#Metaball Tips
29 messages in this thread
Ok, here's my rookie question before I call it a day and a half. How DO you
keep the face count down when using Metaballs, and still keep a reasonable
level of detail? The mesh I am trying to create has the smallest sphere scaled
to 5% of the largest one. Is this over some kind of limit that Metaballs has?
The smaller spheres are like toes on a foot. With 96000+ faces, the face size
is still to large to keep the toes from all blending in together. I read that
3DS has a 64,000 face limit. What happens when you exceed that? I've rendered
over 100,000, and get no errors, or anything obvious on the image. The last
render, I checked "Simplify Mesh", and the face count was still over 96,000. I
usually do everything with the unit setup in the architectural mode, does this
make a difference? On that note, if you merge meshes that were created in
different setup modes, will that cause a problem?
The way the program defaults the mesh to the name META and the material having
to be named METABALL, is there a way to have more than one MB object in the
same scene?
Thanks, Terry
Terry,
In the Digimation version of metaballs you can have more than one
metaballs object in a scene. You can also have many sub groups. The face count
goes way down if you convert the metaballs to a mesh object, run optimize and
then run the animation using bones. Of course the object will no longer "flow"
like a liquid at this point. What kind of object are you trying to animate?
Take a look at the Scripting library and read about what some people are doing
with metaballs and keyscripting. This might be the way to go.
Sanford
Sanford,
I have the v. 2.0 upgrade on the way, and it is my understanding that it does
multiple objects in a scene. Besides, I'll probably be going with Organix soon
anyway.
>> The face count goes way down if you convert the metaballs to a mesh object,
run optimize and then run the animation using bones. <<
I guess I am going to have to experiment a little more with optimize. I had
tried it earlier on a few things and found it did not work as I thought it
would. I was under the impression that it would take the face count down as low
as it could without changing the details of the mesh. I learned however, that
it would take the face count down to one if I insisted by doing it over and
over. Of course, this changes the details of the mesh considerably. <g> I guess
I just have to find a comprimise somewhere.
The object I am working on now, is an organic shape (a little booger monster of
my on creation) animated with bones. I talked with Murph yesterday, and have
Meshpaint on the way. Maybe with that I can paint in some detail instead of
using a zillion reference spheres to get it.
I will check out the library you mentioned. I read Kyle's article about making
his face hugger, and that was a big help too. I also want to download seez.zip
(I beleive that was what it's called) to work with mespaint. Would you happen
to know where that is right off hand?
Thanks a lot for the advice, I can use all the help I can get.
Terry
Hi Terry,
<<..seez.zip?..>>
Please download…
File Info for SEEZ.ZIP
Section: IPAS Usage Contributor: 76702,413 Size: 24924
Submitted: 11/9/94 Type: Binary Accesses: 623
Title: Zbuffer IPAS IXP plugin for 3DSr4 from Yost Group
Keys: SEEZ ZBUFFER ACCESSOR IPAS IXP REQUIRES 3DSR4 YOST GROUP
This zip file contains SEEZ.IXP, a public domain IPAS routine by Tom Hudson of
the
Yost Group that will let you access the z-buffer inside of 3DSr4 for
interesting
compositing effects in the Video Post system. It also includes the source
code for the
routine (SEEZ.C) for IPAS developers to use as a learning aid for accessing the
z-buffer with their own applications.
Jonas,
That's what I was looking for.
Thanks a bunch, Terry
<< I was under the impression that it would take the face count down as low as
it could without changing the details of the mesh. I learned however, that it
would take the face count down to one if I insisted by doing it over and over.
Of course, this changes the details of the mesh considerably. <g> I guess I
just have to find a comprimise somewhere.
you can control how much optimiz remains true to the original details of the
mesh by using the angle function. An angle of 1 or 2 will make a mesh thats
hard to tell from the original when rendered. 3 and above result in loss of
mesh detail but reduce faces greatly. I use 2 a lot and redo it several times
with the optimiz from original box off. When the face count dosnt reduce any
more youve got the best mesh for that angle setting. If youve got the disk
space embed the original mesh so you can go back later if you need to.
Hope this helps
Ed
Edward,
Thanks a lot, BIG help. Slowly but surely, I'm making myself wade thru all
these tutorials.
Thanks again, Terry
Edward,
>> An angle of 1 or 2 will make a mesh that's hard to tell from the original
when rendered. <<
I have been using this with great success. The rendered image does indeed hold
it's detail well, while reducing the face count considerably. Very good tip,
thanks a lot. I must wonder though, does this mean that I am terribly
inefficient with the Metaball program when creating my original mesh?
Thanks again, I just *might* be able to get the rest of the booger modeled
within the 65k limit.
Terry
Terry
Thats the great thing about optimiz- one can model without worrying too much
about face count because it can be adjusted later.
Ed
Edward,
>> One can model without worrying too much about face count <<
It seems though, that I am in a catch-22 situation now. I can't "Mshape" the
mesh because I have exceeded the 65k number of faces. If I click continue at
the warning prompt, it just kicks me back out to the editor. How can I optimize
the mesh, if I can't create it? Is it possible to create different, seperate,
metaball meshes and then booly them together later?
I'm just about finished with this little creature, just the neck and head left.
But, these parts are going to require some detailing, so the face count is
probably going to go up pretty high.
Hoping you have an answer, as I read the sepuku ritual, Terry
>> I can't "Mshape" the mesh because I have exceeded the 65k <<
Try scaling down the entire scene. Smaller reference spheres should require
fewer faces.
– Dave
David,
>> Try scaling down the entire scene. <<
Wouldn't that be the same as increasing the face size during the Mshape
process? I guess, to get the detail I want, I'm going to have to split it up.
Make more than one object and then link them together later some way.
Thanks, Terry
David,
The scaling idea is saving the day. By doing some "selective" scaling, I am
able to keep pretty much the same overall proportions and keep a pretty high
level of detail. I can go in and make the critter a little less broad for
example, and use those gained faces for arms or face details.
Next, I start chopping toes and fingers if necessary.
Thanks for the idea, Terry
>> Next, I start chopping toes and fingers if necessary. <<
Taken out of context that sounds really scary! <g>
– Dave
David,
LOL! It's a motovational thing.
Terry
Terry,
another thing you can do is use the clipping box option to generate your mesh
in different pieces, then optimize each piece and boolean or attach them
together – I do this a lot.
-Kyle
Kyle,
>> Another thing you can do is use the clipping box…<<
I just reread the part of the manual that covers that. I'll need to experiment
a bit to answer some questions I have, but it sounds promising. Thanks for the
tip, I hope I can call on you again when I get ready to paint this booger.
Terry
Kyle, PMJI, but it seems you haven't been on for a while. Or do you mainly stay
in IPAS usage? Anyway, done any cool Metaball stuff lately? What do you think
of Danny Mercurios metaball modeller? Sounds like the mapping support is going
to be great. Take care.
DM
Terry
<<It seems though, that I am in a catch-22 situation now. I can't "Mshape" the
mesh because I have exceeded the 65k number of faces.
Are you controlling the face count with the face size slider? This should
enable you to make the most detailed sub 64k mesh possible with a little
experimentation.
Ed
Edward,
>> Are you controlling the face count with the face slider? <<
Yes, I just keep adding "1" until I get a permissable mesh. I think I have a
solution to the problem. I'm making up a script for the final render and
studying the camera shots. I'll just have to make more than one model. I think
with some planning I can put the detail where I need it. For example, if the
lower body is not in the shot, then I won't have it in the model. If a
particular sequence will be all frontal, then I'll take the back off of the
model. I can then use the faces to detail only what the camera is going to see.
It's going to be more work, but I knew coming in that this was going to be a
labor intensive business. I'm also starting to understand the importance of
storyboards now too. <g>
Thanks Ed, Terry
Terry,
It sounds like you are approaching answers for your problems.
I havn't seen seez.zip…I downloaded the first meshpaint demo, but it
was not very subtle and I havn't purchsed the program yet, until it has better
control available. I guess I'm spoiled by photoshop's tools.
Good luck,
Sanford
Sanford,
>> It sounds like you are approaching ansewrs to your problems <<
Yeh, I think I'm getting there. I also did a check with the scene info screen
and found something I suspected, to be true. When rendering my object, the
number of faces in the render dialog box must show the number of faces total in
the scene. Even though everything except the creature is hidden, the face count
still shows more faces than the scene info list for the creature object. Is
this indeed the case, that the render dialog box shows a face count total for
the scene, whether the objects are being rendered or not?
I ordered Meshpaint the other day, and will be getting a scanner soon. Most of
the scanners I've seen have photoshop bundled with them. So, I should be able
to compare the two programs soon.
Thanks for the time you took to help. Terry
Terry,
I believe the render box always shows the scene total faces…but I
will have to test it to see. I look at the scene information file to check on
each individual item.
Good luck
Sanford
>> How DO you keep the face count down when using Metaballs, and still keep a
reasonable level of detail? <<
I think that your only choice is to get Yost Disk 7 w/ and use Optimize to
reduce face count after you make the model.
– ej
Ernie,
Thanks, I bought that when I bought 3DS. I just need a little more experience
with it to find the right amount for different mesh types.
I'm getting there, Terry
Danny's new Metaball modeler (OrganiX) will allow you to increase and decrease
the number of faces over time. He is using the Envelope code developed for
LenZFX. This allows the user to have direct control, ie… less faces farther
away and more faces for the close-up shots.
Lee
>>> How DO you keep the face count down when using Metaballs, and still keep a
reasonable level of detail? The mesh I am trying to create has the smallest
sphere scaled to 5% of the largest one.<<<
You should try the Optimize IPAS. It is VERY customizeable and offers all the
control you need to cut down on polygon count WITHOUT affecting the detail too
seriously. It's on the Yost IPAS disk #7.
-Phil
PentaGrafx Prods (http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~desm/)
Philippe,
Thanks. I have the IPAS you mentioned, and am getting better at predicting what
settings to use. I'm pretty new to all this, so I still have a lot of
experimenting to do. Now, if I can just make myself remember to use the HOLD
button every now and then, I'll be alright. <g>
Thanks again, Terry