#New Apple "Performa"
58 messages in this thread
What is the future of the Amiga ?
I know, a few years ago, everyone clamored for a new machine, and finally
we got the A3000. Many people asked "where's the improved colors ?"
"Where's the SCSI-II interface ?" "Where's the high density floppies ?" (A
few greedy people even wanted 24 bit color)
Last year everyone started saying "Get your but in gear Commodore.
Everyone's catching up and you have no marketing strategy. Where's the new
products ? And why is a 5 year old design (A2000) still have a 7MHz chip,
1 MB RAM and cost over $1,000 ?"
So they released the A600. (Did anyone scream for more ?)
And now the A4000, with (take a giant leap backwards) an IDE interface.
Where's the 24-bit Commodore ? Where's the SCSI-II ?
On top of this, MacIntosh has just released news of their "Performa" line.
The specs read suspiciously like an A3000, including the "Accelerator
Slot". However, it is cheaper, and comes with an optional internal CD-ROM
drive.
What this tells me is three things :
Commodore has the right idea (technically speaking)
Apple is willing to borrow ideas from competitors
Commodore had better wake up, or they're going to lose their technical
edge. They lost any marketing edge they had a long time ago./exit
The only retro thing about the A4000 is IDE, and that's being addressed.
The A3000 now sells for $1495; quite competitive with the Performa.
I'm sure Apple forgot Commodore existed sometime around 1984. Otherwise
they'd have sued them by now. 🙂
Commodore hasn't had a marketing edge since Shatner beamed up in the early
80s.
Denny,
I've asked this here before but got no response but does the $1495
include monitor? If so I'm going to get mine now!
…Steve
On AutoPilot! (at last)
$1,495 include monitor !!! I seriously doubt it, when the A2000 cost $1,000
bare, and that's the street price, isn't the official price still over
$1,200 ? An is that $1,495 the street price ?
I'm glad my comment started this ball rolling, but let me add that the
Performa is a 32 MHz (that's what the article said, 32) 68030, with
optional coprocessor. Also, it supports the Apple "32 bit color" standard,
what ever that means, I've never seen anything better than VGA equivalent
on a Mac, course I don't use one.
I am not sure about 32 bits on the Mac but on the NeXT, 24 bits is for
color, and 8 bits is for transparent colors. It is used for example when
you wish to overlay two objects one over the other. One can be made
transparent.
It is usefull for example, if you design a car. You then design the engine
inside the body. Then you can make the body of the car transparent so you
can see the engine inside. Pretty fancy!
Yeah, you can do this just fine in Imagemaster, too. It's not something
that is in any way limited to the Mac world. Furthermore, you can channel
the transparency over 24 bits, not just 8, for a total of 28 bits
involved. The Amiga's got a LOT of good image manipulation capability, in
some ways a good deal more than the Mac.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Sounds good, wish the mainstream amiga software could use this resolution.
(DPaint, PPAGE, Page Stream, PDRAW, etc…)
You might want to know about several high end video products that *do*
support high color on the Amiga. for one, the EGS board from GVP adds some
libraries to the OS that all programs can use to display 24bit. PageStream
for example will run in 24bit mode. This board will operate at 24bit
colors in resolutions up to 2048X2048! Even higher than that with
scrollable windows. The new 3.0 OS with the AGA chipset allows all
programs to use the 256color/16m pallette or the 256K/16m pallette. A good
example of this is the new ProWrite which takes advantage of this new
feature. Hmmm. How much do you know about the Amiga it's hardware and the
current available software???
-Jonathan
3.0 OS ? You mean Workbench 3.0 ?
My technical knowledge about the Amiga is somewhat limited or outdated. My
Amiga experience is limited to using its software. DPAINT, PDRAW, PPAGE
and some others. I also have many old games like Defenders of the Crown.
Very old stuff…
I would really need help right now. My Amiga is back in one piece. Have
been able to connect it to Compuserve, but don't know how to use the Com
software "Comm 1.34" from Eyo Sama. It is the only Com software I have
right now. I don't know how to log in from the Amiga. I am now back on
the Macintosh. The Macintosh does everything for me, and my experience
with telecommunication is pretty limited to the regular telephone
services…
Would appreciate any assistance.
However, I have been doing some work with it for the past 5 years. I have
used the Amiga long enough to know its position very well. I am not the
techno-type of guy, I am a graphic artist ! My interests are in computer
graphics and I try to keep track of all the latest computer technology;
Amiga or not ! I don't understand the difference between VGA, EGA, XVGA or
whatever else. I do however understand things like color and resolution.
That is what matters to me.
I know software like PDRAW from one end to the other. The same can be said
about DPaint and many other software on the Amiga, on PC and the Macintosh.
For the past 3 years, I have been teaching WP 5.1 in many offices downtown
Montreal. And for very large companies. In some places, I have used the
Mac for DTP. I did once learn how to program in Assembly language, but
this is very far away now. I forgot most of it (almost five years since I
used it). On the Vic-20, I had built a low-resolution graphic package. It
could be used with a Joystick (mouses were not availlable for the VIC-20
then). It kind of worked like a very basic Mac Paint. Since the Vic-20, I
have always been loyal to Commodore, but Today, I need a Macintosh. I am
however considering replacing my aging Amiga soon. I think it would make a
terrible duo with the Macintosh for what I do.
Comm 1.34 was written by Dan James, not Eyo Sama.
Steve
Sorry Steve, you are right. The name Eyo Sama was all over the package!
Jean-Eric,
Use the Mac term program of your choice and download Backtalk here in
AmigaUser forum or Autopilot in Amigavendor forum. (I hope you have cross
doss or a similiar package for the amy. Use the Mac to save the files in
MSDOS format. Use Cross-Doss to get it from msdos to amiga format.
Backtalk will get you around here and other BBS's, and Autopilot will
automate your sessions here on CI$. If you don't have Cross-Doss or other
package to read msdos files, try to get Comm at least to download one or
the ohter of the above.
The $1499 price for the 3000 includes all the options you said where
needed ie flicker fixer, hard drive and controller ect if you have a
monitor your ready to go! And that is a bargain! This is the 25 mhz 030
with 4 megs of ram, so you are functional right out of the box!!
…Steve
On AutoPilot! (at last)
There is a new ROM and Workbench (3.0) to address the new A4000 and future
machines. It supports the 250K colors out of 16million and a bunch of
other stuff. The 2.0 OS is old news (several years now.)
If you want to pump up your machine, get the 2.04 ROM (3.0 is for AGA
machines only) and new software on a big hard drive. Yes, you will have to
fork out dough.. That is if you want to upgrade. You can upgrade bit by
bit or just get a new machine. A3000's are selling cheap nowadays….
-Jonathan
Wait until 1993, plan to get A4000 then. I want to see the machine first.
I wish the prices you mention were canadian. Prices here are much
higher…
Thanks for the info Jonathan.
Jean-Eric Henault
PageStream uses it just fine, thanks. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Steve,
Nope, the $1495 doesn't include the monitor. I still think it's an awesome
deal, though. If I wasn't buying an A4000 I'd be getting one… 😉
You can always use your old monitor and upgrade to a VGA/multiscan
later…
Let me remind you it is very close the suggested retail price suggested by
Commodore for an Amiga 2000 with no hard drive not so long ago.
The $1495 is also a suggested retail price, the street price will be much
lower.
The street price won't be much lower at all. I got the distinct impression
there's VERY little margin (money for the dealer) in that $1495 price.
Add the price of a flicker fixer to your Amiga setup and the prices quiet
compare… Don't forget a hard drive. This device is no longer an luxury
these days.
Eric,
The A3000 comes with a built-in de-interlacer, I also believe that the
package in question comes with a HD. From reading your messages in another
on-going thread here, I think I've noticed one of the problems with your
arguements… you seem to have an A500 as your Amiga (that you felt was
inadequite and switched to a Mac… how much did that Mac cost anyway?) and
at the same time, you don't seem to be aware of the capabilities of the
higher end machines.
The A3000 also comes with one of the fastest DMA SCSI implementations on
any platform today. It comes with 2.0 (maybe 2.1 now/soon?) in ROM…
which brings me to another question from the other thread… were you
running 2.0 on your 500 or 1.3 ? If 1.3, that would explain some of the
crashes you seem to be talking about, 2.0 is much more stable of an
enviroment to work in.
While the A500 is a very capable machine (I think you noted that it runs
PPAGE faster than your new Mac), you get what you pay for and it was never
meant as compitition for PC clones and Macs (ie. you should not be using
your experiance with it as your basis for comparison).
– Keith
Amiga: "The Future's So Bright, I Gotta Wear Shades…"
I am sure the A3000 and up are much better than my former A500. However,
most of the problems I had with were neither with its OS or the hardware.
My biggest problem was software. I need to know the software I buy will
still be supported and updated regularly. I need to know that in a year
from now, the company who makes PPAGE and PDRAW (the most important
packages for me) will still be there.
My mac cost me a lot of money. I wish I could have spent that on an Amiga.
But I need a machine who can do high-end color DTP. The Amiga does not yet
have the software to do it. Also, there is currently no DTP package on the
Amiga that can support more than 16 colors in high-resolution.
Yes My A500 is still running under 1.3. Kickstart 1.2. It is a vintage
1987 A500. One of the first to roll out of the assembly line. One meg ram
and two drives. But again, it is the software I did not like.
If I could make two wishes and it would come true, I would ask that Adobe
Illustrator was availlable on the Amiga, and I would have direct access to
24 bit color. This sounds impossible for now. Even with the new A4000.
256,000 colors is nice! But even IBM has been doing it since 1987.
I still use my old A500 sometimes to play Populous II. I even reached the
last level.
"256000 colors is nice! But even IBM has been doing it since 1987"
Hold it, there, Pardner.
IBM has been doing 256 (that's two hundred and fifty six) colors since
1987, NOT 256000. THose 256 colors had a _palette_ of 256000, which is
quite differnt.
The Amiga 4000 has a palette of 16 MILLION colors, and 256000 colors (not
256) it can do at once. Even IBM's newest "thing" has fewers colors, much
less the ancient trash from 1987.
If you're going to be an advocate, you need to go do some fact collecting.
I think the primary reason you're being so negative is that you're not
particularly well-informed, yet you are very concerned. Add the
information you are lacking, you might not be so concerned, or then again,
maybe you would – but then you'd be _right_. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Sorry, was told the Amiga had only 256,000 colors period. I learned about
the 16,000,000 colors just after I left that message.
Thanks for the info.
Then there's the fact that most of the 32,000 color IBM cards can only do
that in the "standard" VGA resolutions…. Something about the "HiColor"
chip that makes the 32,000 color modes die at 800×600 resolution. Never
mind that 800x600x32000 is advertised, it doesn't work all that well.
// Brian — Cruising on AutoPilot…..
\X/ AMIGA Hopefully sparing the wallet some bruising…:^)
DTP package on the Amiga that can support more than 16 colors in
You're remarkably misinformed about the Amiga considering how strongly
you've stated your opinions. For example, The magazine INFO was created
entirely with Amiga software and hardware, and the results were extremely
"high end".
Steve
I see we don't have the same standards about "high-end magazines" steve.
Info was probably the most damaging product for the Amiga DTP market.
Keith.
>>Amiga: "The Future's So Bright, I Gotta Wear Shades…"
I _love_ that comment.
Thanks <grin>… who'd I steal it from… Huey Lewis, maybe?
Keith,
TIMBUK 3 actually.
Randy Brooks
Wasn't Huey! But I can't remember just now… It was one of my favorite
songs!
Bob Comer
(someday I'll make a .tag file 🙂
The $1495 list price is for an A3000 with hard drive. 25Mhz '030 as well.
The A3000 has a built in de-interlacer! Do you know the product line at
all??????
-Jonathan
What I know is that the A3000 costs a fortune around here, even before the
sales tax. Last time I asked for the price, it was around 3,000 – 4,000 $
for the basic package. That was about 6 months ago. I live in Montreal,
Canada.
I don't expect to buy a new Amiga before New Years day.
I don't know who you asked, but the price should be pretty close it… It's
$1499 *LIST* here in US dollars. You make the conversion. What does it
come out to? I called a mail oder house, and he is selling A3000's for
$1399 plus shipping or with a VGA monitor for $1549. That is a complete
system…..
-Jonathan
Get some American $, drive across the border, buy one in the US, and drive
back across the border. Of course, you _should_ declare it @ the border
crossing, but it might cost you less to do it this way…..
// Brian — Cruising on AutoPilot…..
\X/ AMIGA Hopefully sparing the wallet some bruising…:^)
The $1495 is a promotion and not a price change that has been made
permanent. At least not yet. There is *very* little markup — so I doubt
you will see 'street' prices much different.
-mark=
The A600 is pretty much for new users and game players, Did I scream for
more? No! I'm not a first time computer user, nor do I play to many
Games.
A4000 and IDE — Not a GIANT leap backwards, It's true that I'd prefer
SCSI-II, but I can understand the logic that put the IDE in the 4000.
24 bit color — The A4000 is a close to 24 bit as almost all monitors
can display, PLUS TREMENDOUS versatility (display wise), that no other
computer has!
SCSI-II will come soon, and I don't mind putting it in a ZIII slot. (If I
need the slot, I'll buy a tower!)
The mac Performa isn't all that good… Not very much expansion
capability, slow compared to an A3000, no CD-ROM on the ones I've seen,
and no where that I could see to put one (I may be wrong on that), and
worst of all, it runs Mac software 🙂 Besides, the new pricing on the
A3000 brings it down into their price range…
Sorry about flaming there, (long day at the office…) but all is NOT doom
and gloom
Bob Comer
Speaking of Performas, I happened to be in a supply store yesterday (the
huge "Office Warehouse" chain)… and they had a Performa 400 (same as Mac
II LC?) running a neat little audio/video demo. It was marked as normally
$2995 (?), but their price was $1495. I believe that includes 4MB ram,
40MB hard disk and 12" color monitor. Pretty impressive price.
The Performa 400 is a '030/16, 8 bit video, 3 NuBus slots, accelerator
slot, and expandable video (not sure about the video). 16-bit data
bus…Still, same price as 3000/25 4/50 W/O monitor (+$400)?
-SLH
Kevin,
I believe that the price on the Performa 400 (I still think that
"Performa" sounds like a condom) goes for around $1500…without the
monitor. Keep in mind that this machine it pretty much non-expandable,
and has a 16-bit memory bus.
Now…look at some PC prices. I just got a Gateway 2000 brochure that
is selling a *loaded* 486 66/33 DX2, with GUI accelerator (the latest ATI
card with VRAM…very fast, and local bus), 8 megs ram, 340 meg IDE HD
(again, local bus controller), monitor, software…for under $3000.
Jonathan
Jonathan, via AutoPilot // Only Amiga makes
\\// it possible…
I'd really like to see CD-ROM for the high end machines tho. Really,
_really_, REALLY!!!
If your talking about Amiga's, I don't blame you, it's not high on my list
of wants, but I'd want one eventually…
Bob Comer
Robert,
I was over in my local 'technical bookstore' the other day, and they
have 3 CDs _filled_ with Unix/Gnu source and a bunch of UseNet stuff. The
price is US$60. Now there's gotta be SOMETHING on those disks worth $60.
I did a brief look through the permuted index of files and it appeared
that the entire GNU source was on there. If nothing else, a fair amount
of it could be used (not the GNU stuff neccessarily) as an example of how
NOT to code in C <evil grin>
$60? Not bad! It'd be worth if you ever need to look at some compiler/OS
stuff! Maybe I'll have to think about getting a CD after all 🙂 But my
next purchase is going to be a new A3000 or A4000, I haven't decided yet.
(All I have now is and "expanded" 500 🙂
Bob Comer
I'd like to see a stand alone CD-ROM for the high end machines too WITH
a PCMIA <sp?> card slot too!
I think I'd like a PCMCIA also, good Idea! Love those nifty little flash
memory type cards…
Bob Comer
Right! A PCMCIA slot wouldn't take up much room <g>.
Paul:
You have some valid points. I think Commodore has made a step in the
right direction with the A4000. With the exception of IDE, the A4000
seems right as the next logical step in the Amiga evolution. I also think
that the A4000 is just the beginning. When machines designed around an
advanced version of AGA hit the market, I think the Amiga will take a
giant leap forward. For now, the A4000 can hold its own against the
offerings of other manufacturers.
As a design consideration, I hope that Commodore makes future Amiga
chip-sets easily upgradable so that when the PeeCee or the Mac (or
whatever else) starts to catch up, we can just plug the latest chip-set
into our Amigas to leap ahead again. I think the new modular approach in
the A4000 is a step in this direction.
As for marketing, I think Commodore has to wake up. They need to do more
to promote the Amiga. They also need to build a better dealer base and
work on attracting new developers. They need to better understand the
people who use the Amiga and be more in tune with those people's future
needs.
Wayne Steele
Saving $ with AutoPilot
I agree, although there will always be evolution in design that prohibits
upgrades. The Amiga chip set went to the enhanced chip set, but eventually
you have to expand the bus of the chips, which means more pins. So unless
you design lots of extra unused pins for future expansion that won't
happen, plus all thos extra pins have to be hooked up to something on the
motherboard, or they won't do anything when a chip finally comes along mto
use them.
CBMs marketing sucks, and always has and probably always will. It's one of
those constant things in the universe.
Paul:
Agreed. I just hope AGA has a better upgrade path than the original chips
did. ECS is hardly what I'd call a major leap in technology. 🙂
Wayne Steele
Saving $ with AutoPilot
Wayne,
But it was about the maximum they could do with the pins/busses which
were in already existing machines.
Vic:
I knew that. 🙂 I just hope that AGA machines have a little more room
to grow than the original machines did.
Wayne Steele
Saving $ with AutoPilot
Paul,
I wouldn't get too excited about Apple's new Performa line. MacWeek, a
pretty credible source in the area of Apple news, says the Performa 200 is
a repackaged Mac Classic II, the Performa 400 is a Mac II LC, and the only
*new* computer is the 600, offered with optional CD-Rom (that will
supposedly be one of the first with multi-session Photo-CD capabilities).
Apple's intent with the Performa line is to tap into households that
don't own computers, to simplify their purchase decisions (OS is already
installed on hard drives, etc.). Sounds a little like several flavors of
the PS/1. Anybody know how that is selling (I really don't know)?
At WOA, CBM said "exciting" things would be happening in the next 6-12
months. I'm willing to give them that, and don't want to hear how they're
doing anything wrong until at least 6 months from now, when we can see
firsthand what they're doing wrong. 🙂
*** jd, using AP from LA, CA!
I've been giving them 6 years. And just when things look bleakest they
come out with another tidbit. My contention has always been that they are
not agressive enough. R&D, where's the CD ROM that was supposed to come
out to make the A500s CDTV compatible ? Where is a 14 MHz 68010 Amiga
(should be the standard, all the hardware hackings been done for them) How
abot drives that don't click ? (All the software hacking has been done for
them) How abot those little improvements that would add little $$$ to the
manufacturing cost, but create interest, add polish to the machine ?
Marketing : I've never heard anyone give CBM credit for effective
marketing CBM proponents always say "We're making a profit", when they
should be out killing the competition. Sales always go up around Xmas,
which is also the time of year they push the A500s. Is this coincidence ?
If it is, why run the ads at all ? Is this a strategy ? Sure, not a good
one, but a strategy.
Does anyone remember Apples first ad campaigns ? IBM was the Big Brother
syndrome, everything was black and white until one individual breaks the
mold. The motto was "See why 1984 won't be like '1984'" They didn't even
show the computer in the entire series of commercials. Was it effective ?
Sure was.
I'm not in advertising and don't wish to be. But it seems CBM should give
their few advertising $$$ to a small creative firm, that is hungry for the
business and in touch with the younger market. Forget going after the
older market, once a person gets comfortable with a machine or software,
they don't like to change. Start young, the Nickolodean game show is a
good start. Do more with schools, edge Apple out of edge Apple out of that
market. MORE EFFECTIVE ADVERTISING CBM, not necessarily more expensive.
Paul,
I too have been an Amiga owner for over 6 years, and have been satisfied
that the computer I've had has done what I've wanted in a home computer.
I also have felt the future was murky and at times dim, but that was the
future. I've wanted better software, but that's not CBM's line of work.
You have some good points. The problem is, I don't work for CBM. I don't
know if anyone from CBM is even on CIS in any official capacity any
longer. If you *really* want to offer your advice and be heard, you
should send a letter to CBM in Westchester. There ought to be other
people here who can help you send it to the right person.
Even if they ignore your letter, at least you might feel better and would
at least be getting your opinion known to people that count rather than
turning off potential buyers (and shooting Amigans who want to see a
prosperous future in the foot).
*** jd, using AP from LA, CA!
Don't think I haven't tried to write to CBM. Usually deaf ears. One time
Computer Graphics magazine did an article on Unix Based Multimedia. I
wrote them a letter asking why they didn't review the A3000 U/X. They
called me on the phone and told me they tried to contact CBM, who only
would give them the specs, no help on say loaning them a machine to try
out!!!
Something else to note: At WOA< they said they would ship in the first
week of October – and my dealer has his 4000's right _now_.
Gives them a great deal of credibility in my eyes – and I may be oen of
the world's worst cynics.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
"… may be one of the world's worst cynics…" ??!!
try THE World's… !!! B^)
stay first,
Chris