CDTV Wows CES!
46 messages in this thread
So where's all the discussion of CDTV? I was at the press conference at
CES last night, and expected this place to be bubbling with excitement. Am
I going to be forced to spill the beans?
John, wearing his new CDTV t-shirt… 🙂
Spill it, John!
What's CDTV? Compact Disk Television seems unlikely. Umm, "Continual
Delays of Toaster Video"?
Guess I'd better stop,
Karl
Nope, it's Compact Disk Television! Commodore announced a new box at the
Consumer Electronic Show, at a wonderful press conference held Sunday night
in the Wrigley Building along the riverfront in Chicago. Imagine a
stackable audio CD player, in a black plastic and metal box. That's
*exactly* what it looks like. Except you look at the back, and it's got a
very familiar set of DB connectors. It's got a TV-style remote control,
plus accessories like a disk drive, a keyboard, a cordless mouse, a
cordless joystick. But I'm getting ahead of myself; this is a *consumer*
device, which is going to be sold in time for the end-of-year buying
season, for "less than $1000." It plays audio CDs, it plays CD+G disks,
it's ISO-9660 CD ROM with AmigaDOS file structure. Essentially, it's an
Amiga 500 with a MIDI port, plus the CD ROM drive. It's going to come
bundled with several CDs, including a world atlas, a recipe book, an
encyclopedia – but that's not clear and/or nailed down at this point, as to
which titles will be included. I know I want one or two!
John,
Interesting!
So they're targeting an application, instead of general computing with
this one, eh? Nice idea, but I wonder how it fits in with the 500C and
500P. Do I understand that the CD-ROM portion of it could be used as a
device hooked up to other Amigas? Does it include enough memory to support
games that might be released in CD format?
(Still feeling around for what the market would be like for this)
Karl
P.S. So, how WAS the reaction of the crowd to this doo-dad?
I'm sure one of the first CDs will be the "Obscure European Games Disk".
🙂 It has one meg of memory, and probably no expansion port ala the
A500's side, but it does have some kind of expansion port, but it wasn't
clear what it contained.
Reaction? It wasn't shown to the public, which seemed strange to me,
considered that they want people like CES showgoers to be selling it at
Christmas time. They announced to the press, and demo'd it to anyone who
was smart enough to be asked into the back rooms of the CBM booth. They
had four of them back there, one showed a world atlas program, one showed a
recipe book, one a game, and one an audio application, playing Beatles
songs with the words on the screen, fed through a karaoke device that
stripped out the vocals so you could sing along.
One smart guy I know insisted that the industry should really wait before
mass-marketing consumer CD computers, thinking that the first device that
wasn't MPEG (an upcoming great compression chipset for video) would become
a non-standard. At the press conference, Nolan Bushnell said he looked
forward to MPEG's finalization, so they could add it to the Amiga/CDTV
design. 🙂
I think many people wondered what the application disks will be. I think
these will carry or doom the machine from the start. Unless the consumer
thinks they're getting $xxx dollars of value from the start, when they take
it home, they might not buy it. Also, that they aren't getting a dead-end
product.
John,
Judging from your reaction to CDTV, you must never have seen a demo of
CD-I, which has been worked on for the last 4 years. Same exact concept,
only with Sony, Philips, Hitachi, Matsushita, and dozens of others for
backing.
The industrial CD-I players are already shipping, and it's only pure luck
that CBM is going to be able to get away with their claim of being the
"first consumer-oriented" multitasking audio-video home box…. the CD-I
home units were due out in 1988 but were delayed for various reasons,
including finally catching up to DVI by now adding realtime fullscreen
video decompression. They're now due in mid-1991. In any event, for CBM to
claim credit for this "revolutionary" idea is total ad hype/bunk. I myself
used a CD-I player in Sept, 1988.
I do agree that this kind of device is really neat. But you are not alone
in wondering if it will take off…. this has been debated for years in the
CD-I/CDROM community. Obviously CBM went with the pro arguments <grin>. I
would also suspect that they've approached quite a few CD-I developers to
port their apps over. Otherwise I think talk of a 100 titles by year's end
would be rather over-optimistic.
So the question is: when it comes down next year to CBM vs
rest-of-the-world (CD-I), will the early CDTV buyers feel that they went
with the wrong horse?
No, I've seen the demos of CD-I. Except I've never seen it in a real black
consumer-style box, and I've never heard of the development system prices,
and I've never known people who were developing software for it. 🙂
Think of it this way: it's a great repackaging of Amiga technology. I
remain skeptical of whether the applications that will be made will be
interesting enough to drive the machine's sales. As for the number of
titles, I'm afraid it's a good-news/bad-news proposition. The good news
is, it's not expensive to make CDs, but the bad news is, it's not expensive
to make CDs. So I'm sure we'll see some good titles that took a reasonable
amount of effort to make, and some cheap titles that took three days to
make. I also look forward to Amiga-driven versions of existing PC and Mac
titles. Depending on how the data is formatted, it may be easy to convert
these existing databases and applications.
Don't misinterpret my reaction. I'm skeptical, but pleased at what they've
done. It's certainly more interesting than the Amiga 2500.
Here's a good question…what OS will it be running? AmigaDos 2.0?? Or
some kind of special CD-TV thingie?
Steve
I assume it's whatever A500s will be running later this year. They didn't
really demo that aspect of it. I did wiggle a cordless mouse on a regular
WB on one box, though.
Med files can be eight track but not necessarily. Med files can be
converted to mod fairly easily…
-Jonathan
->Med files can be
->converted to mod fairly easily…
How, how!?!
Toby, Az
You have to have the Amiga program OctaMed which can play, creat, and edit
eight voice Meds and Mods.
-Jonathan
if you have a CD-ROM drive, look for a copy of "The Ultimate MOD
Collection," which includes something like 3,000 MOD files plus players
for various platforms. It's about $25. But check to make sure a Mac can
read this disk before considering a buy. Safe Harbor mail order in
Waukesha, Wis., is one place that sells this.
— Ron Legro from Milwaukee via AUTOPILOT
(The only way to fly)
Thanks a mil' Ron.
Toby Sanchez
I agree; it _is_ a great repackaging of current Amiga technology.
My main concern still is: if a consumer had to choose between a "Commodore"
player which is incompatible with anything else, and a "Sony" or "Philips"
or "Hitachi" player…all compatible… which would they pick? Again tho,
we'll have to wait and see.
Re:CD-I. I've used the home players with their remote control
pad/thumbstick. Originally the disc unit and computer unit were separate
stackable boxes; for the consumer version they'll be one piece. The units I
used were stacked on the optional expansion box, also: with two 3.5"
drives, extra memory, SCSI interface, keyboard port, and I think serial/par
ports. And of course the gfx capabilities of CD-I make Amigas look like
C64s in comparison… so another question is: will CBM upgrade their video
technology to match?
As for developers, there's been Electronic Arts, Spinnaker, Sun, and…
somewhere around here I have a list of at least 2 dozen companies… altho
there are far more than that. Some have dropped out, some others have come
on board.
I do hope an enormous amount of effort goes into the first CDTV titles. The
appeal to (and satisfaction of) the first buyers may determine quick
acceptance. CD-I developers have this as rule #1. Nobody knows yet of
course just how well this market will do. I'm just glad I don't personally
have money riding on any of this stuff <grin>. 1991 will be an interesting
year!
PS to lurkers: AmigaTech forum has a huge thread on this also.
But those other companies don't have players out at this time, in the
consumer marketplace, unless I've been sleeping under a rock for the past
year. I think CBM will get this box out. At first, I said to myself, but
does the Amiga display really cut it for something like this? Then someone
wise pointed out to me: Who cares? If it makes a TV picture, it's great.
then Bushnell pointed out in his speech, if you asked someone on the street
"What's wrong with TV today?", they don't answer "low resolution". They
say content, more likely. CDTV can at least bring interactive content to
consumers, if nothing else, it's a great video game box, and $60 CDs of 100
games will look mighty attractive compared to some $50 Nintendo cart.
Aye, if it makes a TV picture, it's great. Philips was worried enough
about adding realtime fullscreen video tho, that they delayed CD-I's intro
for at least a half-year, in order to add that capability.
That was even tho a lot of people were nervously defending CD-I's lack of
it as "not something the common consumer would care about". Perhaps.
Content quality I agree with. Can you imagine the quality of the games
you'd get on a "$60 CD with 100 games"? 😉 If anything, I think we'll
see more like one great game per disc.
Now if they bring out an interactive encyclopedia disc right off the bat,
they could grab many people that way. Tandy is trying this now (more $$ tho
by far) with their new PC/CDROM machine. Get those into schools and CBM
would have a good foothold at first.
After reading your enthusiastic defense of CD-I, I wonder about a few
things: You are into CD-I because CD-RTOS is something like OS-9, right?
And there is a machine code / OS standard for these CDs? Most importantly,
when can we seriously expect to see consumer CD-I machines? Bushnell
pointed out that CD-I has been "eighteen months away" for about five years
now, and even called on a person in the audience who said they were a CD-I
developer and darned tired of waiting for it to ship. I immediately
recognized that the person was a "ringer" in the sense that Nolan probably
had planned to call them out from the very start, to emphasize this point.
It was a virtual certainty that at least one journalist present would ask
him to compare this to CD-I. Bushnell knows how to work a crowd. One thing
about him, he reminded me of drug czar William Bennett, in that he kept
mantioning the way this machine would carry a demo CD that would contain
lectures about drug abuse.
John,
Thanks for more info.
Again, does it look like the CD-ROM part of it could be removed and used
on any Amiga, or is it an integral part of the setup?
Karl
I would guess that if not that, there would be a seperate CD ROM unit for
the Amiga itself. How else would anyone be able to do applications for the
thing?
–>Steve Bennett
What is really needed is a machie that allows you to play music and access
the CD ROM simultaniously.
:::wonder how it fits in with the 500C and 500P
It's designed to be non-competitive with the 500's. Different price
(higher), different features (no kybd, or disk drive included; CD-ROM
instead), different perceived purpose. It's intended to be perceived as a
high-end CD player that is also a video education and entertainment system.
The fact that you can buy the stuff you need to turn it into an Amiga
computer is great, but not its initial biggest selling point, since many of
its buyers will probably be people who, for one reason or another, don't
consider themselves likely candidates for buying a computer. It's a way of
'sneaking one in' on them.
:::Do I understand that the CD-ROM portion of it could be used as a device
hooked up to other Amigas?
I don't think so. I think they'll have a separate CD-ROM accesory available
for AMiga owners which will give it the same capabilities, but I don't
think this particular unit can act as anything but a self-contained system.
:::Does it include enough memory…
1 meg chip RAM. I don't think you can put any more (of any kind) in. It
also has 512k ROM (most of WorkBench 1.3 I think) which will let that meg
go farther, though. It also has little (32k?) storage cartridges for saving
info, like your location in a game. ===Scott
Scott,
Thanks for the reply. Sounds like an interesting product, indeed. Here's
hoping that a scad of applications will appear for it quickly, and that it
won't get clobbered by the shifting standards of our time.
Karl
This is the most excited I've seen you in a while! 🙂 🙂
What kind of demo did they give?
steve
In many ways, yes, I fell for it. I already knew what it was, but I was
impressed with CBM's presentation of it. It looks like a CD player, it
looks like a stereo component, and I thought maybe just maybe now is the
time for such an appliance. Consumers are accustomed to connecting a
computer-like device to their TVs ala Atari 2600 and Nintendo, and CDs are
commonplace, and I've always agreed that people are tired of buying $1000
easily antiquated encyclopedias for their kids.
Apparently, one of the big Japanese companies thinks so, too. One of them
showed a handheld CD ROM player – little B/W LCD screen, plays 3 1/2 inch
CD ROMs, should sell for less than $300.
John,
I believe that was Sony — if not, then someone else with the same idea
as Sony. They've announced a handheld "electronic book". They've got
agreements will the Japanese publishing industry to provide all new books
to be published in this format. They're arranging US publisher's
cooperation before shipping the unit here. A television set can also be
used as a display device with the unit.
-sja
Steve:
It looks like The HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy's idea (electronic book,
updated via radio reciever-modem) might not be as far off as when Douglas
Adams wrote the series!!
-Mike Schiller
CIS: 76416,3065
That handheld gizmo…isn't that the Sony Diskman? I read about that in
the paper last week.
Steve
Steve –
Yah, the Sony Discman. There was also a Compton's Encyclopedia contained in
a paperback-sized unit shown at CES. Supposed to have all 20,000 entries,
and will retail for $299. From the same guys who put the Bible on a
handheld last year (Franklin's Electronic Publishers?).
kev
From what I understand, the demos were running under 1.3 !! Jim
Hi James,
No doubt I'll be corrected but to the best of my knowledge all of the
standard MIDI "sync" boxes on the market convert the various SMPTE time
codes to MIDI time code.
I have a commercial recording studio which is sync'ed up using SMPTE. I am
however thinking of adding video editing facilities to the studio so may
come across the same problem. When you find the solution I'd be interested
to learn it.
Greg
There is a hard way to solve that problem . You could use what they call the
monoral track of you VCR . You have to ask the service person of your choice to
choice to modify your VCR except if yours can do playing monoral when you
record video and stereo . I have modified my SONY HIFI Recorder to do that and
it works fine for me . Maybe not all VCR can be modified like that but mine is
ok . I hope this may give ideas to you . Marcel Jacques Quebec city .
Marcel,
My RCA Hi-Fi stereo VCR has stereo linear or edge tracks, with Audio
Dub and Video Dub built in. The linear track(s) do not have to be mono.
With Audio Dub, I can dub onto the stereo linear tracks without disturbing
the Hi-Fi audio and video. With Video Dub I can dub video and/or Hi-Fi
stereo during the helical scan without disturbing the linear stereo
tracks. Of course, just dubbing video will also erase any previous Hi-Fi
audio and just dubbing Hi-Fi audio will also erase any previous video. The
point is that you can record Hi-Fi audio and stereo linear audio
separately from each other. I thought you might like to know that some
decks can do this without the need for a modification.
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
I am glad to learn that but because I already own one I had to modify it. Could
you give me your RCA or anything else model # that does support that du dubbing
feature for futur reference . Thanks Marcel Jacques from Quebec city .
Thanks for the info Jacques.
Quebec city …. My wife is a soloist and there have just been some
enquiries for a tour of Canada. The orchestra in Quebec has asked if she
will do a concerto with them.
BTW do you know of any specific pieces of equipment that will convert VITC
into SMPTE or MTC?
Thanks,
Greg
Ok what is exactly VITC ? ( Video stuf ????) I know SMPTE or MTC but not realy
the other one but I am not sure if the company that makes Syncpro may build
some of those new stuff . Sorry I dont know more about that . Marcel
On the other hand, I do agree that it's going to fly or die based on what
people can develop for it, and develop for it *fast*. The demos might have
been rigged. 🙂 They were certainly playing from CD, but that doesn't
mean much. I suspect they were created in AmigaVision, on a big hard disk,
then the hard disk image was copied to CD. But that's not *really*
cheating, that's how these CDs will be mastered and manufactured. Of
course, you're free to use whatever AmigaDOS applications you want to
create your CD application. I don't think they were full applications, in
other words. They had demo modes that flickered the CD light and changed
the picture on the screen, and the mouse pointer could be moved, but…
The audio demo was truly interactive and real, though. You could click on
buttons and jump to new songs, etc.
I talked with one person who's interface AmigaVision to his
computer-controlled laser disk player. He has the Dragon's Lair laser
disk, from the arcade game. He is in the process of using AmigaVision to
re-create the video game! He insists the response time is *better* than
the original. 🙂 He's using AmigaVision to program the proper sequences
of animation, based on joystick input.
John:
The real question is if they're planning on unbundling the CD-ROM drive
(and controller) from it for use on A500's & 2000's??
-Mike Schiller
CIS: 76416,3065
Yes, they said they would. No price given, but it's not hard to do. Many
of these are SCSI devices.
John:
Gee, does that mean that we're in the same situation as we are with Tape
backup? (that is the player won't work with other companies SCSI host
adapters?)
-Mike Schiller
CIS: 76416,3065
:::Essentially, it's an Amiga 500 with a MIDI port, plus the CD ROM drive.
Are you sure about the MIDI port? I don't recall seeing anything about
that.
Also, officially, I think the CD in CDTV stands for Commodore Dynamic.
===Scott
I was surprised about it, too, but someone in the booth told me it had one.
I looked at the connector on the back, and it wasn't the real MIDI-style
5-pin DIN, but it was a circular DIN connector. Unless MIDI equipment has
switched to a smaller connector, I didn't see a real MIDI connector either.
(I used to write pro MIDI software for the PC, so I know what they look
like… or at least what they used to look like. 🙂
You use to write MIDI software for the PCs?? Well…get with it boy. You
could be makin a fortune in Amiga MIDI software!! 🙂
Well, spill da beans! Inquiring minds want to know! 🙂
Steve
John,
Please – tell us more!!!!
……Betty