiasts that he knows
there have been some real problems with the Flyer, he knows it's not
ready and he's 'not going to let it happen anymore.' He's in control
and he'll make things right. IMHO the mood was quite negative to a
crowd of people expecting to hear the latest greatest stuff from
popular NewTek.
Next Tim Jenison tries to demo the new PC Toaster with very regretable
results. OK, trade show… prototype… things do go wrong at times
for all companies. That's a technical problem not a strategic one.
This NewTek event was to start at 5:00 at Caesar's. At 7:00 at Caesar's, the
company, Play Inc. made up of ex-NewTek people Kiki Stockhammer, Mark Randall,
Paul Montgomery, etc., was scheduled to debut their new product, Trinity.
Well, no surprize that NewTek doesn't start until almost 6:30. But at 7:00,
while Tim is up on stage trying his demo, Penn Gillette (of Penn & Teller)
jumps up in the very center of this room of a couple thousand people and yells
"Tim, STOP, Tim it's 7:00, it's time to go to Play… Laser tag. Yes, that's
right. NewTek is going to pay for everyone here to play laser tag. There are
buses out front waiting. There's food there for everyone. Let's go."
IMHO:
1) All of that crowd knew NewTek and few knew about Play. NewTek made the
mistake of introducing the competition. And by trying to keep people away, the
curiousity was heighten.
2) As a perceived industry leader it's a mistake to acknowledge or compare
oneself to a lesser known. That can almost never work.
3) There is clearly some bad blood left from the split. BUT, NewTek let their
emotions dictate their business decisions. Their focus seems to be hurting the
Play "defectors" and not taking care of business.
4) This industry is still small enough, and growing quickly enough, that
companies will do well if the industry does well. There is no valid reason at
this time for a company to be aggressively negative about another industry
company.
5) From Tim's demo it looks as though they may have better things to spend
money on than on 1) – 4).
Again, IMHO.
Jeff Sauer
< Reality Television >
Seems you weren't very impressed with NewTek's public meeting. Needless to
say, the NAB activities must give considerable heart to the Germans ( FAST
ELECTRONICS ) who appear to fully understand where the market is headed.
Anybody know a successful technology company headed by an ex-lawyer?
Bill McCormick
Reality Television
Jeff,
Thanks for your perceptions. I do hope – being the frustrated but hopeful owner
of the Flyer – that they will get their act together. They have improved their
act considerably since NAB, at least , in terms of communicating with people on
CompuServe and getting out their next release.
Michael
After I read this note I cant say anything but huh ?? Why is Play
introduceing a product in the same room with the competion I dont
know.. Was Trinity any good did anybody see it??
A company run by a lawyer saying hes going to get a engineering
comany on track turns me off instantly. I am an engineer and have
worked for companies that have ruined by Buissness Men who thought we
were makeing baskets. It takes someone who understands, has vision,
believes and has deep pockets to run a high tech company. Look at
Saturn a company that brought GM back into line run by engineers who
dont look at the bottom line every time they look at the car.
>> he knows there have been some real problems with the Flyer I have
read messages in the Amiga vendor forum that seem to say the same
thing.
>>Next Tim Jenison tries to demo the new PC Toaster with very
regretable results. People seemed so excited about this product I
thought it was close to completion. I was getting ready to spend time
investigateing it for purchase. Tradeing in my current gear (until
now) and going for the new technology. I am getting real tired of
ghost products that are released buggy for big bucks. (Think I've
been to to many marketing things of late)
From all this I am now more intrested in Play than NewTek. I must
admit I know nothing of there product line except for a video capture
board called the Snappy. I am wondering if I can even afford there
line. Oh well Anyone with info on Trinity??? Bob from The Design
Shop..
> Anyone with info on Trinity???
I've seen some discussion … and noted that it's anticipated the product
will not be shipping until Nov or Dec 95.
-jts
Hi Jeff –
What I would like to do is compare notes on the editing process, for
all NLE systems. Some require rendering, some have integrated CG and
paint, some have three level (A/B/C) input, etc and it would be nice
to create a "manual" that describes the process for each machine for
a comparison. I certainly know that the feedback Newtek is getting on
the storyboard approach is truly mixed, but overall negative. For
serious editing, you must be able to control volume, etc over the
length of audio, do split edits easitly, etc. and the timeline seems
to be the best interface.
I would be glad to see us develope a "job" and see how each system we
can access would do it, from start to finish, including the digitize
process. I think we would have a truly meaningful document that would
allow a fair comparision based on one's usage, not opinion that we
get from the mags.
What do you think? The first thing is to define the "job".
Hank
Videology, Inc Where service is our business with
P.O.M.P. under all circumstances
Hank:
Sounds like a great idea! Since we're both in New England we ought to get
together some time. Do you have a "job" idea that would cover some of the
various aspects of editing?
It turns out that next week we'll be finishing a review of Media 100, Avid MSP,
Radius Telecast (with Radius Edit), and Targa 2000 with Premiere. Those
systems are all in house at the moment. If you'd be able to bring a Flyer up,
we might get some real results.
Jeff Sauer
Desktop Video Group
Jeff –
Our posts are crossing. You bet! Have anyone in the area with the Turbo or
Video Cube, EMC, DVision or others? This could be a real NLE expo.
Hank
Videology, Inc Where service is our business with
P.O.M.P. under all circumstances