#glassfra
27 messages in this thread
I have been trying to model a faceted clear glass object and haven't been able
to get the facet reflecting effect of individual facets or model realistically
looking through glass onto interior facets. My question therfore is:
Will future versions of 3DS have in the materials editor a provision to state
the refractive index of a material? It seems to me that this feature would make
MUCH easier the design of glass objects and translusent materials. Couple this
with ray tracing and it seems to me my problems would be solved.
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Daniel, You are talking exclusively about ray tracing, not the ability to
couple the renderer with ray tracing. Refraction itself implies ray tracing.
Ther has been a lot of talk recently about ray tracing engines for 3DS, though
I myself am not too excited about them. IMHO, the ray tracers that will be
available are not going to be able to touch the rendering quality of the 3DS
renderer. They just can't. Take a look at POV. While it does Ray trace it pales
in comparison as far as color and AA go. Besides, they'll be SLOOOOWWWW…. Not
what production animation is all about….
Dave Mennenoh
In one of those moods….
PMJI, but:
<< Daniel, You are talking exclusively about ray tracing, not the ability to
couple the renderer with ray tracing. >>
Actually, the best renderers available selectively combine scanline & ray-trace
techniques.
<< IMHO, the ray tracers that will be available are not going to be able to
touch the rendering quality of the 3DS renderer. They just can't. >>
What do you mean by this ? …i.e., the RT's that are *_ going to be
available_*, or RT renderers in general ? If the latter, I disagree.
While I've made supportive statements re scanline renderers here before,
personally, I'd prefer a selective RT utilizing a great scanline package as
well – it's there if/when you need it.
BILL
Bill, Thanks for the reply and info. regarding different renderers. I agree
with you on the ability to selectively raytrace. This would be a great benefit
actually and I would love to see it implemented within 3DS. Enough of that. I
hope I thanked you for your very gracious upload of the .JPG's of water
caustics for me. They were great – just what I needed. I used Apro to combine
them into a .FLC instead of using an .IFL – no different I guess, but it seemed
easy enough. Talk to ya later.
Dave Mennenoh
You could use the water maps ? Great. You're welcome.
BILL
Yet another plug for the RXP!! (Renderer eXternal Process: Plug-in shader for
the Mat. Editor.)
— James — MAP —
Daniel,
<< Will future versions of 3DS have in the materials editor a provision to
state the refractive index of a material? >>
Autodesk does not discuss future product features or shipdates.
jonas[adesk]
Daniel, you could try the Place Hilight command with dedicated lights, along
with playing with the size and shape of the specular hilight in your "glass"
material.
With a little fiddling, you should be able to get an acceptable "facet hilight"
effect.
Hope this kelps,
-Alan Iglesias
Hi I just had to put my two cents in. What about ray traced object exclude just
like with shadows. If you wanted an object closer to the camera veiw ray traced
you just choose which object you want ray traced. Then with shadows have an
option to render the during or after sceen rendering. If you choose to render
the shadows after you could render them in an alpha channel and compose the
main rendering with the alpha shadows. This would be cool. Also is camera map
projection. To simulate different kind of lense and optical effects.
Mike White [SDP]
I agree that those are cool ideas, Mike. Good wish list stuff.
Incidently, I've been looking at your routines and they seem to be pretty cool
too! Probably be using some of them in production soon.
-Alan
Thans it will be nice to see them in production, to let you know our routines
are based on Ray traces texh.. Which are a new kind of SXP.
Mike White [SDP]
>>Will future versions of 3DS have in
>>the materials editor a provision to
>>state the refractive index of a material?
>>It seems to me that this feature would
>>make MUCH easier the design of glass
>>objects and translusent materials.
>>Couple this with ray tracing and it
>>seems to me my problems would be solved.
For animations, usually the frame time for raytracing is too high. For single
frame work it can be pretty useful, though. You can raytrace an object right
now by translating it to PoV or Vivid (two widely available raytracers) format
with 3DS2POV. You have to rebuild some of your textures, though. Render time
can be pretty long, depending on the scene. Something with lots of reflection
and refraction in it could take maybe 8 hours on a 486/66. They do look pretty
incredible, though.
I think there may be a workaround that would be pretty effective in 3DS,
though. I've seen mention of creating a flic from the refracting objects point
of view, and then mapping that to it mirrored (or something like that, not
sure). What I would try is creating a cubic environment map and reversing the
side assignments. Then use that as a reflection map for the semi-transparent
material assigned to the refractive object.
The new Topas uses an interesting trick. They create a cubic environment map
around the refracting object, and when the eye ray hits the refracting object,
they bend it with the specified IOR into the environment map and use that
color. It's not raytracing, but in an animation, it would still look pretty
great.
Jim
Hey Jim, Sorry I was a little on edge last week when I responded to your
message about "hair". It jsut seemed you missed my point and that's fine. I
have never even tried to do real hair as it would be just too much work. The
point I was making is that rapture would most likely work in cases where you
didn't need to be up close and personal. Oh well, I'm sure you can relate to
being a little edgy while replying to messages at 2am.
Dave Mennenoh
>>well, I'm sure you can relate to being a little edgy while
Hello, David. Thanks for your nice letter. Sure, I can relate.
Don't know if we'll find a middle ground on this "IXP-for-hair-effect"
situation. I've done extensive work with all the currently available image
processors (both IXPs and batch processed Gallery effects/Kai's Power Tools,
etc) and never seen a process that could avoid a "flat" look in an animated 3D
scene. If the renderer could send some of the scene info to the IXP, maybe it
would be possible. However, as it stands, using alpha to use the effect on a
single object would have a 'rubber-stamp' effect in the course of an animation.
Stills might look ok, especially with a little hand-retouching in Photostyler.
I'll recant immediately if/when you can show me a video with IXP'd in hair that
looks 3D… <G>
BTW, I do get on the system every other day or so. Also, I read the whole
thread before I replied. When I saw the general consensus of the thread leaning
toward the conclusion that an IXP could do a passable 3D fur object, I felt I
had to put in a word, and I picked your letter to reply to. Didn't mean to
offend….
Regards,
Jim
> I'll recant immediately if/when you can show me a video with IXP'd in hair >
that looks 3D… <G>
Doubt you'll be recanting anytime soon Jim. Obviously you've done a lot more
work than I have in this area and hopefully you'll figure out something that
works better than the currently available options. Well I'm glad I didn't
offend you, you must have a good sense of humour – a good thing in this area.
Thanks for the reply.
Dave Mennenoh
I saw the Metrolight "JuJu Shampoo" video again today (with a bunch of other
folks) and 4 of the people in the room refused to believe that the long,
lustrous, silky hair in the video wasn't real. I think it's the best fake I've
ever seen.
– G
Gary,
>> room refused to believe that the long, lustrous, silky hair in the video
wasn't real. <<
Slight deviation from the subject, but have you seen the latest stuff from
Acclaim? It's a sequence from a game in progress called "Alien Trilogy", I
believe. It was shown at Summer CES and I saw a camcorded tape taken off the
tradeshow monitor. It just blew me away again! These guys must have the best
(proprietary) motion capture facility in the world. It's a cinematic sequence
of about 4 space marines getting into a serious "disagreement" with the Alien
we've all come to know and fear. Their system seems to capture every nuance of
human motion, unlike any other system I've seen. I believe it's a 4 camera
infra-red system, but may be wrong (wouldn't be the first time <g>).
I haven't seen Acclaim's newest work yet, but I'm looking forward to seeing it
at Siggraph. Those guys are the BEST at biomechanics.
– G
Gary,
>> but I'm looking forward to seeing it at Siggraph. <<
Well, they've outdone themselves again. Up until now I hadn't thought computer
generated actors (synthespians) could convincingly replace real ones (except in
distance shots). Now, I think they could. Many people at the show were
convinced it was a clip from the actual "Aliens" movie??!
Give it another 3 years before you won't be able to tell if the video that
you're watching on the evening NEWS isn't simulated.
A very very scary thought. We're going to have to have some very firm laws
regulating the use of simulated imagery.
Think about it (and shudder).
– G
<< Give it another 3 years before you won't be able to tell if the video that
you're watching on the evening NEWS isn't simulated. >>
What do you mean 3 years ? I personally know the team that renders Dan Rather
every night.
(bizzare rumors are better than flaming, right ?)
BILL
G
>>>Give it another 3 years before you won't be able to tell if the video that
you're watching on the evening NEWS isn't simulated.<<<
Oh my GAWD!!! You mean….Bill and Hillary are REAL!!!! ARRRRRRGGGGGG!
Murph'
We'll never be able to legislate media illusion. Either our perceptions will
alter to keep up with the media, or our reality will alter to adapt to the
perceptions.
– J
Gary,
>> Give it another 3 years before you won't be able to tell if the video that
you're watching on the evening NEWS isn't simulated. <<
I think that's why the Acclaim stuff makes me somewhat uneasy. I have
uncomfortable feelings about how this could be misused, but I'm still excited
about the possibilities.
>…"JuJu Shampoo"<
What is this? I suspect it's a demo clip & not on TV or anywhere someone could
easily see it. Yes, no, maybe so?
It's a piece done by Metrolight Studios in LA, and was shown in the Film &
Video Show (Electronic Theater) at Siggraph/Anaheim '93. I think it's on
Siggraph's VHS copy of the ET, and that tape is available from ACM Siggraph (I
don't have the number, but I'm sure someone on the forum does).
– G
Thanks. I'm gonna make sure I go to this year's ET; probably be combs going
thru the hair this year <g>.