#GENERAL
28 messages in this thread
I HAVE LOOKED AROUND FOR A COMPUTER WITH GOOD QUALITY AUDIO AND THE AMIGA
LOOKS TO BE THE BEST AROUND. I HAVE AN EPSON EQUITY II (IBM COMP) BUT THE
SOUND FROM IT IS NOT UNDERSTANDABLE. DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS ON
WHAT HARDWARE TO PURCHASE AND IF THERE IS ALOT OF TALKING EDUCATION
SOFTWARE AVAILABLE FOR THE YOUNGER GRADES?
Betty,
All Amigas can talk just as they come from the box. You don't need to
purchase extra hardware for it.
I'm sorry, but I don't know about talking software for children. I do
remember a couple of talking programs here in our libraries – should be
Library 13 of AmigaUser. One was a spelling program that would pronounce
the words. Another was a program that taught some foreign language –
Russian, I think. There may be more – and I'm sure that there are
commerical programs that do what you want.
Betty
Betty,
have you tried some of the sound cards available for PC's these days?
They can sound quite remarkable. I suggest you investigate further before
considering switching to another computer. It would save you quite a bit of
money to simply buy a $200 card. Did you ask around in the IBM Fora?
Blaq! – via Whap!
Betty:
What you need to buy depends on what you want to do!
All Amiga's come with speech and sound synthesis built in. So, a basic
Amiga 500 should be able to run any program that uses either the computer's
ability to read text out load (which it can do , out of the box) or to play
back digitized sound from disk (which it can also do, right out of the
box).
I know that there is some educational software out there that uses these
abilities, but can't tell you what, or how much. I know some of the Amiga
magaziens (such as Amiga World) have occasional issues in which they list
all the software available.
You should also know that there are a number of "authoring" systems
available, at very reasonable cost, which permit you to create you own
interactive programs without having to be a "programmer" per se.
AmigaVision is one of the easiest to use (point and click with the mouse,
mostly) and I _think_ it now comes with every new Amiga. It lets you
combine graphics, sound, speech and animation in intricate ways to create
just about any kind of "multi-media" interactive presentation or program
you might want.
Could you be a bit more specific regarding what you want to do?
?|^] Ray Lewis
Ray,
I didn't want to do anything at all with speech. I was answering a message
from a new member who wanted to know what hardware she would have to buy in
order to use the Amiga's speech capabilities.
Betty
Betty (both Clay and Cornatzer),
I seem to remember a couple of talking books for young'uns being
published by "Red Robin publishing" (?) a year or so back. I think they
were in Huntington Beach, CA (my backyard…and I _should_ keep better
track). I saw one of the 'reader/talker' books demo'd at our club meeting.
Betty,
At the risk of starting a holy war over computers, IF your two main
concerns are sound quality and a very large quantity of talking software
for primary grades, I would suggest that you investigate the Apple IIGS.
It has an Ensoniq sound chip built-in (same one that is used in the Mirage
music synthesizer – 32-generator, 15-voice Digital Oscillator Chip with 64K
of dedicated sound RAM) and there is lots of educational software for it
that supports speech. The Apple II series is still the most widely used
computer in primary schools in North America.
Be warned though that if you walk into an Apple dealership, they'll
probably say: "Oh, Apple has stopped making the IIGS, here let me show you
a Macintosh
..". Don't believe them – Apple still makes, sells and supports the Apple
//e and IIGS, although they aren't very vocal about it.
Your best bet is to contact your local Apple II User Group or a school
board and see if they can show you something. I believe that if you phone
Apple, they can tell you the name & phone number of an Apple II User Group
in your area.
BTW, I own both an Apple IIGS and an Amiga 2000, and I like them both – for
different reasons and applications.
Allan
Allan, I think telling anyone to buy a II GS at this late date is doing
them a huge disservice.
If the majority of schools still have them, that's a mark of shame for the
school system and those who are responsible for the funding and managment
of same.
The Amiga's built-in sound falls very short in terms of "studio quality",
no question. And I'd *never* suggest that anyone use the Amiga's built in
sound for on-stage or "in-studio" work. However…
As a learing tool, it's all there. Combined with the multitasking, it's
MORE than all there, it's unbeatable. When you go from learning to
performing, it's time for a midi system – at least, on this computer it is.
You certainly aren't going to take a II GS into Electric Ladyland and rip
out some nifty riffs… while it has nice synthesis chips, it's too short
on memory to handle big jobs. Running a midi system, possibly – depends on
the s/w, and I have NO idea if that's in place for the II GS. It is for the
Amiga, though. And again, there's that multitasking. :^)
I no longer work professionally as a musician, but I do use my Amiga as
"the rest of the band" when I work on guitar or bass; and I also use it to
experiment with music. Packages like the latest synthia provide serious
capabilities for the experimentally minded. I prefer bars and pipes for
midi; won't buy copy protected trash like Dr. T's, though others eat that
stuff up.
Anyway… to your recomendation of a II GS, I counter with a "Don't even
THINK about it". I'd buy an IBM first. And _that_ is an awful thought.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Ben,
The last thing we need in schools is more "learing" tools. <g>
Michael – Whapping from the North Coast
Oh, I dunno. They allow short skirts and hotpants in my school, and I
passed several happy years lea(e)ring and learning with no ill effects.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Ben,
Like I said I don't want to start a holy war on computer platforms. However
I do agree with you on your IBM PC statement! 😎
I'll just answer this way: IF her two main concerns are sound quality and
lots of educational software for primary grades AND IF those two concerns
have to be addressed RIGHT NOW, then I would still recommend the IIGS.
You're right: It does not support multi-tasking, but how many primary-level
kids need multi-tasking? BTW, it has no problem supporting a MIDI system,
and with Apple's new sound tools, it gives _excellent_ sound quality.
Anyhow, whether the school boards should have mostly //e's and IIGS's is a
moot point. The fact is that they do, and there is a large and active group
of third party developers creating primary-level education software for it.
And there is already a large base of educational software out there for it.
Another bonus is that you can pick up a used IIGS system quite cheaply
these days, because of the confusion about its future. And if you want you
can add in up to 8 megs memory, an accelerator, a hard drive etc. etc.
The downside is that the standard configuration is slow and underpowered
for any sophisticated user. The graphics modes are not as good as many of
the other micros out there. Apple Inc. flip-flops on whether they should
advance the II-series or not (although they still are providing tools,
support and operating system upgrades). Most Apple dealers don't know
anything about the Apple II.
On the upside, there is about 5 million Apple II's installed base, and over
1 million of those are IIGS's. There is a hard-core user base with a
network of user groups. The II-series is actively used in the primary
school system. There is a ton of educational software available for it.
Apple still supports it (as a matter of fact they just released HyperCard
IIGS – a colour implementation of HyperCard 1.25 from the Mac – very
compatible and quite a nice implementation). There is also a hard-core set
of
One thing you're not figuring into your argument is: What is the school
going to do 6 months from now when all the GS software has dried up?
Working in the Software business I've seen the AppleII software and IIgs
software (which there never was much of to begin with) dry up VERY rapidly
the last year. I can say quite confidencially that by this time next year
getting IIgs software will be like trying to find Atari St software.
As for hewr two main concerns–Sound & Educational software. The Amiga has
the GS beat hands down in both sound quality & available software. True the
Apple has MORE educational software in the market right now, the quality is
sadly behind times. There are a few exceptions (Carmon San diego series,
etc…But these run better on an Amiga anyways).
The Large base of software developers your talking about is either being
very secretive or are dimishing quite rapidly. Most are going
IBM/MAC/AMIGA now.
And FINALLY PRICE. You can get an Amiga set up for About the same price OR
LESS than a IIgs. The Amiga offers far more for the price. At least 4X
the speed, better graphics, better user interface, and more expanability.
I wouldn't be surrised to see street prices ($499 right now) drop another
$100 before Christmas either. Commodore also has discounts for educators.
If you can truely and honestly say that their IIgs will have software
suppport 2-3 years from now readily available then maybe she would be well
off with a IIgs. But it's not going to happen. The C64 is dead in a year,
so is the AppleII line. They are just plain and simple obsolete. I'm not
being biased, just blunt. I would never reccomend an IIgs to a customer in
my store because I know it would be useless in within a year.
Craig Glaser (Software Etc Milwaukee) – via Whap!
Craig;
All of what you said is probably true. Unfortunately, reality seldom has
much to do with marketing. After all, if that were the case, the IBM PC
would have died six months after its introduction. It was inferior to all
of the other 16 bit machines (which actually were 16 bit machines BTW) on
the market. It was more expensive than most of them too. Even the other
Intel based offerings were superior.
An Amiga message processed by Whap!,
bill
The software purchased by schools is not at all like the software you are
selling. The schools need software that is designed to meet the needs of
the curriculum, and most of it comes from the textbook publishers. Teachers
get catalogs of the software available – and nearly all of it is available
for the AppleII, IBM, even the older TRS80 and Commodore machines – some
now for the MAC, but very little of it for the Amiga or other computers.
Those textbook companies are not getting their huge list of course-related
software re-written for the latest computers, and schools are going to buy
things that relate to the subject being taught. It may not be the greatest
software, but it DOES address the assigned topics. Yes, the software will
still be there for the AppleII so long as schools are ordering it.
Betty
Seconding Betty's point: The vendors of educational software for the Apple
series are not being 'very secretive', but are merely selling their wares
directly to the schools, or via dedicated educational softare distributors,
not in your store. The fact that 'popular' commercial software is drying up
for the Apple series in your store has little to do with what schools are
purchasing or doing.
OTOH, let's look at the educational software situation for Amigas: The
Summer '91 Amazing Computing Guide to the Amiga has *11* pages of
educational software; educators currently select from whole CATALOGS of
Apple II educational software. The MECC library alone would be many times
the size of the entire volume available on the Amiga! I'd also question
the suitability of much of those 11 pages of Amiga 'educational' software
for the classroom environment, whereas much of the Apple II software was
designed for that purpose.
Before everyone jumps in any talks 'quality' of the software; I'll concede
that much of the Apple II software is JUNKY. (but much of it is quite
good, too) However I don't think the Amiga software should cast any stones
about junky educational software, either 🙂
The fact is that schools are not going to mass-move to Amiga's in order to
use 11 pages of educational software, when they already have tons of
hardware/software they are comfortable with. Until Commodore decides that
education is a market they want to pursue, and support both vendors and
district's in that regard, it is virtually a closed door. IMHO. 🙂
–jp–seattle–
I wasn't supporting the Amiga in schools as much as I was rejecting a IIgs.
If I had to suggest a system it would be IBM first and if that would not be
affordable then Amiga setups. While I agree there is a large catalog of
School based software available for Apple, how many teaches have apples at
home? That means they have to go to school and use the IIgs's to do their
lesson plans, gradebooks, etc..How many KIDS have Apples at home? While
the computers are used more to teach subjects than the actuall computer
systems it's a nice bonus for Jr. to be able to learn at home as well.
Also schools are converting to either IBM's, MAC, or Amigas (in that order)
VERY quickely. Most public schools (at least in Milwuakee) don't even have
Apple II's anymore.
Another reason (though not econimically feasible) for leaving Apple is the
fact that it IS old. I wish I had a dime for every parent that came into
our store asking for apple software we no longer carry, OR asking where
they can get Apple computers. Why? Becuase that's what jr. uses in
school. I don't see this much anymore becuase as I said there arn't that
many Apples in our schools (though our Libraries sure have a lot of em').
Finally, Once the commercial software dries up it's only a matter of time
before the schools change because all the students will be using IBM's at
home. My MAIN argument against the Apple II systems is that in two years
they'll be useless in all be the most special circumstances. Schools have
to plan computer buys to last more than 2 years. While I may work in a
retail store, it does not mean I do not deal with schools. We have a few
schools that have an account with our store and they look at future
hardware very carfully, most schools can't afford to buy computers every 2
years just becuase they're cheap at the time.
Craig Glaser (Software Etc Milwaukee) – via Whap!
Craig, no arguments that Apple II's are OLD, and are in their declining
years. I'm not out advocating to anyone that they go out and purchase one;
was just explaining what I have seen in the public schools, having worked
in them (and taught both regular elementary ed and the computer lab, and
special computer classes) over the past twelve years.
True, in five years there will be more IBM/Mac's in schools than Apple
II's, but I'd bet that you'll still find whole labs of them out there! I
would love to see Amiga's well represented out there real soon, but I
firmly believe that it'll never happen till Commodore says that education
is going to be a big market, and takes steps to make it so. Then it'll
take them five years to get any type of good foothold. But I see -0movement
in that direction. Sigh….
–jp–seattle–
Commodre HAS started to go for the educational market. It's called
Operation Windfall. It's targeted to go after the
markets/schools/educators/etc… that have been mistreated or abandoned by
Apple. I have to admit I don't know how much effort they're putting into
this, or how organized the whole thing is, but it's a start. I doubt even
this though will have a major impact on the overall cponsistency of the
market–but then again stranger things have happened. The C64 became
pretty popular in schools for a while, and the A500 are quickly nearing
that price range. In any case my main point was, I don't think it's a good
idea in the long term to go with Apple II's. If there's a special need or
it's only short term then I could see it. But the software market can
change over night especially with declining systems.
As for whoever wanted to continue the argument over Email–I'll decline.
Never meant to start an argument, I spend most of my hours at work
(computer sales) trying to avoid them. There's a very interesting platform
war going on (in of all places) the RPG forum. Go figure. I'm fairly new
to compuserve (about 2 months real use) I've already realised to there's to
Damn many platform wars for my liking. <G>
Lature,
Craig Glaser (Software Etc Milwaukee) – via Whap!
Glad to know about 'Operation Windfall' (I wonder, whose 'windfall'???).
Glad to discuss it with you…. no wars intended; just a expression of
facts/opinions….
–jp–seattle–
>>Glad to discuss it with you…no wars intended; just a expression of
>>facts opinions…
As only it should be <G>
OH NO! The holy computer war has started! 😎
This is a no-win situation for everyone. The original poster now has a
number of different viewpoints on which to base her decision. That's all I
wanted to accomplish.
If she had asked a question regarding Desktop Video in the Apple-II forums,
I would have suggested that she investigate the Amiga. (And then I would
have gotten blasted by the Apple-II'ers!)
If anyone wishes to continue this discussion, I'll be happy to respond in
EMAIL, to save everyone from having to wade thru the discussion.
Allan
continued from previous message:
There is also a hard-core set of 3rd-party developers creating s/w & h/w
for the IIGS.
I'm a strong believer in using different computers for what they do best:
Pick the applications and software that you want to run and then find the
best computing platform that fulfills those needs. Yes, even the IBM PC has
its place in that equation!
That's why I suggested looking into the IIGS: It has the capabilities and
the s/w to do what Betty was asking about. There are upsides and there are
downsides to whatever computer she ends up with. If she wants to use that
computer for other purposes than primary-level education then my
recommendation may change. But I'd have to hear what the additional
requirements are first.
And to ensure that we don't end up in a holy war, I'll leave my comments at
that!
Allan
Well said. Having used an Apple II// for many many years, and taught with
them for just as long; Go into any elementary school today. You'll still
find 50-75% of them are using strictly Apple II's (some GS's); with a trend
towards Mac's and IBM (Writing to Read, etc). Let's face it, the schools
do not have the $$$$ to replace all their computers, and even if they did,
they are comfortable with the software that is running on their Apple's,
etc these days, and not likely to change in order to get 'Barney Bear'.
MECC is slowly porting their library to Mac's/IBMs/etc…. if Commodore
wanted to really get Amiga's into the school systems, they would provide
MECC with a dozen development Amiga's, provide several programmer
assistants for the MECC people, and have the entire library of MECC stuff
translated to work on Amiga's in about six months. THEN schools would say,
"Let's consider Amiga's".
"Apple II Forever" – remember that? Well, in the schools it's almost true.
–jp–seattle–
John,
Actually, its a bit funny coming into the Amiga world and hearing all these
complaints about the lack of support/direction/marketing etc. from
Commodore.
Try being an Apple IIGS owner and try to figure out Apple's position on the
II-series! (I've given up on trying to figure out Apple Inc. – I rely on
3rd party developers for all my GS stuff)
It ain't so bad here in Amiga land!
Allan
Allan–
You're right. We do complain about CBM alot. And we too rely on third
party developers totake the machine forward. And I'm not so sure that
isn't best.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Yeah, but I'd like it (Commodore marketing) to be GOOD, not just better
than TERRIBLE (apple). 🙂
–jp–seattle–
I'm a hard core beleiver in letting obsolete hardware die.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Sometimes though , obsolete hardware just refuses to die!
See my previous response to Software Etc. regarding the holy war – I'll be
happy to continue the discussion in EMAIL.
Allan