#A2500 Questions
37 messages in this thread
***Continued from previous message***
The point is the company put an emphasis on getting me the Flicker Fixer.
If I exchange the whole system, I'll probably lose the FF and multi-sync
monitor. It's a matter of trade-offs. How valuable should the FF and
monitor be to me as opposed to increases in speed from a new accelerator
and hard drive? Should I give up the FF to gain these speed advantages, or
is my current system fast enough? If I just exchange the drive and
controller, I'll still have the FF and they'll probably still get me the
multi-sync monitor, but I'm not certain. Is there that much difference
between the 2090A and 2091 for me to go through all this trouble and bore
everyone with these long messages and my endless questions?
Please let me know what you think or if you have any suggestions of your
own that I have not listed. Remember, I'm getting a second internal floppy,
so I have to move the Rodime from the 3 1/2" drive bay anyway. The 2091
will enable me to mount the Quantum drive right on the card thereby freeing
up the drive bay for the second floppy.
Finally, I was told that all Amigas sold since the beginning of summer
came bundled with AmigaVision, but mine didn't. I was also told that the
DTP system that I got came bundled with DTP software, but I didn't get it.
Does anyone know about this?
Thanks so much for all your help.
Dom Fontana
Dom,
After reading all the messages in this thread, and since you asked for
opinions, I'd take the system, smile and say "thank you". There is no use
in causing bad feeling with a company I assume you'll want to do business
with again.
-sja
Steve,
That was good advice and I appreciate and value your opinion. However, the
services I have performed for the company have inured more to their benefit
than to mine. Remember, this was not a gift, but payment for services
rendered. If I didn't agree to accept the system in lieu of money, it would
have cost the company more, and I could have purchased whatever system I
wanted with the cash.
Do you care to give your opinion on the merits of the 2 drives and
controllers in question? It would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dom Fontana
Dom,
I'll pass on the merits of the 2 drives and the controller. The reason
is I have little experience with them. I use an _old_ 2090 controller. I
have 2 ST-506 HDs on it plus a SCSI. If I were to get a SCSI only
controller I'd have to get rid of the ST-506 drives or buy an adaptor for
them. Because of that I've not kept up with the pros and cons of various
controllers — I want to maintain ST-506 compatibility (at least until I
can afford to replace my 2 ST-506 HDs).
Steve,
Are you satisfied with the performance of the 2090?
Dom Fontana
In general, yes. It's a bit slow on the ST-506 drives (in the 200k per
second read range) but it's fine on the SCSI HD (in the 650k per second
range). Some of that speed difference can be accounted for in the speed of
the drives themselves. The ST-506 drives are 40ms average seek time, the
SCSI is 18ms.
Dominick,
Your problem arises from, I presume, a verbal contract which specified
that you would receive, in exchange for services rendered, an Amiga A2500.
The company with whom you had this agreement has met the terms of the
agreement, as what you have received is an A2500, albeit a discontinued
configuration of said machine. It is very possible (even probable) that
this company knew that they could get this machine at a very good price,
and based on that were willing to enter into this contract with you. You
assumed that this agreement implied more than it did, and were disappointed
when things came to light. Unless your contract explicitly stated a more
specific configuration of the promised machine, the obligation of this
company has been met, and you unfortunately are "stuck" with a very nice
machine, although not the "top of the line" as far as 2500's go.
To make my point, let's take a hypothetical case. I enter into an
agreement with a party who agrees to provide me with an Amiga computer in
exchange for my shoveling their driveway. With visions of sugar plums and
A3000's dancing in my head, I agree to the terms and proceed to shovel the
snow from their driveway. Upon completing my end of the agreement, I am
presented with the Amiga computer in the form of an A500C. But gee, I had
envisioned that I would be getting an A3000 for my efforts (of course, I
only expected the A3000-16/50, because I was being realistic). Did I get
shafted? I think not. I just blind-sided myself.
Just my opinion…
…BobR
White Wolf Productions
Bob,
Thanks for your reply. Your analogy was interesting, but incorrect. I
could have sent the co. my invoice for services rendered and been paid in
cash. I also agreed that after they got on their feet, that we would enter
into a more formal written retainer agreement, whereby I would only be paid
in cash. In this instance we agreed that I would bill them for the value of
my services, and they could pay me in goods of comparable value. They
preferred to make it computer goods, since they could get a developer's
discount from CBM. I didn't care if they got the system for free. They
would be credited with its value to me. We agreed on this somewhat
unorthodox approach, after having exchanged mutual favors. I acquiesced to
a verbal contract, knowing I was fully protected, since I had a lien on the
product of my services.
Originally, they were going to give me one of their A2500s, since they
were getting the A3000. I knew what that configuration was. It was a 68030
with a 20 Meg hard drive and no flicker fixer. When they still needed the
2500, I asked for a Tascam 688 MidiStudio. They weren't able to get a
discount from Tascam as anticipated, and that idea was scrapped. They then
said they'd get me a new machine and I asked for a 2500 with 3 Megs of Ram,
40 Meg hard drive, 2 floppies, and 1084S Monitor. They got me more than
that since I got a 680020, Flicker Fixer and multi-sync monitor to boot.
Certainly worth more than I had asked for. That's the crux of this dilemma.
The co. has advised me that they didn't know they were getting the 2090A.
The package deal from CBM simply stated "40-Meg Hard Disk Drive" on the
Developer's discount pricing list. The value of the system is more than I
requested. The issue is whether it's worth it to try and have CBM exchange
the 2090A for a 2091. Is their such a difference that it's really worth the
effort?
Dom Fontana
Dom:
I have a flickerfixer/multisync in my system, and I wouldn't part with them
at any cost! After using the FF for a while, I hated to go to my A500
anymore, and so I bought a special cable that allows me to use IBM style
monochrome monitors on it flickerfree. In other words, I'd rather give up
color on my second system than have flicker! My vote would be to take the
system as given, and if you really don't like the proformance of the
controller and/or 2620 card, you could always upgrade it like I mentioned
in an earlier message!
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike,
Good advice. So far, you're the only one to officially cast a vote. As it
stands now, the company is calling CBM tomorrow to try and exchange the
controller and drive. If they can't, I'll keep the system. My multi-sync
should be arriving any day now. Which one do you have? I'm getting the
Commodore monitor. Do you know if the supplied cable works with the FF. If
not, the co. will get me one from Redmond Cable.
Dom Fontana
In chilly New York City
Dom:
Yes, the supplied cable will work with the FF, along with an adapter that
should be supplied with the monitor. The 1950 monitor should also come with
another adapter that will allow you to hook it upto the 23pin connector as
well, and you might want to hang onto that, as when WB2.0 is released for
the 2000 you'll need to use that port with your multi sync to use the
interlaced productivity mode (640×800) if you want to do that. I have a
Tatung monitor, and it is the monitor (possibly just one of the monitors)
that was shipped by CBM with their DTP special machines. If you're thinking
of getting a bridgeboard, then you might want to look into getting a VGA
card, as you'll already have a multi-sync monitor. I have a 4 way switch
setup with position 1 as the FF, position 2 as IBM VGA Position 3 as
standard Amiga (23 pin) output, and pos 4 is empty. This setup works really
nice for me, and as I've said, if you've never used a flickerfixer, you'll
love it!
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike,
Thanks for the help. So I won't need to purchase a special cable from
Redmond. I can use the 1950 through either the FF port or standard video
port with the supplied cable and adapters, right? You can also use WB 2.0
with the FF in the other modes, right?
If you're using a video switcher, then you had to buy additional cables to
set it up. What would you recommend as a switcher? I might want to set it
so I can switch between the 1950 hooked up to the FF and the 1950 hooked up
to the video port. If I use the supplied cable and adapter to hook up the
FF to the switcher, then I would need another cable to hook up the video
port to the switcher, and another cable to hook up the switcher to the
monitor. Is this correct? If so, what cables would I need?
Dom Fontana
Dom:
Ok, to use a switchbox as you want, you'll first need a switchbox. most any
of the better (read that as more shielded) boxes will do. You should
probably decide now if you want to get an AB switch (2 ports) or ABCD (4
ports) unit, depending on if you plan to use a Bridgeboard/VGA card in the
future. Now, the cables you will need are as follows:
1 15 pin VGA to 9 pin (NEC style) cable 1 9 pin to 9 pin cable.
Thats all unless you add a VGA card to a bridgeboard, then you'd need an
additional 15 pin to 9 pin, or if you add an EGA card, you'd need a 9 pin
to 9 pin. I hope this helps. BTW, the way it would be setup is you'd plug
the monitors cable into the supplyed 15 to 9 adapter. then you'd plug that
into the switchboxes common connector. then the 9 pin to 9 pin would go
from FF to switchbox position A, and the 9 pin to 15 pin would go from
position B to the supplied 15 pin to 23 pin adapter. This would give you
the flickerfixer on A, and normal Amiga video on B.
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike,
Thanks for the help. Could you recommend a particular switcher?
Dom Fontana
Dom,
You're probably not going to like this, but:
I presume you didn't specify exactly what the company was to get
you, from your messages…it would appear that your only specific was the
Flicker Fixer.
I presume some discussion was held on generalities…else you'd
have gotten an A2000 with flicker fixer.
From the content of your messages…it would appear that you
requested an A2500 with flicker fixer. You got that.
I haven't any idea who told you the A2090a "crashes a lot", the
card doesn't crash at all. I have yet to see a complaint from someone who
said simply having the A2090a in the machine caused crashes (and replacing
it with anohter controller "fixed" the crashing). That doesn't mean it
hasn't occurred…I just haven't seen it occur.
Yes, as a rule, SCSI drives are faster than ST-506 drives, but
there are some glaring exceptions. But even with that, unless you're doing
very heavy work on the hard drive, and quite often…you'll never notice
the difference. Reading a 200k file in 1/2 a second vs 1 second simply
isn't noticeable to the average person.
if the system you got meet whatever it was you specified…accept
it. If it didn't, then your gripe is with the company that bought it for
you.
If you don't like it, sell it and buy what it is you really want.
Don
Don,
As it stands now, the co. is calling CBM tomorrow to try and exchange the
controller and drive. If not, I'll just keep the system and enjoy it. My
major concern was that Louis Wallace had reviewed the 2090A some time ago
in one of the Amiga magazines and hated it. He said not to buy an A2500
simply because of it. That was my major concern. Do you know if the 2090A
was revised since it was first introduced? Maybe the later models had the
problems corrected.
Dom Fontana
Dom,
Personally, I doubt that CBM will take any part of the computer
back. It was a package deal, at a special price.
I have some recollection of Lou's article. My memory of it was
when compared to a few of the other drive controllers on the market, it
wasn't the best of the lot when price and performance were considered.
However, I don't recall him hating the board, nor anything close to that.
I also seem to remember that one of the competative boards that he
at first deemed to be a better value, ended up a poorer value when he
re-tested it. My memory is that the specific test program he used took
advantage of that specific board's design…and that real world figures for
it were significantly lower.
Perhaps Lou will see this thread and comment…the above is my
memory of what he said…I certainly could be wrong.
No, to the best of my knowledge, there is/was no revision of the
board itself. There was a revision of the software (hddisk) but that was
years ago.
As to my own personal opinion…I've got an A2090 (the original,
not the A model). I've got both SCSI and ST-506 drives attached to it.
While tests show the SCSI drives to be faster…in every day use, I can't
tell the difference.
As to the A2091…it has a serious bug in it's current form. It
can NOT handle 2 or more SCSI drives both attempting access at the same
time (such as a copy between the drives). It's a problem with the Western
Digital SCSI chip on the board, and CBM is working on a fix, but don't
expect it to be done for a few months yet. Supposedly, the fix, when
available will be considered an in-warranty repair. This information
appeared to be "official" but I haven't been able yet to confirm it as
official.
Don
Don,
In effect you're saying I should keep the 2090A and Rodime drive because
there's really nothing wrong with them. I may very well just do that. As
for Lou Wallace, he said the best recommendation he could make was not to
buy the 2090A, as opposed to stating which one to buy, when he tested
various controllers. As a corollary, he said don't buy the A2500, simply
because it came with the 2090A. That was the main reason for my concern.
Dom Fontana
Don, I do recall the article the same way dom does, recommend against
buying a 2000HD or 2500 because of the drive. Is it possible that the brand
of hard drive itself changed from something to Rodime?
— Ethan
Ethan,
There was once a suggestion that Conner drives would come with the
A2500, but as far as I know, the first production units came with Rodime
drives and later were changed to Quantum drives.
Don
Don, I don't think the 2500 is currently shipping with Quantums because
the 2500 is still coming with 40MB drives and the 3000 is coming with 50MB.
— Ethan
Ethan,
I believe you are mistaken about the Quantum drives and the 2500. I'm
pretty sure that I read that Quantum had discontinued the 40M drives, so
Commodore went to the nearest equivalent, the 50M ones. This would be for
both the 2500 and the 3000.
Betty
Betty:
When I got my 2500/30 it came with a 40 meg Quantum which I swapped
for a 105 meg Quantum (+ $$$). This was during the 1000 trade in.
Clint <VRLI>
But Betty, that is exactly why I don't think the 2500 uses the Quantum,
and the 3000 does. The 3000 now comes with a 50MB drive standard, but the
2500 comes still with only a 40MB. I know that the 2500 I used to have
(020) was a Rodime. Perhaps CBM's literature was wrong but the educational
price list (dated August 15) lists the 5MB ram in 2500 as standard and the
50MB HD in the 3000 as standard but still shows a 40MB in the 2500s.
Perhaps CBM is unloading leftover stock.
— Ethan
The 40M drive in my 2500 is a Quantum. Don't know what is in the current
2500's. I bought mine in January.
Betty
Dom, with all due respect to Lou Wallace who I know also follows this
forum, I completely disagreed with him on that article. As I say, I owned
that A2500 and had the GVP 40MB hardcard and although the latter was faster
the difference was not very noticable, at least not by human terms. I'm
sure that a performance program would give a numerical difference. To say
that people shouldn't buy a 2500 because of the drive is a very strong
statement. 25ms is quite fast.
Also, it seems most likely that the company bought a highly discounted
model on the developers program.
— Ethan
Ethan,
I'm pretty sure that's the case. The company must have a gotten a good
price on the system, and I'm glad for them. I can live without the 68030,
although an A2500/30 would have been nice, but they never should have
gotten the 2090A. The funny thing is they say they bought the system within
inquiring as to the model of the controller. I believe them, but I found it
odd that a software developer would not inquire as to exactly what they
were getting.
I got a copy of the CBM receipt today and I'm scheduled to speak to CBM
tomorrow to try and exchange the 2090A and Rodime drive for a 2091 and
Quantum drive. Then I'll be truly happy. If I can't exchange it, I'll keep
what I have and enjoy it. What will bother me though, is the thought that
CBM put one over on the company.
The receipt from CBM doesn't itemize the system. It simply states, "Amiga
2500 Desktop Publishing Workstation". Originally, Dave Mannich from CBM
said that he would honor whatever the receipt stated. Since the receipt is
silent on that point, my argument is that CBM should have advised that they
were selling a discontinued configuration. The company had every right to
assume they were getting the latest version, since you would get the latest
version from a dealer, and they weren't told anything to the contrary by
CBM.
I'll keep you posted.
Dom Fontana
Dom:
Have you spoken to Dave about getting the DTP software that should have
come with your system? I think it came with ProPage, and ProDraw, and these
are really good programs that you should grab if possible.
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike,
I spoke to Dave and took care of everything. I have a one year warranty;
he's sending me the DTP software, Amigavision, and all the manuals for the
individual peripherals included with my system.
Dom Fontana
Dom –
I believe that the "Amiga 2500 Desktop Publishing Workstation"
configuration may pre-date the introduction of the 2091 disk controller.
Since I don't believe that CBM is selling this configuration anymore to the
general public, you may have received the latest version that that
particular package had when it was being actively marketed. Also, after
following this message thread, I'm not sure which one is the better
controller the 2090A (not to be confused with the 2090) or the 2091. The
2090A allows you to control both ST506 and SCSI drives, while the 2091
controls only SCSI drives. In addition, there do appear to be current
'bugs' in the 2091 – I've recently heard of difficulties in controlling
more than one drive. I have no personal experience with this aspect as I
only have one drive with my 2091.
Jeff Schweiger
Jeff,
After this ongoing thread in which I received much help, which I
appreciate, the FINAL VERDICT IS:
I'll be keeping my 2090A and Rodime drive!
I personally spoke to CBM today and apparently the order form the company
sent to them with their check, listed the 2090A specifically. Although the
order form was prepared by CBM, the company did see it before they ordered
the system. Accordingly, CBM is not at fault. CBM is sending me a copy of
the order form for confirmation.
I only wish the company had told me they ordered the 2090A. It would have
saved me a lot of time and trouble. The whole crux of my argument was that
CBM pulled a fast one by sending an old controller. CBM is totally
blameless and the company got what they ordered.
I'm bring the system to my computer dealer tomorrow to have the following
done:
(1) Have the Rodime drive mounted in the 5 1/4" drive bay with a mounting
adapter; (2) Purchase and have installed a second internal floppy; (3)
Purchase and have installed the Datalink 2000 modem with MNP-5 and Send-fax
capability; (4) Purchase the HP Deskjet 500 Printer; and (5) Purchase
Quarterback.
I'll be ready to roll soon.
I'd like to thank everyone for all their help in this thread.
Dom Fontana
Sounds just great, Dom. I'm delighted that you have the whole thing
settled and can start enjoying your new computer. And we look forward to
the software you're going to turn out on it, too.
Betty
Betty,
I know I'm going to be entering a whole new world. I suspect that most
people add one item at a time and enjoy it before upgrading again. I'm
going to have the added benefit of 3 Megs of Ram, an accelerator, 40 Meg
HD, and Flicker Fixer with a multiscan monitor simultaneously, and I'll be
using all of these enhancements for the first time. I don't know where to
start. It's like when you got your first remote control TV years ago. It
seemed like a real luxury, but eventually, you could never go back to the
old method of manually changing channels. I know I'll feel the same way
after using the new system for awhile.
I use the computer alot for Midi/Music applications. Maybe I'll write a
song called "Ode to Betty Clay".
Thanks for all your help along the way.
Dom Fontana
Look forward to hearing the 'Ode'. 🙂
Betty
Dom, it sounds like a misunderstanding. Commodore had a Desktop
Publishing Bundle before the 2500/30 I believe in which they included a
number of things. There is no way that someone seeing a label which only
says 'Amiga 2500 DTP Workstation' would not ask what exactly it included.
Well, whatever. It is done. Good luck whichever way things go.
— Ethan
Ethan,
My client tells me now that the only system that CBM offered that included
a FF was the one they got me. They also got me the new CBM 1950 MultiScan
Monitor for use with the FF. If they had gotten me the A2500/30, which
comes without the FF, then they would have gotten me the 1084S monitor.
They figured I would rather have the FF and 1950, with the 2090A, rather
than the 2091, but without the FF and 1950. All things considered, they are
right.
I just dropped my system off today at a computer shop to have the hard
drive mounted in the 5 1/4" drive bay, and I'm having a second floppy
mounted in the 3 1/2" bay. I also ordered the Datalink 2000 Modem, HP
Deskjet 500, and Quarterback. Very shortly, I'll be up and running and I
know I'll enjoy the system. I also have a number of buyers for my A500
System, so things have worked out fine.
Dom Fontana