#Keyboards and Icons
63 messages in this thread
Larry, so can I, but 'return' is NOT a meaningful thing to a substantial
portion of the worlds population.
Vic, Ok…..so if all the keyboards have arrows on the Backspace, on the tab,
on the shift keys and on te Return key, how do you tell someone to hit
return?
"Enter te desired choice, then press the key with the arrow that looks like a
backwards L" 🙂
GreG
Greg,
The same way someone recognizes that an upside down 'L' with the
arrow facing left and enclosed in a red circle with a red diagonal slash
means 'No Left Turn'. Or that a Hexagonal Red sign on the corner of an
intersection with some letters in it in white means 'Stop'.
The use of 'universal' symbols transcends written words.
I can't draw what I want very well with the symbols available here on
CIS, but let me try one and see if you can figure out what it means:
+——+ +——|\
| | | |
| |—-> | |
| | | |
+——+ +——–+
(The symbol on the left has 4 rounded corners, the symbol on the
right has 3 square corners and one 'folded' corner)
This symbol is on a keycap on a terminal. Whatcha think it means?
Don
Fold the screen down? Block vs. some other mode? Geez I dislike those
socalled 'universal' symbols. If I'm looking for a washroom at an airport, i
don't feel comfortable choosing one unless I have seen both the 'male' and
'female' symbols, so I can be sure which one is meant by the one on the door
I am about to enter. Graphic symbols on a program's gadgets or menus give me
the same trouble. They are puzzles, and ones that I am not particularly adept
at solving, and puzzles belong in games, not in 'serious' software.
-larry
Larry,
Well…let's see, in parts of Canada there are signs that say
(something like) 'AVEC'. I haven't the faintest idea what that means, but
since it's on a hexagonal red sign, with white outline and white letters, I
think it probably means STOP so I do.
It's the universality of that symbol that causes me to stop, not the
letters printed on it.
Don
Don–
Take a look at PageSetter some day. It can take HOURS to figure out what
they mean, when a word or two would have solved it. (ANY word in just about
ANY language: one ROMANCE language at least though) would have done it for
me.
Even APPLE uses words as well as the glyphs.
Do you really think people didn't KNOW what NO SMOKING meant?
// Jim
If they are non-english speaking, there is a very good chance they won't know
what "NO SMOKING" means unless there is the international symbol to go along
with the text.
Any reasonable person will take the time to quickly find out what the
important phrases in a country mean. I'd much rather look a word up in a
dictionary or phrase book than puzzle out some obscure representation that
may or may not be universal.
-larry
To each his own. As international symbols are becoming more and more
accepted we'll soon see (for good or bad) regional differences disappear.
<Snapping fingers> BINGO! That's what's missing! We need an ICON
DICTIONARY! A picture book, like Chinese dictionaries, that are arranged in
order of symbol complexity. See an icon you don't recognize? Grab your icon
dictionary and look it up. 'Course then the icons would be explained with
<gak!> WORDS! <Shudder>
Rick
Maybe they would be explained with other Icons…. 🙂
Steve–
I have a hunch that unless they come from Mars, they know. I think we have
a tendency to assume that unless people speak fluent English they are not
intelligent. People learn MOSTLY by context clues. I doubt there are many
immigrants in America who do NOT know what NO SMOKING means. The graphic
symbol is just different. Anyway, why argue about what should be empirically
discovered?
// Jim
I'm sorry, Jim, I didn't realize that smoking was an American only
phenomenon, and that should someone in Madagascar get the urge he would
readily understand "No Smoking".
Jim,
If everyone knows what 'No Smoking' means…why do most places post
that information in several languages?
Don
Convenience and courtesy Don.
Don,
That is the most backward reasoning I have heard today. (But then, I have
been with myself most of today.) Maybe they post it in all those languages
because their lawyers told them to? Or maybe they have the fond hope that
the more they put up the posters the better the chance someone will care. We
have NO SMOKING signs in all the classrooms of my college. Also, no eating
drinking, etc. Guess what some of the teachers do?
Although I am normally a pointy-headed liberal, this is one case where I
think law enforcement IS the answer. If the Dean of Faculty would complain,
the teachers might stop. Same for the Dean of Students. But everyone is
more concerned with attrition, retention, and image and NO ONE wants to be
seen as "punitive" etc. (I AM overstating the case, but you know what I
mean).
Anyhow, I am glad the signs are in many languages because it is a sort of
"Welcome" sign. I just doubt it is vitally necessary for short things like
"men" and "women." Now, MANUALS and other long messages clearly must be in
the LANGUAGE of the audience.
// jim
Jim,
What's backward? You said that _everyone_ recognized the sign "No
Smoking" and I was merely pointing out the fact that may who read only a
foreign language might not recognize what those words meant. And because
there was the possibility of it not being recognized, in many instances, it's
also printed in the predominant second language spoken in the area. Here in
Denver, that happens to be Spanish, so I see them in both Spanish and
English.
In other parts of the country, I would imagine they are in other
languages also, and would guess that in parts of Canada…they are in French.
If everyone recognized what those words meant…why go to the trouble
of putting it in another language? To me, it only makes sense if in fact,
there are persons who don't recognize the English words.
Don
Good question Don. In the case of canada, it's because the federal government
has decided that all things written in certain places will be written in
French and English, no matter whether it's appropriate to the area or not. In
Vancouver, for example, it would be more appropriate to write everything in
Chinese.
-larry
Don,
Funny you should pick that particular example. Yes, the traffic signs have
become ingrained into anyone that has spent more than a few weeks behind the
wheel of a vehicle. In the case you mentioned, the sign reads 'ARRET', which
means 'STOP' in French, and of course those who don't understand the words,
do recognize the sign's meaning and stop. Strangely enough, the STOP signs in
France consist of an equilateral triangle, with an apex pointing down, white,
with a blue border, and a fairly small word on it. The word is 'STOP'.
-larry
Larry,
I think you just proved my point…as you can see, I forgot the word
printed on the sign…but remember the symbol and stop.
If I were in France (never have been) and tried to drive, because
they have what I see as non-standard (perhaps it's European standard?) I'd
probably quickly get into an accident if I were foolish enough to try to
drive there.
If the symbol is standard, I don't care what the word in the symbol
is, I know what it means. 'RETURN' and/or 'ENTER' are not only not standard,
they also don't mean the same thing. The bend arrow always means the same
thing on every terminal I've ever seen (and that's a lot of different
terminal types).
Don
Don,
You may think I have proved your point, but i think not. Yes, it is the
shape of the sign that makes you recognize the one with 'ARRET' as a stop
sign. However, i think you overestimate the danger of driving in a country
like France, with a different shape/colour of sign. I drove in France for
better than 3 years, and I can assure you it took next to no time at all to
learn the sign shape/colour conventions, and in the case of the stop sign,
there was the word, in plain sight, so that I knew what the shape and colour
signified. As far as i know, I never did go through a stop sign as the result
of non-recognition of it.
In the case of ENTER or RETURN, they _can_ mean the same thing, and what
they do mean is dependent not only on the machine, but on the particular
environment of that machine, as when running a program. In fact, if you were
to puzzle out the bent arrow as meaning 'move the cursor down one line and
position it at the first column', your analysis might be wrong for any number
of particular programs that might be running on that machine.
I bring this up only to emphasise that whether or not a key is marked with
a particular symbol or not is of no significance to its operation. The
machine and the environment determine the action taken. I do prefer either
RETURN or ENTER. You prefer a bent arrow. I take offense at the idea that we
must be forever exposed to more and more iconic representations of actions
that may or may not be obvious as to meaning.
-larry
The stop signs in Germany are interesting. A big red hexagon with STOP in
white letters.
Jeff,
Many countries recognize that the Engish word 'STOP' is amost universally
recognized. I think it beats an iconic representation by a long shot. If we
let software authors have their way, there would undoubtedly be some
completely incomprehensible picture for denoting the same command, and a lot
more accidents.
-larry
And here I step in with my argument(s) against nationalism, and for a
"united" system of some kind. This incestuous "only my language is good
enough for me" attitude only contributes to the problems you guys are talking
about. We only need one language. I think that's pretty darn obvious. What's
_not_ obvious is which language to use… it might seem obvious, but try and
tell a swede that. –Ben–
Ben,
Depending on my situation at any given time, my language _is_ plenty good
enough for me. If I am in a situation where it is necessary, I will learn
another language. I agree about needing only one language. To me, the choice
is obvious, since few languages approach English in terms of exact
communication of ideas, especially in the field of science and technology.
-larry
"To me, the choice is obvious, since few languages approach English in terms
of exact communication of ideas…"
Falling down laughing>
Rick
Larry,
Never visit Scotland, then. 8)
Doug
A goup of letters IS a graphic symbol, and other people are smart enough to
associate them with functions after one or two times.
In French it is "le weekend" and "le teenager" because they didn't have them
originally. Films used to end with FINIS. I always knew what they meant.
My point is that if everyone saw "ENTER" or "Scungilli" or some Chines
ideogram on that big key, we would have no trouble remembering what it did
after a few uses.
// Jim
Jim,
Exactly my point…the reversed 'L' with an arrow on the end is just
as good a symbol as the word 'ENTER' or 'RETURN' and is universal. The
symbol 'ENTER' is an English word and means nothing to someone who only reads
Ideograms.
Even more to the point, on a block mode terminal, the key that
performs the 'RETURN' (reverse 'L' with arrow) is NOT the same as the key
that performs 'ENTER' (also known as SEND).
That means that on any terminal I've used, the key with the reverse
'L' moves the cursor down one line and to the left edge or left most field
mark depending on the mode. The key marked '–>|' moves right on tab stop or
to the next field mark depending on the mode. Both are understandable after
one use no matter what written language I understood.
If keycaps were marked in Ideograms, I would soon learn what a
specific Ideogram meant, but it wouldn't be as intuitive as the graphic
symbol of the action the key performs.
Don
Well Don, my point is that the changing of the symbols on the keyboard was an
arbitrary and useless action. If, as you seem to be saying, you agree that
any symbol will do it, then the symbols we had on the A1000 keyboard were
sufficient for the purpose of identifying the key.
-larry
Larry,
I agree that any symbol will do…but I also think that the
particular symbol chosen should have the widest possible recognition, so that
a user in one place could immediately recognize what key did what action.
That was my point.
Don
Larry, perhaps in North America, they were/are, but I'm not so sure about the
international market. Geez, they've always said that Americans were
provincial, but I thought they meant U.S. citizens. <smmiiille>
Vic,
Nothing stopping other countries from putting their own symbols on computer
keyboards. It's done all the time.
-larry
Now wait just a minute here.
First of all, you congratulated ONE person who "proved your point" about the
folded corner. I don't know how that proves your point when as many if not
more people have already said "duh". I'll add another "duh" to that… I had
absolutely NO idea what your icon was supposed to represent. And that on top
of the fact that I happen to USE a 3270 on a regular basis. Harumph… don't
get me started on 3270 icons. Want to explain to me how the little Ben
Franklin eyeglasses is intuitive for "printer"? Or what the little circle
with the slash through it means? Or any other of those half dozen other
silly symbols in the status bar that mean _nothing_?
If, and I repeat *IF*, an icon is obvious to everyone, it might be a better
approach, but that is not the case with your <-| and ->| symbols. I maintain
that a key marked RETURN or TAB is _just_ as "understandable after one use".
Because it's what it DOES, not the symbol or word, that makes the connection.
Look, let's leave non-English speaking people out of this for a bit. I
seriously doubt you'd expect to be able to sit down at a Chinese or French
computer and use it. What does it matter if the RETURN key says <-| instead
of whatever the heck RETURN is in Chinese or French? You ALREADY know what
the key does and where it is because of the standard placement; really, the
RETURN key doesn't need any marks on it at all. But okay, you can find the
RETURN… but how do you intend to deal with MS-DOS or AmigaDOS or whatever
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<continuation>
in some alien language? I think this is a non-issue that's just clouding the
discussion.
I don't think there's really any difference between RETURN and the icon when
it comes right down to it: people that know computers or typewriters will
know what that key does, no matter what language they speak. If they don't
speak the language of the OS's writer there are going to be other, more
important problems. And if we're talking about a complete neophyte, not only
are they going to have to learn the whole system anyway, I'd wager that that
little arrow symbol will be no more help to them than RETURN.
Rick
Rick,
Hehehe…yes, folks do call that 'hit the glasses' to print the
screen. If you look at it closely thou, it is a rounded corner object
pointing to a square cornered object with folded corner…what the screen
looks like to what paper looks like.
I'll be damned if I can figure out some of their status line icons,
they are strange.
Don
Oh… you mean the Ben Franklin glasses WERE your box/folded box example?
Shows how clear it is; I never even made the connection.
I'm in the middle of a special project that sort of, kind of, emulates a 3270
under special circumstances. My function keys don't use icons. They're
labeled with esoteric things like EXIT, SEND, CAPT, PRNT, and EXEC. But at
least I know what they do. 😉
Rick
Don, I have no idea what it means. Could it be….send to printer?
Nevertheless, I'd love to see the docs for that terminal, little pictures all
over the place and all. I'll stick with "Press RETURN", rather than "Press
the key with the squigly lines on it"
GreG
Greg,
Yes…that's exactly what it means. It's the 'Print Screen' key and
you proved my point, if I had asked what 'Kranwitz Haznottx' meant, you'd
have no idea (and either do I) but you were able to figure out what the
graphic meant.
I forget the model number (3270 maybe) but it's a standard IBM
terminal.
Don
Don,
It proved nothing. I spent a few minutes on it, and did not come up with
'send to printer' or anything even remotely reminiscent of that. On the other
hand, if you had asked what the key marked 'PRINT' or 'PRINT SCREEN' did, I
would probably have figured it out fairly easily.
BTW, don't tell anyone, but CBM missed at least one golden opportunity to
mess up the marking on another key, the 'CAPS LOCK', which shows up on many
other machines a a cute little meaningless picture of a padlock. By
meaningless, I mean, what the heck is being locked?
-larry
Sorry Don, I don't think I proved your point….it took a lot of thought to
GUESS that it meant send to printer. I still wasn't sure but I guessed
nonetheless. It could easily mean "mark this page".
I'm not really against the standardization of the keys, but all this BS
with the –>| and |<— and Bent L, and <–, etc says to me, "You are
illiterate"
GreG
Greg,
And in fact, to a non-English speaking person, they might well be
illiterate to the English words.
But yes, I will agree that due to standardized layout, and the very
quick learning curve to discover what key does what…it really isn't a big
deal.
Don
And a bent arrow does? At least you can easily tell a new user what a RETURN
key is.
-larry
Larry,
And what if the symbols on the keycap say 'ENTER' and the user
doesn't read English and can't find anything with the symbols 'RETURN'?
Don
Enter is still better than a bent arrow.
Larry,
Go to a block mode terminal, press the key labeled 'ENTER' and I'll
bet it doesn't perform the same function as the bent arrow key.
Yes, yes…I know, this isn't a block mode terminal. That's not the
point. Someone who uses something other than an Amiga can immediately
recognize what key does what on an Amiga keyboard.
Standards are good in some areas, and keyboard layout and symbolism
are one of them. I can touch type on the Amiga's keyboard because it has a
standard layout. I don't have to learn where the keys are on it versus the
AT&T and IBM terminals I use at work. That's important.
Don
Don,
On which Amiga's keyboard? There are several varieties.
Basically, i am expressing, strongly, my preference for the one on my
A1000.
-larry
Larry,
>On which Amiga's keyboard?
hehehe…yes, there have been several. I'm talking about the 'new'
A2000 keyboard, the one with the large F keys.
Yes, I too prefered the A1000 keyboard, not for it's symbols, but for
the feel of the keyboard. For me, it was very crisp and easy to type on.
I've gotten used to this keyboard (the new A2000) and really like it also,
but do yearn for the feel of the A1000's keyboard. This one isn't quite as
crisp, but is the 2nd best keyboard I've ever used.
Don
Don,
For me, it was size, wieght, feel, layout and markings that made me like
the 1000 keyboard. I really do dislike the symbols on the 2000 keyboard, as
much as I disliked the ones on the various 327x terminals.
-larry
Larry,
I hated the original A2000 keyboard. It felt cheap (and probably
was), the keys were anything but crisp…in fact it felt like my old ST
keyboard which I despised.
It was very light weight and the circuit board 'gave' quite easily.
The new A2000 keyboard is a whole different animal. While it still
has the same markings, except it took away the right Amiga key and added a
right Commodore key, it is built like the A1000 keyboard, is significantly
heavier than the original keyboard, and has a solid metal backing plate for
the keys like the A1000 does so it doesn't give.
It is also significantly 'crispier' to the touch. I think the old
style keyboard had the 'conductive button hits circuit pad' type of switch,
which is 'mushy' to me. This keyboard has real switches.
Don
Don,
I'll see if I can get a chance to try one out. Won't help on the layout
much, except for the Fkeys though.
-larry
Larry,
Ok…I'd be curious to know what you thought about the feel of the
keyboard. BTW, as usual, I blew the right/left wording. They changed the
Left Amiga key into a Commodore key, not the right Amiga key.
Don
"… 'return' is NOT a meaningful thing to a substantial portion of the
worlds population."
Nor is "NUM LOCK". And non-computer users often don't understand the
distinction between CAPS LOCK and SHIFT LOCK. And the meaning of the CTRL
key is totally non-obvious, let alone the ALT. How many people know what the
TILDE (~) is really for? Or the vertical bar?
While I don't find the icons distasteful the way Larry apparently does,
neither do I believe that we should/need to pander to people. If you're
going to learn to use a computer, you're going to have to learn certain terms
like BELL and ENTER before you can get very far. Substituting a <–| symbol
for RETURN does NOT solve problem one, IMHO.
I also don't agree that "… 'return' is NOT a meaningful thing…". Anyone
who's used a typewriter understands the function of the CARRIAGE RETURN key,
and the similar placement, shape, and labeling of the RETURN key should make
its function immediately obvious. If you want to talk about people that have
never seen a typewriter, fine… but you're going to have more important
problems than explaining what RETURN means.
Sorry, but your argument just doesn't stack up for me.
Rick
Americans have to be the most chauvinist people in the world. If a person
knows 3 languages they are tri-lingual. If they know 2 languages they are
bi-lingual. If they know one language they are American. We expect the
world to accept whatever we do and accept it gratefully. That day has come
to an end. BELL, ENTER, RETURN, etc., are meaningless to the majority of the
world's population. CBM is an international company. I believe it's a very
smart move for long term gain for them to standarize and internationalize the
Amiga keyboard.
Apparently we watch the same television Steve, as Sonny Spoon issued those
same words just hours ago. While it's a significant comment ("… if they
know one language they are American"), it is absolutely and totally
non-germaine to my comments.
You will notice that nowhere did I mention people who speak other languages
in the message to which you replied. You will also notice that, in another
message in which other languages WERE mentioned, I did NOT say that they
should learn English "… and accept it gratefully". In fact, I specifically
used the example of one of US sitting down at a Chinese or French computer.
The problems are the same in both directions.
Allow me to restate my comments to this point.
1) I do not find the icons on the keys distasteful the way Larry does.
2) Given #1, I also do not think that the <-| icon is useful or intuitive.
The computer keyboard is not standardized (look at all the locations for
CTRL, TAB, ESC, and function keys), but the _typewriter_ keyboard *IS*. The
return key is where it always has been; it doesn't need ANYTHING on it, word
OR symbol, for a user to know what/where it is. <-| doesn't tell a
computer/typewriter neophyte ANY more than RETURN; in fact I'd wager it'd
tend to frighten them off more than a simple word.
3) As for foreign languages, the icon is also a red herring IMHO. A
<continued>
<continuation>
special keyboard is definitely needed for languages like Chinese or Japanese,
and highly useful for languages like German and French if one is to minimize
the amount of alt-shifting needed to get at their special symbols. At the
very least, one would want those special symbols ON THE KEYCAPS so a user
would know where they are… just like we have ASDF… on ours. And all the
programs, the OS, and probably parts of the ROM are going to have to be
rebuilt to use the appropriate language/font. Now with all this happening,
it certainly seems that the RETURN key can have whatever RETURN is in their
language instead of the icon. The Brits have a remarkable clarity about
them… where we use YIELD, they use GIVE WAY; where we say DO NOT REMOVE,
they say NOT TO BE TAKEN AWAY. Maybe we should give them the job of labeling
the return key; they'd probably come up with something infinitely obvious…
DONE WITH THIS LINE or something.
Now, if you can read chauvanism into this sentiment, more power to you.
Rick
Spoon to the rescue again.
Ah, well said.
Hmmm, 59 messages in this thread, all 'cuz I decided to make that comment.
You have suggested that we leave out people who do NOT speak English (in a
message I've already passed in 'thread' order) but it was to those people
that I was referring.
When I first read and replied to your message, Vic, I was thinking about
English-speaking users. Perhaps I read "of the world's population" as "of
America's population". For whatever reason, I thought you were speaking of
computer neophytes, not non-English speaking people.
Later in the thread when other languages came under closer observation I
realized what you meant. Since my comments still applied to new users, I
decided to let the first message stand. The second message from me discusses
foreign languages.
"… leave out…" was a bad phrase. I didn't mean to exclude them so much
as to just seperate the arguments. We've got intuitive/nonobvious icon
discussions going, and mixed in with them we have discussions about icons
crossing the language barriers and words not. I was just hoping that by
focusing on one issue at a time we could talk this all out to everyone's
satisfaction without becoming totally muddled down.
On the other hand, if I'd just shut up and go away, you folks could get on
with your argument. 😉
Rick
Vic,
I've also been amazed by the length and breadth of this thread. Ooops,
there goes another group of messages now. And all over a little <-|.
Imagine what would happen if you started one on |<-
->|
Looks sort of like a toggle to me. Let's see… if I push it to the
right… no that doesn't work… if I push the key to the left…
no… Maybe it would be a good idea to combine this thread with the
one on religion:
|
—
|
|
What does this Icon mean to you? Something along those lines.
Oh, and why does ! remind me of the Pope? Hmmm….
Lee