#Johnny Mnemomic review
62 messages in this thread
Everyone:
I just had the pleasure of seeing a preview of the new movie "Johnny Mnemonic"
at the Sony studios last night, and think that this will be a big breakthrough
for 3D Studio getting the respect it deserves in Hollywood for creating big
feature films.
The effects were done very well, and are extremely impressive!
Between this and "Virtuosity" coming out later this summer, this 1-2 punch will
wake up the big studios!
Greg Pyros
Hey Greg,
Although I will still go, just to see the 3D stuff, the critics here
in New York and Connecticut are ripping this movie a new *#$ Hole.
Only 11/2 stars and "lousiest excuse for a movie" reviews.
Lee
>>> Although I will still go, just to see the 3D stuff, the critics here in New
York and Connecticut are ripping this movie a new *#$ Hole. Only 11/2 stars and
"lousiest excuse for a movie" reviews.<<<
It doesn't look like a good movie. Action, violence, and explosions. Yawn. The
3D stuff looks great, but it won't make the movie. Sorta like Lawnmower Man.
Sorry but perhaps (IMHO) then, the critics are wrong again. I happened
to like Lawnmower Man and I enjoy Keanu Reeves acting.
Lee
You hit the nail on the head!
Judy
Lee:
>> Although I will still go, just to see the 3D stuff, the critics here in
>> New York and Connecticut are ripping this movie a new *#$ Hole. Only 11/2
>> stars and "lousiest excuse for a movie" reviews.
I was very careful not to comment on the movie plot itself (I leave that to
Siskel & Ebert), what I was thrilled to see was the full-screen 3D Studio
effects. They are the breakthrough, I don't care what the rest of the movie
was up to! :^)
Greg Pyros
Regardless of how lame the overall film might be, it's going to be a huge
thrill for me to see how our renderer looks on the silver screen, projected in
35mm with photons instead of electrons.
Throughout the last ten years, developing 3D animation software, my single
largest dream has been to produce a renderer capable of the color richness and
detail quality necessary for film. I think that (sometime this weekend), my
dream is going to come true.
– G
Gary:
>> it's going to be a huge thrill for me to see how our renderer looks on the
>> silver screen, projected in 35mm with photons instead of electrons.
It is by far the best part of the movie! You'll love it!
Greg Pyros
<<I think that (sometime this weekend), my dream is going to come true.>>
Congratulations Gary and the "crew". It must be a truely satisfying experience
to see your dreams come to fruition, and like many others in this forum we have
the Yost Group to thank for bring making OUR dreams a reality. Thanks.
As each dream becomes a reality we have to dream anew and set new goals. So
after seeing your baby on the silver screen what's your next big wish?
DaviD "Lucid dreaming" GouID
There's no doubt that my next big wish is to manifest r5.
– G
PM,
Just saw Mnemonic, And was wondering just which scenes were 3DS because Alias
and SGI were mentioned for rendering support in the credits? I was just
curious as to what was done with 3DS and at what resolution etc. I saw a thing
on Virtuosity and Cyber Lab 7 and I am Looking forward to it as well.
Congratulations!
Jeff – N-Image Alabama ….
All of the work in the first third of the film was done with 3DS. This includes
both of the internet calls (to Newark and Bejing)… about 5-6 minutes total.
(You'll see all this stuff on our Siggraph reel this year, so it'll be clear as
to exactly what was done with 3DS then.)
The work was rendered at about 1200 horizontal lines and blown up on the way
out to the 35mm film recorder.
– G
Thanks for the reply- I thought the Internet calls were a cool part and am
glad to hear that they were 3ds. Only 1200 lines, huh? Was the new SGI
renderer used or just the PC version?
Thanks
Jeff- N-IMAGE Alabama…..
Just the PC version was used. (Note that Sony can get away with 1200 lines
(and even less) of horizontal res because they use a method of Gaussian
interoplation to blow up the image on the way to the film recorder. All major
recording-to-film houses (including Kodak's Cinesite) now do this. In many
cases, you don't have to render over 1K horiz, and I've heard of D1 res
(720×486) looking GREAT using certain new proprietary methods available in LA.)
– G
Thanks for the info about the blow up methods.
Jeff
N-IMAGE Alabama….
Actually we have rendered stuff at 1k for 35 millimeter via a Solitaire and it
looks wonderful.
Jim Alabiso
No Bones Productions
Atlanta, GA
Gary,
I saw the advanced screening and the CG was pretty impressive, although I'm too
polite to say what I thought of the acting, and I did like the book. Dolph
Lundgren was probably the most appealing character as the assassin priest.
Kudos to Brumbaer, the Sony animator, who was largely responsible for the
excellent colour and lighting. Most of the rest of the crew has left Sony
though. Interestingly, many of the Alias animation crew are/were big time 3ds
users.
I believe Virtuosity will be a more appealing film from the standpoint of the
actors involved. A great leading man (Denzel Washington) who can deliver a mean
line or two, and a very charismatic villain (newcomer Russell Crowe). I don't
think the CGI will be quite as impressive since it is more low-key work, IOW
film-resolution effects only occupying a portion of the frame rather its
entirety OR video resolution backgrounds for compositing with bluescreen shots
of the actors. There is certainly a great deal of quantity of 3ds effects,
possibly 10-15 minutes, but lots of it is composited atop live action. On the
positive side this does allow you to render at full 2k resolution with no
interpolation required, because your objects only take up part of the frame.
Now all I need is for somebody to right a 10-bit (or higher) file format .bxp
for film. Any volunteers???
Martin
Martin,
>>Now all I need is for somebody to right a 10-bit (or higher) file format
bxp for film. Any volunteers??? <<
I don't see why we would need a .bxp for this. Doesn't 3DS already render at 64
bit internally even though it saves off at 32 (24+8) ? Betcha Garys' got an
undocumented magic word somewhere for your 3DS.set file that would let you save
those 48 bit color 16 bit alpha deep pictures !
Of course, you'd then need a .bxp to translate into 10 bit log Cineon
colorspace format.
Bruce N. Goren
Bruce,
>> Of course, you'd then need a .bxp to translate into 10 bit log Cineon
colorspace format. <<
quite right. Clearly some custom code would be required at some stage.
Apparently Sony already this capability but it's unlikely they'd give it to me,
since I'm a competitor <g>. We have an in-house software development team which
might be able to help me, who knows. I have to deliver a shot on film by July
5th.
Martin:
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
Dolph Lundgren was probably the most appealing character as the assassin
priest. __________________________________________________________________
I couldn't get Burt Lancaster doing Moses out of my mind when Dolph was on
screen. I nominate the best supporting actor award to the actor who played
Jones. <G>
Bob
Bob,
>> I nominate the best supporting actor award to the actor who played Jones.
<G> <<
it'd be quite amusing if an animatronic creature like Jones won that award <g>.
Well… FrankF at Sony has an IXP that saves the image data at 12bpp, and I
know that Martin Doudoroff had started to work on one (at some point last
year). It's incredibly brain-damaged simple code to write… you just need a
spec for a specific file format. We wouldn't made it a native capability, but
there's actually no standard in that area yet.
Note that DarrelA did a bunch of Alias work for JM, but he's back using 3DS
exclusively — he just finished a killer shot for the Siggraph tape.
– G
Gary,
>> It's incredibly brain-damaged simple code to write… you just need a spec
for a specific file format. <<
I see. Maybe I can get the cineon file formats and talk the programmers into
whipping up something. I wonder if it could be done with the TSE ixp. In which
case I could try it. I'll have a look through the docs.
Gary:
Caught Johnny Mnemonic this weekend, they must have really cleaned up Newark to
get it to look that good! <G>. My unbiased friends thought the computer
graphics were great, the combo of the music and the incredibly fast "jacking
in" speed of the animation caused a collective "WHOA!" We always sit up front
and I highly suggest this for anyone who hasn't yet checked this movie out.
"Bladerunner" was what we ended up comparing it to.
I caught some of the credits, enough to see a familiar name or two like Darrell
Anderson and Gene Bodio.
Please keep on dreaming, the tangible results are inspiring.
Bob
Bob
I saw the original computer images for the Alias work a while back and the
lighting, detail, and grunge(sp?) were great. Lot's of depth. It will be
interesting to see how it translates to the big screen.
The scene with the multiple transparent plates rising up was very interesting,
but I'm glad I didn't have to render it<G>.
Aren't you supposed to be getting married!?
TedB
-Ted Boardman
!^NavFont01F0007MGHHH3A5AB1
Ted:
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
Aren't you supposed to be getting married!?
__________________________________________________________________
September 9, on the beach in lovely Avon-By-The-Sea, N.J.
Angela says "hi"
Bob
I saw it last night (late show), and we extremely happy with the way the 3DS
work turned out. I just wanted to see more! (OK… I can wait until Siggraph
for that…)
Note about the credits… Alias & SGI got credited because they donated a huge
amount of hardware to get the rendering done in exchange for a credit (in
addition to some politics regarding Canadian funding). I would've liked to
have seen some equal time there.
– G
>> Note about the credits… Alias & SGI got credited because they donated a
huge amount of hardware to get the rendering done in exchange for a credit
(in addition to some politics regarding Canadian funding). I would've liked
to have seen some equal time there. <<
This is no suprise… I would like to know what percentage of SGI hardware
and software was free/_deeply_ discounted so that people would use it. Take
Wing Commander III, for example….
It would be interesting to know the real average $/seat for an SGI/Alias
workstation…
(( # installed seats * $$$ per seat ) – freebies – discounts ) / inst. base
– Dan / n-Space, Inc.
Gary,
I'm glad that you'll be able to get the Johnny Mnemonic sequences for
the demo reel – then I'll get to see them. I backed out of our invite to the
Sony screening due to the violence (in the movie, not the audience). Sent
Peter instead.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Kevin:
>> I backed out of our invite to the Sony screening due to the violence
>> (in the movie, not the audience).
But most of the violence waas in the audience! You should have seen Martin
Foster and Joe Munkeby battle over the buffet – ice cream all over the place!
Thought I was a goner! :^)
Greg Pyros
Gentleman, we been doing 35 mm film for over a year now watching your renderer
produce those rich colors on the silver the screen. Currently we are working on
our 3rd movie trailer for Warner Brothers Cinemas in the U.K. There have been
times we have really had to push it to make 3DS make the grade, like for
instance object deformation/transformation along a path over time, (please!!!)
other than that we've been real happy!
Jim Alabiso
President
No Bones Productions
Atlanta, GA
Jim… Have you submitted anything for our Siggraph reel this year? I'd love to
see the WB Cinemas trailers you've done…
– G
Greg,
<< Between this [Johnny Mnemonic] and "Virtuosity" coming out later this
summer, this 1-2 punch will wake up the big studios! >>
What about the stuff you are doing for Fair Game?
Mark
Mark:
>> What about the stuff you are doing for Fair Game?
We didn't get to do full-screen stuff like "JohnnyM" and "Virtuosity" (yet)!
Greg Pyros
Only if the movie is a success – if it is a flop no-one will care how the
graphics were done and how great they are!
It is like the game industry – Critical Path had great graphics but was a flop
so no one carried about the graphics. AITD1 (Alone in the Dark 1) has terrible
graphics – but is a great game. Bane of the Cosmic FOrge has poor EGA graphics
– but the game is still popular today.
It is content that counts! Not the pretty picture!
Judy
For the record…….
The stuff for Johnny was rendered at 965x667x1.0, and then "rezed up" to 2k
for the film out (I know 'cause I was there at the time). By the way we (BLUR)
just saw a demo of E-FILM's rescaling technique, and let me tell you, it was
outstanding, 720×486 to film was great looking, and the 1k to film was
virtually identicle to work done at 2k the whole way. We're going to recommend
it for all the film effects we do. Why spend time moving data around when you
could put that same tim (i.e. money) into the visuals.
Tim Miller
BLUR
> Tim Miller BLUR <
Congrats, BTW. I saw your name in the credits along with a few others I
recognized.
— James — Choreo Motion —
>if it is a flop no-one will care how the graphics were done and how great they
are!<
But they will care about how much it cost to produce compared to what was done.
But I agree, content is most important.
JNJ
It will be management and backers that care about production costs – and if
it's a flop they will care even more so – if it's a mega-bucks hit they won't
care about costs.
Judy
> It is content that counts! Not the pretty picture! <
In the eyes of the critics, both Lawnmower Man and Jurassic Park were only
semi-fruitful plots, yet the accomplishments of these (and others) have paved
the way for CG use in a big way. IMHO, any producer worth his salt will see
the components of the film and recognize the parts that worked.
Also, it's the folks at the effects studios who ultimately decide how an effect
will be created. And these folks are looking at just the effects and not the
story (except for how well the two integrate).
As for Johnny Mnemonic . . .
I look at action films like comic books -very entertaining with little cerebral
activity required. I don't expect (or necessarily want) and action film to
have the depth of Dead Poets Society. So, in my book Johnny Menonic was a good
film.
But, the 3DS work was obviosly my biggest motivation for seeing it. And I must
say that I was floored — massively impressed. BTW, what is your opinion of
the effects work?
— James — Choreo Motion —
James,
When you think of the balance of elements that have to be right for a
project like a movie, it's
a miracle that more than ONE or TWO have ever been made!!
<<<<I look at action films like comic books -very entertaining with little
cerebral activity required. I don't expect (or necessarily want) and action
film to have the depth of Dead Poets Society. So, in my book Johnny Menonic
was a good film.>>>>>>
Great Attitude!
I always take away SOMETHING from "most" action films!! "Something"
can be writers' intent, great clothes, action stunts…..something!! ( I'm
still trying to project something into ANY of the Van Dam movies. Even though
it's wierd to see him "bonk" someone else upside the head w/ his foot I still
can't shake the image of Van Dam w/ Silicon Pectoral implants!!)(G)
There ARE films where things come together well for some reason as in
"The Boat", "Seven Samari", "Road Warior"………….These are hard to find so
you have to keep digging! Gary
I noticed that among critics, its the "in" thing to bash movies with great
graphics: T2, Lawnmower Man, Jurassic Park, Johnny Mnemonic, etc. Not one of
these films recieved good reviews on content, yet some of them produced
top-notch box-office results.
Apparently I'm not the only one who goes to movies for reasons other than a
"profound philosophical experience". <g>
— James — Choreo Motion —
I really like special effects works – and I thought the Jurassic Park effects
were great. Lawnmower Man/ Johnny M. are just too much "junk" for me to waste
my time on.
FOr my money the best special effects still come out of Industrial Light and
Magic. No-one is even close when it comes to an ILM special effects.
Judy
Judy,
>> Lawnmower Man/ Johnny M. are just too much "junk" for me to waste my time
on. <<
harsh words, indeed. I've seen both and I think (effects aside) Lawnmower Man
was a cut above JohnnyM. IHMO, it had more appealing actors, better direction,
and a better story (although it went downhill badly towards the end). I find I
can watch it over and over just for the chimp.
You watch "Lawnmower Man" over and over?
– J
Jack,
>> You watch "Lawnmower Man" over and over? <<
well, I've probably seen it 4 times since it came out. Is that sick, or what
<g>.
You need help, Martin — you've been staring at the screen too long. Time for a
deep dive, or maybe some skydiving, or something. <g>
– J
>FOr my money the best special effects still come out of Industrial Light and
Magic. No-one is even close when it comes to an ILM special effects.<
I agree.
JNJ
> FOr my money the best special effects still come out of Industrial Light and
Magic. <
I don't know. It costs a lot more than $4.00 for a nine-hole round of golf,
and I sometimes think I would end up happier had I went to the movies! I think
its was worth $4.00 and 2.5 hours of my time to see what's being done by the
best in the business. I suppose it's a matter of personal interests.
Your point is well taken on the power-for-the-dollar of ILM effects. I would
pay hundreds, maybe thousands, just to be allowed to sit quietly behind an ILM
CG effects person and watch them (and bring them fresh coffee). 🙂
— James — Choreo Motion —
>> Your point is well taken on the power-for-the-dollar of ILM effects. I
would pay hundreds, maybe thousands, just to be allowed to sit quietly
behind an ILM CG effects person and watch them (and bring them fresh
coffee). 🙂 <<
Ok, that's it! =:-) I have had just about enough of this "put ILM on a
pedestal" stuff! ILM does some fantastic stuff, true. But let us not forget
the other companies out their that don't have the bucks to force-feed
themselves to the public: PDI, Rhythm and Hues, Blue Sky, Angel Studios, Boss
Film Studios, Santa Barbara Studios, PIXAR…. the list goes on and on.
Again, I am not knocking ILM, but I bet your money would be just as well
spent to sit behind anyone at any of these companies.
Content-wise, I think that some of the shorts I've seen from R&H, PIXAR, and
PDI are head and shoulders above some of ILM's feature-length stuff.
– Dan / n-Space, Inc.
IMO, ILM has the best film effects, with great integration into the story, and
have always been a (the?) leader in film effects. Compositing, morphing, 3D
characters, etc.
Pixar made some killer Listerine commercials, with a great attention to detail,
and a fun look. I've been impressed with PDI/R&H/etc. but nothing they've done
stands out as much as ILM in my mind. Star Wars, ET, T2, Jurassic, Casper,
etc.
I don't doubt the abilities of the "smaller" studios to create various stuff as
great, or greater than ILM, but their limited resources haven't allowed them to
put their efforts into the very large projects. Casper had 43 minutes of CGI,
and from what I've seen in previews, it fits perfectly into the story. Feature
films are pretty different than shorts. I'd have fun working at any of them,
just take them out of the smog and off fault lines. 😉
JNJ
Wait until you see Pixar/Disney's "Toy Story" later this year. I'm sure that
it'll place Pixar firmly at the top of the CGI heap.
– G
>Wait until you see Pixar/Disney's "Toy Story" later this year. I'm sure that
it'll place Pixar firmly at the top of the CGI heap.<
Can't wait. Pixar's done some great stuff, good to see them get into bigger
stories. 100% CGI?
JNJ
I'm not sure how much live-action is in it, but it's (at least) predominately
CGI. I've heard from a number of folks that I highly respect about it, and
they say that it's light years beyond anything that's ever been done with
computers before.
– G
>they say that it's light years beyond anything that's ever been done with
computers before. <
Sounds like R5. 😉 Where's my time machine when I need it? The next few
months are gonna be the death of me.
JNJ
They have been working on that for quite a long time, haven't they? I thought I
remember an announcement two or three years ago they were going to make cgi
movie.
> Ok, that's it! =:-) I have had just about enough of this "put ILM on a
pedestal" stuff! <
>PDI, Rhythm and Hues, Blue Sky, Angel Studios, Boss Film Studios, Santa
Barbara Studios, PIXAR…. the list goes on and on. <
ILM is just one place I'd love to learn at. My feelings are the same for most
of the above companies!!
— James — Choreo Motion —
—>Ok, that's it! =:-) I have had just about enough of this "put ILM on a
pedestal" stuff! ILM does some fantastic stuff, true. But let us not forget
the other companies out their that don't have the bucks to force-feed
themselves to the public: PDI, Rhythm and Hues, Blue Sky, Angel Studios, Boss
Film Studios, Santa Barbara Studios, PIXAR…. the list goes on and on.<—
I think the main reason that ILM gets so much press is because they are
constantly breaking new ground realizing their visions. Although these other
companies do produce some great stuff, it's for the most part nothing that ILM
didn't do first.
Right now, in Hollywood, there are basically two different kinds of effects.
There's the "oh my God!" type of effect, and the "I didn't see the effect"
type of visuals. ILM has mastered the new current trend, which is the
invisible effect, quite nicely in Forrest Gump. Many of the F/X shots in the
show were 'invisible' to the audience, most noteably, the erasing of the Lt.'s
legs. Other companies, with a few exceptions, are only now starting to take on
this type of work. ILM also tends to do this type of work on a huge scale.
Radio Land Murders, which was pretty much a flop, used many types of digital
manipulation techniques to 'fool' the audience into believeing that they were
seeing many more dances on a stage than were really there, for example.
The reason ILM does so much good work is because George Lucas see's his digital
deamhouse as the means to an end in telling a convincing storey, not as an end
in itself. One big reason that ILM has embraced computers is because without
them, Lucas would not be able to create the universe needed for his next
trilogy.
The next big rage in Hollywood will be to do not only all the abouve mentioned
F/X type work, but to do cheaper and faster. Lucas will no doubt lead the way
in this new direction, taking ILM, and the technology it represents, right
along with him.
GT
>I would pay hundreds, maybe thousands, just to be allowed to sit quietly
behind an ILM CG effects person and watch them (and bring them fresh coffee).
🙂 <
no doubt. I'd do that for months.
JNJ
Im sure You and thousands of other people with work for free or "pay" to work
at ILM. ILM is probably the most desired company that computer animators want
to work for. But I have a feeling that the grass is always greener on the other
side. I know two or three people that have worked there and they said that is
was very hectic. He said when he came home and went to bed he was dreaming of
working. He almost had a nervous breakdown. But he said he would do it again.
Isnt it funny how when you go to siggraph or some big show, the first thing
you tend to look at is the persons badge, to see where they work.
Andrew
ILM would certainly be fun, but probably not worth the stress level. Well,
mabe for a year or two. 🙂 I'm not into mass production, nor working on very
fast paced teams. I have considered Lucas Arts though. Not the same, but
kinda similar.
JNJ