#World Builder IPAS
20 messages in this thread
I don't know what everybody else is doing with 3D Studio but I consider World
Builder an item long due. Creating real scenery for flight sequences has been a
real pain! VistaPro just is not good enough. No shading under the trees, etc.
What I don't agree with is the price. With what I have invested in IPAS
routines and 3D Studio, I could have bought Alias.
I love 3D Studio but the new SGI Indigo2 Extreme that can render at 30fps real
time may force me to bypass MAX and go straight to Alias/Wavefront and Vega.
Mark,
>> world builder …. What I don't agree with is the price. <<
I have to disagree with you again. World builder is an enormous program (the
.exe is 3mb) and has capabilities few have seen. Whether it works as promised
and can be effectively incorporated into production is something I'll be
finding out in the coming week – if it does, it'll be a steal at that price. So
far it looks promising.
I showed it to our Wavefront/Alias/Renderman animators/modelers who've been in
the high-end business for years. They're all amazed by World Builder feature
wise, and then they are floored when they hear the price.
Martin
I will find out. We ordered it two weeks ago from Digimation and they were out
of stock at the time.
Price is not the issue for me. Performance is. I don't mind spending 70 grand
for an Indigo or a bearded lady for that matter as long as the product works to
the best of its ability. I won't work with hardware or software that is only
so-so anymore. I don't have the time. I have a series of video tapes planned at
the rate of one a month for the forseable future and waiting on rendering is
causing a difficulty. And I do optimize the meshes and network render.
To me this is still a cottage industry. Most of the folks I have talked to
don't rake in 5 to 50 million a year doing 3DS so forking out a grand for a
routine is a lot. I don't mind spending 3 grand for Powerbuilder Enterprise or
S-Designor because I can make that back in a week or two. I have yet to make
any outside money doing animation.
What worries me is the price trend I see happening. The software prices are
going up not down. While I can afford the $1000 for World Builder, what other
IPASs or other routines are down the pike at $1000 or $2000? At some point the
price structure becomes equivalent to the SGI/Alias/Vega high end. I've got
around $10,000 in software for animation now.
Bear in mind that I have 20 years of computer experience dating back to punch
cards on a Univac but have only been doing 3DS and video for a year. Some of
the things I see tolerated in this arena would get me fired doing data
processing in a production shop. For example, I love RazorPro and will stay
with it. However, we bought Adobe Premiere 4 for Windows and that turned out to
be a disaster. The software is buggy and proved unusable on our standard
run-of-the-mill Pentiums because of the ATI cards we run. If I released a
Powerbuilder application like that I would be told to hit the door and don't
let it hit you in the fanny on the way out.
Enough bashing because I actually have had a truly great time doing animation
and CD-ROM poduction. Plus everybody has been a great help unlike some in
computing.
Send me your thoughts. I'm still learning as I go.
Martin,
>>I have to disagree with you again. World builder is an enormous program (the
.exe is 3mb) and has capabilities few have seen. <<
PMJI, but I am a Programmer/3D Artist currently employed by a Multimedia Game
Company. I am using 3D Studio and Vistapro to create Artwork assets for a PC
game and am also coding the game. I have written IPAS routines of which I use
some for internal development and I have posted one on this forum some time
ago. I feel quite strongly that users of this forum should be aware that the
"size" of an executable, be it an IPAS plug-in or a stand-alone program has
absolutely NO bearing on the quality or functionality or robustness of that
module, In fact it could just as easily indicate that the code in question was
written in a sloppy, unoptimized fashion and/or contains many lines of unused
Functions/Data/Dead wood.
On the subject of World Builder, is it an IPAS plug-in? the flyer that I
picked up from Digimation at Siggraph does not claim so. It mentions
"integration" with 3D Studio via Import/Export functions – if this is the case,
it seems to be similar to Vistapro in that respect. Although World Builder
promises goodies that extend beyond those contained within Vistapro or KPT
Bryce (a Windows 95 version of Bryce has been mentioned by HSC Software), can
it really justify a "Special Introductory Offer" price which is around TEN
times that of Vistapro, Bryce etc.??
If World Builder is indeed a stand alone package I would suggest that it's
creators rewrite the package as a genuine plug-in to 3DS, this would make the
package more useful, probably about 25% of it's current size and, having placed
the now redundant "user interface" programmers onto other tasks, hopefully 25%
of it's current price. Until then, I for one refuse to validate the price of
World Builder by buying it, I'm staying with the excellent Vistapro.
Thanks,
Brian Howarth
Martin,
>> the "size"… has absolutely NO bearing on the quality <<
that's just what my wife was saying …. point well taken.
Seriously, there really isn't a program quite like WB and we bought it since we
have a paying project that may be able to use it. If we find this "standalone"
program won't work for us, we can return it within 30 days. It would be a great
idea if Animatek/Digimation could come up with a demo version so other people
could evaluate the program.
When I was a freelancer I probably wouldn't have bought this because budgets
were much smaller – I'd would have made do with Silicon Garden etc. However, at
MetroLight $1k for software is a super deal, compared to commercial L-systems
for SGI's.
Martin
Even if you don't finish that project with it don't return AWB. I believe this
is an important program for us all in the 3D(S) community. I don't want to
comment on the current state of the program and the docs because the only copy
I have is still labelled Beta(I wasn't on the program I just pestered David A.
for an early copy). However, the possibilities it shows for the future are
crucial for the wider useage of 3D. All my work is architectural the main
thrust of IPAS and general development tends to pass me by, for the moment. But
I do want realism for the outsides as well as the insides.
Everybody else…
What Martin meant by quoting the size of the executable was that AWB is a very
complete program, it even has a built in bit-map editor. For almost any aspect
of the scene you want, you say jump and AWB says "how high?", it then proceeds
to jump in slow motion but I firmly believe (hope?) that this will be sorted.
However it will only get sorted if there is a demand and a demand which
respects the complexity of what the program sets out to achieve. VistaPro is a
good program but very limited in its aims. AWB is aiming higher, V1.0 is the
first shot, anybody who seriously wants a complete 3D world to animate in
should take a long hard look at this product and consider where it can go with
support and encouragement.
To people already dismissing AWB as too expensive…
Go play with Bryce or Vista but don't carp, if you are doing this
professionally then $1000 is not a lot to pay for the missing part of your
animations – the outside world.
Sorry this is half rant, half plea but I don't want to see an important product
wither on the vine because this forum gets clogged up with ill-informed
complaints.
I hope to post a full review – warts and all – after I receive the full product
(and possibly after I have comments back from Moscow on my first impressions)
Grahame
Grahame,
I haven't receiver my copy of WB but it should be here this week.
Get people to post samples on the forum here so that it WON'T die. Its up to us
users to make it worth while.
When I get it I'll work on producing some decent output and putting it on the
forum.
Bye.
Mark,
I think you'll like the program when you do get it. It's a monster.
Patience, in every sense of the word is key with WB. As far as it's speed in
camera move animations… that can be a little disheartening. But if you look
at it with a slightly 'Zen' attitude, "the results are otherwise unachievable",
that may help.
Anyway, if you were runnning 3DS on a low end system you might feel the same
way. The possibilities would be great but the time…. argh!!!! This
product will come into it's own when it meets NT. Till then keep your cameras
still, your trees sparse, and use learn the Z-Buffer/Incremental technique
inside and out.
<<Get people to post samples on the forum here so that it WON'T die. Its up to
us users to make it worth while.>>
Will post a shot or two in the next few days, maybe a small flic, just for fun.
Brendan G.
Brendan-
Just got copy #84 today (Tues 10AM) of Worldbuilder and have already generated
a few incredible scenes!
At least you can do simple scenes right out of the box without having to go
through lengthy tutorials!
Next stop… flics!
Mark,
<< At least you can do simple scenes right out of the box without having to go
through lengthy tutorials! >>
In the words of the Queen of kool, Martha Stewart <g>
" It's a good thing. "
Brendan G.
Grahame,
>> Even if you don't finish that project with it don't return AWB.<<
oh, I won't. My company paid for it and if I returned it they might not let me
buy it again. I want the upgrade path to NT also.
I haven't entirely ruled out using it but there are plenty of problems
remaining which make it difficult. Alpha channel is a problem, but I'm the king
(or joker) of "workarounds" and I may have thought of one already. Export to
other programs is most likely but only when I get a darned good .3ds to .obj
converter that supports mapping. Ah, so many issues … so few brain cells.
>> I believe this is an important program for us all in the 3D(S) community. <<
I absolutely agree. It's valuable for anyone who needs to build a pretty
realistic outdoor environment. Uses could be architectural, games, broadcast
etc. I see this program blossoming into a "must-have" for those folks and well
worth the money for the non-budget challenged.
>>only when I get a darned good .3ds to .obj converter that supports mapping.
A company called Innerspace Labs makes a 3DS to OBJ converter that
keeps mapping coords and even keeps some hierarchy info. I've used it, but I
don't know if the mapping works or not. The # is (717) 754-3115.
David,
Blur
David,
>> A company called Innerspace Labs makes a 3DS to OBJ converter <<
thanks for the tip, mate. I'll check into it.
Hi Grahame,
>>What Martin meant by quoting the size of the executable was that AWB is a
very complete program…<<
Forgive me if I am misinterpreting your reply to Martin Fosters message re.
the "size" of the World Builder executable. I am confident that Martin is a
person of great integrity and I have witnessed him spending a vast amount of
time helping people on this forum, please keep up the good work Martin! I do
however maintain that the worth of an application is not proportional to it's
size.
>> do not carp<<
This is an open forum and Vendors of 3DS related products have a clear
promotional path to many potential purchasers, from the purchaser's point of
view, I find this to be an extremely useful way of finding out about products
and their usefulness. It is not fair however, to attempt to suppress anything
but positive, glowing testimonials about a product, particularly those that
come with such a unprecedentedly high price tag. Are you suggesting that we all
keep our mouths shut, don the Rose-colored spectacles and indicate to Vendors
everywhere that we have a bunch of blank checks ready and waiting for them,
because we can afford it?
>>ill-informed complaints<<
Where are these complaints? Please quote one.
My main comment on World Builder really centers around the subject of IPAS,
not so much the "integration" part of it although to many users it might make a
big difference, shelling out or exiting 3DS to run the application, I do this
with 3DS\Vistapro for a living and it can get quite tiresome under heavy
production schedules. If World Builder is really a "plug-in" to 3DS, fair
enough, if not, can we please stop referring to it as an IPAS.
A large part of the "spirit" of IPAS has always been that what we pay for in
an IPAS module is the "meat", by this I mean the real functions of the
applications or those which are not present in the shipped version of 3DS. This
helps to keep the price down because the developer has been able to avoid
writing a mass of routines which 3DS already handles brilliantly such as
Display handling, file handling, Network handling, Dialog box functions, 3D
Math functions, User Input functions etc. If World Builder is not a "plug-in",
then it will contain it's own versions of all of the above functions and I
can't help but assume that a certain percentage of the asking price will be
based on the development time spent on reinventing all of these wheels. I
personally would rather dispense with the reinvention and would be more
inclined to pay up if I knew that I would be getting just the "meat".
Brian Howarth
I would like to second this.
>>>> I personally would rather dispense with the reinvention and would be more
inclined to pay up if I knew that I would be getting just the "meat".<<<<<
Will
After working with Worldbuilder for only two hours I am truly amazed! A quantum
leap over vistapro… Well worth the price!.
Will post some scenes tomorrow!
>> It is not fair however, to attempt to suppress anything but positive,
glowing testimonials about >>a product, particularly those that come with such
a unprecedentedly high price tag. Are you >>suggesting that we all keep our
mouths shut, don the Rose-colored spectacles and indicate to >>Vendors
everywhere that we have a bunch of blank checks ready and waiting for them,
>>because we can afford it?
>> Where are these complaints? Please quote one.
Hi, Brian!
There is very active section on this forum it is called "IPAS Usage".
You may find there not only complains and bug reports, but also workarounds and
exuces.
This section, actually is called "Ads", and with my limited knowledge of
English,
I would rather expect here more positive words about IPASes (and even some
exageration),
then compains and critique.
Regards,
Alex, Video International
Hi Aleksey,
Thanks for the advice, when I have a message to post that relates
specifically to IPAS Usage I will be sure to use that forum section to do so.
In this instance however, I have posted TWO messages, each of these was a
response to other peoples messages and it seemed appropriate therefore to stay
within this thread which as you will see is entitled "World Builder IPAS".
Perhaps you could track this thread back to it's origin, then re-read my
responses in context. I hope you will then see that I have simply queried two
notions, one regarding "size' of an application vs. value, the other being that
potential purchasers may value a product and be more inclined to purchase it
based on it being referred to as a genuine IPAS Plug-in to 3DS. If World
Builder is not in fact a genuine IPAS, it's supporters, Vendors, Users etc.
should not attempt to perpetuate this myth by discussing it in IPAS related
sections of this forum.
I hope that Animatek can help out here by providing a useful info file about
World Builder, perhaps incorporating a detailed feature list, how the product
relates to 3DS, Screen-grabs of the user interface, typical rendering times for
example scenes, and most importantly, a Demo version, cripple it as much as you
wish but I would love to get "hands on", because this is the type of product
that I use to earn my living and I would love to be able to present a strong
case for purchasing it to my boss.
Brian Howarth
Brian
I was going to reply to your original post but it really would have just been
flame fodder <g>. Seeing your reply to Aleksey (i.e. that you want a demo and
would like to be convinced) I withdraw everything I wrote but didn't send. That
is the attitude I wanted to see and if new products are approached in that kind
of mood I have no problems. When you see it I don't think you will be
dissapointed by the possibilities, compared to VP3.
BCNU
Grahame
I agree with nearly everything you said, Grahame. AWB is a great program — if
I was complaining about the time it takes to animate a fly-through, it's only
because the scenery is so great (and easy to generate) that I want to have it
all, right now. I never cared for the VistaPro stuff I saw because it was
obviously so computer generated, but this landscape makes me think it's real!
I generated a Martian looking landscape that will have the Forbidden Planet
cruiser landing in — as soon as I'm done I'll upload the flic (still playing
with the problem of combining 3DS and AWB, but I think I've got the system down
the way I want it).