Amazing ProCalc Review
65 messages in this thread
[ continuation ]
mentioned above.
Which brings me to the final point. The review will cause many people to
go out and buy this package. They will then curse the day they believed
one of your reviews right after they curse Gold Disk for advertising this
as a spreadsheet and selling it for more than the $49 that it is worth in
its current state. They will then get upset when they call for support
(like my friend and I did) as they will find out that the person in charge
of ProCalc support has never used a spreadsheet and does not even know what
one is. They will be further frustrated at having to accept that a program
with so much promise in its basic engine is so hobbled in its output and
input, yet no one at Gold Disk will authorize the 100 hours of programming
time to fix these problems. The frustration level will cause some to avoid
all future Gold Disk offerings (unfortunate as some of their software is
top rate) and some to give up on the Amiga altogether. You can give
yourself a pat on the back for instigating these outcomes by virtue of
having been so irresponsible as to print a review that has no relation to
the actual performance of the program that was reviewed. For my part, I
will just not renew my subscription. After all, if I want to be fed a line
of misstatements and to be misled, I can talk to my local politician – for
free.
wmc
This is what happens when "editors" don't do their job. Or when reviewers
are unqualified and the editor doesn't not it. Or when editors aren't
smart enough to recognize flaws like this… or unwilling to say nothing
or nothing good about a major advertiser.
It makes me think we need a publication like general aviation's Aviation
COnsumer. THey take no advertising so their safety and product review
items are not tainted by income concerns which is what I believe happened
here. However, I can not see how printing that review can lead to anything
but bad for Gold Disk, the Amiga and Amazing.
wmc
Yes, I think you've mentioned that publication before. I can think of two
or three magazines the computing industry needs – one like that, another
that's more like a "People", with gossip, profiles, insider gossip, humor,
no platform bias, etc.
Well, lets see; that'd be "Amiga Consumer" and "Chips" … ;^}
wmc
I think this kind of mistake happens because spreadsheet-savvy users are so
scarce in the Amiga community. (That's not to say more wouldn't become more
familiar with spreadsheets– If a GOOD one was available!) Clearly, GD's
own spreadsheet development 'team' demonstrates this.
So we poor Lotus/Quattro users who own Amigas are stuck with
spreadsheet-ignorant developers writing packages that are reviewed by
spreadsheet-novices. This is the price we pay for focusing so narrowly on
entertainment, often to the exclusion of anything with a human interface
that crunches numbers (and produces numbers as the product). It's not the
difficulty of writing a spreadsheet, it's the lack of any skilled
programmers with an interest in business applications.. We've scared them
all off, as we have many of the strictly end-user types. Noone would have
poured their heart and soul into a professional-caliber spreadsheet system,
and get it right the first or second time, only to have it hailed as a
success and breakthrough for the Amiga in AmigaWorld in this month's issue
(along with corresponding sidebars and focusses on the struggling Amiga
business user who is now 'saved', etc..), only to have that brief momentum
stopped by dozens of jeering letters from weenies who took five minutes
from a game of "Lemmings" or "Dragon Knight and the Demure Princess" to
write that he doesn't EVER want to see an Amiga publication pay lip-service
to such boring stuffed-shirt things, and how using that space may have
deprived all those hard-working multimedia dudes of a timely preview of the
long-awaited-and-needed Marvel Comics package with fractal 3D graphics and
optional HeroFacts(TM) database on CD-ROM.
After working on TSSnet for two-three years, and finally waiting for the
AmigaWorld article about it to appear, we almost cried when we saw the
cover: it was some Dragon's Lair image… We had so hoped for a "serious"
cover that would let us hold up the issue in front of a client, and to say,
yes, this "World" publication about the Amiga is published by the same
people who make all the other "world" magazines, and here's what they had
to say about our product.
Christopher,
I believe that most people who own Amigas have to, or have had to work with
other machines. They are still waiting for a good spreadsheet. Part of
the problem in the Amiga community is the severe misunderstanding of the
role of beta tester and of the companies/authors to spell out what is
expected. For example, GD obvoiusly did not seek spreadsheet users and ask
them to user ProCalc, or they did but chose to ignore the comments.
Another example: a time management package was release a while ago. I beta
tested it. At first the publisher was not goin to let me beta test it
because I knew too much about time management software on other platforms.
But, after letting me test he and the author broke off all contact and did
not even send me a release copy of the software. The reason is because I
tested it thoroughly, privoded a detailed test report and opinions as far
as pricing vs functionality base on my experience with that type of
softwar. There was a basic flaw in the software'd Pert chart in that it
could allow two paths between schedule points. This is not allowed
(pre-requisites cannot be pre-requisites to themselves) in formal
"pert-ology". I commented that the tasks should be nodes instead of paths
(as is the accepted way of doint these charts to avoid that situation) and
received a very angry, insulting letterin repsonse – and that was that.
Amiga developers many times give software to freinds or relatives to test
regardless of qualifications. The pressure is for the beta tester to
priase the package regardless of usefulness, and not find any fundamental
flaw in design or approach, but only a minor bug or two. So beta testers
have a tendency to be people who are close to the author and have an
intersest in keeping the author happy, rather than in the know.
As for the gamers, it would be an interseting survey. I don't read the
game sections of the mags and skip all new product game announcements. I
always thought that a programming section would be better instead of
[ MORE ]
I've beta tested a couple of products for a company, and I've helped
influence what went into the final design of both. The particular
developer I work with really likes getting comments from the beta testers,
but frequently doesn't get *any* sort of feedback at all. A lot of people
who want to test either want to have the "status" of being a beta tester,
or are merely looking for a tool that they need for something they're
working on (ie, they need a specific tool, and the only way they can get
it is by getting a beta version). You'd be surprised how often that
occurs.
Anyway, in the end it's up to the developer to decide what advice to take,
and what advice to ignore. Developers should really listen to what the
testers are saying, because it's more than likely that other people will
have the same opinions when the product is finally released. That time
management software you talked about is a good example. If that package
makes (made?) it to market, they'd be ripped to shreads in the market
place, and it would be their own fault because they didn't listen to a
tester who worked with things like that before.
Which brings up another point…The beta testers better know a bit about
what the program is trying to do. I've turned down offers to beta test
software because I didn't know a thing about that particular type of
product (like business or music software). I've done that because I
believe that it wouldn't be to the author's benefit to have me as a
tester.
All in all, it's worked out pretty well. Beta testing is tough work, if
you do it right. 🙂
Steve
Steve,
I've only been beta-tester for one commercial product, but I'm afraid that
experience echoes Wayne's somewhat. The developer was not please to receive
critical reports and did not consistently post responses to them (i.e.
"it's supposed to do that" or "I will fix that" or "we won't be adding that
feature yet") – Silence is awful.
I think if the prospective tester doesn't need the product in some degree,
they probbly don't belong testing it. What could motivate reporting better
than the promise of getting a stable, polished tool that they need? It's
not a perfect incentive, but I can't think of anything better.
The problem is that the people want the product in it's current state, and
they don't give any feedback at all. They just want to use it to get some
paying job done, and they never tell the developer anything.
Steve
In that case it's likely that one of two things are wrong here.
(1) The beta-tester was badly chosen
(2) The developer has failed to listen and give constructive feedback, so
the reports dry up
Mike (from the UK)
It's closer to (1) than (2). The "testers" came out of the woodwork, said
they would test and report problems, and they didn't. Not too nice…
Steve
Christopher:
Getting a "stable, polished tool" IS the perfect incentive for a
beta-tester. If you have a real need for an application, you want that
application to have all the important features as well as solid
reliability. You WILL point-out ALL potential design flaws to the
developer. On the other hand, if you have no idea what the application is
supposed to accomplish, you'll only report "the program crashed when I
selected the 'Make FooBar' button".
Developers who completely ignore product suggestions from beta-testers are
the type who are only looking for bug finders.
Wayne
Wayne:
And both types of beta testers are needed for any given product! Right now
I'm beta testing a few products for a few different folks. Some of the
applications I have an interest in, and the products will directly effect
me, and the way I do things. Some others I don't know much about, don't
really care to know much about, and so the programs are purely a
curiousity for me. In the products that I'm interested in I do tend to put
more feedback into, heck for one such product I've spent many many hours
in COnferences here on CIS discussing the program, what it does, what it
should do, additions to the product, design features of it, etc. On one of
the products that I don't really know much about, I can give lots of
feedback about how the program behaves on my machine "I loaded file X and
did operation Y, and Z happened" tell the developer if any crashed
occurred, etc. Plus I can do something that a beta tester who is familiar
with the application would never do, the sort of things that anyone who
knows what they're doing knows you can't do, so doesn't try to do. I might
do those things, so I can tell the programmer if doing that crashed my
machine or not, etc. Both serve a purpose. Although it is much more fun
beta testing a product that I know I'll use! 🙂
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Actually, I think that incentive lies somewhere between what you and Steve
P. claim.. SOME of the people needing the application will most certainly
give you feedback. The more fundamental the application is (as with
spreadsheets), the higher the reporting rate, 'cause it's bound to be used
repeatedly and diversely. Go-between applications and utilities won't fare
as well, but they would generally not be as involved.
Steve,
It is tough if done right and does require people who have experience in
the software they are testing. I think some people don't have enough
software production background to appreciate what constitutes good testing.
As a result, as beta testers, they just do their one or two favorite things
with it over and over and say – yup works great. A good tester looks for
and attempts to operate the software every which way to Sunday in addition
to just doing his own little thing with it. I generally try to test every
menu item, every requester, and try to do non-sendical things to see if the
software is dummy-proofed. After all, us users can think of the darndest
things to try and do with a program…
wmc
I thought the consumers were the beta testers for most Amiga software.
Leslie,
Do I detect another veteran of "Publihsers Partner" fiasco? :^}
wmc
"Publishers Partner"? Nah, nothing serious, but I am suprised at how
quickly revisions of some programs come out. I have generally learned,
unless I get a special deal, NOT to buy version 1.0 of ANYTHING! It just
makes the post office a little richer by returning diskd to correct things
that never should've been broken in the first place.
Steve
I cannot agree more with your comments about beta-testing … I've been
doing it almost since the day I got my first PET (serial number 13 🙂
There's an ego-trap that developers can so easily fall into … they'll
only take criticism when the comments agree with their own.
Of the several developers I've `worked for', very few have been totally
responsive to suggestions … all sorts of arguments are put forward for
their rejection of ideas, and it's often crystal clear that they are just
making excuses because all they're looking for is bolstering of their own
egos.
In addition, such developers will often dismiss carefully researched bugs
because they themselves cannot replicate the problem … rather than
spending a little time with the code, looking for the obvious, they'll
steadfastly refuse to accept it's there.
And beta-testers shouldn't just be looking for bugs … they should be
looking for consistency (which is so often easy to lose through a program's
development), logicality, intuitiveness and, above all, the ease with which
a user can build a cognitive map of the software (a process the designer
has _never_ had to go through, but _every_ user will have to).
Of course, you're also right that a beta-tester must know his stuff …
although, sometimes this can blind the tester to the real problems and he
needs to be able to look at the software with different sets of eyes.
Some time ago, I wrote an article (which never got published, sadly) all
about the art of software testing (in alpha, beta and gamma stages) … it
started off with something like `there are four things that any software
author needs; four basic tools without which he cannot function. The first
of these is his computer … the second is his own imagination … the
third is his compiler environment … the fourth is his team of testers.'
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[ continuation ]
Therefore, the testers are a critical (and vital) part of the design
process who must be prepared to work … and work reliably. But the
software author must also treat his testers with respect … listening to
what they say with sympathy, accepting that their ideas may be different to
his own (and may well be right!) and above all keeping them informed of
progress.
In all my time, I have only encountered two software authors whose approach
was anything like acceptable … one from the past, and one currently
writing. The latter is the best author I've ever had to deal with!
After all, beta-testing _is_ tough work if you do it properly, and it's
usually unpaid (although many authors seem to expect the same commitment
that they'd have from a full-time employee) … but it's great fun, and can
be very intellectually rewarding.
Mike (from the UK)
Mike,
You're probably aware that software development is so much an ART than a
SCIENCE it's unbelievable. Let me play devil's advocate and suggest some
other possibilities for what you see. I'm not defending a poor developer's
behavior at all, just offering some possible explanations (and excuses
:-).
For starters, you're making a fundamental assumption about the programmer's
motivation. Is it the desire to solve a USER'S problem or a TECHNICAL one?
It's not always the former, as you'd hope.
While I haven't written Amiga programs (I've done mainframe software),
software design, and *especially* the user interface associated with it, is
incredibly subjective and the subject of many "religious" arguments, many
in the ambiguous names of "consistency" and "ease of use". Putting myself
in the developer's shoes, if someone wants to argue my interface is bad for
some reason, I may not listen because: (1) I'm not interested in user
interfaces, I like to solve different programming problems, like complex
equations or animation; or (2) I don't have time to explain to the person
that I've spent much time and energy desiging it and have already rejected
the tester's proposed alternative for very complex reasons.
I'm not trying to give *all* programmers a bad name, but the first argument
is probably more true than anything (unfortunately). A programmer isn't
always interested in the challenges of software design, much less the fact
that software design isn't the same thing as the design of the user
interface. Large companies have recognized this and have "human factors"
engineers who develop the interface, and ensure consistency and usability
among different products. I've seen many mainframe programmers who have NO
interest in design at all. Another problem is that many have not learned
the meaning of "egoless" programming, to avoid taking criticism of a design
personally and focus on producing the best possible product, acknowledging
that one person may not
[ MORE ]
In the Amiga market, or in any small market or niche market, you often find
one or two relatively inexperienced programmer slash entrepreneur types
running the company… instead, I think it's helpful to think of two
titles, "software designer" and "programmer." Or "metaprogrammer" and
"programmer". One works on design and architecture issues, the other does
the actual coding.
A successful metaprogrammer will study products without concern for
platform – they have the luxuries of finding beauty in design and
interface, while the programmer finds beauty in low-level efficiency,
algorithms that enhance the design, etc.
There are a lot of very bad interfaces out there on any platform. But as
Frank Zappa said, there can be no progress without deviation from the norm.
I believe there is growing consensus about many issues of software design.
They're not the last word, but they're significant measures of progress.
The Amiga market has had a lot of deviant user interfaces, in the sense
that they don't look like anything else out there. Far too often, I don't
think they've held significant advances, which makes them historical
curiousities, not ground-breaking efforts.
John,
I sure wish programmers would look at the other platforms before
reinventing the same type of thing on the Amiga.
I agree that even though user interface standards are continually evolving,
there should be a decent consensus on how a modern program should work and
too often developers deviate from those ideas with no good reason. While
this is unfortunate, I'm a little more hopeful that with the tools provided
in 2.04, maybe developers have the "carrot" they need to do a better
interface.
*** jd
[ continuation ]
have all the answers.
You suggest that a beta tester shouldn't be looking for bugs, but ensuring
the consistency of the user interface. In a perfect world of software
development, potential users should be involved during the design and not
after the coding! Significant elements should be sketched out on paper or
prototyped. At the least, good software should be designed so that changes
to the interface don't require a major rewrite of the program!
Testers who excel at testing may not be familiar with the particular
application, and users who are very familiar with the application may not
be particularly good at testing. A single developer or two, what I imagine
is a common arrangement for the Amiga, probably gets pulled into many
different directions when they *ARE* able to get comments from beta
testers. Maybe they are committed to the success of the project, or maybe
their interest has faded and they are ready to move on to another project.
Maybe their focus was never on satisfying a computer user's needs, but
only in solving a challenging technical problem. Developing quality
software is rewarding, but different people unfortunately approach the
topic with different definitions of what "quality" is and how to get there.
*** jd
John … a most interesting, and provocative reply … I'll read it more
carefully and perhaps respond in more depth.
I would certainly agree about programming being an art, but it is also a
science … and there are groundrules in the user-interface design which
must be obeyed unless there is very good reason not to.
I certainly hope I didn't imply that beta-testers shoudln't be bug-hunting.
They should! And the more they can research the problem before reporting it
the better … on the otehr hand, some applications really do require some
non-tech testsers too.
I have an honours degree in psychology, and have researched user-interfaces
for many organisations (including my present employer and the military) and
it is often possible to make judgements on the programmer's personality and
the way they think from the interface.
It's a fascinating subject … but, I suspect, one which is too complex to
discuss at length here.
Anyway, thanks for the reply… I'll read it when I get home, and perhaps
comment in a little more detail.
Mike
Mike,
I think your background in psychology and work in user interfaces sounds
very interesting. So let me ask… what Amiga program do you feel has the
best interface? What's your favorite program (in terms of the usability of
the interface) on ANY platform?
*** jd
The thread on problems with programmers who do not listen to beta testers
reminded me of an experiance I had when I worked at NCR. We were about to
release a new model personal computer, based on the Z-80 and running CP/M.
The machine had 2 double sided, double density floppy drives (360 K each),
and 64k of memory. For only $2500. Employees would be able to buy them
for about $1500. At our plant, we were asked to evaluate them before they
went on sale. My report pointed out several major problems with the
interface. The keyboard layout was a European standard, as was the key
shape. The characters generated on the screen were odd shaped. Only NCR
made devices could interface through special propritary ports. As with
most CP/M systems, we had a unique disk format. This was just as rumors of
a new 16 bit computer from IBM were going around. I wrote a report
detailing the problems, and predicted sales in the high dozens. I received
a repremand for this. Sales were in the high teens, and only to the more
gulable employees.
No one wants to hear how ugly his baby is, even when they are trying to
sell it.
Bill Roberts in Ellettsville In. via Whap!
Maybe you should have parised them for coming up with such a great tax
write-off instead :^}
wmc
[ continuation ]
having to buy seperate "technical" issues to get the meat.
Ads for multi-media, that is the thrust of CBM marketting, and that is
smart considering the thrust of third party support. It would be
intersting ig there were as many companies producing professional database
and spreadsheet programs as titling programs but that is not the reality of
the AMiga. So, get your Quattro Pro for Windows and be happy that at least
you don't have to do it by hand. :^}
wmc
Wayne,
That's a very valid point about choosing beta testers. There aren't many
programmers that really listen to feedback. I think that's one of the
biggest problems with software that ends up as somewhat useful, but not
really good enough for power users.
Khalid.
I've run into that with genealogy software. Each author who has asked me
to test his program has already decided exactly what he intends the
program to do before I'm ever asked. Most of them are really pathetic in
comparison to the software available for other computers, but these
authors tell me right up front that the program does what they wanted to
do, and that they will not make any changes. I'm only to look for bugs
that crash the program – not to make suggestions for additions or changes.
The fellows are good programmers, but pathetic genealogists!
Betty,
What Amiga genealogy program do you use (if any <g>)? The "Family Tree"
people didn't know what JEDCOM (sp?) was when I asked about it two years
ago! I think they will have it if and when V.2 comes out. Kind of hard to
send stuff to other people with out it.
BTW does AutoPilot have a spellcheck <g> ,it's hell when you're writing
messages at 1am.
Gracia
– via Coolwhap
There is a spell checker here online that will check anything you are
writing – in any text editor. I forget the name, but I'll get it for you
if someone doesn't come to my rescue before I find it.
I've not found an Amiga genealogy program that comes close to doing what I
want. Your Family Tree is the better of the ones I've checked, but it
doesn't make adequate reports, have adequate footnoting and management of
documentation, and they have been writing GEDCOM for at least two years
now. To the best of my knowledge, it is still not available. I have
RootsIII on the bridgeboard. It has lots of failings, too, but in less
critical areas. It's a bear to learn, and the interface is a holdover
from CP/M days, but you can document every item in the database, can have
dozens of text files on every individual, and it can print out your
information in a complete book, with index and table of contents, and
gives you a choice of several formats for the book, such as covering
everyone from one generation in a chapter, or covering each family in a
chapter, etc. None of the Amiga programs I've seen can do that. It also
prints out footnotes or endnotes automatically, giving all of the
documentation for each line item about each person. NORGEN has some
nice features, but they didn't have GEDCOM and the version I tried was not
very stable. I was beta-testing a different one that is not yet out. It
does have GEDCOM, and you can use an AREXX program that lets you add
documentation. I think it might have possibilities, but I can't say much
about it until it is ready.
Betty
Betty,
At least they know what GEDCOM is now <g>. Everyone in the NYC Genealogy
SIG raves about Roots, it never occurred to me it was such a throw back. Of
course they're all MS DOS types. Thanks for info.
I downloaded the spellchecker, but don't have a clue where to put it so it
will work. Hacker docs. At least it doesn't cost $ to experiment.
BTW does it matter where one puts commands in the Whap! modem initialize?
Before he tilde, after the tilde, the K? People always advise you to "turn
off compression and/or error correction" but never give you a clue how. If
you knew how you would need the advice and it's VERY expensive ($30 an
hour) learning by trail and error. Just one little sentence would help.
Gracia
– via Coolwhap _O_
Gracia,
If "people" tell you to turn off error correction, those "people" don't
know what they're talking about.
You'll find the commands to modify the way your modem responds in your
modem's manual.
-sja
Gracia,
I'm not a real whiz on modem settings. I'm fortunate to live where I have
local CIS nodes and the defaults have always worked fine for me. However,
I do know that the tilde causes the modem to wait for a bit – I think
about half a second. A "|" sends a carriage return. The K is telling the
modem to wait for the 'K' in 'OK', and a question mark says to wait for
the following character before proceeding. Thus ?K would say, don't go on
until you see a K.
We have a script sample in the AP docs that tell you what to do to call
through Telenet, which might be what you are having to do. The script is
"~~|~~|~~@~~D~~?=D1|?@C 614227|". This says wait one second (two ~ marks)
send a carriage return, wait another second, send another carriage return,
wait another second, send an @ sign, wait another second and send a D,
wait another second, then wait for +D1, and then send a carriage return.
Then wait for an @, and then send C 614227 and a carriage return. This
would bring you to the User ID prompt for which AP (and I assume Whap! as
well) is waiting.
If you are using a modem that supports it, set it for RTS/CTS, and set the
same thing in your preferences. That should take care of the compression,
etc.
Hope this helps. If not, ask some more, and I'll try again. Or yell for
help if I don't know.
Betty
Khalid,
Well, now I'm a little embarrased as I don't believe I really had too much
to say about your FR at the beta 1.06 or so. I did use it to death but
there was nothing that I wanted that it didn't do quite nicely. And the
one little hiccup I found you already had a fix on the way when I mentioned
it, as I recall. But your stuff seems very mature when you put it into the
beta stage compared to even some released products. You have chosen beta
testers well (excluding myself for the FR, that is… :^}
wmc
Wayne:
Don't be too hard on yourself! Sometimes developers just need to know that
a given program works on a real life amiga setup. Sort of like the old
saying No news is Good news.
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike,
hehehe.. yes… it's even worse when most of your testers have debugging
tools like mungwall/enforcer… especially when you can't duplicate the
hits. But in general, I agree, no news is good news, since about 90% of
feedback is normally bad news. 🙂
Khalid.
Wayne,
From my experience with beta testers, most seems to give feedback in
bursts… a lot during the first 2-3 weeks, then in cycles of low to medium
feedback. If you have enough testers, and keep changing them often enough,
you will have a good test team.
Then there are types of testers, ones that nit-pick on every little visual
thing, ones that discuss the general concept, etc. etc.. and you do need
all these types to be able to assess the general public feedback when it is
released.
By the way, a new and improved FR is coming to a library near you soon.
(grin)
Khalid.
Here is a man who _knows_ the value of a tester; knows how beta-testing
works and who has respect for their different talents and skills.
Although I've not done much testing for Khalid lately, due to pressure of
other work, he is the best software developer it has ever been my pleasure
to work with!
Mike (from the UK)
Mike:
I'd have to agree with you on this. Khalid is about the most responsive
programmer I've ever worked with (and I've worked with a few). The other
night we were discussing the possibilities of adding some features to his
FR, wham!.. 2 days later they're in there!
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Wayne:
Too many developers think that beta-testing is only for finding bugs! I
agree that companies should seek out beta-testers that are qualified enough
in a given application to point-out shortcommings in the programs design.
However, I don't think it hurts to put the program in the hands of some
"less-qualified" testers. The combined input from both should give a
developer a real good idea of where his/her product will stand in the
market.
Wayne
Wayne,
Less qualified as in not having had lots of experience with the package, I
could aggree with. But less qualified in terms of no background whatsoever
in what the package is trying to accomplish – no way. Nothing really
useful come of it unless the package is targetted at educating the user.
For aexample, giving me a midi program to test would be a complete waste
eventhough there is a midi keyboard laying around the house here somewhere.
I have no bacground in it, nor do I have a legitimate need fo such
software. Were I to test it, I would just be able to select menus etc and
say whethe the program crashed or not. My input would be wasted unless the
point of the program was to teach rank novices the basics of midi and how
it is used and what it is used for.
If I were a musician who had no midi experience but needed assistance in
automatic composing and scoring (can midi do that kind of stuff?) than I
would fall into the "usefully inexperienced" category as I would at least
have a background in the proram's subject matter. My input would be valid
as a first-time software user of software that falls in my real of
expertise that is design to assist me with real world problems.
wmc
Wayne:
What I meant by "less qualified" was someone who is fairly new to a given
application or field of interest. I think input from beginners can be
quite useful to a developer.
I would also turn down the opportunity to beta-test software that I had no
idea how to apply. People with no background or useful interest in an
application shouldn't be sought out as beta-testers.
Wayne
Wayne:
I agree… having beta testers who are familiar with, but not expert
users, of a given productivity tool is very smart… I am such a person,
and really enjoy banging away at beta software and giving feedback from a
non-technical, average user point of view. If I were a developer, I know
that I would want feedback from a wide variety of testers. Khalid Aldoseri
and Steve Ahlstrom obviously use this approach to soliciting beta
testers… and their programs reflect it!
// Michael
\X/ …on AutoPilot
I neither own a PC or use Quattro.. I use 1-2-3 v2.3 at work. I'd bet
Quattro is better-behaved under Windows.
Wayne,
I, too, was very disappointed with the review of ProCalc that appeared in
Amazing Computing. In addition to the problems you mention, the charting
function is misleadingly described in the advertising. Structured graphic
output is not the same as the screen representation of the chart. Instead
of the nice cross-hatchings, etc., found in the screen representation of
the graphs, structured output uses various solid shades of color. If one
prints a pie chart with more than about five sections to a b&w or grayscale
printer, at least two of the sections will use the same shade. When I
asked Gold Disk technical support about this, they suggested that if I
wanted the structured graphic output to look like the screen
representation, I could export the graph to ProDraw and edit it! How
convenient….Bah…That is only one of several other problems that I've
ragged on GD about several months ago and which haven't been addressed yet.
I wish I could get my money back.
Darron
– via Whap!
Darron,
I tried getting my money back, but no dice. I also wanted a direct line to
the author, but they said no. Now I have it, though. He wrote an article
for Amazing (a rather good one on dithering). So now I am going to send
him the collection of messages and correspondence I've collected regarding
ProCalc.
wmc
Wayne (and John);
I would like to put my two cents in on the spreadsheet situation on the
Amiga…
I really needed a spreadsheet badly. I asked around on CIS, and found,
to my dismay, that there did not appear to be anything on the Amiga that
would fill the bill. Soooo…I aquired a PC clone, Windows 3.1, and Excel
4.0.
Of course, this was at much great expense that it would have cost to by
something useable on the Amiga, which I would have greatly preferred to do.
Oh well.
Jonathan
– via Whap!
Johnathan,
I am using Platinum WOrks while waiting for a decent spreadsheet to come
along. That is essentially Analyze!. It works O.K. for the accounting I
have to do for an aircraft I have leased to a flight school. BUt I am
starting a small business and need something that will also provide direct
or by a link, the ability to generate 4 basic reports on a periodic basis.
I have quattro Pro sitting in the garage with nothig to run it on. (as a
consultant I had my own software, the customer supplied the machine,
usually government issue…). So now I'm hoping my wife will want a laptop
to so her work at home instead od going in to work on weekends. Then I'll
do my accounting on a PC Clone too. What a waste.
wmc
Wayne,
What ever happened to Khalid Aldoseri? He was talking late last year (I
think) about an undercover spreadsheet he was developing that he said would
blow doors off the competition and be the envy of other platforms. He was
supposed to be beta testing it and hadn't decided how to release it.
He produced some quality PD and seemed credible in past claims, so I wonder
where he went to?
*** jd
John,
He's in AmigaTech CO almost nightly. He has a spreadsheet that is in beta
test. Other than that, you'll have to ask him.
-sja
Steve,
Too bad he didn't ask for beta-testers…it could have saved me the expense
of aquiring Excel and the clone that it is running on…I really needed a
spreadsheet badly, and everyone here told me that Amiga offerings were full
of sheet….:)
Jonathan
– via Whap!
Jonathan:
If you need a spreadsheet for work, and need to rely on it, you don't wnat
to use something in a beta stage that changes quite regularly. That
wouldn't be very productive. Software in Beta can be very flaky, and you
might actually trust it too much just to find out that there is a fatal
flaw in the version you are using to base your financials on!
Michael
Michael,
Good point about beta spreadsheets….
Jonathan
– via Whap!
John,
I'm still here…. I've been watching the messages quietly, not wanting to
cause a major message thread. (grin)
I've been working on it for a long time now… it's close to completion. I
don't want to release anything half-done, I'm sure you understand.
Khalid.
Just FYI…
Here is another person quietly watching and ready to pounce on the first
quality Amiga spreadsheet he can identify. 🙂
Khalid,
As a (somewhat frustrated) Superplan user I'll buy the first Amiga
spreadsheet which elicits a good response from the well-informed people on
this forum.
Rod
– via Whap!
Khalid,
You can add me to the list of replies you have got here on this, slowly
expanding thread. 🙂
A good spread-sheet is on my wanted list.
I would be using it for model aircraft designing and my Dad may also be
interested for land surveying. I have also got a series of articles in a
magazine called Sport Aviation, by the leading Aerodynamicist in the USA
in which he used a spreadsheet to design his homebuilt aircraft.It used
Lotus 123, but was intended to be generic. His name escapes me at the
moment though.
BTW saw you in the CIS magazine.
Laurie Carroll AKL NZ
Amiga-Via Falnet.APb
Laurie,
How does one go about designing an aircraft using a spreadsheet? Is it just
handling the math computations needed to calculate stress points, wing
loading, dihedral angle, weight & balance, etc? Not in the mechanical
drawing of it?
Chris
John,
I don't know. I haven't heard or seen anything from him in several months.
I certainly would be very interested in any spreadsheet he did.
wmc