#DESK TOP VIDEO
40 messages in this thread
Greetings, I am interested in software for desktop video and related matter for
using vcr's to Amiga, freeze framing, dissolves, etc.
Tony,
I am not a regular Amiga user (my 2000 should be delivered next week), but
I've just spent about 400-dollars on phone calls to software reps and
manufacturers to get much of the same information you're looking for so I might
be able to save you some effort.
From all the tapes and examples I have seen, the Amiga cannot do the same
level of graphics you see on your TV at home. So far the resolution isn't there
and it takes forever to build a program. (This is where all the Amiga
cheerleaders who read this groan).
If the software and hardware suppliers tell the truth (and so far, I've
found that like their counterparts with other computers they don,t), the parts
will soon be availble to do broadcast quality.
I'm buying one because even if I just use it as a character generator and
nothing else works, it's a cheap character genrator at broadcast standards.
You will probably run into a lot of folks who dearly love an Amiga and
don't like people who don't. I've found most folks are into the computer for
it's own sake and, like Pittsburgh Steeler fans, will back it and look at the
bright side no matter what. I'm waiting to be convinced.
I don't know the computer but I do know video. I've just spent 20-years in
TV news, the last five with a network and I'm starting a company to do
production. One of the few people who speaks on that level about this computer
is Philip Imbrenda at the National Amiga Video Users Group at 609)848-5698.
Commodore (after about twenty calls) referred me to him. He used an Amiga to do
work…. not "demonstrations" and owns a commercial production house. I'm not
endorcing him nor his company, but he answered more questions in one phone call
than I got answered in fifty.
If you like, and you're not in a major hurry, I can let you know how the
2000 and it's toys that I ordered works. My uses are almost singularly
broadcast level video. A lot of my friends in the video production community
are also interested in how an Amiga works, so it will be no troube. The only
thing you should know is that we're all interested in it doing high quality
stuff c
For whatever it's worth, Manhattan Cable TV uses the Amiga, as does NYU, some
TV weather reports, as did Max Headroom on AABC, etc. The newer genlocks and
composite video interfaces being developed shouldn't hurt any. This is not
ultra hi-res, but neither is it a $50k machine.
Ron Troy
Ron,
I'm not down on the Amiga….as I've said, I just put out four grand to
see if it can do serious graphics. All my message was was a warning…people
who are big fans of the computer, at least the one's I've talked to, seem to
sing it's praises and compare it to cubicomps, etc. The fact is yes it is a
heck of a lot cheaper and no it is not in the same class.
I think with a lot of toys it may be able to do acceptable broadcast level
stuff (I've already invested a great deal to find out), but the toys aren't out
yet and the people who are using it…those Max Headroom and Weather stations
guys you talked about…have it mated to some serious, expensive broadcast
stuff….one inch machines, with TBCs, DVEs, etc. which raise the level to way
beyond the home videophite or small production house.
I can assure that that there are hundreds of folks who want it to work…
to do 80-percent of the level of a cubicomp or paintbox at a tenth the price.
I just don't want the casual observer to think he's going to be able to do
the graphics intro to the CBS SUNDAY NIGHT MOVIE with this thing.
I talked to a station general manager yesterday and a freelance producer
yesterday. They want it to work, but they're waiting to feel and touch the
products that make it do real stuff and SEE real results. It's a whole new
market but these folks aren't cheerleaders…they are pros who want to get
results and save money.
If I can get it to do what I want, I'd be more than happy to sing it's
praises from the rooftops, but so far I've found a little self-deception and
false praise from manufacturers who expect me to understand it isn't QUITE as
good, but I shouldn't complain because they are committed to an Amiga. Big
deal. I'd be happy to let you know how I fair here… DCH
Well, something that costs one tenth the amount, and does 80% of what
can be done sounds like a good deal to me. It is not a Cray by any
stretch of the imagination, but it doesn't cost megabucks to own, either.
Since you can buy ten of the things for the price of one minicomp,
I would imagine there would be some increase in production on your part.
It is not designed specifically for broadcast use, but does a pretty
good job of it, I think. And there are 'toys' coming out that may make
it even more attractive. For lower level 'presentation' use, it can be
a budget saver. I have used it for presentations at work, and it does
more than any other system any where near the price! Though I do not
expect the Networks to rush out and scrap all the high end gear they have,
I have heard of small shops using it to great effect for the more mundane
tasks, freeing the higher quality gear up for other uses.
I am in no way associated to the Video business, but have talked to
people who are, and can only give you what I've heard, and my own limited
experiences with the machine, as examples. You are more knowledgable about
exactly what is needed in your business so why not spell out your needs
to the companies here and elsewhere? I am certain the someone will
listen and come out with the things that you require.
Just some thoughts,
Douglas Winger, 71001,1335
Doug – the problems are (1) the resolution is too low; _Especially_ in HAM
mode; (2) not _Nearly_ enough colors… again, including HAM mode…. those
4096 colors allow 16 shades (if you're lucky) of a particular color; not even
close to lifelike, unless you're quite careful. Next is compute power – which
there is a lot of, in an Amiga, and you _can_ upgrade that – probably should,
if you're going to be doing things that take 2 days otherwise. CBM is
responsible for this video-hype… perhaps with a 12 bitplane system with a 24
bit palette at a rez of, say, _at least_ 1024^2, You could really DO those
presentation quality intros and so on. In the meantime, unless the letters are
MANY pixels high, or the pictures are generated within a VERY limited set of
conditions, the Amiga isn't going to crawl in and displace any of the
professional systems anytime soon. There are the video-quality problems, too…
but, again, those are the _easy_ ones. –Ben–
Ben,
I don't use the HAM mode for what I do with the thing. I do feel that
with some upgrading, and cafeful choice of what you intend show, the
Amiga is, or soon will be, a nice way of unloading the equipment you would
mormally use. It offers a cheaper method of 'simple' video. I do have
an idea of what is available out there (Gasp!) and I feel the Amiga
can fill this role, albeit in a limited fashion.
If you want an idea of what I mean, check out the many presentational/
graphic programs for the IBM. <snickers are heard> In the level of
Business Presentation, especially in house, the Amiga is the cheapest
way to go, upgrades and all.
I do not mean to suggest the Amiga will displace dedicated equipment.
There is no way for it to match even the simplest (but hideously expensive)
Video workstation. However, I still feel that if you're careful, many
things may be taken over using the Amiga, while leaving the other
equipment free for the more intensive and time comsuming tasks. I do not
expect to see any of the major networks suddenly buying Amigas, but for
the small shop, acceptable results are obtainable. Zuma Fonts is but
one example.
Again, I am not in the field and can only suggest things from personal
experience, and from what I've heard. I must bow before your (presumably)
superior knowlege.
Doug
p.s.Now that the formal stuff is out of the way, where's 2.25? <grin>
2.25 is brewing right here. It has gadgets that allow you to individually
select whether the italics, boldface, and underline features are active; that
allows you to get text pictures, for instance, with those characters in them
and still remain in Ai CO. Also, 2.25 pulls the name out of each line in co and
makes it available to you for use in your macros; When someone says "Hi, Doug"
*you* can say: "Hi, Someone". Also working on the error handler (of course).
–Ben–
Doug:
I am not a video type either but I have seen some pretty good
industrial video presentation/training studios. Now looking at the equipment
that they are running (sync generators, video recordes, etc) I have noticed
that they have paid many thousands for a video titleing machine that is
considerably harder to use than the Ami and not even close to its versitility.
On the other hand, I recognize that some of even that expensive
equipment may be 'obsolete' as far as the industry is concerned. Since all of
the 'video professionals' seem of pretty much one accord with regard to the
Ami's capabilities in this area, I would say that with the right equipment that
it can offer quite a bit to the knowledgeable user but only within its
limitations. 73, bill
Bill,
You're right in saying at worst the Amiga is a darn good character
generator….which brings me back to where we started this string. That's why
I'm going to try one with my new company.
There are other consequences as well. Cubicomp and Targa, to name two
firms, have reduced prices….some say…because the Amiga is CAPABLE of
grabbing a lot of their business. That market is the folks I was talking about
in the beginning.
I'm a video not a computer person and don't know a hell of a lot about
this stuff…but from what little I do know, the Amiga is capable of real good
stuff if someone would get the pieces on the market.
I agree with Ben Blish's list of what needs to be done from the internal
graphics end. Now that real genlocks are appearing on the market, we also need
all those digitizers and buffers just over the horizon, along with a real
editor controller package…preferably running off timecode and plugging into
U-Matic, 1" (CMX or otherwise) and S-VHS (if anyone ever sees it works and it
turns out to be a real medium)..along with BETA.
I'm aware that I'm beyond the home video hobbiest area. But it seems to
niave little me that for about 10-grand (based on what seems to be the level of
current pricing) and some devoted computer folks catering to the low and
mid-level video folks building the right plug-in toys, they can have a machine
that does video wonders for the bread and eats the market.
One thing they can't play is normal computer company games…it's just over
the horizon or we THINK it will work. Panasonic's parent company tried that
with the MII tape format and Sony beat them hands down with BETA before they
left the gate.
I just hate to see potential wasted.
Regards,
David
David,
I'd wager that the drop in price on the Targa and Cubicomp has less to with
the Amiga than with products like Vision Technology's (Everex's) 16 bit frame
buffer (~$1500) and/or a couple of others like an announced one from ATronics
for (~750). Not to mention the new generation of framebuffers that will be
zooming along with the TI34010 chip.
Miles
Miles,
No doubt they are all a factor. The point is that the cost of electronic
graphics versus quality of graphic balance is moving in the consumers favor,
and the Amiga could be a better part of it.
Over the years, I think we have all see the gap between professional and
consumer elevel video (including computer) equipment narrow dramatically. I
would hope that with some tinkering, the Amiga could be one of the toys to butt
the two sides.
Regards,
David
David:
I am quite sure that you are right. I would think that part of the
problem is that you are talking about a totally different market than the
machine was originally targeted for. I think that the business professionals
are the ones that will make the difference. I am sure that most of the
manufactures are reluctant to take on such a specialized market as the
professional video market. What is probably going to happen is that the
developers that are making the hardware for 'home video' work will keep
upgrading their products until they reach the minimum standards for broadcast
quality. 73, bill
Bill,
As a reformed TV producer (ten + years, two local Emmys), I can tell you that
the only reason our dear Ami will get its foot in the door is PRICE.
The machine I have at home does things we barely dreamed about at the start of
my career; paid tens of thousands for five years ago; and now can obtain for a
few thousand. Granted the "state-of-the-art" has stepped up a notch or two,
but, the prices havent
dropped that much.
The Bean Counters running TV today care not about quality -technical or
otherwiseor otherwiseall that counts is their bottom line.
And, Ami fits nicely!
F. Rawls Sansone
Ben, you think that cbm will ever release the newer chip set that they got from
'the father of the amiga'?
Ron
I dunno. They probably don't understand it. –Ben–
Ben, I've got trouble. The hd won't validate, though I did get a mrbackup full
backup done. For the life of me, I can't figure out what to do next that's
safe. Any help would be appreciated.
Ron
Sounds like you habve the wrong number of sectors/track. 18,… right? NOT 17!
–Ben–
Ben, I don't know. It was working rather well until now, except for occasional
not dos unit in unit x messages. Clearscsi crashes or guru's the machine every
time. Now, the hd is —-. I have backed up all before the final calamity,
but I don't know what to do next. I will call Ed.
Ron
Also the resolution is not "mapped" to NTSC standards, so you get artifacts.
I'm surprised that no one has made a board with say the new TI chipset, that
would allow at least 256 colors on the screen at once.
Mark
Doug, I believe David meant that people would _like_ is to do 80% at 1/10 the
price. Unfortunately, stand alone the AMiga cannot do it. *BUT*, with "toys"
it can. Several hi-resolution frame buffers are surfacing, or will in the near
future. These, coupled with an '020, '881 board, and software to take
advantage of both, will let you do at least 80% for _STILL_ 1/10th the price.
People who expect the Amiga to do what a cray, cubicomp, or bosh soes, are
either fooling themselves, or have been fooled. For low-end video productions,
the Amiga, coupled with a good quality encoder will suffice. For anything
better, more "toys" are needed.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with what you've said, but I also agree with what
David has said.
GreG
GreG,
If you read what I said carefully, I did mention the additional 'toys'
that would be required for serious work. I also mentioned that things
were expected to be coming out for the Amiga that would enable it to at
least fill the low end of the market. As it is, stand alone is good for
the most basic use but not for the studio quality that is being discussed.
I still feel for business presentation, it beats everything else in the
price range as well as most of the stuff priced well above it.
Doug
It's always the case that what the amateurs among us will rave about something
that the pros will look at and sa: "It's crap."
Regards, Larry.
What? Me rave? Hmmm….didn't sound like raving to me. Just an observation.
I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject, but I do know what I've
seen, heard, and experienced. I am willing to wager though that you get
more bang for the buck out of the Amiga. Though it never will take the
place of dedicated equipment, I still feel it does have its place in there.
Outright dismissal of the machine smacks of elitism to me, and rankles.
GreG does make some good points in this thread, with the observation that
as is, it fails to achieve what would be considered 'acceptable' broadcast
quality video. I just am of the opinion that it could be upgraded to the
point necessary to achieve acceptable results without spending The kind of
money that buying a dedicated machine would involve.
Not in the least bit raving, no, not a bit,
Doug
You _always_ rave…. every nite, I listen to you rave. <grin>… –Ben–
Ben, that ain't raving, that's _Ranting!_ Dontcha know the difference?
Douglas,
I went back and read the rest of what has turned into a long string before
coming back here. If you haven't read it yet, do, and you'll see what the video
folks need.
I did try to contact a lot of the peripheral and software firms before I
order the 2000 by the way…with the thought that I would set the system up and
find out how it work, then add the toys like the videotoaster or framegrabber
when they came out (if it wasn't too long) and make it into a poor man's
do-everything-graphics-machine. I wanted to find out what I needed in the basic
system to make their stuff work and find out if it would do real stuff like
real-time composite digitizing, 16-million colors and real (TV NTSC)
resolution.
They didn't want to talk about their products. I should just wait and see
and it might, just might be out "sometime this spring". When I explained that I
didn't want to drop five grand now on the possiblility that they'd come up with
a professional product sometime in the future they said "sorry, we got a lot of
complaints, so we aren't talking".
I obviously decided to buy the machine and take the chance anyhow..but
these are the folks you think would be receptive to videotype input.
I have a three hundred dollar phone bill that says they aren't as receptive
as you think. It's not all of them, of course, and I guess they have their own
sources of industry input, but I got enough of that kind of answer to scare me.
Please don't misunderstand. A lot of folks in the industry think a lot of
the potential of the machine and the fact that it can do Chyron-level character
generation now. And they all talk to each other. They are aware it's low level
now and are waiting to see if it can do more. My point is that I don't want the
casual observer to be fooled. I know a guy who did several of the
"demonstrations" on some Amiga show tapes. They're nice.. but they were dumped
onto one inch…went through a Grass Valley and a CMX editor and too him four
months to do. That's the high priced spread and a lot of time…more time and
money than Fred in Peoria has, so he shouldn't
David,
I didn't say the Amiga was _currently_ every video maven's dream come true,
just that the basics are there. You are right to say that it doesn't
currently support what you need; but you are also right in saying that the
potential is there.
As for various companies lack of responsiveness: I can only say wait until
after AmiEXPO. It may change somewhat after then. As for the RSN response,
I have experienced that for years with various other manufacturers in othere
disciplines. ( A very good example was Grumman's CAD/CAE/CAM sofware package
a few years back. It was going to be upgraded "Real Soon Now" for over a
two years. It was, and was worth the wait. Or so I am told)
I feel certain that you won't be dissapointed with your purchase, and am
certain that what you are looking for will eventually arrive.
I am not a champion of Brand Name Loyality by any means. I just feel this
wondrous machine shows so much power and potential it isn't fair to just
dismiss it out of hand.
I have been following this thread and some interesting points have been
raised by many people, Both expert and amateur, concerning the fitness of
the Amiga for use in video production. Keep up your search. It will lead
to improvements if only because someone became aware that there is a potential
market out there for professional level equipment.
Good Luck, and Happy Hunting,
Doug
Tony:
There are quite a few video types on the forum here and they will no
doubt jump in with some information. In particular Greg is a sysop here and
into video. Joanne Bandlow (sp), Mike Burrow and many other can probably help
you out (I think I clobbered just about all of their names). Welcome to the
forum. 73, bill
There's a host of software for this purpose. The trick is to get clean
composite from the Amiga. I recently looked at some video tapes created with
VideoScape 3D, and Amiga 1000, and a really nice encoder (for generating the
NTSC composite). Stuff was broadcast quality. It really surprised our video
editing studio. It really surprised me.
For dissolves some of the slide show programs support this…
What encoder was used? Also, I Imagine you meant to say that the signal you
got out of the AMiga was broadcast quality, not the quality of the images. 🙂
GreG P.S. Any release date for the much needed Object Editor for Vscape? Will
it have the rumored price tag of $140?
The images were shown on Broadcast TV and looked (from the 3/4" tape) about
Bosch NGS 4000 level. They did use an encoder. The object editor should be
out early this year. It's titled "Modeler 3D", I don't have a price at this
time.
P.S. it can import/export from Draw Plus.
What encoder did they use?
Mark
They used an encoder that was created for a RGB camera. I don't have the exact
specs, but I'll try to get them. Best quality Amiga video (signal) I've ever
seen.
They also created a complete building model for VideoScape (big building) down
to the 1" level of detail, about 5000 3D points. It took 1.5 min. to generate
each frame.
Sounds really great. Are you aware of the graphics programs available for the
ST (Cyberpaint, Cybercontrol etc.)?
I was wondering how the Amiga software was coming along. Last I heard there
wasn't really good tools for doing 3D animations, looks like that has changed!
If you could get a company name on the RGB encoder it would be helpful.
Mark
The Amiga 3D stuff predates Cyper stuff by quite some time. I like the Cyber
series. My only problem with the stuff is that you can't put ST stuff onto a
good video tape. Sort of like having a desktop publishing package without any
printing support.
Yep, know what you mean. We have an RGB-Composite convertor coming out next
month, but due to the ST's limitations it isn't really broadcast quality. We
hope to have a Genlock working in the next few months that is.
Mark
Hi Tony, first off…Welcome to the AmigaForum! We have many members here that
are using the Amiga for DTV and related applications. If you can tell us what
your needs arem I'm sure we can help. There are many software packages
available, as well as hardware that are very well suited for DTV and such. To
mention them all and describe them, would take forever (well….almost) <grin>.
But, to answer one of your questions, The Director which uses a script
language, much like BASIC, does do dissolves. That along with wipes, fades,
custom wipes, color cycling, animation, sounds, built in text routines, etc.
GreG