#D.Pleasance Baffler
49 messages in this thread
Everytime I read D.Pleasance stuff I get excited that the Amiga will
survive (him talking about Amiga on a PC card is great proof he's at least
awake!) I was a little confused by his saying that future Amigas would be
all RISC- that AAA will be canned because the OS would take 18 months
DOES HE THINK PORTING AMIGADOS TO RISC IS GOING TO BE EASY?? Is he
planning a "Manhattan Project" for RISC AmigaDos?? Or is there something
more sinister afoot?? I'm not technical at all, but these statements are
baffling- any smart peeps out there care to shed some light?
Mike
What Pleasance said about AAA is only parroting what former engineers at
Commodore have been saying for months (even before the liquidation). The
chipset is, for all practical purposes, complete. However, it will take about
18 months to fully integrate it into the OS so that there is a high level of
software compatibility. According to Dave Haynie, in an informal conference he
participated in on Portal several months ago, he stated that AAA has been in
development for so long, was held up innumerable times because of management's
unwillingness to devote R&D capital on it (they were too busy funding CDTV and
the A600) that it is now no big deal when compared to some of the high end
graphics cards available in the PC world. He said it still has a _few_ great
advantages but would they still be advantages in 18 months when there is OS
software support for the hardware?
I have spoken with a few people who claim to have seen protos of RISC based
Amigas (or claim they personally know someone who has seen them) that were
running AmigaDOS. Do I believe them? No. But, who knows?
The question I have for Mr. Pleasance, if he is successful in acquiring
Commodore's assets, is, if AAA is out, what graphics subsystem is going to be
used in his RISC based Amigas? Off the shelf PC cards?
I think the most telling comment made in his interview with the Bickerstaffs is
that he wants to have what he called "forums", in the UK and US immediately
after he gains control (if). Of course, he means something like a developers
conference with hardware/software producers, probably dealers and other
marketers. From what I read into what he's saying, he wants the future
direction of the technology to be decided by users and developers. So, for now,
he may not have a clear idea of how/if the technology will evolve … he wants
to gain control of the technology and let the users direct the future.
>> …if AAA is out, what graphics subsystem is going to be used in his
>> RISC based Amigas? Off the shelf PC cards?
That's one of the first things that went through my mind too. I suppose
they could put the AGA chipset on a card for now or even just use one of
the current third-party boards; then when they have a new chipset ready,
they can put it on a card too. Of course, that course of action would
require either another rewrite of the OS or a driver setup (a la WinDoze).
About his wanting to have the Amiga's future decided by users — I, for
one, wouldn't mind seeing new graphics chips that are capable of the stuff
some of these new game systems can do. Wouldn't it be nice to have
high-speed, shaded, texture-mapped polygon rendering functions built into
the hardware — especially for, say, 3D animation previews in real time?
(And 24-bit is a must.)
– Jim, on AutoPilot!
Jim,
The graphics upgrades to any new Amigas would be great, but I hope they
improve the audio, too. I'd like to see 44.1KHz/48KHz 16-bit, 8 track,
surround sound stereo, direct-to-disk recording built in. 😎
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
I'm with you, Jim.
8 bit sound stinks. I'd like to do something more than run sequencers
with my Amiga. Perhaps if pleasance is truly guided by the market (and if, and
if…) we might see something like a DSP. That sounds like a much more
reasonable project than RISCing ADOS (though I'd like to see that too, and
while they're at it…)
-John M. Vreeland in Virginia
"The road that stretches out before the feet of a man is a challenge to his
heart long before it tests the strength of his legs."
Who cares about stinking music audio? I want a DSP for ISDN, v.34,
advanced voice synthesis and recognition, etc.
>Who cares about stinking music audio? I want a DSP for ISDN, v.34,
>advanced voice synthesis and recognition, etc.
Same here!
Bob Comer
Cheyenne, Wyoming U.S.A.
"I want a DSP for ISDN, v.34, advanced voice synthesis and recognition, etc."
I believe the new PowerMacs have a DSP, right? I know they were going to put
the 3210 in new machines. Anyway, I know Apple ported VCOS (AT&T's DSP OS) to
the Mac (no small feat).
I didn't know about the Apple having VCOS (I used to have a few pounds of
manuals for it, I was getting ready to do testing for our port), but if
they are using a real DSP in the PowerMacs, I'm impressed. Guess I should
pay more attention…
Dale (& Paul),
I believe only the "AV" designated Macs have the DSP and the regular
PowerMacs do not. I've found Apple's materials to be vague.
Malcolm
Dale,
> Who cares about stinking music audio? I want a DSP for ISDN, v.34,
advanced voice synthesis and recognition, etc.
Yeah, that, too. I want both. 😎
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
Hi Dale,
re:
>>I want a DSP for ISDN, v.34, advanced voice synthesis and recognition, etc.
And I want a friendly 2001 Space Odyssey (HAL clone) to explain those friggin'
GURU messages to me!!!
<Grin>
– Dave (no pun intended…)
Yes, 8-bit is outdated. But let's remember that it still beats a lot of
PC's for pure quality in the 8-bit samples. Have you listened to the
.WAV's? Whenever I dl one to listen to, the definition seems muddy to the
ear when compared to 8SVX. Until they built better samplers and players,
the Amiga's 8-bit sound is still tops with me.
When I get Amiga .MOD's from PC BBS's, and talk to the Sysop's, all have
expressed the desire to have their PC .MOD's sound as good.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Imagine and Imagemaster R/t!
Vance,
> Yes, 8-bit is outdated. But let's remember that it still beats a lot
of PC's for pure quality in the 8-bit samples.
I don't think that matters. It's still not pro-quality sound. Maybe for
a hobbyist, the Amiga's 8-bit sound is okay, but for me, it just doesn't
cut it.
I'm suggesting that if there ever is another Amiga model, that they
upgrade the audio qualities to keep pace with the video improvements.
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
You took my comment out of context. I do support better audio for the
Amiga, I was stating however, that the for 8-bit, the Amiga's sound
quality stacked up well against the PC equivalent.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Imagine and Imagemaster R/t!
> Yes, 8-bit is outdated. But let's remember that it still beats a lot of
> PC's for pure quality in the 8-bit samples. Have you listened to the…
Absolutly !
> ear when compared to 8SVX. Until they built better samplers and players,
> the Amiga's 8-bit sound is still tops with me.
Well, this attitude has brougt the AMIGA to the point where it is now…
We could have had 64bit zorro, 40Mhz processors a long time.
The Amiga3000 was 32bit 25Mhz for a long time, even the floppies where
only double density. They never impoved to 50Mhz.
Now with Amiga4000:
everybody was on 64bit accept Amiga, MACs have DSP for quite a while, and
whats the problem whith 16 Bit sound.
If you stand still in development, its actually a step backward!
If you stay cheap in development, customers expect it to be cheaper every
time, so you are backing up again. And there goes INNOVATION !
– yours truly
* Derek *
John,
> I'm with you, Jim.
I'm glad we agree on the Amiga's sound, but my name is Dominick. 😎
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
8-Track!?!
🙂
Dale,
> 8-Track!?!
Yes, like the AD516 card and not like the old cartridge tape players.
😎
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
>surround sound stereo
Surround sound is fairly easily produced in software anyway, and is used
already in some programs designed for the original Paula hardware (e.g. D.A.S.
MODPlayer/DeliTracker).
If you mean a surround _decoder_, this would require 3 separate output
channels. Do you think this is likely? It seems like a _very_ minority
requirement. External surround decoders are (relatively) cheap and readily
available already.
I agree with you on the other points, though (decent quality 8+ channel 16bit
is a must, I reckon). Perhaps built-in MIDI, too, as it's cheap to implement
(and having it built in would avoid tying up a serial port as many interfaces
do at the moment).
My audible 0.02 worth,
Mat.
Michael,
I meant having surround sound stereo either in firmware or software,
not having a separate decoder. I know some of the latest game consoles
allow this with the proper software. I'm not aware if the current Amiga
hardware allows this, but I haven't heard much talk about it, so I figured
it had to be added in the future.
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
One of the UK mags mentioned a new chip that would be configured to
replace the AAA. I forgot the name though and I don't have the mag, I saw
the article in a magazine rack of the mags. Anyhow, it seems like they
have something in mind.
My impression of the forums was that he was wanting to show that his
company would be more open to outside ideas, unlike the old CBM. If that
is the case, it is a good idea.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Imagine and Imagemaster R/t!
I missed this one- is it a current chip, or one of those "Jetsons" Cray on
a chip things that is being talked about?
Mike
Nope. This chip that was mentioned, they said it is on the market right
now. I just wish I could remember the name.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Imagine and Imagemaster R/t!
If we once again have managers deciding directions of technology (no AAA,
all RISC, etc.) without even consulting the best engineers, how is what we
have any better than what we had with Mehdi?
Dale L. Larson Intangible Assets Manufacturing (info@iam.com)
"That's the best part about being crazy. You see things no one else can see."
I've read a few times in the past month, Pleasance mentioning Lew
Eggebrecht, with the implication that he'll be involved. Lew knows what
he's talking about, doesn't he?
Mike
Lew is a pretty reasonable guy. He started off on the wrong foot, but he
was willing to learn and, given the constraints of the environment, he did
a pretty good job. You've got to remember, though, that the real job of a
VP of engineering is more managerial than technical, and should be more a
matter of vision than of specification.
Entirely independent of the above, though, anyone speculating on Lew's
involvement in the future of the Amiga is probably overestimating it, for
reasons I can't go into.
Pleasance has been consulting some engineers … to Scala's consternation,
some of the former engineers have been contacted by Pleasance to see if
they'd be interested in working for Amiga International.
Rumor mill says that CBM UK has recently placed some large orders for
harddrives and monitors.
-sja
Calling someone on the phone and asking "hey, is AAA worth keeping, is
RISC practical, and are you interested in a job with AI?" isn't what I had
in mind. Having a real plan with some kind of preliminary outline on
specs (generated by engineers) was more like it…
Yes, but you have to get the engineers to do the preliminary outline on
specs and if all the engineers feel the way you do, then it'd be a
Catch-22 situation.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Imagine and Imagemaster R/t!
Any new Amiga should include PCI ports (goodbye Zorro). Support for this in the
OS via RTG and maybe even RTS (ReTargetable Sound) would make AAA redundant.
Why make a new chipset when any Off-the-shelf. high-end PC graphics card will
do? This isn't far-fetched. I read about it somewhere (possibly in an
interview with David Pleasance or Lew Eggbrecht).
>> Why make a new chipset when any Off-the-shelf, high-end PC graphics
>> card will do?
Boy! First we get people saying that Amiga should run NT. Now you want
it to use PC video and sound. Do you guys really want to see Amiga
revived and improved or do you just want a RISC PC with a checkmark?!
"Will do" for who, anyway? Not me.
– Jim, on AutoPilot!
For most of our needs, the accelerated graphics chips available for PCs do
great — up to 24-bit color in 1280×1024 with better speed than a
256-color Amiga workbench. Sure, it can't do NTSC, and there are lots of
neat animation tricks it can't do, but I'm not a video guy or a graphics
nut.
Unless you have specialized needs, the only thing wrong with
state-of-the-art PC graphics chips are the PC operatings systems. 🙂
… And coming soon, they'll have built-in OpenGL graphics chips too. I'd
love to see that on my Amiga.
PMFJI Dale,
I can hardly agree that the accelerated graphics chips available for
PC's do great. I have to use "Local Bus Video" every day and it
absolutely sucks. Screen redraws can take forever and a day and I am
running in a 256 color mode at work and on my Amiga. I really do not
think my needs are special but compared to just about any PC accelerated
graphics chip set AGA still blows it away in terms of response time.
Besides most PC's experience their bottlenecks on the bus with most of
them still operating at a MAXIMUM of 1/2 the clock of the CPU (keeping in
mind that I am discounting PCI, EISA and VLB).
I do AGREE with your statement in regards to PC operating systems.
Regards,
Mike
….Now back to our regularly schedueled program 🙂
Just Multitasking Operating Systems AmigaDos & OS/2.
(By "our needs," I presume you mean those of your company?)
A PC with accelerated video may suffice for your work, Dale, but what is
it that you do? If you run compilers, spreadsheets, etc., then you
obviously don't need the Amiga's top-notch graphic performance. But there
are many applications which _do_ need that performance, such as video,
graphics, and games (which are probably the top three reasons people buy
Amigas). Heck, fast PC's with accelerated video are just barely catching
up to the consoles (watch 'em get left in the dust come '95).
If the next Amiga to come out is an NT box with a Diamond Stealth card,
then the Amiga really will be dead.
– Jim, on AP!
Many people need mega-pixel color displays. 800×600 doesn't cut it,
certainly not while flickering. They need cheap monitors (SVGA), not
overpriced obsolete 14" multiscans. On the Amiga, getting 1024×800 in
color costs nearly as much as buying a new PC!
Like I said, I'm not a video guy. I said that PC graphics are lousy for
video stuff. Or flashy graphics stuff. But the Amiga is lousy for
general purpose display — it is good primarily for video and flashy
graphics.
I do agree that having flicker-free high resolutions in 24 bit and
compatibility with SVGA monitors are very desirable, if not necessary,
traits. But who says you can't get "mega-pixel color displays" with
custom graphics hardware? SGI's probably got the meggiest-pixel displays
you can get — and their systems use custom chips.
If the Amiga developers _have_ to choose between video/flashy graphics and
general purpose display graphics, I'd take the flashy stuff anyday. <g>
If I want to run PC-like applications with PC graphic performance, I'll
buy them for my PC. If that's all I can get on a new Amiga, I'll stick
with my AGA.
True, it's going to cost a lot to either make a new chipset from the ashes
of AAA or to license someone else's custom chips (please don't), but I
think it's well worth it. Although I wouldn't mind an interim solution —
AGA or higher-end video board standard while AAAA is under development.
– Jim, on AP!
SGI boxes also cost several times more than I can afford to pay for my
computers. Custom chips cost big bucks both to design and to produce.
Amigas also cost a lot more than they should for what they deliver —
comparable PCs have been much cheaper throughout the 90's, and comparable
Macs have been cheaper for a couple of years.
What is the point of waiting 18 months for AAA to get improved resolution?
It is available off-the-shelf today. If you really insist on the
advanatages of the Amiga chipset (and there should be some machines which
have it), why not have a hybrid machine? You could put AGA and a PC
graphics chip (or the capability for each) on every
machine. The additional cost should be under $150 user cost, maybe way
under.
Again, I think you are grossly underestimating the performance of the
graphics chips available. They perform crappy on crappy PCs running
crappy software. They are not inherently crappy.
Could someone who owns an Amiga video board like the Picasso or Retina or
whatever please speak up and tell us how you find the performance of PC
graphics chips on an Amiga system running Amiga software?
I was adamatly against PC video on the Amiga when Sydnes and Eggebrecht
brought it up several years ago. It has gotten so cheap and somewhat
better, and I've gotten so sick of waiting, that I can't think of any
rational reason to oppose it at this point.
I wasn't telling you to go buy an SGI; I just meant that you can have
super high resolution graphics and custom chips — no tradeoff required.
Actually, I think a hybrid graphics system would be a very good idea. (I
was going to suggest it myself yesterday, but I couldn't get my thoughts
in order.) It would provide the best of both worlds for minimal
additional cost (as long as you don't have to buy 4MB VRAM).
Yes, I know that the new PC video chips are faster. I'm always reading
about how much faster Retina Z3- or Picasso-based Emplants run than AGA-
based ones. Plus, I've seen a VESA video-equipped 486SX/33 outrun an SVGA
486DX2-66 on WinDoze (not the best comparison, but it still proves the
point). I just don't want to sacrifice the Amiga's other great features
for improved Workbench graphic speed.
How much harder do you think it would be to implement an SGI- or Sega-like
polygon engine in the next chipset (assuming there is one)? (I know STB
is planning a 3D graphics board for the PC, so….)
– Jim, on AutoPilot!
Jim,
> But there are many applications which _do_ need that performance,
such as video, graphics, and games (which are probably the top three
reasons people buy Amigas).
Possibly, but those are NOT the top three reasons that people buy
computers in general. That's why the Amiga was never a big seller. I've
consistently read that the top three computer applications are games, word
processors, and spreadsheets.
Also, I never bought the Amiga for video and graphics. People stress
that now because those are the Amiga's strong points, but the fact is that
the Amiga's strong points don't appeal to the large majority of the
computer-buying public; especially in the U.S. I bought the Amiga as a
general purpose computer and unfortunately it never became that. It has
always been a niche computer, at best. A great computer; but a niche
computer nonetheless.
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
>> > But there are many applications which _do_ need that performance,
>> such as video, graphics, and games (which are probably the top three
>> reasons people buy Amigas).
>> Possibly, but those are NOT the top three reasons that people buy
>> computers in general.
Maybe so, but tossing the custom chips and putting in a VGA-style
framebuffer graphics board certainly isn't going to bring more games, word
processors, and spreadsheets to the platform. (That would be the one nice
thing about being able to run NT — no one would have to worry about not
being able to get an Amiga version of something.)
– Jim, on AutoPilot!
I have no desire to see the Amiga turned into a PC with a checkmark. I just
happen to believe that the character & power of the Amiga isn't in the
Hardware, but is instead in the OS. I believe that any conversion to NT would
spell the true death of the Amiga. The sound Cards available for PCs are far
cheaper and more flexible than almost anything out for the Amiga. And Graphics
cards Will be much easier to implement into the OS via RTG than any new chipset
would be. Above all I am An Amiga e [D [D Enthusiast and PCs make me ill. But
we must face the fact that the system architechture of the PC makes it much
easier to Upgrade than the Amiga. If the Amiga wasn't so dependant on its
custom chips, I believe that it would be able to do far more than any other
platform on the planet.
Ah, good. I'm glad to see I mischaracterized you as a PC fan. PC's make
me ill too, Mark. 😛 But I do have to disagree on some points.
While PC sound boards may be cheaper and more flexible than Amiga sound
boards…look at what they are designed for. PC sound cards are made
primarily to give a little life to games. All the Amiga boards I can
think of (AD1012, AD516, Toccata-16, etc.) are designed primarily to give
professional-quality, multi-track, disk-based audio-for-video or pro audio
capabilities, which probably accounts for their relative inflexibility.
Amiga 8-bit audio is still better than anything I've heard off my
SoundBlaster 16.
If the Amiga weren't so dependent on its custom chips, it would not be
half the computer it is today. If it weren't for the custom chips,
Commodore probably would not have sold any computers since they would then
have had nothing over Apple or IBM. The chips are what let my A1200 do
better animation and play higher-quality games than a video-accelerated
486-66.
Before you say, "I know that, but their usefulness has expired," take a
look at what the custom chips in the game consoles of 1991-1994 can do.
You probably would be hard-pressed to get a PCI video-equipped P5-90 to
keep up with a Super NES or (especially) a 3DO or a Jaguar at graphics.
Sega's 32X add-on for the Genesis (due out in November) also looks good.
And next year, we'll (supposedly) be seeing Nintendo's SGI-based Ultra 64,
a 64-bit upgrade for 3DO, the Sony PlayStation, and possibly Sega's Saturn
(the preliminary specs of which I can hardly believe). If the New Amiga
Company could somehow incorporate similar features into its chipset (or
license one of the above?), the Amiga's graphics would once again be
lightyears ahead of any of its competition.
(There's also an alternate option to the "I Hate WinDoze" dilemma here:
The new owners of AmigaDOS could write an Intuition-like OS for PC's….
<g>)
And while I agree that it would be nice to be able to access PC peripheral
cards on an Amiga, who would write the drivers?
BTW, I personally think that if Amiga can run NT in the future, great!
That'll be one less emulator to buy. <g> But I agree that if it becomes
the _primary_ OS…all is lost…. 😮
– Jim, on AutoPilot!
Jim,
In an interview not to long ago with Dave haynie, he stated that he had
started to develop his own Zorro IV bus until he got a good look at PCI,
he said after examining it his new design would only be marginally better,
so he scraped it and planned to use PCI in the 5000. If NTSC video is
your need I feel sure any new Amigas would still have it's native graphic
hardware (possibly in a new form) that you could use, but for general
computing use compatiblity with industry standards is a BIG deal.
…Steve
Cruising on Autopilot
from beautiful Coastal South Carolina
Hmm. Well, if Haynie thought it would be wise to go PCI, then fine…but
what'll happen to the current slew of Amiga boards (as well as Amiga-
specific stuff like AutoConfig)?
Yes, it'd be nice to have faster, flicker-free video at the higher
resolutions. But there's no reason a new custom chipset isn't capable of
that. (Maybe then they would start bundling Amigas with monitors!)
– Jim, on AutoPilot!
Sorry, Mark, but "any off-the-shelf PC graphics card", high-end or not,
will not make an Amiga. The Amiga graphics chips are very particular in
their architecture. Why do you think Ami takes to video like ducks to
water, and PCs do not?
DJ
On AP from Queens, the rotten core of the Big Apple
Mike,
It is possible, depending on the RISC chip chosen, that an existing 680×0
emulation already exists. Take the emulation, add the AA/ECS chip stuff
and you have ADos on RISC in relatively short time (perhaps the same 18
months otherwise devoted to AAA). Then you can take a little time to turn
ADos and application to RISC native mode. Essentially the same approach
Mac took with the PowerMacs.
wmc – via Autopilot!