#Whither WordPerfect
53 messages in this thread
The WordPerfect complaints -were- productive, as they are working on an
update to correct what was mentioned.
However, I suspect that a couple of things have slowed them down alot,
including a buggy first release of Library (read AMY REPORT 3 for a Library
review) and other things that I can't mention.
I'm pretty disappointed myself – once a serious problem like a guru or a hard
drive crash is reported, there should be a fix ASAP. I'll see what's up.
Henry,
You have been the most ardent supporter of WP here. Sometimes to the point of
crusading. I'm afraid that you're dissapointment is going to increase.
Unfortunately, I don't think that WP is seriously interested in the Amiga other
than to say their product runs on this machine. Amiga 5.0 is now apparently
two, repeat TWO, years off. I really hope I'm wrong in my negative feelings and
will be only too glad to say I have misjudged them if evidence to the contrary
is true. But, sadly, I don't think so. (read you're dissapo9tment = your
disappointment).
Rich
My disappointment has not turned into utter damnation or calling WordPerfect
"braindead." Yet.
What's particularly frustrating is to see *potentially* brilliant products
like WordPerfect and Interceptor come short because of implementation –
products with incredible potential.
I reached disappointment level when Library was released with significant
bugs. (Even though, as I point out in Amy Report 3, it's far superior than the
initial release of WP itself.)
I then reached a stronger level of disappointment when the "coming" udpate
hasn't "come" yet – and the current version has some significant problems also
(though I was able to "forgive" them previously because the bugs were recently
made known to them.)
Henry,
The whole WP thing has become very strange. It may surprise you but I was VERY
enthusiastic regarding Amiga WP in the early months of the program even with
the debacle of the first release disks. I had no reason to believe that the
promises from this very reputible company were not to be trusted. The promises
then of course were that if the Amiga community responded well to 4.1 then a
full featured ("even better than MS DOS 5.0) version would be ready within six
months.
I now feel that WP's thrust was to get their product installed on as many
computer lines as possible, period. As long as they could advertise such
horizontal coverage, they had met their goal.
I believe that their market research tells them that a miniscule number of
Amigas have hard drives and therefore, they are not interested in correcting
the HD problem with Amiga 4.1 anytime soon. There are still smart money people
in the industry loudly proclaiming the imminent demise of the Amiga. I am sure
this influences software development and upgrades.
WP may feel it has completely saturated the Amiga market. Amiga sales are flat.
And although 600,000 Amigas have been sold (vs 1.5 M MACs and I don't know how
many million PC's), we actually may be viewed as a dead end as far as WP is
concerned.
Why else would a company with the reputation that WP enjoys in the PC world
release such second rate products as they have here?
Rich
I don't know much about WP, but they are advertising for experienced Amiga
software engineers. Peter.
Really, where are they advertising??
I think I saw it on Bix.
Well, I can't agree with everything that you've said. They are concerned
about correcting the hard drive problem – in fact, as Lynn said awhile back it
-has- already been corrected. Now, the fact that they haven't yet released it,
bothers me. As far as I'm concerned, they shouldn't fix anything else – they
should have fixed the spell-check guru and the *potential* hard drive problem
and then released the product. And saved the other problems that they (MAY) be
working on for yet another release.
I also still don't agree with your assessment of the WP 5.0/4.1 situation.
I'm having a hard time accepting that someone told you that 5.0 would be
released for the Amiga in 6 months – did someone at WPCORP really say that? Do
you remember who by any chance?
WP Corp wants to get a full-range of productivity software on the Amiga –
Library now, and something else next, and then WP 5.0 is what I understand. All
these WP 4.1 updates (and a problematic first release of Library) are slowing
them down somewhat I would assume. I wish they'd just get 4.1 bug-free and
never return to it again – and move on. Forget the scroll bar, even, let's
move on to the future. I can't imagine that for even them, buggy releases are
economical. Their free update policy has cost them tens of thousands of disks
(I would assume) and Federal Express ain't cheap either.
I would have to *ASSUME* that someone at corporate management level is
pushing them beyond what they can really do, and into unrealistic demands.
For me, though, Library and WordPerfect itself go into my disk drive on a
very regular basis and will continue to do so. They both have their moments of
absolute brilliance. I will be checking into Excellence, however.
Henry,
If the HD problem has been fixed then why hasn't it been released? Has someone
at WP said, "Whoa. We've already lost a small fortune on correction disks
al-ready cut off the flow." ?? Frankly I wouldn't blame a Comtroller type of
CFO from doing just that to the Amiga development section. But that's the point
I have been making i.e. we (Amiga) have been subjected to much less than
professional efforts on WP's part.
And yes Henry, in July ,1987 someone at customer suppport, I havn't the
foggiest notion who (there was no Amiga support section then), told me that
once the Amiga version was released, plans were for a full-featured upgrade
within six months if the 4.1 product sold well. That's as close to a direct
quote as I can get. Several days ago customer support emphatically stated that
Amiga 5.0 is AT LEAST two years away.
I have ordered Excellence after hearing Ben's brief positive recommendations. I
really am not at all interested in Word Perfect bashing. I just want at long
last a word processor worthy of this machine. And then I don't want to even
have to worry about its name. I just want to use it until the keyboard wears
out.
Rich
This is pure speculation, but since one person (that I know of, and that
those I know know of) has reported a hard drive problem that's rarely seen
(plenty run it from a hard drive with no problem) they've decided to fix other
things before releasing it officially. In addition, I know that Lynn was on
vacation for awhile.
I don't agree with this logic – again, they should've fixed the 2 problems
and released it.
I think the person who told you that 5.0 was "at least" 2 years away was as
mistaken as the person who told you it was 6 months away. I don't think they
could do 5.0 in six months if they wanted to, even if they rushed 100%.
Especially considering that they would have to "wait and see how 4.1 sold." I
think that perhaps some of the support people are sick of hearing people ask
for it.
Lynn has said, in fact, "we are working on it now" several times here.
Henry,
OK, OK. They said what they said what they said. The program has the
acknowleged bugs. It shouldn't have them. They should be fixed. In my opinion
4.1 is a bad product, for me. I feel that WP has not lived up to the things
they have said, to me. I hope I will find what I need in Excellence. No more
of this from me. There are more worthwhile things to pay attention to.
Now lessee…about OS 1.3 it's coming out when…?
Rich
I fear you will find that excellence follows in the footsteps of WPerf.
Initial release has MANY problems.
The most current WPerf is ALMOST usable. (April 88 version) If you resign
yourself to booting on it, and NOT multitasking, it will actually work. Save
your documents OFTEN, though.
J:
Jay,
Thanks for the tip.
Oh, nuts. Here we go again!
Rich
What are you having problems with? Considering that they are trying for a
new version soon, let's get them all nailed down while we can.
Jay – if you know of bugs with Excellence, spit em out! I (and others) are
using it, committing many hours and many pages to it's care – if there are
bugs, tell me now, please! I have not found any so far… –Ben–
My knowledge is from reading the nets. Mainly people complain about its
sluggishness. It does not import Scribble! documents well (I observed that
myself), and it produced a Software Error in the first 1 minute of use by the
local dealer. I'll find out what did it for you.
J:
ben,
I have a message captured from Usenet that rebuts a few complaints about
Excellence, (I hate the '!' too) and gives a few hints on operating it for
speed and efficiency. I'll upload it as soon as I finsish reading messages.
-larry
Rich,
..and the fact remains that they have a beautiful product that they support
better than anyone else. I think you're expectations may be a bit overblown
considering the rate at which things seem to happen in software developement.
…Dave
Dave,
They have a good product on other machines. They do not have a beautiful
product on this machine.
Rich
A-men! –Ben–
Rich,
I have had WP since it came out and have received immaculate support from them
at every turn. Support the likes of which I can only imagine on other
products. I repeat, I think your expectations are overblown, given the rate at
which things happen in software developement. I'm sorry you are not happy with
the product, but that doesn't alter the fact that it is fine amd getting better
by the day.
…Dave
Do you have any comments to make on the known problems, and the fact that there
has been no update, and the non-wysiwyg-ityness of it, and the (apparently)
complete dissapearence from this forum, and so forth? –Ben–
Nope.
…Dave
Ben,
We have not disappeared from this forum, but rather two factors have prevented
us from being here recently!
– It takes A LOT of time to support this forum (less now w/ Navigator, I don't
have enough chip mem for Whap!). And I end up wasting a lot of time on issues
that have already been reported/beaten to death. I really don't know how you
guys get anything done w/ all the time you spend on CIS.
– I have been on vacation (off & on) during the past month and consequently
had less time than my normal (which is none).
As I mentioned in another message we will be shipping an update RSN.
//
\X/ Lynn
Ti5
T<?~PUPI]TV0522
I must add my two cents worth here too, out of fairness. Yes indeed,
WordPerfect's support is unsurpassed anywhere by anybody.
Also, after a year of beta testing by money-paying users, the product is
becoming ALMOST usable. Their biggest problem still lies in their stupid
choice not to support the Amiga interface, but to simulate it on their own. It
DOESN'T work as well. Moreover, it behaves like a sick snail, only SLOWER.
The newest product from the company, Library is in FAR more presentable
shape at release time. It actually has one proportional gadget buried in its
programs that works correcttlly. Many fewer bugs, too, and not really major
ones, generally. The programmers c7mitee for the best of these was recycled
from the MAC, which means they knew what a 68000 IS, instead of writing a 8088
interpreter for everything.
Maybe, eventually, WPerf will be an Amiga product. i hope so. It has a
long way to go, though.
One more item: I *LOVE* WordPerfect on MessyDOS machines. It's great.
That's why i'm so infuriated at its lousy implementation on the Amiga.
J:
You're wrong that there aren't any serious bugs in Library. Read Amy Report
3 for details.
The good news is that it -appears- to be "typical first release" type
problems, and that it's light years ahead of WP's first release.
Dave,
Amiga 4.1 is a buggy, mediocre program that has little to offer other than the
WordPerfect name. WP Corp has very nice, painstakingly polite customer support
people. WP has indeed sent us LOTS of disks since Aug '87. Truth is if such a
broken program had ever been released in the IBM world it would have been
laughed out of existence.
The program is slow, awkward and tedious. And te fact that a real Amiga
version is two years away and that the current port (4.1) doesn't even measure
up to WP's almost obselete 2nd rate program for the IBM (4.2) is just further
irritation.It is not fine and it is not getting better by the day. There has
been no fix of serious acknowleged bugs since the 4/15/88 release.
Rich
Well personally I like WordPerfect, it gives me the advantage of using word
processing files from my office. It is not pretty, I will agree, and it is not
amigatized very well, but if you want to get annoyed try the PC version! To me
it is unlivable!
As far the comparison to 4.2 is concerned, not quite a fair shot. The only
thing 4.2 had is support for legal beagles.
Remember, WordPerfect is a large Corporation who had no idea that there product
would be even remotely successful. Now that they have seen it, we are going to
see WP 5.0, and personally I can't wait.
I have not seen Excellence yet, but I will remind you folks that MicroSystem's
Software put out a couple of real dogs in my opinion. Can you say Online? How
about Scribble…
Give WordPerfect a chance! Remember, to be useful, things dont have to be
pretty! I usually find that pretty programs are not always the best programs.
-mark= Happy to be WordPerfecting, gosh, I wish I had dBase III +
I, too, have been using WordPerfect for quite a while. It performs the
tasks I ask of it (as advertised) and then some. Yes, it is a complicated
program to manage, but i do not want a Screen_Dump Text Editor… I want a WORD
PROCESSOR… and that's what it is.
Import graphics? I don't want to do that. I want to write and I want to
write a LOT! This is where it happens; enter text, review, edit and correct.
WYSIWYG? *NO ONE* who writes any amount of text wants to see the "apparent"
output… that will always be edited by someone else anyway (even if it's
yourself!).
And WP Corp has been my friend; they have answered my questions, sent me
updates and held my hand as I went along. This means a lot to me. I also have
great respect for MSS (of BBS-PC! fame) who has also supported me as I have
been running their software at The ConCourse for over a year. Questions are
answered by either Voice/Data lines ASAP, and updates provided on an "as
required" basis.
What else could a professional ask for?
Charles Conlow
74116,3067
Charles,
I'm curious… if someone else will be editing and formatting your text
anyway, why bother with a word processor? A good, fast text editor with a few
features normally associated with word processors has to be the best way to
'bang in text'.
"What else could a professional ask for?"
Perhaps a professional quality program by the time the second or third update
arrives?
-larry
A program that works properly, IE, as advertised, puts the cursor where you
click instead of on another line, doesn't trash your storage media, spell
checks any word rather then just theirs, has a decent user interface, real file
requesters, is WYSIWYG at least as far as it goes in processing text (ie, page
numbers, headers, footers, footnotes, and so forth – it doesn't do images, so
it doesn't need to show them), is able to use the computer systems standard
interface for printing (whatever else it can do is immaterial, I think), and
doesn't require 6 updates just to get to the point where it has ALL those
shortcomings, plus more. Of course, if a professional asked me now, I'd have an
answer for said professional – "Go buy Excellence!" –Ben–
Charles,
I totally agree. I've just been messing with a copy of Excellence! tonight and
granted it was brief exposure to a friend's copy and I will do more with it but
so far, like you said, it's not a word processor.
…Dave
Charles,
Thanks, it's nice to hear something positive here on occasion.
//
\X/ Lynn
Wperf is giving out conflicting reports about the ETA on 5.0. They were
saying this year at Comdex spring. It's a big job, and they don't have anybody
who can program an Amiga, so the two-year estimate is probably closer to right.
They *ARE* hiring Amiga programmers, though, in case nobody's mentioned it
here.
J:
Jay,
They're hiring Amiga programmers. Oh, good. Is it because they need *more*
Amiga programmers, or have they lost the ones they have and need replacements.
Or reassigned the Amiga team to other rojects?
Rich
Rich,
Of course I may have to eat my words if Excellence! is really as good as it
seems to be.
BTW, for a guy who is not interested in WP bashing you sure go out of your way
to accomplish it.
…Dave
Dave,
I don't go out of my way to bash WP. I havn't said a word about it in over 2
months until these recent comments. I have only repeated what WP has
acknowleged were problems and have not yet fixed as well as repeat my original
complaints about the program which I still feel are quite valid.
Rich
You're right, it sucks!
…Dave
I assume it's for their "other" Amiga products. The Library product is
mostly the work of their MAC programmers, and it's a LOT beter than the PC
crowd did with WordPerfect itslef.
Not great, but BETTER.
J:
The Library product is *not* the result of their Mac programmers. Please get
your facts straight before making such statements.
The PC crowd did not do WordPerfect Amiga either.
I *DO* have my facts straight. I talked to the ACTUAL, REAL, GENUINE
programmers at Comdex in Atlanta, and I *KNOW* they were primarily
MAcprogrammers, because they TOLD me so!
MY facts are straight.
If the PC crowd HADN'T done WordperfectAmi, it would WORK!
J:
Don't say that "they don't have anybody who can program an Amiga." There's no
reason for that kind of personal insult.
Henry,
Not much worse than implying that everyone that owns a C64 is a thief,
is it?
-John
Speaking of which…
I have about four of those LARGE floppy boxes filled with copies of copy
protected software from the 64. One of my hobbies during my 64 days was buying
CP software and then breaking it. Never pirated a thing, and never gave out
copies. It taught me one important fact; CP is NOT going to prevent piracy and
in most cases won't even slow it down by more than eight hours.
Henry,
OK. How about, "They don't have any Amiga programmers that know how to
program the Amiga without trying to turn it into an IBM clone"?
What's happened and what's happening with WordPerfect is -not- the
programmers' fault, and not where the blame lies. It lies with their bosses –
you can glean that from their messages (both Atari and Amiga programmers).
Henry,
To everyone out there the programmers/bosses etc. are all just one thing:
WordPerfect Corp. They don't ususally care whose fault within the company it
is, they just criticize the whole company.
//
\X/ Lynn
That's not an insult, it's the TRUTH! You're the one who gave me grief
about being fluffy, not you're advocating fluff in the face of a product which
is an INSULT to Amiga users. If i wanted to use PC Wperf, I would–it works
better under TRANSFORMER than it does under AmigaDOS!!!!!
J:
There is a difference between being fluffy, being inflammatory, and being
reasonably rational. You seem to swing between fluff and inflammation, at
least in our admittedly brief encounter.
Even considering WP's present bugs, you can't write all of that in assembly
and have it function the way it does now without being reasonably talented.
Henry,
I am reminded of an old expression:
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.
-larry
And please, be sure to feed back what you think of it here… I truly get
nervous as heck when a product performs like this. Makes me feel like I'm
missing something. Seriously.
You know, it's interesting – with WP, there were a LOT of people on the forum
giving it unconditional "good" plugs, actual users, tho there were some buggies
reported, fixes were reported at the same rate for quite some time. That tends
to lull me into thinking that the support is serious. With Excellence, (hate
that "!") There were a few positive recommendations (Ron? I think?) and at that
time, I was so po'd at WP that I would have bought wordstar if someone ported
it from a CPM machine. <grin> Well, maybe not, but you get the idea. ANyway,
here I am, a fair amount of text down the road, and no complaints. Interesting.
–Ben–
Ben,
Soon as I get it I'll put it through the paces. Seems that there are some here
who feel just as bad about this program as WP. Wordstar …ugh!
Rich