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#Not up to PAR

43 messages in this thread
#143804From: Roger DanielsenDec 27, 1994 1:05 PM
Just thought I'd share what I've done on my Christmas season. I picked a DPS PAR up about 6 weeks ago and had difficulties getting it to initialize from the getgo. After about a month the Micropolis hard drive quit spinning up when the machine was warm. So I called DPS. After busy signals and no return call throughout that day, I tried calling Micropolis to see if they had an opinion. They assured me it must be my power supply. So off I go on a quest for a new power supply. After three days I was able to secure a new power supply. Strange thing, everything else is working, though. Still the same problem. So I called DPS. They assured me it must be the hard drive. I called the distributor where I got the hard drive. They tell me after 15 days they have a contract that says I have to go back to Micropolis. I call Micropolis, wait on hold for 50 minutes, oh, and by the way it was 20 minutes on the first call, and it's not an 800 number. They say, well, if you've checked everything else, it might be the hard drive. They tell me they can ship one out. It'll take about 4 weeks. I call back the distributor where I got the hard disk. After about a 15 minute very heated conversation, they suggest that I should call back Micropolis and tell them it was a new drive and maybe they'll waive the $50 charge to send the drive out right away. I called back Micropolis. They agree to send a new hard drive as long as I guarantee the full purchase price on my credit card. Two days pass. The drive comes Fed Ex. BTW, meanwhile I've lost a 30 second tv commercial with about 100 hours of rendering time to all of this. I install the new drive. Strange thing, there is a little A sticker attached to the end of the serial number. We'll get into that later. I begin the arduous task of trying to recover whatever I can off the first drive, first thing every morning when the office is still cold and the original drive will still spin. A couple days later, I've got most of it over. After an attempt on attitude readjustment to get myself back into a creativity mode, I start to work. After about 10 frames written from 3D Studio to the new drive, it starts writing corrupted frames. I go in, delete those frames, optimize the disk, and start over. This time it writes half the original frame, half the second frame, garbage through the middle, and the old file name to the new animation. I call DPS. Must be my memory manager. I assure them that my QEMM has been quite stable over the last 2 years. The guy tells me that EMM386 is much better. OK, I'll try anything once. I've now got every computer board in my system strewn throughout the room. I'm now at this point out about 2 weeks of production time. Needless to say, EMM386 did not solve the problem. Another call to DPS. I assure them there is absolutely no way it could be a hardware conflict, because I no longer have any hardware in this computer that it could conflict with. They agree that maybe they should look at the board. And oh, btw, they ship ground UPS, which is of course the preferred mode of transportation of your computer parts during the holidays, if you're in a professional production environment and need your stuff in a hurry. I call FedEx and start an account. After 2 or 3 days of the board being at DPS I get a call from the technician, who has been working the board over. This guy was a very articulate individual, very reluctant to pass judgement or blame (That was refreshing), and he was unable to get the board to hiccup once. I say, I'll call back up Micropolis. At this point I've got Dorothy's personal number in customer service. I ask her how her weekend's been. She says fine. I said "Is there any chance you could have shipped me a defective drive?" She says "It's possible." and agrees to send me out an additional drive if I give her my credit card number to guarantee the full cost of the drive. I call FedEx to return this drive. BTW, I've now got a fairly good rapport going with my FedEx guy. You know he's from Vermont originally, and used to have rabbits. He's having Chicken Stir Fry for supper today. Nice guy. Another day later, and the new drive arrives. I install the new drive. Everything seems to be working ok. Hallelujah! I begin to reassemble my computer and clean up my office, which now looks like Ghengis Khan stopped over for lunch and stayed a week. I begin to try to get back to work. BTW, the new backup system I just purchased seems to be working ok. More incidental expenditures. It's only money. After about a day, while doing a test preview, one of the frames seems to hiccup and make a strange noise when 3D Studio tries to write the file. After going into the PAR software, that frame also hiccups when you play the animation and makes a really strange noise on the hard disk. I start trying to rediagnose the drive again, using all the tricks I've learned over recent history. After optimizing the disk, the hiccup disappears. But guess what, it reappears in the middle of another file. I call up DPS. I talk to, I think it was the same guy who told me I had to be using EMM386, who now says it sounds like some kind of thermo-something on the hard disk. It's now Christmas Eve and everyone is closed for the holidays. And I am now very close to 3 weeks of screwing around listening to everyone blame everyone else. Today I call Micropolis. My first question is, what is the little A sticker after the serial number? Are you sending me a remanufactured drive in lieu of my faulty new drive? They confirm, all replacement drives are remanufactured, and they have no new drives there. I reply, Micropolis has <no> new hard drives? He says, no, not there at customer service. He suggests if I want a new drive, I should go back to where I bought the drive. I share just part of my happy story, and he puts me on hold, returns after speaking with probably a supervisor, and agrees to call their other facility and try to send me a new drive. End of saga to date. First a warning: Anyone who would not use Stacker on a hard disk should definitely stay away from the DPS PAR because trying to diagnose one of these systems is worse than trying to find an electrical problem in a British car. (To all of you non-automotive types, they use a positive ground.) Another thing, I wish others would have been this forthcoming with how difficult to diagnose and basically flakey this whole juryrigged operation can be. To say that this mess is a handsdown replacement for single frame to Betacam is a far too oversimplified take on things. If an edit deck won't edit, you send it in for service, and either borrow or rent a replacement. Maybe an afternoon's driving. This mess has cost me three weeks, and over a hundred hours of rendering time, and didn't do much for holiday cheer. I did have a rather good Christmas, didn't come down into the office all weekend. Didn't even want to look at the rat's nest of crap lying all over the place. How was your Christmas? Roger D.
#143841From: Yost GroupDec 27, 1994 6:02 PM
Wow. I am amazed that you're still talking to all of us. (And I feel very lucky that 3DS wasn't part of your nightmare.) Good luck resolving it before this weekend so you can start '95 off on the good foot! – G
#143863From: Roger DanielsenDec 27, 1994 9:26 PM
Gary, Thanks for the empathy. Yes, 3D Studio, as usual, just keeps plunking along. I also hope the hardware gods smile upon me in the new year.<g> Roger D.
#143845From: david W. mennenohDec 27, 1994 6:08 PM
I feel for ya Roger. What a bummer. Your story did make me laugh though, if that makes you feel any better. (the part about the FedEx drivers rabbits) I sure hope you get everything back to normal, soon…. Good Luck. Dave Mennenoh
#143864From: Roger DanielsenDec 27, 1994 9:27 PM
Dave, <<the part about the FedEx drivers rabbits>> Believe it or not, you got the abbreviated version. The long version could have qualified to run along with Dave Barry's better stuff. <g> Still trying to keep a good attitude. Hardware! Yucky, pooey! Roger D.
#143849From: Jamie CarrDec 27, 1994 6:24 PM
Roger, What a great story ! The problem you were having sounds like a hardware problem. Do you have a Pentium or a 486 ? (Pentiums generate more heat than 486s and need more cooling) What wattage is your power supply ? (A low wattage power supply for your system can produce unstable results) How large is your system's case ? (A small case will mean more heat is trapped in the case) How many fans do you have in your system ? Is there a separate fan for the PAR drive ? How many PAR drives do you have (1 or 2) ? In relation to the software setup of their systems, the problems that people have with the PAR are usually: 1. Using Windows for Workgroups and they've turned 32 Bit access on – not a good idea as this is incompatible with the PAR software 2. They are using QEMM – this has bugs and I would recommend EMM386 as DPS told you 3. Using Stacker or some other type of disk compression on the DOS drive – can't pin down this problem but it seems to produce unstable results 4. Check which version of the PAR initializer you are using and if you're not using the latest upgrade it. (dated 8/11/94) 5. Check you are using the latest version of the PAR driver (1.30b) By the way, when you said you picked up a DPS PAR where did you get ? Did the dealer you bought it from not offer you any after sales service ? I know a number of PAR dealers and if you had told them of your difficulties I am sure they would have helped you out – that's what dealers are there for. If a dealer had configured your whole system I am sure that your problems would have been alleviated. A Happy New Year 🙂 Jamie Carr in:sync (a happy PAR user)
#143856From: Paul Sanford [LVL5]Dec 27, 1994 8:12 PM
Hi Jamie and all, >> (Pentiums generate more heat than 486s and need more cooling) << I am getting a PAR soon. I already have a fan on my CPU as well as for the tower. I have heard there are actual fan boards for about $20 that plug in to an external bay. A wise investment? I am upgrading to a more powerful power supply too. Paul S.
#143998From: John K. JordanDec 28, 1994 5:16 PM
Hello Paul, I had to put additional fans in both of my computers before I was happy. I used small 12v muffin fans salvaged from old power supplies and simply propped them up or taped them into position inside the case with the airstream directed at the disk drives. Before I did this, the all three of my Micropolis drives were hot enough to fry eggs on – now they are all at room temperature. I wired the fans into the 12v pins on the drive power supply pigtails. I wouldn't waste money or slots on a fan board. You really need the air blowing directly onto the drives. My pentium case has an extra fan built in that circulates air near the processor chip – I added a baffle that directed the air directly onto the chip. I also want to put in a fan directed towards the PAR board, as it gets HOT. JKJ
#144031From: Paul Sanford [LVL5]Dec 28, 1994 9:44 PM
Hi John, Thanks for the tips about the fans. Will ditch the fan board and arrange for alternatives. I currently have a VERY hot running Targa+64 board too. I'm moving up from a mid- to a full-tower. Will make use of the extra space for new fan(s). Paul S.
#144036From: John K. JordanDec 28, 1994 10:04 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention another possible configuration. A World Famous Forensics Expert and Animation Wizard who frequents this forum simply keeps his computer cases wide open with an external 8" fan blowing on everything. Talk about keeping your cool. Next best thing to a refrigeration system! JKJ
#144052From: Paul Sanford [LVL5]Dec 29, 1994 12:29 AM
I remember seeing that (the 8" fan). I am also considering the first ever water-cooled PAR system. My aquarium should be about the perfect size. Paul S.
#144164From: Dec 29, 1994 6:19 PM
Paul: >> I am also considering the first ever water-cooled PAR system. My >> aquarium should be about the perfect size. <ROTF,L!> Greg Pyros
#144674From: MARTIN G FOSTERJan 2, 1995 7:58 PM
JKJ, >> A World Famous Forensics Expert and Animation Wizard who frequents this forum simply keeps his computer cases wide open with an external 8" fan blowing on everything << ROFL!!! Me too. The only way I can keep my PAR/TBC system running reliably is with the case off and a 12" fan set on high directed at the boards. Put the case on, and I get communication time out messages from the PAR software.
#144680From: James BieblJan 2, 1995 8:54 PM
Martin Yeah…fans are fine for you guys in Southern Cal; I'm catching bloody Pneumonia from the drafts caused by all the bloody fans I'm surrounded by. I've got a tell-tale on top of each case. Baja sounds nice. JB
#144712From: MARTIN G FOSTERJan 2, 1995 11:47 PM
Jim, >> I'm catching bloody Pneumonia from the drafts caused by all the bloody fans I'm surrounded by << I know, I know. It's cold here too (relatively speaking) and I sometimes wish I didn't have to the fan on. My tootsies get cold <g>
#144044From: Robert A. WeilDec 28, 1994 11:25 PM
John – Ditto! I bought several muffin fans for $12 bucks each and have them pointed at my PAR and at the 2217A Micropolis. I did this after reading threads up here about difficulties people were having with fried drives and corrupted files – no problems of any kind, and the PAR and drive are not even warm to the touch! Bob Weil
#144928From: Dennis FenskeJan 4, 1995 7:44 AM
Robert; >> I bought several muffin fans for $12 bucks each How big is a "muffin fan". I guess I should get a couple for my system. Should I be able to locate these at any/most computer stores? Thanks, Dennis
#145091From: Gus GrubbaJan 5, 1995 12:03 AM
You find them in "hack" computer stores or electronics surplus stores ($1 each type deal). They vary in size between 1" and 4". You should look for anything that will fit inside your computer and it must be 12V (though you could use 110V I wouldn't advise). Just use a spare drive power cable to drive it. While at the electronic store, you could also get an oversized heat sink (an aluminum extruded comb) and glue it with heat transfer glue on your hard disk. Note that my computers are "ON" since last May (when I moved over here) and I haven't ever had any of these problems (albeit it's a bit cooler than most places).
#145117From: Dennis FenskeJan 5, 1995 8:23 AM
>> "hack" computer stores or electronics surplus stores ($1 each type >> deal). They vary in size between 1" and 4". I know just the "hack" store. I think I've only been in there once. Ok. Thanks Gus. Dennis
#145100From: Robert A. WeilJan 5, 1995 1:25 AM
Dennis – >>>How big is a "muffin fan". Well, I guess it's about the size of – uh – a muffin. I have no idea where the name comes from, but their are a variety of sizes. I subsequently realised I paid a little more than I needed per fan, but such is life. These fans run on 12 volts, and usually PCs have an extra drive power line dangling that you can tap into. Cheapest insurance I ever bought.
#145118From: Dennis FenskeJan 5, 1995 8:23 AM
>> about the size of – uh – a muffin. That got a chuckle. Thanks Bob, Dennis
#145152From: James FranssenJan 5, 1995 12:04 PM
>> These fans run on 12 volts, and usually PCs have an extra drive power line dangling that you can tap into. Cheapest insurance I ever bought. << Robert Hi. I am curious, as I hear much about the PAR drives overheating, as to which HD's are overheating. I have a Micropolis 1.7, but it does not seem to give me any heating problem. Is this just the case with a slave drive setup, or should I consider getting a fan too, just in case? Thanks.
#145175From: Robert A. WeilJan 5, 1995 2:32 PM
I have the 2217A Micropolis – and gets downright HOT. If you've watched the threads over the last six months about the PAR, a fair number of people have complained about the heat coming off the Micropolis drives (and off the board itself), and there have been reports of drive failures. The SCSI version of the Micropolis drive has had alot of reported problems on other forums. Although I'm very happy with my Micropolis, I already have an oven, so I bought two fans – one directed at the PAR board and one at the Micropolis. It became especially hot when I had it near another hard drive. If you have another drive to compare it to, I think you'll see a difference (as long as it's not another Micropolis 🙂
#145535From: Dennis FenskeJan 7, 1995 4:52 PM
Bob Weil and Gus Grubba; >> Well, I guess it's about the size of – uh – a muffin. >> Cheapest insurance I ever bought. I didn't go to a "hack" store, but a used/new store because it was closer. I was able to locate some 3" "muffin" fans today for $7.00 each. I bought three of them. I mounted one as an extra exhaust fan for the case, and put one near the PAR boards, and one near the Drive. Thank you very much for bringing this issue up! Dennis
#144231From: Accu-WeatherDec 30, 1994 7:06 AM
John, Mother of all Mothers of Invention, K. Jordan.
#143865From: Roger DanielsenDec 27, 1994 9:27 PM
Jamie, <<What a great story!>> Thanks. I just wish it was somebody else telling it though. <g> Nah, I don't really wish that on anybody. To answer your question, it's a 486 system, a normal Gateway AT/XT desktop case. The PAR disk was in the lowest blank, right below a dual floppy and CD Rom. The 2 hard disk spaces have got Western Digitals, one 4 years old, and one 2. So this puts the disk right in front of the fan on the bottom of the computer, probably the coolest spot in the box. Micropolis's spec sheet for that drive gives an operating range from -40 to 65 degrees Celcius. I think 65 degrees Celcius is something like 145 degrees F, isn't it? I don't think the inside of my case has ever reached that kind of temperature. Also my old power supply was 250 watts, ran the first drive for about a month. The new power supply with more power leads is rated at 300. I'm not trying to use the PAR at all in Windows, and my reference to Stacker was more a reference to how most people felt about proprietary formating of disk drives on this forum in the past. It's not on this system at present. PAR software? I've used everything from 1.08 to something like 1.34b. BTW, I wish they'd quit using us all as beta testers. Buying it from a dealer? I did. He's primarily an Amiga dealer. I do quite a bit of modeling for them in 3D Studio. <g> Once you get past basic install questions, he's pretty much lost. He only handles the tiny Seagates. That's mostly what his Amiga customers have been buying, so I got the hard drive somewhere else. There's the major pivot point. I think it's come down to the hard drive, and the fact that Micropolis keeps sending me refried refurbished replacements. At least that's my suspicion at the moment. The problem with trying to get this all sorted out is two totally and completely interdependent pieces of equipment (the PAR board, the hard disk because of a proprietary format) which are very difficult, if not impossible to test independently, and two nonrelated manufacturers perfectly willing to point the finger. Thus, the customer is up the river, without a paddle, during a drought. I just may try to snag up one of these VISTA boards people have been posting for sale, and keep looking for a used LVR. Thanks. Roger D.
#143866From: Paul LindDec 27, 1994 9:33 PM
Roger if you get totally fed up, send me the PAR and the drive and I'll send you a 4M ATVista and a Diaquest 422 with the AA board. 🙂 Paul
#144185From: Roger DanielsenDec 29, 1994 8:06 PM
Paul, Thanks, I already own a DQ422, but if you have a price in mind for that 4Mg ATVista, email me a note. Roger D.
#144676From: MARTIN G FOSTERJan 2, 1995 8:07 PM
Roger, >> it's a 486 system, a normal Gateway AT/XT desktop case. << that's probably a bit too small of a case, with insufficient airflow, I'd guess. I have a large tower case which I have to run with the cover off and a 12" fan directed inside. Otherwise, I get errors running the PAR software and my animations break-up on playback. You should consider adding a lot more fans to the case, or even another case with extra fans.
#143919From: David RhotenDec 28, 1994 10:06 AM
>> They are using QEMM – this has bugs and I would recommend EMM386 as DPS >>told you I have used QEMM for years and the number of problems I've been able to attribute to it have been MINISCULE! I've had NO PAR problems from QEMM 7.04 or 7.5. Dave
#143976From: Jamie CarrDec 28, 1994 2:14 PM
David, I only say don't use QEMM because in certain cases – (related to using SCSI drives) QEMM falters – These problems only start to manifest themselves when you push the system and I believe that the latest version has fixed this problem. Unfortunately not everyone upgrades to the latest version whereas people ususally have the latest version of EMM386 as they seem to upgrade DOS as often as they change their socks 🙂 Jamie Carr in:sync
#144110From: David RhotenDec 29, 1994 11:57 AM
>>as they seem to upgrade DOS as often as they change their socks 🙂 Eyyyuuuuuuggghh! With SOME of the people I know, that's probably not too often! <g> Dave
#143854From: Dec 27, 1994 7:05 PM
Roger: >> How was your Christmas? Couldn't have been much worse than yours! Actually, just to make you feel better, I want to tell you that I just basically went through the same thing with a US Robotics Sportster 28,800 baud modem. After re-doing all my UNIX software that accesses it (mail, Internet account, bbs software, etc) and still having problems, I even went so far as to load a new patch on my UNIX operating system and re-compile the kernel to see if that was it. No luck. Finally US Robotics sent me a FAX stating that there was a bad batch of chips used, and that they would send me a new chip, free of charge – but they didn't have any more, and it would be at least two weeks from today. But, hey, it's a computer! It's logical, right? Greg Pyros PS – at least my PAR's working! :^)
#143867From: Roger DanielsenDec 27, 1994 9:42 PM
Greg, <<At least my PAR is working>> Yeah, but what do you know about your FedEx person? <g> Roger D.
#143954From: Dec 28, 1994 12:33 PM
Roger: >> Yeah, but what do you know about your FedEx person? <g> <ROTF,L!> Good to see you are keeping up your sense of humor about this, especially during the holiday season! Keep it up! Greg Pyros
#144182From: Roger DanielsenDec 29, 1994 8:06 PM
Greg, Flash, update!! Yesterday, I received my 4th hard drive. Despite the fact that it's another rebuild, this one appears to be holding its own. Now I suppose since I just typed that, it's doomed to blow, but I'll keep my fingers crossed. How is your modem? Roger D. P.S. Have you hugged your FedEx person today?
#144333From: Dec 30, 1994 5:08 PM
Roger: Glad it's all working! A series of bad hard drives – who'da thunk it? >> Have you hugged your FedEx person today? Only when she brings checks or toys! And when my wife's not in the office! Greg Pyros
#143887From: John K. JordanDec 27, 1994 11:53 PM
Yikes! Great story! I had a 1.7 gig SCSI Micropolis that did that after 6 months or so. I was able to get it to spin up if I turned it on its back and applied freeze spray to a certain chip. My vendor was happy to replace it, even after 6 months. I think the remanufactured thing must be common with drive manufacturers, as I got nearly the same story from Maxtor about another drive. Lets face it, these guys are into volume and profits. Your PAR story sounds remarkably similar in some respects to Alec Jason's story. He went thru several drives and eventually had to get the PAR board replaced before his problems were solved. JKJ
#144183From: Roger DanielsenDec 29, 1994 8:06 PM
John, Thanks. I actually was able to recover most of my data off the first drive by wrapping it up in plastic and setting it between two Blue Ice cooler ice packs. (Don't try this at home…I did make sure that no humidity was able to leak into the bag and cause condensation.) But it kept the drive cool long enough to retrieve some stuff. It sounds like maybe they shipped me Alec's drives. <g> Boy it's really hard to pin things down when they keep moving. Roger D.
#144555From: Dennis FenskeJan 2, 1995 12:22 AM
Roger; Thanks for relating your story. WOW! I think I have had the same problem as you. It was about last May however. I kept getting one or two frames out of an animation that had wierd lines on them, and the hard disk made a funny sound on those frames. I had rendered to targa files and was copying them to the PAR when this would occur. It seemed to happen when the Drive did it's temperature recalibration about every 8 – 10 minutes. I think it was called T-cal. Does that time frame sound like something that may have coincided with your messed up frames? "To All; If that is the problem, what (if anything) can be done about this?" I didn't know what to do, and needed to finish the animation, so I re-rendered just those frames, and cut and joined the animation to finish the project. At that time, I thought maybe it was something I had inadvertantly done. So I didn't post anything to the board. Now however, I am wondering if I have a problem that I should have found and fixed earlier. I am new to getting paid for animations, and haven't really done anything since then. So now at least, I will need to look into this. I have another job coming up for the same customer. I bought two Mic 2217A Drives. One for DOS and Targa files, and one for the PAR. I just looked, and the guarantee on the drives is for five years, so that makes me feel better. Dennis
#144700From: Roger DanielsenJan 2, 1995 10:49 PM
Hi Dennis, That does sound like one of the hard disks I had the pleasure of taking delivery of. What it turned out to be was a bad spot on the hard disk. It showed up in the middle of an animation. Once I optimized, it was in the middle of a different animation. My suggestion would be to render a real simple animation to your PAR drive, and either copy it end to end until the disk gets pretty close to full, then play it back or even just record some video from a VCR and see if you can isolate the bad spot. If you find one, delete everything on either end, except the bad section. Record something else and see if that's ok. Optimize your disk. My bad spot moved into a whole different animation. Anyway, that's how I found out that was what was the matter with that disk. Another one of them, you couldn't seem to get rid of the names of old animations. New animations would take on the old file name, and throw in some corrupted data from the old animation to boot. These were all 2217a's. I also got an email message from someone in a position to know that the 2217a's are very suceptible to overheating and should only be installed with one inch clearance on all sides. Don't ask me how that's possible, but that's what I was told. Every since I got that message, I've left the blank off in front of my PAR drive. I'm going to try to pick up an extra fan this week to aim over the top of the drive. Good luck. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. Roger D.
#144724From: Dennis FenskeJan 3, 1995 1:53 AM
Roger; >> and see if you can isolate the bad spot. Then do you leave that animation there forever to prevent the disk from using the space? >> My bad spot moved into a whole different animation. Can you expound on this? If you leave the corrupt animation in place, did it then move to another animation? Thanks, Dennis
#143918From: David RhotenDec 28, 1994 10:06 AM
Roger: I'll probably be sorry for saying this, as this month has NOT gone extremely smooth for me, but I've not had a single HARDWARE problem with the PAR/Micropolis since I got it in late Oct/Early Nov. <<Knock on wood!>> Dave