#ENTRY LEVEL VIDEO SYSTEM
25 messages in this thread
I am new to desktop video and would like to know if the toaster is the best way
to go out of the gate. I am better versed in PC use, so if there are any
products for PCs that compare (or if New Tek is planning a PC product) I would
like to know about them. I work for a national commercial real estate company
and we are considering some video projects but we would like to ease into it if
possible
Thanks
MA
"I am new to desktop video and would like to know if the toaster is the best
way to go out of the gate."
The Video Toaster is a great product. But remember that it runs on an Amiga
and Commodore, the manufacturer, is in liquidation and the future of the Amiga
is very much in doubt.
"I am better versed in PC use, so if there are any products for PCs that
compare (or if New Tek is planning a PC product) I would like to know about
them."
There are a number of PC (and Macintosh) based products that compete with the
VideoToaster and more are coming. It really wouldn't be appropriate to discuss
choices here, though, as some of the folks here become extremely incensed if
they feel the Amiga is being slighted.
You can research the field through any number of magazines, such as AV Video.
"or if New Tek is planning a PC product"
Who knows? They could be waiting to see what happens to the manufacturing
rights to the Amiga. For all anyone knows right now, they could even be a
bidder for those rights. Sealed bids were to be submitted this day to the
Bahamian Supreme Court.
If it were my money, I sure wouldn't buy a Video Toaster right now as long as
the Amiga situation is in doubt. Doesn't make a lot of sense as a business
decision.
Jerry
This is an Amiga forum. you would think tthe people on this forum would promote
their computer. People who ask questions to this forum realize that. (or
should). Every question anyone asks about Amiga you tell them to look
elsewhere…Always.. No if or and buts.. either C= liquidation really upset
you(lost money or something), or you like to argue.. I am sorry if you lost
money.. I think there is nothing on the PC market now that does what the
toaster does for the money.. Maybe in a year or so? The person who asked about
the toaster after listening to you is going to say.. Hey in in AMIGA forums
they are recommending PC's.. Wonderfull, Positive,
have you foound a non-Amiga system that is better for video yet? (same price
range)
If so please tell me. No vaporware boasts of PC companies that will be
delivering ILM effects Real Soon Now, I mean a system that you can buy NOW!
If you have found one,why didn't you buy it,If you did buy one, why don't you
recommend it to people here?, I'm sure that people would be interested.
Maybe CS would make a forum for it.
"This is an Amiga forum. you would think tthe people on this forum would
promote their computer."
"Their" computer? I run Intel-based machines, Macintoshes and an Amiga (with
a Video Toaster). Which one is supposed to be "my" computer?
The questioner is clearly a business person attempting to make a business
decision. A wrong decision could have significant consequences for him on his
job.
Those kinds of situations don't leave much room for your kind of thinking.
Do you really think the guy's boss is going to say "Fine job! It's great that
you've chosen a computer that may soon be entirely out of production! Great
thinking!" Would you want this man working for you if he made that kind of
decision?
The kind of parochialism you're espousing may be fine when you're boosting
some sports team, but it sure isn't the kind of attitude that will get you far
in business.
Jerry
So what kind of computer do you use for video? Do you use another for VIDEO
work? That was what he was asking about… Price for performance the mac/Pc
just isn't here yet.. If he was going to buy twenty amigas for a business
opertunity I think I would agree with you. If he was going to buy (1) for video
I don't.. Just buying software packages for PowerPC ative mode is more than a
bloody video toaster.. My question to you is why do you vist the forums if you
say nothing postive as in I wouldn't get a AMiga but would recommend a powerPc
running with ?megs and tthe software that I found useful is ?package and this
will cost you about ?$.. What are you for? we already know what you are
against..
Of course enthusiasm for a product is what business is about.. A seller Must do
that Thats how he sells products in most cases..Right?
-Tom-
"Just buying software packages for PowerPC ative mode is more than a bloody
video toaster."
That's utter nonsense.
There are a few specialty packages (like Electric Image) for the Mac that
sell for a thousand dollars or so, but except for those, your statement is
utter bunk.
"My question to you is why do you vist the forums if you say nothing postive .
. ."
Perhaps you'd care to explain the narrow chauvinism that makes you so
intolerant of any opinions you don't agree with? Are only those who share your
views entitled to speak? It would certainly seem that way.
"So what kind of computer do you use for video?"
I use an Amiga. But if presented with the need to buy a new system today, I
sure wouldn't look at anything that runs on the Amiga. Who wants a machine in
limbo?
"If he was going to buy (1) for video I don't."
Fine for you – but don't contest my right to express my opinion simply
because you disagree.
The questioner isn't spending his own money: it's his employer's. He
obviously has a job that he'd like to keep – and buying machines made by a
company in liquidation is not the smartest move someone in that position can
make.
Jerry
But you are contesting my opinion for contesting your opinion.. wierd..
Do you know of a program for the power PC that runs in native mode that does
what dpaint does for under $1000.. Please tell me. I really do what to know.
(love to get it for work).. Will you please tell me what you would get to
replace your toaster with now and it's ~cost? I do agree it may not be wise to
invest large amounts of $$ in C= I do not agree that it unwise to spend $ on a
toaster & 4000
I think it is a good investment..
You get alot of neat stuff for the price..
-Tom-
"Do you know of a program for the power PC that runs in native mode that does
what dpaint does for under $1000."
The PowerPC component is irrelevant. It's a new platform and little native
mode software is available for it.
In terms of paint programs for the 680×0 Macintosh, there are slews of them
that are equal or superior to dPaint. These include Deneba Canvas, Aldus
SuperPaint, Fractal Painter (or Designer, I forget which), Electronic Arts
Studio 1 and Studio 8 and numberous others.
Many people also use Adobe Photoshop as a replacement for any of the paint
programs.
All sell for well under $500.
"I think it is a good investment.."
That's fine. You are entitled to your opinion. Mine is that it makes little
sense to purchase a system containing a computer manufactured by company in the
midst of liquidation.
Jerry
jerry, thanks for the listing of paint programs.. I am really interested in a
2-d paint program with integrated animation cabability (not so much interested
in structured drawing programs) The animation capability is a must. Which one
of those programs listed will let me do that? The PowerPC was mentioned because
they are so cheap for so much raw power (~$2500.00) It seems like most people
have recommended them to others here ( i don't remember if you did or not) A
standard pc (66MhzDX2 I would not recommend to a person doing video work, A mac
maybe if they have alot of money for the software, but I would think that the
powerPC would be good, but the money for the same software in native mode is
Major increase over the normal mac version)
I do hope that your business has paid off your video toaster setup.
I think how effective the tool is for your needs out weigh whether a year (or
more) you might have to buy a new one.
Investing in computer hardware seems like to be a short term outlook because it
changes so fast. I hope we agree on that..
as of opinions, I think we must agree to disagree. You see a company out of
business.. I see a pretty neat tool..
-Tom-
"but the money for the same software in native mode is Major increase over the
normal mac version"
Where do you get your information? So far you've been wrong on each point
you've made. Two major page layout programs, for instance, have announced
PowerPC versions. PageMaker has priced its upgrade at $149 — the same price it
has charged for upgrade these past several years. Quark asks $195, a $50
increase over previous upgrade pricing. It is not known if this will also be
the same price for future 680×0. Adobe has released its Photoshop PowerPC
upgrade free of charge. Specular's Infinit-D upgrade is something like $30 or
so.
In terms of normal retail pricing, I know of no ports from 680×0 versions
that are priced substantially differently.
"I am really interested in a 2-d paint program with integrated animation
cabability (not so much interested in structured drawing programs) The
animation capability is a must."
I don't do any animation, so I don't pay any attention to their animation
capabilities.
"You see a company out of business.. I see a pretty neat tool.."
I see a company being liquidated. Maybe the product line will continue, maybe
it won't. Business people as a rule avoid uncertainty – and purchasing a
machine made by a company that's being liquidated is definitely an exercise in
uncertainty.
Please note that I am not nor have I criticized the performance of the Amiga
or Video Toaster. As a combination, they're splendid. I even briefly thought of
getting another Amiga just as a backup – and then decided not to. Why? Because
there is no certainty to getting parts or even that NewTek will continue to be
around.
Capital dollars are both scarce and difficult to replace – you don't spend
them in the face of an uncertain return, unless you're speculating.
Jerry
Jerry,
I see your rationale in hesitating to purchase an Amiga in these uncertain days
of it's existence. But I disagree with you that in that in some cases, the
Amiga is the only way to go, even with it's problems.
From a business perspective, Computers lose their initial value RAPIDLY. How
many XT's where purchased that are still usefull today? Sure some are still in
use but they fit the job description then and if they STILL get the job done
then they are still being used. Computers become obsolete quickly, but CPU
speed and MIPS and such are not what matters…it is the matching of the task
at hand with how easily it can be done.
My contention is that the Amiga fills certain needs (Video), more eloquently
and more cost-effectively than any other platform. If I can land a series of
jobs and clients Today with my Amiga…and make a healthy profit. I really
don't care if a year down the road, I'll have to switch platforms. What I'm
concerned about is how big a profit margin I can maintain and Undercut my
competition and their million dollar studios at the same time.
But alas, I think I've discovered your motivation…Like you, I know how
damaging a competitor can be who offers superior product at a lower cost. And I
want all of my competitors to be using a Fast Video Machine or Matrox Studio or
D'Vision or whatever…and NOT USING A TOASTER WORKSTATION. -THAT- would cut
into MY competitive edge.
Later, Jim
wow abuse.. So every single point I have been wrong on and every single point
you've made is correct.. Ah.. my mistake.. Sorry on noble one I am not fit to
wipe you're shoes..
What do you use your toaster for?
For animation/ video effects is what it was for.. That is what I thought we
were talking about.. Am I wrong once again? And you think a standard PC clone
or a mac quatra is better for that task?
I think I've got your overwhelming point that C= is in liquidation..
I do animation. It is my single most concern for the computer. I have looked
for dpaint capabilities on other platforms, and so far I haven't found one that
is in the same cost/performance as dpaint.
Ahh this conversation is going nowhere fast.. Maybe we should stop? Or are we
entertaining too many people? Anyway despite the abuse, It was fun..
-Tom-
The Amigas ablility to display animated graphics at a high frame rate is
what seperates 'Our Amigas' from the clones or Macs. Video on any level
always involves animated graphics or effects.
Many of us here have been using the Amiga for video work before the Macs
or PCs even had color graphics. My A1200/030 has awsome hi-color animated
graphics capability that even a 840 AV Quadra could barely keep up with
without a Video Vision.
I think most serious (beginner?) video people will stick with Amiga
because its still the only cheap alternative especially for Gurilla style
video work.
….John
>>have you foound a non-Amiga system that is better for video yet? (same
>>price range)
Better? Matter of opinion. But NAB was full of them. With their NLE parts
in place. By the time you take into account the $5,000 flyer, $2500
Toaster, an overpriced slot-poor A4000, S-VHS/Beta transcoding, the HDs
etc. to actually get a "working Toaster" you are not that far off the
other systems. From a business standpoint, the lower price of even
pentiums, power Macs and clones, even with PCI and other whistles, make
the 'other' packages such as Media Suite, Avid, DVision (to name a few)
more sensible as a business decision.
Ya know, its like if the motor pool guy was trying to sell your company on
a fleet buy of DeLoreans after John boy was caught trying to arrange a
cocain buy to keep his company afloat. Would you do it?
PS I have two Toaster systems I use to make a living. Yes, I will be
getting a flyer. No, when people ask me I tell them for home/hobby use go
for it. If you have business plans, don't. There's no garuntee the
"Toaster Power supply" will have any sure support at this point, and your
business will be in a precarious position (as mine is). Yes, I am
investigating options, particularly on the Macs and Power platforms. By
this time next year there will be a plethora of Toaster work-alikes on the
market with more in the wings. PC and Mac just 'discovered' video in a
big way less than a year ago. Soon the video programs for those platforms
will be as plentiful as spreads and wordprocessors while at the same time,
the potential hosts for Toasters will be dwindling in numbers. That beint
the case, not having any investment in video equipment at this point,
buying a Toaster (except as a short term use disposable item) makes little
sense business wise.
wmc – via Autopilot!
I guess it depends soley on his use of the computer.. If he is looking to do
toaster stuff and thats it… It makes sence to buy it.. If he is looking for a
NLE system well thats a different price range and maybe Amiga isn't the right
choice.. I do realize that video products for the other computers will be here
soon (a year or so) but at the moment they aren't up to snuff. My main
complaint is that Jerry doesn't ever recommend a system just says buy a Pc and
you can do the same stuff as you can with the toaster(or even bare amiga) and
you can't.. not yet.. for the same price.. I did think alot of people paid for
their systems (in video work) in a reasonable amount of time. As you and
presumably Jerry are in the business have you made more in profits from the
computer than it cost you? How long did it take? That is what is important in
business. But you and others should be and I think are looking at next
generation systems and you can see where the ma going(I don't think anybody
every got fired for recommending a clone, even though it might not be the most
efficient one to get).
I do agree that the 4000 doesn't have enough slots and is too $$ for what it
is. What can I say? C= didn't ask me! So com on guys state it as it is..
C= is out of business. Might come back in, might not.. If you need Video work
now of decent quality Amiga not a bad choice.. If you are looking to upgrade
next year to the next generation NLE you will probably have to buy a card for a
PC that will be same order of magnitude in cost as one you buy now for the PC
or Amiga(IMHO).
I do think jerry does like to stir up people.. Did me.. What can I say.. I like
my computer.. He couldn't care less.. no thats not right.. he does care to say
bad things about it.. Maybe to get reactions from peole like (oops thats
*people*) like me. Anyway this msg is too long and you get the idea of what i
mean i'm sure..
-Tom-
I agree with Wayne. If you can get substantially more out of the product than
you put into it then it has already paid for itself. If it lives for a few
more years even better.
I also agree that the mac/pc area is still a little too unstable to invest in,
so maybe that currently puts it all even with the Amiga.
I've been searching every Mac forum on Cserve trying to see about alternatives
and all I find there is uncertainty also. Problems with Supermatch tech merging
with someone else. Dropped frames in many of the Non linear systems (not cheap
either).
I just finished reading a Mac magazine reviewing Video hardware/software and I
don't believe they were real enthusiastic about any one product. The reviews
certainly didn't want to make me run out and buy anything.
Avid systems seem to be the only viable non-linear system. I believe they
start at around 10,000 basic.
All in all I believe the Amiga and other platforms are on the same level as
far as the uncertainty right now.
One option might be to purchase as many PC products that will also work with
the Toaster. Ex: DPS TBC's, TAO editizer for editing.
Currently I think that if the Video Flyer is as much of a success as the
original Toaster was then the odds for the next few years would be tipped in
the AMiga's favor price/performance wise.
I mean .. for $40,000 and up there are many more choices..
Just my Rambling $.02,
Rocky
Jerry,
What about Fast and Pinnacle (Allandin) solutions. The former has a ditiztizing
player/recorder board – full set up without the computer – for 20K Canadian, so
it must be about 15K US. Its got pretty good reviews in the magazines although
I am not sure the digital player/recorder is out yet. They are converting it to
a dual channel. (I have an order in for the Flyer though!)
Michael
from Toronto.
What can I say? I agree with you just about 100%. maybe 100.02% <g>
-Tom-
Tom,
The wait of a year is a little excessive. By the time you add the TBC(s)
[necessary even for the Flyer] Audio card and software, compositing
software, and HDs (Flyer requires 2) you total NLE is not that far off
some of the lowend Mac/PC propducts. For example, although most agree the
interface suffers from its DTP heritage, Adobe Premiere is quite the rage
and it works with a variety of cards on either Mac or PC and the Power PC
native version is soon to be released. DVIsion, Radius, and MediaSuite are
all 'low end' products that will produce quality equivalent to what most
people think is acceptable.
The systems are out there, but the question is one of growth for someone
entering the video area. If growth is not a concern, and they are willing
ot eat the 'starting over' overhead, then an Aniga is not a bad choice.
If growth is a concern, the Amiga is a poor choice. After all, many amiga
developers are in the "no new products" mode – many more than I had
supected for this early in the game (didn't even wait for the courts final
ruling…). And for those of us with heavy investments of time and money
in Amiga based suites, its a game of get what you can now to stretch the
longevity of the equipment and put off the overhead of cross-over as long
as possible. I think we are all secretly hoping NewTek creates a bridge
to another platform that we can easily stroll across. I'm sure they have
something up thier sleeve, cause if new Amiga's don't start flowing with
the type of corporate name backing (not some loose association of
developers) that inspires confidence, the market for NewTek will shrink
rapidly.
wmc – via Autopilot!
FYI, A flyer system will need only one TBC. Audio is also handled by the flyer,
and it will ship with a much improved paint program. Regards, Gary
Regarding the "No New Products Mode"
Remember the jury is still out on the Amiga's fate. I think that the 3rd Party
developers will pick up the pace either way. If Amiga Production\ is
resumed..obviously. If the Amiga technology is siphoned off into a black
hole…There will be some dropping off, but the remaining supporters could well
take a leadership role in supporting the current user base which, though small
compared to total PC's, is large in the Video niche and certainly not
insubstantial.
Later, Jim
Thomas Harmon,
Boy you and J Saperstein are funnier than a barrel full of monkeys, especially
that the conversation between you two drifted so rapidly away from the topic of
this thread.
My thought is who cares what computer you use as long as it will perform the
necessary function at the present time. Besides computers are short term
investments, any of us will probably keep our systems for 3 years max before
upgrading to the next (or maybe next, next, next) generation.
To put it in the words of the indeterminable Frank Zappa "Shut Up and Play Your
Computer" ;-).
Dave Cramer
J Saperstein,
Boy you and Thomas Harmon are funnier than a barrel full of monkeys, especially
that the conversation between you two drifted so rapidly away from the topic of
this thread.
My thought is who cares what computer you use as long as it will perform the
necessary function at the present time. Besides computers are short term
investments, any of us will probably keep our systems for 3 years max before
upgrading to the next (or maybe next, next, next) generation.
To put it in the words of the indeterminable Frank Zappa "Shut Up and Play Your
Computer" ;-).
Dave Cramer
"My thought is who cares what computer you use as long as it will perform the
necessary function at the present time."
Precisely. And buying a computer made by a company that's in liquidation is
not conducive to believing that you'll be able to get spare sparts, support and
the like.
Jerry
You should check out a copy of Digital Video Magazine, it is a cross
platform – DTV publication.
As you have read, Commodore is in trouble but we all have hope that one of
the six groups interested in the technology will indeed keep the Amiga
going. We should know more in a few weeks after the trustees make a
decision on who gets what.
The Video Toaster is by far the best bang for the buck. NewTek will
continue to support the toaster, and is looking into a Amiga refurbish
program. They continue to produce, even now, new Amiga/Toaster products.
In any case, if there was an Amiga close-out sale would that stop you from
picking up a bargain? The money you make from you Toaster you could then
move to another system the following year.
Joe Maulucci >>> Accadia Electronic Arts
AMIGA DTV & DTP BBS 1-716-882-1774