#Not up to PAR
43 messages in this thread
Just thought I'd share what I've done on my Christmas season. I picked a DPS
PAR up about 6 weeks ago and had difficulties getting it to initialize from the
getgo. After about a month the Micropolis hard drive quit spinning up when the
machine was warm. So I called DPS. After busy signals and no return call
throughout that day, I tried calling Micropolis to see if they had an opinion.
They assured me it must be my power supply. So off I go on a quest for a new
power supply. After three days I was able to secure a new power supply.
Strange thing, everything else is working, though. Still the same problem. So
I called DPS. They assured me it must be the hard drive. I called the
distributor where I got the hard drive. They tell me after 15 days they have a
contract that says I have to go back to Micropolis. I call Micropolis, wait on
hold for 50 minutes, oh, and by the way it was 20 minutes on the first call,
and it's not an 800 number. They say, well, if you've checked everything else,
it might be the hard drive. They tell me they can ship one out. It'll take
about 4 weeks. I call back the distributor where I got the hard disk. After
about a 15 minute very heated conversation, they suggest that I should call
back Micropolis and tell them it was a new drive and maybe they'll waive the
$50 charge to send the drive out right away. I called back Micropolis. They
agree to send a new hard drive as long as I guarantee the full purchase price
on my credit card. Two days pass. The drive comes Fed Ex. BTW, meanwhile
I've lost a 30 second tv commercial with about 100 hours of rendering time to
all of this. I install the new drive. Strange thing, there is a little A
sticker attached to the end of the serial number. We'll get into that later.
I begin the arduous task of trying to recover whatever I can off the first
drive, first thing every morning when the office is still cold and the original
drive will still spin. A couple days later, I've got most of it over. After
an attempt on attitude readjustment to get myself back into a creativity mode,
I start to work. After about 10 frames written from 3D Studio to the new
drive, it starts writing corrupted frames. I go in, delete those frames,
optimize the disk, and start over. This time it writes half the original
frame, half the second frame, garbage through the middle, and the old file name
to the new animation. I call DPS. Must be my memory manager. I assure them
that my QEMM has been quite stable over the last 2 years. The guy tells me
that EMM386 is much better. OK, I'll try anything once. I've now got every
computer board in my system strewn throughout the room. I'm now at this point
out about 2 weeks of production time. Needless to say, EMM386 did not solve
the problem. Another call to DPS. I assure them there is absolutely no way it
could be a hardware conflict, because I no longer have any hardware in this
computer that it could conflict with. They agree that maybe they should look
at the board. And oh, btw, they ship ground UPS, which is of course the
preferred mode of transportation of your computer parts during the holidays, if
you're in a professional production environment and need your stuff in a hurry.
I call FedEx and start an account. After 2 or 3 days of the board being at DPS
I get a call from the technician, who has been working the board over. This
guy was a very articulate individual, very reluctant to pass judgement or blame
(That was refreshing), and he was unable to get the board to hiccup once. I
say, I'll call back up Micropolis. At this point I've got Dorothy's personal
number in customer service. I ask her how her weekend's been. She says fine.
I said "Is there any chance you could have shipped me a defective drive?" She
says "It's possible." and agrees to send me out an additional drive if I give
her my credit card number to guarantee the full cost of the drive. I call
FedEx to return this drive. BTW, I've now got a fairly good rapport going with
my FedEx guy. You know he's from Vermont originally, and used to have rabbits.
He's having Chicken Stir Fry for supper today. Nice guy. Another day later,
and the new drive arrives. I install the new drive. Everything seems to be
working ok. Hallelujah! I begin to reassemble my computer and clean up my
office, which now looks like Ghengis Khan stopped over for lunch and stayed a
week. I begin to try to get back to work. BTW, the new backup system I just
purchased seems to be working ok. More incidental expenditures. It's only
money. After about a day, while doing a test preview, one of the frames seems
to hiccup and make a strange noise when 3D Studio tries to write the file.
After going into the PAR software, that frame also hiccups when you play the
animation and makes a really strange noise on the hard disk. I start trying to
rediagnose the drive again, using all the tricks I've learned over recent
history. After optimizing the disk, the hiccup disappears. But guess what, it
reappears in the middle of another file. I call up DPS. I talk to, I think it
was the same guy who told me I had to be using EMM386, who now says it sounds
like some kind of thermo-something on the hard disk. It's now Christmas Eve
and everyone is closed for the holidays. And I am now very close to 3 weeks of
screwing around listening to everyone blame everyone else. Today I call
Micropolis. My first question is, what is the little A sticker after the serial
number? Are you sending me a remanufactured drive in lieu of my faulty new
drive? They confirm, all replacement drives are remanufactured, and they have
no new drives there. I reply, Micropolis has <no> new hard drives? He says,
no, not there at customer service. He suggests if I want a new drive, I should
go back to where I bought the drive. I share just part of my happy story, and
he puts me on hold, returns after speaking with probably a supervisor, and
agrees to call their other facility and try to send me a new drive. End of
saga to date.
First a warning: Anyone who would not use Stacker on a hard disk should
definitely stay away from the DPS PAR because trying to diagnose one of these
systems is worse than trying to find an electrical problem in a British car.
(To all of you non-automotive types, they use a positive ground.) Another
thing, I wish others would have been this forthcoming with how difficult to
diagnose and basically flakey this whole juryrigged operation can be. To say
that this mess is a handsdown replacement for single frame to Betacam is a far
too oversimplified take on things. If an edit deck won't edit, you send it in
for service, and either borrow or rent a replacement. Maybe an afternoon's
driving. This mess has cost me three weeks, and over a hundred hours of
rendering time, and didn't do much for holiday cheer. I did have a rather good
Christmas, didn't come down into the office all weekend. Didn't even want to
look at the rat's nest of crap lying all over the place. How was your
Christmas?
Roger D.
Wow. I am amazed that you're still talking to all of us.
(And I feel very lucky that 3DS wasn't part of your nightmare.)
Good luck resolving it before this weekend so you can start '95 off on the good
foot!
– G
Gary,
Thanks for the empathy. Yes, 3D Studio, as usual, just keeps plunking along.
I also hope the hardware gods smile upon me in the new year.<g>
Roger D.
I feel for ya Roger. What a bummer. Your story did make me laugh though, if
that makes you feel any better. (the part about the FedEx drivers rabbits) I
sure hope you get everything back to normal, soon…. Good Luck.
Dave Mennenoh
Dave,
<<the part about the FedEx drivers rabbits>>
Believe it or not, you got the abbreviated version. The long version could
have qualified to run along with Dave Barry's better stuff. <g> Still trying
to keep a good attitude. Hardware! Yucky, pooey!
Roger D.
Roger,
What a great story !
The problem you were having sounds like a hardware problem. Do you have a
Pentium or a 486 ? (Pentiums generate more heat than 486s and need more
cooling) What wattage is your power supply ? (A low wattage power supply for
your system can produce unstable results) How large is your system's case ?
(A small case will mean more heat is trapped in the case) How many fans do
you have in your system ? Is there a separate fan for the PAR drive ? How
many PAR drives do you have (1 or 2) ?
In relation to the software setup of their systems, the problems that people
have with the PAR are usually:
1. Using Windows for Workgroups and they've turned 32 Bit access on – not
a good idea as this is incompatible with the PAR software
2. They are using QEMM – this has bugs and I would recommend EMM386 as
DPS told you
3. Using Stacker or some other type of disk compression on the DOS drive –
can't pin down this problem but it seems to produce unstable results
4. Check which version of the PAR initializer you are using and if you're not
using the latest upgrade it. (dated 8/11/94)
5. Check you are using the latest version of the PAR driver (1.30b)
By the way, when you said you picked up a DPS PAR where did you get ?
Did the dealer you bought it from not offer you any after sales service ? I
know
a number of PAR dealers and if you had told them of your difficulties I am
sure
they would have helped you out – that's what dealers are there for. If a
dealer
had configured your whole system I am sure that your problems would have
been alleviated.
A Happy New Year 🙂
Jamie Carr
in:sync
(a happy PAR user)
Hi Jamie and all,
>> (Pentiums generate more heat than 486s and need more cooling) <<
I am getting a PAR soon. I already have a fan on my CPU as well as for
the tower. I have heard there are actual fan boards for about $20 that plug in
to an external bay. A wise investment?
I am upgrading to a more powerful power supply too.
Paul S.
Hello Paul,
I had to put additional fans in both of my computers before I was happy. I
used small 12v muffin fans salvaged from old power supplies and simply propped
them up or taped them into position inside the case with the airstream directed
at the disk drives. Before I did this, the all three of my Micropolis drives
were hot enough to fry eggs on – now they are all at room temperature. I wired
the fans into the 12v pins on the drive power supply pigtails.
I wouldn't waste money or slots on a fan board. You really need the air
blowing directly onto the drives. My pentium case has an extra fan built in
that circulates air near the processor chip – I added a baffle that directed
the air directly onto the chip. I also want to put in a fan directed towards
the PAR board, as it gets HOT.
JKJ
Hi John,
Thanks for the tips about the fans. Will ditch the fan board and arrange
for alternatives. I currently have a VERY hot running Targa+64 board too. I'm
moving up from a mid- to a full-tower. Will make use of the extra space for
new fan(s).
Paul S.
Oh, I forgot to mention another possible configuration. A World Famous
Forensics Expert and Animation Wizard who frequents this forum simply keeps his
computer cases wide open with an external 8" fan blowing on everything. Talk
about keeping your cool. Next best thing to a refrigeration system!
JKJ
I remember seeing that (the 8" fan). I am also considering the first ever
water-cooled PAR system. My aquarium should be about the perfect size.
Paul S.
Paul:
>> I am also considering the first ever water-cooled PAR system. My
>> aquarium should be about the perfect size.
<ROTF,L!>
Greg Pyros
JKJ,
>> A World Famous Forensics Expert and Animation Wizard who frequents this
forum simply keeps his computer cases wide open with an external 8" fan blowing
on everything <<
ROFL!!! Me too. The only way I can keep my PAR/TBC system running reliably is
with the case off and a 12" fan set on high directed at the boards. Put the
case on, and I get communication time out messages from the PAR software.
Martin
Yeah…fans are fine for you guys in Southern Cal; I'm catching bloody
Pneumonia from the drafts caused by all the bloody fans I'm surrounded by. I've
got a tell-tale on top of each case. Baja sounds nice.
JB
Jim,
>> I'm catching bloody Pneumonia from the drafts caused by all the bloody fans
I'm surrounded by <<
I know, I know. It's cold here too (relatively speaking) and I sometimes wish I
didn't have to the fan on. My tootsies get cold <g>
John –
Ditto! I bought several muffin fans for $12 bucks each and have them pointed at
my PAR and at the 2217A Micropolis. I did this after reading threads up here
about difficulties people were having with fried drives and corrupted files –
no problems of any kind, and the PAR and drive are not even warm to the touch!
Bob Weil
Robert;
>> I bought several muffin fans for $12 bucks each
How big is a "muffin fan". I guess I should get a couple for my system.
Should I be able to locate these at any/most computer stores?
Thanks,
Dennis
You find them in "hack" computer stores or electronics surplus stores
($1 each type deal). They vary in size between 1" and 4". You should
look for anything that will fit inside your computer and it must be
12V (though you could use 110V I wouldn't advise). Just use a spare
drive power cable to drive it. While at the electronic store, you
could also get an oversized heat sink (an aluminum extruded comb) and
glue it with heat transfer glue on your hard disk. Note that my
computers are "ON" since last May (when I moved over here) and I
haven't ever had any of these problems (albeit it's a bit cooler than
most places).
>> "hack" computer stores or electronics surplus stores ($1 each type
>> deal). They vary in size between 1" and 4".
I know just the "hack" store. I think I've only been in there once.
Ok. Thanks Gus.
Dennis
Dennis –
>>>How big is a "muffin fan".
Well, I guess it's about the size of – uh – a muffin. I have no idea
where the name comes from, but their are a variety of sizes. I
subsequently realised I paid a little more than I needed per fan, but
such is life. These fans run on 12 volts, and usually PCs have an
extra drive power line dangling that you can tap into. Cheapest
insurance I ever bought.
>> about the size of – uh – a muffin.
That got a chuckle.
Thanks Bob,
Dennis
>> These fans run on 12 volts, and usually PCs have an extra drive power line
dangling that you can tap into.
Cheapest insurance I ever bought. <<
Robert Hi.
I am curious, as I hear much about the PAR drives overheating, as
to which HD's are overheating. I have a Micropolis 1.7, but it does
not seem to give me any heating problem. Is this just the case with
a slave drive setup, or should I consider getting a fan too, just in
case? Thanks.
I have the 2217A Micropolis – and gets downright HOT. If you've
watched the threads over the last six months about the PAR, a fair
number of people have complained about the heat coming off the
Micropolis drives (and off the board itself), and there have been
reports of drive failures. The SCSI version of the Micropolis drive
has had alot of reported problems on other forums. Although I'm very
happy with my Micropolis, I already have an oven, so I bought two
fans – one directed at the PAR board and one at the Micropolis. It
became especially hot when I had it near another hard drive. If you
have another drive to compare it to, I think you'll see a difference
(as long as it's not another Micropolis 🙂
Bob Weil and Gus Grubba;
>> Well, I guess it's about the size of – uh – a muffin.
>> Cheapest insurance I ever bought.
I didn't go to a "hack" store, but a used/new store because it was closer. I
was able to locate some 3" "muffin" fans today for $7.00 each. I bought three
of them. I mounted one as an extra exhaust fan for the case, and put one near
the PAR boards, and one near the Drive.
Thank you very much for bringing this issue up!
Dennis
John, Mother of all Mothers of Invention, K. Jordan.
Jamie,
<<What a great story!>>
Thanks. I just wish it was somebody else telling it though. <g> Nah, I don't
really wish that on anybody. To answer your question, it's a 486 system, a
normal Gateway AT/XT desktop case. The PAR disk was in the lowest blank, right
below a dual floppy and CD Rom. The 2 hard disk spaces have got Western
Digitals, one 4 years old, and one 2. So this puts the disk right in front of
the fan on the bottom of the computer, probably the coolest spot in the box.
Micropolis's spec sheet for that drive gives an operating range from -40 to 65
degrees Celcius. I think 65 degrees Celcius is something like 145 degrees F,
isn't it? I don't think the inside of my case has ever reached that kind of
temperature. Also my old power supply was 250 watts, ran the first drive for
about a month. The new power supply with more power leads is rated at 300.
I'm not trying to use the PAR at all in Windows, and my reference to Stacker
was more a reference to how most people felt about proprietary formating of
disk drives on this forum in the past. It's not on this system at present.
PAR software? I've used everything from 1.08 to something like 1.34b. BTW, I
wish they'd quit using us all as beta testers. Buying it from a dealer? I
did. He's primarily an Amiga dealer. I do quite a bit of modeling for them in
3D Studio. <g> Once you get past basic install questions, he's pretty much
lost. He only handles the tiny Seagates. That's mostly what his Amiga
customers have been buying, so I got the hard drive somewhere else. There's
the major pivot point. I think it's come down to the hard drive, and the fact
that Micropolis keeps sending me refried refurbished replacements. At least
that's my suspicion at the moment. The problem with trying to get this all
sorted out is two totally and completely interdependent pieces of equipment
(the PAR board, the hard disk because of a proprietary format) which are very
difficult, if not impossible to test independently, and two nonrelated
manufacturers perfectly willing to point the finger. Thus, the customer is up
the river, without a paddle, during a drought. I just may try to snag up one of
these VISTA boards people have been posting for sale, and keep looking for a
used LVR. Thanks.
Roger D.
Roger if you get totally fed up, send me the PAR and the drive and I'll send
you a 4M ATVista and a Diaquest 422 with the AA board. 🙂
Paul
Paul,
Thanks, I already own a DQ422, but if you have a price in mind for that 4Mg
ATVista, email me a note.
Roger D.
Roger,
>> it's a 486 system, a normal Gateway AT/XT desktop case. <<
that's probably a bit too small of a case, with insufficient airflow, I'd
guess. I have a large tower case which I have to run with the cover off and a
12" fan directed inside. Otherwise, I get errors running the PAR software and
my animations break-up on playback.
You should consider adding a lot more fans to the case, or even another case
with extra fans.
>> They are using QEMM – this has bugs and I would recommend EMM386 as DPS
>>told you
I have used QEMM for years and the number of problems I've been able to
attribute to it have been MINISCULE! I've had NO PAR problems from QEMM 7.04
or 7.5.
Dave
David,
I only say don't use QEMM because in certain cases – (related to using SCSI
drives)
QEMM falters – These problems only start to manifest themselves when you push
the system and I believe that the latest version has fixed this problem.
Unfortunately
not everyone upgrades to the latest version whereas people ususally have the
latest
version of EMM386 as they seem to upgrade DOS as often as they change their
socks 🙂
Jamie Carr
in:sync
>>as they seem to upgrade DOS as often as they change their socks 🙂
Eyyyuuuuuuggghh! With SOME of the people I know, that's probably not too
often! <g>
Dave
Roger:
>> How was your Christmas?
Couldn't have been much worse than yours! Actually, just to make you feel
better, I want to tell you that I just basically went through the same thing
with a US Robotics Sportster 28,800 baud modem. After re-doing all my UNIX
software that accesses it (mail, Internet account, bbs software, etc) and still
having problems, I even went so far as to load a new patch on my UNIX operating
system and re-compile the kernel to see if that was it. No luck.
Finally US Robotics sent me a FAX stating that there was a bad batch of chips
used, and that they would send me a new chip, free of charge – but they didn't
have any more, and it would be at least two weeks from today.
But, hey, it's a computer! It's logical, right?
Greg Pyros
PS – at least my PAR's working! :^)
Greg,
<<At least my PAR is working>>
Yeah, but what do you know about your FedEx person? <g>
Roger D.
Roger:
>> Yeah, but what do you know about your FedEx person? <g>
<ROTF,L!> Good to see you are keeping up your sense of humor about this,
especially during the holiday season! Keep it up!
Greg Pyros
Greg,
Flash, update!! Yesterday, I received my 4th hard drive. Despite the fact
that it's another rebuild, this one appears to be holding its own. Now I
suppose since I just typed that, it's doomed to blow, but I'll keep my fingers
crossed. How is your modem?
Roger D.
P.S. Have you hugged your FedEx person today?
Roger:
Glad it's all working! A series of bad hard drives – who'da thunk it?
>> Have you hugged your FedEx person today?
Only when she brings checks or toys! And when my wife's not in the office!
Greg Pyros
Yikes! Great story! I had a 1.7 gig SCSI Micropolis that did that after 6
months or so. I was able to get it to spin up if I turned it on its back and
applied freeze spray to a certain chip. My vendor was happy to replace it,
even after 6 months. I think the remanufactured thing must be common with
drive manufacturers, as I got nearly the same story from Maxtor about another
drive. Lets face it, these guys are into volume and profits.
Your PAR story sounds remarkably similar in some respects to Alec Jason's
story. He went thru several drives and eventually had to get the PAR board
replaced before his problems were solved.
JKJ
John,
Thanks. I actually was able to recover most of my data off the first drive by
wrapping it up in plastic and setting it between two Blue Ice cooler ice packs.
(Don't try this at home…I did make sure that no humidity was able to leak
into the bag and cause condensation.) But it kept the drive cool long enough
to retrieve some stuff. It sounds like maybe they shipped me Alec's drives.
<g> Boy it's really hard to pin things down when they keep moving.
Roger D.
Roger;
Thanks for relating your story. WOW!
I think I have had the same problem as you. It was about last May however. I
kept getting one or two frames out of an animation that had wierd lines on
them, and the hard disk made a funny sound on those frames. I had rendered to
targa files and was copying them to the PAR when this would occur. It seemed
to happen when the Drive did it's temperature recalibration about every 8 – 10
minutes. I think it was called T-cal. Does that time frame sound like
something that may have coincided with your messed up frames?
"To All; If that is the problem, what (if anything) can be done about this?"
I didn't know what to do, and needed to finish the animation, so I re-rendered
just those frames, and cut and joined the animation to finish the project. At
that time, I thought maybe it was something I had inadvertantly done. So I
didn't post anything to the board.
Now however, I am wondering if I have a problem that I should have found and
fixed earlier. I am new to getting paid for animations, and haven't really
done anything since then. So now at least, I will need to look into this. I
have another job coming up for the same customer.
I bought two Mic 2217A Drives. One for DOS and Targa files, and one for the
PAR.
I just looked, and the guarantee on the drives is for five years, so that makes
me feel better.
Dennis
Hi Dennis,
That does sound like one of the hard disks I had the pleasure of taking
delivery of. What it turned out to be was a bad spot on the hard disk. It
showed up in the middle of an animation. Once I optimized, it was in the
middle of a different animation. My suggestion would be to render a real
simple animation to your PAR drive, and either copy it end to end until the
disk gets pretty close to full, then play it back or even just record some
video from a VCR and see if you can isolate the bad spot. If you find one,
delete everything on either end, except the bad section. Record something else
and see if that's ok. Optimize your disk. My bad spot moved into a whole
different animation. Anyway, that's how I found out that was what was the
matter with that disk.
Another one of them, you couldn't seem to get rid of the names of old
animations. New animations would take on the old file name, and throw in some
corrupted data from the old animation to boot. These were all 2217a's.
I also got an email message from someone in a position to know that the 2217a's
are very suceptible to overheating and should only be installed with one inch
clearance on all sides. Don't ask me how that's possible, but that's what I
was told. Every since I got that message, I've left the blank off in front of
my PAR drive. I'm going to try to pick up an extra fan this week to aim over
the top of the drive.
Good luck. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.
Roger D.
Roger;
>> and see if you can isolate the bad spot.
Then do you leave that animation there forever to prevent the disk from using
the space?
>> My bad spot moved into a whole different animation.
Can you expound on this? If you leave the corrupt animation in place, did it
then move to another animation?
Thanks,
Dennis
Roger:
I'll probably be sorry for saying this, as this month has NOT gone extremely
smooth for me, but I've not had a single HARDWARE problem with the
PAR/Micropolis since I got it in late Oct/Early Nov. <<Knock on wood!>>
Dave