#World Builders
51 messages in this thread
WB won't use KXP or IPX — it's "animation" is limited to camera movements,
grass and water.
You can combine your WB scenes with your 3DS stuff in Video Post (I haven't
tried this yet — but WB is supposed to produce Z-Buffer files that correctly
work with Video Post) or you can render to a TGA and use as a background as you
would any normal background. The only time you would want to bring your 3DS
objects into WB is if they were static (like a house or something).
I don't really see this as a serious limitation — since you can export a
simplified mesh of your landscape you could always bring this into 3DS and work
with your animated objects and then combine in VP for the final animation. I
suspect this is how I'll do most of my work, although I'm depressed about WB's
rendering times (no camera fly throughs for this puppy!).
Thanks for the info Mike,
The whole real purpose of WB was I didn't have to combine things in VideoPost
(like a creature, a shadow, and the landscape). You might as well just use
Vista Pro. Still, WB is still very, very impressive. I'll have to see about
getting it sometime in the future.
– Neil
102226,3566
>You might as well just use Vista Pro
Except for the fact that the landscape will hardly look real <g>. Seriously,
I've never seen anything in VistaPro that could touch the quality of WB. And
because WB creates and respects the 3DS z-buffer info, it's not the same as
Video Posting any other image you could create somewhere else. You'll get the
right perspective, for example, if your creature walks behind a tree or a rock,
even though that rock only exists in WB.
Shadows would be a problem, though, and I'm going to see just how much of one
when I get a chance to play a little more (I think I'll end up doing the same
trick of composing shadows on live video).
>Seriously, I've never seen anything in VistaPro that could touch the quality
of WB.
Personally, I'm going to hold out for Bryce in 3D for NT (which will have the
added benefit of being less than half the cost, I suspect)
rw
Bob,
>> Personally, I'm going to hold out for Bryce in 3D for NT (which will have
the added benefit of being less than half the cost, I suspect) <<
we used an in-house version of Bryce Pro and although it had animatible clouds
it didn't have any kind of plants. Certainly not grass, bushes, trees etc, and
overall, nothing like the feature set nor the control of WB.
In addition to what Martin said, I understand WB will have an NT version at the
same time that will do animated weather, waterfalls, etc. and will sell for an
upgrade of around $150 over the basic product. That was actually the deciding
factor that made me get it now.
And *I* heard that KPT Pro NT was going to cost about the same as WB anyway…
Mike –
That's interesting – because I heard something entirely different from the
Russian head of development for the product.
He seemed to suggest that WB was an experimental product, for which there is
currently no firm development path, and whose market potential is unknown. He
said the code behind it was written largely as an exercise in re-training
former iron-curtain programmers to write PC code. The primary focus of this
group of programmers is now games, and the suggestion is that there are no
immediate plans for further development of the product, unless there is a
landslide of interest and volume sales.
Wonder which angle is closer to the truth? Maybe someone from Digimation can
jump in here. . .
Bob Weil
I'm not from Digimation, Bob, but I think I'll jump in anyway! <g>
Just wanted to relay some information gleaned from a couple of converstations I
had with the developers of WB at siggraph, and my personal requests of them:
When WB was first explained to me some time ago, I immediately thought, nice,
but I don't really want to render in anything other than 3DS for LOTS of
reasons. How about a non-rendering version that will export to 3DS:
a) Mesh of the terrain generated (with mapping coordinates, if needed),
b) Particle system (AXPs) info for leaves, grass, etc.
c) Both procedural (SXPs) and bitmap-based materials for the environment.
d) Weather stuff (at least clouds).
This way WB would be VERY useful to 3DS users, as we could use 3DS's Editor,
Keyframer, renderer, cast proper shadows without compositing, etc.
Their reply? They thought is was a great idea and are seriously considering it
for MAX, which would be a much easier project than Classic. I say we all write
to them and support they idea, as it would more than likely provide MAX users
with some of the finest 3D environmental tools in the world!
-Alan
>>I say we all write to them and support they idea, as it would more than
likely provide MAX users with some of the finest 3D environmental tools in the
world!
I'll second that…also got a quick opinion question for you. Do you think that
the ability in Max to have an IPAS recognise a particular hardware lock (thus
hopefully reducing piracy) might eventually lead to a lowering in the overall
prices of IPAS routines? Just curious…
John Stetzer
JWS
John, your comment regarding lower plug-in prices due to hardware lock tie-in
is an extremely interesting one! Certainly seems like a possibility, doesn't
it? I hope it's the case. I'd like to run this question by ScotS and DavidA and
see what their thoughts are…
-Alan
>>Certainly seems like a possibility, doesn't it? I hope it's the case.
Me too…I don't think it'll happen immediately, but with the hardware
lock/software recognition, possibly combined w/the easier development of
IPAS's, I do think it will occur.
>>I'd like to run this question by ScotS and DavidA and see what their thoughts
are…
Be interested in hearing their thoughts, be they yes, no, or qualified maybe
:^). Lord knows there are some things I'd like to have right now, with price is
the primary limiting factor.
John Stetzer
JWS
1.
>>the ability in Max to have an IPAS recognise a particular hardware lock
>>(thus hopefully reducing piracy)
2.
>>John, your comment regarding lower plug-in prices due to hardware lock tie-in
is an extremely >>interesting one! Certainly seems like a possibility, doesn't
it?
1.
You know, piracy means popularity.
I doubt that potential loss due to piracy is included in the price of IPASes.
At least it is true for Refraction Mapping, which comes with no protection at
all.
2.
I do expect prices for plug-ins to decrease, but not due to hardware lock
tie-in,
but rather due to MAX ability to lock different levels of plug-in
functionality.
It means no more separate "working demo" versions:
user gets perfectly complete plug-in .dll and can play with it and try it, and
see if
he likes look and feel, but unless he pays for descrambling password, MAX
wouldn't do final render, or will do it only in 320×200 or whatever (some
crippling).
It means, MAX box can easily accomodate a CD full of fully functional
plug-ins, so all 50,000 users may try them.
It means, that upgrade to Tim Forcade "3DS Plug-ins" book may include similar
CD.
It means more potential buyers with less spending on ads, brochures and S&H.
"These Yosters are smart devils" – that what it means.
Alex, Video International
Sounds great to me, Alex!
-Alan
I also agree it would be nice, but I was hoping to keep using the DOS based 3DS
for a while. Maybe they could do a MAX and 3DS version. A program like the one
you described would put 3DS at the top. Sorry if this interupts your Tennis
watching.
– Neil
102226,3566
Don't worry about my tennis watching, Neil. Whaddya think the Sony reference
monitor at my workstation is for?<g> (BorisB is playing just beautifully right
now, and AaronK is trying to put together one of his famous 5-set comebacks,
BTW).
From what they said, doing a complete exportation for Classic would probably be
really more work than it is worth. With plenty of planning and thoughtful
compositing techniques, you should be able to utilize WB with 3DS DOS quite
effectively.
-Alan
You're probably right, Ah well, here goes some of my money again. But it's so
damn fun.
– Neil
102226,3566
>>program like the one you described would put 3DS at the top<<
3DS is already at the top.
Ok, 3DS is at the top, and maybe 30 copies isn't just a trickle. We'll see how
many heads WB will turn.
– Neil
102226,3566
Sounds like a great idea Alan. Aleksey had spent some time explaining to me why
programming for NT will be much easier. I am told that once the MAX Toolkit
hits the street we will see wonderful stuff comming from all over the place.
IPAS will no longer be a science of "Black Magic".
>> How about a non-rendering version that will export to 3DS: …
Now that is what we really need! In my opinion World Builder could be a
very valuable product simply because of the wonderful things that in can do
for creating environments. BUT… in it's present form it is just not
worth much _to me_ (and others I would suspect).
If, as you say, WB was capable of exporting with materials, and mapping
seamlessly to MAX (or even better yet – a core-comp pluged-in World Builder!)
then how could we do without it? It might even be the first plug-in to be
worth that price (IMHO).
PS. I also got the feeling at SigGraph that the developers were entertaining
those thoughts.
>> …but I think I'll jump in anyway!
And we would expect no less! <g>
Ralph
I'd DIE to have that sort of environmental control *inside* MAX!
Whew, it blows me away just thinking of it! <g>
-Alan
>> I'd DIE to have that sort of environmental control *inside* MAX!
Wouldn't we all! I just personally don't have the time to be messing with
the compositing issues (not to mention shadows), importing issues (mapping,
materials), or slow rendering times.
A "World Builder" inside MAX, boy that has a nice ring to it. I hope thats
where they are headed.
Ralph
PS We'll have the boat down at Oceanside Harbor for Labor Day Weekend.
Want to stop by?
Ralph –
The lead programmer said that they tried for some time to find a way to
effectively export materials – but that became impossible to do easily when
they decided on a "smart" procedural method for creating geometry such as grass
and palm fronds.
Perhaps in another life. . .
bob
>> The lead programmer said that they tried for some time to find a way to
>> effectively export materials – but that became impossible to do easily when
Bob,
You started quite a thread with the "experimental product" thing. My
impresions are that a new version is comming.
I was told that there are limitations in the DOS world yes, but with NT (or
MAX) those limitations become quite possible. This is an impressive product
even in its 0.9 release, and to not realize what its potential could be,
would be quite a shame. And according to Aleksey the programmers LOVE a
challenge!
Impossible… is such a final word.
>> Perhaps in another life. . .
Perhaps not!
Ralph … sometimes I feel like I am in another life …and I like it.
Alan –
Great idea! The first-ever (I think) plug-in product lobby!
How do we go about it?
Bob
If enough of us relay our wishes to them (thru Digimation), perhaps they'll
give it some serious thought!
-Alan
>>Animatek seemed to suggest that WB was an experimental product
Let me clarify 3 slight misstatements in the above sentence:
1. First of all: not Animatek, but Nuclear Physics Institute.
2. Secondly: not World Builder, but multithreaded, multitasking 32-bit DOS.
3. And third: was developed not as an Excersice, but as a Bet for a bottle of
Stoly.
Believe me, I know this anecdote from participants themselves.
Now, seriously:
Animatek stands behind their products – just go to any software
store and check how many versions of Tetris are there (DOS, Windows, through
Modem,
Golden Tetris, and also Welltris and Faces). And the only product of theirs I
would call
partially experimental would be El Fish,
where they tried some of the technologies used later in the World Builder.
And finally, Bones Pro – new version is coming…
Alex, Video International
>>Bones Pro – new version is coming…
Any teasers for new features and what version # this'll be?
John Stetzer
JWS
Alek,
do you know the people at Animatek? If so, could you ask them to take part in
this forum. I have lots of issues to discuss with them regarding World Builder,
because I'm not sure if my comments will reach them.
I'm trying to use World Builder in a television commercial and we are using
multiple software packages (Renderman, Alias, 3d Studio, and World Builder).
Maybe you could give them this message, relating to version 0.9.
immediate needs/problems:
1) shadow mapping seems to be broken. We get dark parellel lines across the
landscape.
2) need source code for all plants to be able to modify the l-systems,
l-objects. (Yost Group allows this with Silicon Garden). We need to customize
each plant.
3) export of trees to 3ds is not clean. Face normals on leaves are alternately
one way, then the next face is the opposite. Mapping is correct on some leave
(maybe one third), very wrong on the others. Mapping is not good on trunks of
trees and needs to be re-applied. This makes importing a big job – much more
than it should be.
4) lack of alpha channel is big problem for 2d compositing with images from
other software which lack z-buffer. Z-buffer is nice but need alpha channel
too. There is a workaround but it's not ideal – render on single coloured sky
with no anti-aliasing, and do a soft-edge chroma-keyed composite with your
other images.
5) the super-sampling anti-aliasing method seems like a horribly inefficient
and slow method. Can they figure out how to just anti-alias the objects
(analytical anti-aliasing)?
6) some of the supplied texture/bump maps don't tile correctly in WB or 3ds.
long term wishlist:
1) wind in the trees
2) animatible weather (time of day, clouds etc)
3) blending between shaders on different areas of landscape. For example going
from a sand to a rock shader.
that's all for now thanks.
Hi, Martin!
>>do you know the people at Animatek? If so, could you ask them to take part in
this forum. I have >>lots of issues to discuss with them regarding World
Builder, because I'm not sure if my >>comments will reach them.
Yes, I do know them.
And just yesterday I sent a message to Michael where advised him to say a word
about WB to stop these strange rumors. Let me check my Internet mail, it could
be
he has already answered me…
All your questions and proposals I'll send immediately to him, no problem.
See, the problem is, that there is no russian translation for words "Public
Relations",
and consequently there is no such a notion…
Regards,
Alex, Video International
P.S.
>>long term wishlist:
>>1) wind in the trees
>>2) animatible weather (time of day, clouds etc)
>>3) blending between shaders on different areas of landscape. For example
going from a sand >>to a rock shader.
Just send them a copy of Virtuosity and tell them that you want all of that and
more…
>> See, the problem is, that there is no russian translation for words
"Public Relations", <<
You are kidding, right?
– Dan / n-Space, Inc.
>> See, the problem is, that there is no russian translation for words
"Public Relations", <<
>>You are kidding, right?
Let me see…
there are
Public Opinion,
Public Library
and Public Enemy (Enemy of the People)
in the dictionary
See, no Public Relations … whatsoever.
Alex, Video International
P.S. Oh, and I forgot Public Protest, of course…
Alek,
>> All your questions and proposals I'll send immediately to him, no problem.
<<
thanks Alek.
>> See, the problem is, that there is no russian translation for words "Public
Relations",
and consequently there is no such a notion… <<
you seem to handling that quite well for many of the Russian developers 🙂
>> Just send them a copy of Virtuosity and tell them that you want all of that
and more… <<
ROFL! Good idea, but I try to be realistic in my wishes <g>.
Hi, Martin!
I sent your proposals to both Oleg (Mishin, not Buyborodin) and Igor, they
will answer soon.
Should I add your desire for projector lights too? Or let them handle
everything else first?
Direct Animatek's presence on the forum is quite problematic:
a. First, CompuServe in Europe is awfully expensive.
b. Second, there are no (as of my knowledge) CompuServe local numbers in
Russia.
c. Third, as I mentioned earlier, not everyone in Moscow understands importance
of PR.
Now, as for rumors about Animatek's plans to develop NT version:
a. I have no rights to speak officially for Animatek till I get an answer from
Oleg and Igor.
b. I asked MicheleB to visit Animatek's Moscow headquarters and ask them
directly about upgrade plans. Animatek agreed to talk to Michele about that
(good sign).
c. Animatek has enough experience developing Windows programs: this June they
published Windows upgrade to their "WaterWorld Builder" game – El Fish.
d. Animatek's Michael confirmed plans to upgrade Bones Pro (no features list
available to me at this time).
Now, inofficialy:
They are great guys and very talanted programmists and algorithmists, they even
got couple of psycologists in their team. Everything, what can be done (and
some more)
will be done. The more Challenging your suggestions will be, the more chances
it
will get more of their attention. Just tell them that It Is Impossible to have
Weather
Generator on PC or nobody can do Wind in the Forest – and you'll get it.
While on IMPOSSIBLE stuff topic: Oleg (Buyborodin, not Mishin) worked out
some interesting approach for making 3DS Hairs (I just lied to him, that NOBODY
can do this).
But he can start working on it only after Stickies and Aurora, which means
after Halloween (Sorry).
Let's be a little more patient,
Alex, Video International
Martin:
PMJI, but regarding your one request for "wind in the trees", for the time
being, perhaps you could use the technique used by PIXAR in the Listerine
"Arrow" commercial: They used animated projected shadows (gobo) on the tree
canopies to simulate leaf movement. It was pretty effective.
Dave
David,
>> They used animated projected shadows (gobo) on the tree canopies to
simulate leaf movement. It was pretty effective. <<
Animating trees isn't terribly difficult within 3ds, but I was hoping for it in
WB, where I don't think they have projector lights.
Interesting idea, though, and could be very economical. I think I'll experiment
with it. However, the wind is during a rain storm when lighting is a bit flat
typically.
>> do you know the people at Animatek? If so, could you ask them to take part
in this forum. I have lots of issues to discuss with them regarding World
Builder, because I'm not sure if my comments will reach them. <<
To the best of my knowledge, Digimation is the distributor and support channel
for the product. Regarding Animatek, I have suggested to an aquaintance there
that they could use a presence here on the forum. I will forward your
questions to him via e-mail.
– Dave
David,
>> To the best of my knowledge, Digimation is the distributor and support
channel for the product. <<
that's true and I've given them my comments, but they don't know the answer to
some of my concerns. Therefore, I thought I'd try a 2 pronged approach <g>.
Aleksey –
Stoli would do it for me too! Am I imagining that you said this program was a
training ground for your next group of programmers? (It's certainly possible –
they weren't pouring Stoli, but it sure was good – )
And you still haven't confirmed a development path for World Builder. . .
Bob
>>And *I* heard that KPT Pro NT was going to cost about the same as WB
anyway…
"KPT Pro NT", as in the Pshop plugins, or do you mean KPT Bryce NT, as
in the landscape generator?
David,
BLUR
> KPT Bryce NT
My (limited) understanding is the NT version of Bryce will be called "Pro"
because it will have animation.
Martin Foster has a much better handle on this — direct a question to him
about it. (BTW, I'm going to put your whale into some WB underwater scenery —
maybe have him swimming in some seaweed!).
I just want to know that if an NT specific version of KPT (not Bryce) came out,
its not going to cost a thousand bucks. (considering that the existing KPT 2.0
only costs around $150).
David,
BLUR
>I just want to know that if an NT specific version of KPT (not Bryce) came
out, its not going to cost a thousand bucks. (considering that the existing KPT
2.0 only costs around $150).<
That is what I heard also. KPT 3.0 will be 32bit and run on NT/Win95.
>>That is what I heard also.
It IS going to cost $1k??? depressing….
David,
BLUR
David,
If you have not seen World Builder yet, please download the images. I got the
program yesterday and while I screamed about the price, I now know it is well
worth it.
The control over the landscape, the plants, the water, and sky are superb!
I got excellent results only a few hours after working wth the program. Puts
Vistapro to shame!
Bye!
RE: KPT 3.0 price
>It IS going to cost $1k??? depressing….<
No, the price should be close to the current price. I was saying I heard KPT
3.0 would be 32bit. I was in agreement with you, not the other person.
Mike,
>> [KPT Bryce Pro NT] Martin Foster has a much better handle on this — direct
a question to him about it. <<
uh duh! Who me? Actually what we used quite successfully for "Virtuosity" was a
pre-product, pre-alpha, pre-existence Bryce Pro for PowerMAC. We were only
interested in the cloud parts which through great pain and suffering we were
able to use. To my knowledge no other product does what Bryce Pro does and it
is to be hoped that when what we used becomes a real product on NT it will have
killer clouds.
>> price <<
cheaper than Alias <g>.
Mike,
That's why I said I'm still interested in the program, VistaPro can't do plants
and shrubs like WB can. It's mainly the shadows, so if you come up with any new
insight on the subject, feel free to contact me. I'll have to get my copy
sometime in the next month. One last thing, I'm a little unclear about this
Z-Buffer thing. You explained that it allows you to have someone walk behind a
tree, etc. But how is it used in Video-Post?
– Neil
102226,3566
> It's mainly the shadows, so if you come up with any new insight on the
subject, feel free to contact me
Well, I'm getting new insights every day I use this. I forgot to mention that
you can import a VUE file into WB, so it *does* do animated objects, but still
without IXP or KXP control (basically no IPAS of any sort).
>One last thing, I'm a little unclear about this Z-Buffer thing. You explained
that it allows you to have >someone walk behind a tree, etc. But how is it used
in Video-Post?
Well, I haven't tried this yet <g> but the manual says you render in WB and
create WB's z-buffer file. Then you use a supplied IPAS which combines the two
z-buffers (3DS and WBs) in Video Post (or in WB, — you can go either way) that
would respect each other's accordingly. So, if an object is a certain distance
from the camera, theorectically it should have a z-buffer entry that caused it
to occlude an object further away from the camera.
I'm going to try this a lot this coming three-day weekend, but one thing I did
do last night was export the WB mesh and bring it into 3DS and render shadows
of my moving object on it (a la Martin's 3D Studio Special Effects technique,
except in this case the shadows were more than faked onto a white plane, they
actually were the surface coutours, etc.). Then I combined this in Video Post
with the WB background (no z-buffer stuff yet) and the results were very good,
except that I needed to ray-trace the shadows in 3DS to match the quality of
the shadows in WB (this is something WB does better than 3DS, IMHO).
The only think I didn't like about this was the mesh imported from WB was very
complex, and using Optimize didn't help too much (maybe I need to play somewhat
with the Optimize parameters, but I only had a few hours last night to try all
this and still watch U.S. Open tennis). But I think I'm close to my final
technique.
Thanks Mike, Please keep me informed, I want to be sure before calling
Digimation. If the Z-buffer thing works, send word.
– Neil
102226,3566