#Y/C Plus is coming!
52 messages in this thread
Well for those of you who are interested in Y/C output, and since the
'wraps' are coming off VERY soon….
The stuff you've heard about something called 'Y/C Plus' providing Y/C
output for you toasters is true. It was designed by a very good friend of
mine (now a NewTek refugee – something I bet they'll regret <g>).
He tells me the first ads will appear in the next Toaster User magazine…
This is gonna be a HOT product — although they're still getting some of
the business aspects finalized… Interest is so high in the thing, even
though the guy that invented it was the best man at my wedding, I'm STILL
gonna have to wait in line for one! I'd be interested in doing some
recon/feedback to him from anyone that gets one out there in the 'real
world'…
Hmmm… I guess since this is a product that is for use with the Toaster,
that this stuff is still appropriate for this forum? No?
Keep on Toastin'! -Luke
Hey, Hey, I've got a copyright on
'Keep On Toastin'! . . . NOT! (I can't believe I just wrote that :^)
Sounds like an interesting unit.
Is it digital straight to Y/C, since it doesn't seem to make much sense to
go from composite digital to composite analog to component analog?
And, anyway, how much of a signal improvement do you get?
Since the Toaster is D-2 internally (or so they say), and D-2 is a
compnent digital format, it seems like you would still see composite
artifacting from the compositing of the color and luminance info within
D-2 signal (it's just 8 bits at 4xSC sampling rate [14Mhz]).
Is this Y/C input too?
Keep On Toastin' )'92 Erik Flom
P.S. Feel free to use the slogan 'Keep On Toastin', I just
think its cool that others have started using it.
BTW, its supposed to be a take-off of the 'Keep On Truckin' slogan
that Robert Crumb (famous underground comic book artist of the 60's-70's)
used in his 'Mr. Natural' comic strips. If you ever have a chance, check
out his stuff – it's pretty weird (in a fun sense, not like many
ultra-violent underground rags you see today).
t t d3 t r/Hi! When I read the first part of your msg on the "copyright"
NOT! on Keep
Hi! When I read ther first part of your msg on you "copyright" NOT! on
keep on toastin', my first thought was whether YOU had gotten clearance
from Mr. Natural! I luv it!
I'm not all that into the nitty-gritty tech details of Y/C-Plus, but I'll
hang on to a copy of your message and asked Gary how he desigined it.
PLEASE don't hold me to it, but the general impression I had was that this
was an OUTPUT device — dunno for sure…
I'll pass along anything that I find out… 🙂
Keep on Toastin' // Luke +——+
| |
Erik, et al
I had a chance to see a Y/C board at the last NewTek U. It was still a
hand made one so we had to get it back. The output looked pretty good,
but I didn't see a huge difference in a live feed. The graphics output
however looked great! Little if no chroma crawl from Lightwave output.
The card hooks internally to the Toaster and provides 4 S inputs and 2 S
outs. You can also use the outputs on the Toaster. I'll be interrested
to see the final card.
— JG
<licensed to fly>
Erik, et al…
Well, I never thot I'd stand up in defense of a "manufactuer", but I guess
I'm seeing it from "the other side" now…
The guys putting together the Y/C Plus are scrambling like maniacs and
busting their butts to get things rolling… It's a classic story in our
industry — someone develops a neat piece of gear and lotsa people want it
— but I can't believe all the stuff that needs to happen 'tween square one
and full distribution — to be honest, I don't know if they've even THOUGHT
about literature yet <g>.
It's been REAL interesting watching as a bystander as Y/C Plus grows up…
from a schematic on a piece of paper to people beating down the doors
wanting one — and watching my friend and his cohorts trying to figure out
how to meet the demand.
I'm about as impatient with vendors as ANYONE, but I have to say that I
think (although I'm biased) that if ya'll give the Y/C Plus folks a chance,
they'll get things rolling pretty quick…
Ain't the computer biz amazing??
Regards,
Luke
Don't get me wrong (that seems to happen all to often on CIS).
I am interested in the board, and don't fault them for not having any
literature.
Unfortunately, that does nothing to satisfy my unquenchable thirst for
knowledge. :^)
Oh well, maybe I'll stop by HT Electronics when I go to the So. Bay amd
see if they have any more info.
Thanks for your support,
Erik Flom
No problem, Erik!
As soon as I can corral Gary for a few minutes (he's been goin' nutz trying
to get the Y/C Plus to market), I'll see if I can get some good info
(detail stuff) and post it here…
Regards,
Luke
Thanks . . .
Y/C Plus, what is it? where did it come from? Where is it going?
'Enquiring minds want to know'
Erik Flom
Well, believe it or not, it comes from little ol' Topeka, Kansas, a.k.a.
NewTek land.
Ya know, the Land of Ahs… or so sez the Tourism Dept.
Hmmm…. This is beginning to look like I need to shanghi Gary and pump him
for info, before some of the tabloids print a picture of him with some
aliens from the planet Y/C (geez, didja see the one a the grocery store
rack of Bush & Clinton walking with an alien????
I'll see if I can get some mopre info for you folks, even though it'll
probably cost me a dinner for him at Don's Steakhouse in Lawrence,
Kansas… His usual fee that he charges me <G>.
Stay tuned – film at 11:00 as they used to say…
Regards,
Luke
'ALIENS LAND IN TOPEKA – OFFER SOLUTION TO WORLD'S PROBLEMS'
Seriously,
I got some literature for the Y/C+ and passed it on to a friend with a
BetaCam SP setup. He got excited, called them, and would have bought one
were they shipping (wish I had that much fiscal freedom :^).
Oh well, still waiting to see it in operation.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Geesh – I hate you guys too lazy to pick up a phone and call em! ;^}
1 to 4 Y/C inputs. Toaster inputs get converted to composit outputs (like
for true Toaster input monitoring!)
1 to 4 Composait inputs
2 Y/C program outputs
1 Toaster Preview out
Uses micro 4 pin DIN
Accepts Y/c Hi-8 S-Vhsa or S-Vidwo sinals
Reduced cross luminance, cross color, Morie, Dat crawl and incresed
bandwidth (to 500 lines Horizontal), less video artifacting, sharper
vertical lines, cleans up CG output YEAHH!!
Digital AVT technology, Lum and Chrom Comb gfiltering, Faroudja
technology.
Uses one Zorro slot, (and only one case back slot) Connects to Toaster
internally. Supplied with test jig for trouble shooting (if necessary).
Avail 1st quarter '93 (I belive this is accurate as it has not changed for
the six months or so that I've been talkin to them).
913 235 3481 for your own info sheet.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Thanks for the info – I don't think I even had their phone #.
I got some literature the other (BRIGHT red, orange, and black – OUCH! Why
do Amiga products always have such cheesy looking sales stuff? [Though
this brochure was FAR better looking than most I have gotten.] I guess we
can't expect hardware guys to be exceptional at EVERYTHING :^)
Looks cool, but since I just sell 3-D objects, and don't supply output on
tape, the point is moot – for now . . . .
I DID pass the info onto to someone who got on the phone and had his AmEx
card in hand though. He's still going to buy it when it comes out.
Well, I got 'em one customer already.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Just 3-D objects, huh? Got a cobra (snake not airplane or car version)?
I'm building one, but it ain't much fun. Animating it is going to be a
bear – gotta make it slither, raise up and expand its hood. Amiga 3-D
animation tools wer not made for this kind of orgainic stuff. If it wasn't
for the chaning camera view of the event and the necesity of having
bunches of 'em, I'd probably 2-D it.
wmc – via Autopilot!
No, but I saw a BEAUTIFUL snake in a demo tape the other day.
God, how did they make it slither?
Sounds like an interesting problem. Maybe a better modeler would help.
I haven't tried it or heard anything about it, but Will Vinton (of
Claymation fame) has released a 3-d animation package with his moniker on
it, I would think he'd have required some nice animation modeling tools
from the developers. Just a thought.
Anyway, good luck! :^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Actually the Playmation package (used to be Animator Journyman or some
such) looked more capable in this area, but I've heard it is tough to
learn and I hope that Lightwave will start to develope some more tools for
these more organic types of animation.
Anyway, I've just about gotten 3/4 of the way through modelling the cobra.
I just have no idea (aside from using multiple morphs) how I'm going to
make it move nicely.
wmc – via Autopilot!
YC Plus literature is available if yu call to get it. The other way to
get it is to buy (better yet subscribe to) Video Toaster user – big full
page ad there and a plug from James Hebert in his column.
A dealer network is being assembled – but with care. Smith AV does not
want "Hell, I don't know – call the manufacturer" dealers. They want "you
are doing this part wrong" or "yep – boards bad – bring it in and we'll
replace it" dealers.
The document is also apparently nearing completions of at least the
initial draft. As best as I can tell the board is complete, will list
about $950 is in the final testing stages (outside users and show units).
documetnation, packaging and distribution are being worked out now. Call
Smith AV to get on the mailing list.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Yeah, I keep meaning to subscribe to Video Toaster User.
Especially since the local dealer STILL doesn't have their latest
glossy 4-color issue on the racks. :^(
A friend got the latest issue, and it looks VERY nice.
VERY professional, and a nice change from the usual Amiga fare.
Keep On Toastin' . . . .
Erik Flom
Check waldenbooks or B dalton. VTU is getting some good distribution these
days
I may have to. Since none of the Amiga dealers seems to carry it.
I went to a Toaster User Group meeting a HT Electronics in Sunnyval, CA 2
weeks ago. Paid $5 to get in – what a waste of money.
One of the editors was raving about the mag, and had a copy, but NONE were
on sale at the meeting – they would be available at the store the next
day.
I went there a week later (2 days ago, and they STILL didn't have it).
Glad I spent an hour driving there. Grrr.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Just got back from WaldenBooks, asked for 'Video Toaster User', and they
said 'What?!?' "Vacuum (sic) what? . . What was the name?"
Oh well, maybe that place that sells IBMs (and Amigas on the side) in
Berekeley would have one by now? . . . . .
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
P.S. Still, . . . Desperately Seeking VTU magazine.
Check Walden Books or BDalton they now cary VTU…
Forrest
Thanks, I'm out the door right now . . .
(Well, in a few minutes, when I'm done reading the messages. :^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
VTU at B. Dalton?
NOT….
Well at least the stores here in K.C. (you know, right in NewTek's back
yard<g>) have never heard of it.
They said they could probably special order it — but I figure Lightwave
will be at rev 5.0 by the time I get this month's issue!
-Luke
(P.S. I just ordered a subscription to VTU — I hear it'll be worth it…)
and it's going to keep getting better!
— JG
<licensed to fly>
Mr. Natural is now an Amiga tech. living in San Francisco!
The compositing artifacts from the Toaster will probably still be there,
but going in and out in component between other devices s should help with
generation loss, and take advantage of higher quality output on some
devices which have lame (under 400 lines) output in composite.
What's his address? Is he available online?
Yeah, I agree with your reasoning re: generational loss improvements with
Y/C+.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Hi Erik…
I don't think Gary does much modem bangin' these days, but I'm gonna try to
haul him over to my place and show him all of the threads and see if I can
post some responses….
Regards from the renderin' fool,
Luke
(Rendering… doesn't that have something to do with sausage??)
Or didja mean "what's Mr. Natural's address??" <g>
Hi Erik:
Nit, but you mentioned that D-2 was a component signal, and I think you
might want to check this out a bit further. D-1 is component, but D-2 and
D-3 are a composite digital signal. I nit cause of all the glazed eyes I
get at the NAB and similar shows when a broadcast person learns I'm a
computer person. They naturally assume I know nothing of thier industry,
although I am a SMPTE and SBE member as well as a "computer" person for the
last 10 years.
Although video will soon be swallowed up like the proverbial Jonah in the
new digital world, we still need to be real aware of the skills that have
brought analog video to the point where it can be swallowed up.
Crossover skills in both industries are quite rare, spend the time on both
sides to enable all of us to make it to this "brave new world" by learning
about both. No flames, just a reminder that this is a very complicated
environment we have all sauntered into and a guy just can't have too many
Braodcast Engineers as her/his friend to grow with.
Terminology is important, just like syntax in a command line.
Profound thoughts/observations at the tail of your message on D2…
whatever…
I just can't resist adding my own two cents worth…
I agree 100%. I spent 10 years working in "tee-wee" doing engineering and
directing before I decided that I needed to make a few bucks to survive
(not wanting to move to a "major market") and went into computers (what was
it I read last week? 60% of local stations lost money last year?)… But
boy, with all of the bueracracy of working for an old line computer
maufacturer, I sure do miss the "controlled insanity" of directing
newscasts. And the people. And the creativity. And, well let's face it,
the FUN!
I just wish I could find a way to parlay 10 years of TV and 9 of computers
(plus a love for doing graphics, etc.) into a full-time position doing
both. (I'm currently trying to "force" this by starting my own
graphics/video production service company on the side — eventually full
time — but THAT'S a REAL tough way to do it. Even when you explain stuff
to the "high tech" investment finance types, they don't seem to see "the
magic").
Yeah, I've seen the eyes glaze over too… but occasionally you find
special folks that "get it" – like my friend and former boss Gary ("Mr. Y/C
Plus") Krohe and James Hebert… I KNOW theres a potential synergy out
there for TV/video and desktop systems — guess I'm just too impatient!!!
I recently read in a video trade rag (VideoMaker?) a rather profound
observation that agrees with yours — the technology is VERY important and
advancing at an explosive rate – but it's the PEOPLE with creative talent
that REALLY make it all happen and that REALLY make the difference!
Here's to the future!
Luke
I have a YC+ in my hands right now, Smith AV sent me one for a show we had
here last Thursday and Friday 5th and 6th of November, and the board
worked flawlesly, and best of all it is true YC, by by dot and CHroma
crawl, I laid down an Animation with it also, and the difrence is very
noticable… It is a great product and retial is under $1000 and the board
is using the Farudja YC encoding technology, and it is a veryt clean board
well assembled, and sheilded… This board is great we had about 10 orders
from our show that are definat orders.
If you use Super-VHS Hi-8 MII or any other format that gives you YC GET
THIS PRODUCT…
Forrest
Thanks for the clarification.
D-2 is definitely a COMPOSITE signal. (8bit, 4xSubCarrier, I believe.)
(If I wrote otherwise, it was purely a mistake. How embarassing! :^)
My main reservation about the Y/C+ board is that since you are still
dealing with a composite signal at some point in the data stream, you will
invariably suffer some of the data loss and artifacting inherent in
converting the video to another encoding scheme.
I believe that Y/C+ will ofer some definite signal improvement over the
composite outputs, but it won't get rid of all artifacts of the NTSC
signal.
I still applaud the developers and have already found them one customer
who called them with AmEx card in hand, ready to buy.
I can't wait to see it in operation.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
What I am hoping for is simply to go y/c into my ag7750. The composite
circuits in this deck are marginal at best. Y/C plus actually doesn't have
to improve over the Toaster composite to make big strides for AG7750
owners. I bet (just by eyeballing it) I don't get 260 lines going
composite into my deck. Y/C is definitely needed for getting 400 lines to
tape on the 7750.
Any other 7750 owners see this? Or is it just me, Jim.
Jim Roof
Jim, I think you'r right. I'm not sure what's the lines of res going in
composite, but I don't think I'm seing 400. I'm still curious about that
y/c+. No matter what, there is still going to be composite somewhere
between source and recorder, with the toaster in the path. It's worth
looking at it though. I'm still, whenever it's cuts only going direct y/c
to the recorder bypassing the toaster. 10 lb of electronics, no matter how
you slice it, it's 10 lb of trouble. Why send the signal all over the place
if not necessary. But, we'l see how this y/c+ will perform. george
George,
I talked to a guy at CCI electronics who was once a leader at CBS labs. He
knows his stuff. It is his opinion that going composite into a y/c device
is a next-to-fatal error because the manufacturers simply do not put any
money into the composite circuits. He has a device that I almost bought
(and depending upon the y/c plus I still may) that filters and transcodes
to a high quality y/c. They advertise in VT magazine.
Let me hear from you if you get more on this problem.
Thanks,
Jim Roof
Depands on the y/c+ performance what i'm going to do. Right now source 1
i'm running through an alta tbc to input 1 of the toaster. Source 2 is
going through a card personal tbc. genlocking from the alta. the alta is a
real good dedicated tbc. what i may do is get another personal tbc for
source 1, then the composite toaster output feed it through the alta
composite in y/c out to my recorder. But i'm still composite somwhere. I
hate this y/c to composite abck to y/c stuff. it causes havoc with the
signal no matter what. we'l see what happens with the y/c plus, maybe thats
the ticket. I wish i could end this misery and go component. Got a few (a
lot of few) bucks? <grin>. keep us posted, we need help out here. george
There is no composite signal when using the Y/C plus in and out with the
Toaster, it is not a transcoder, but a true Y/C in and out board for the
Toaster..
I know exactly what your talking about on cut edits bypasssing the
Toaster, but with the YC+ you no longer have to do that.
Forrest
Thank's, that would be nice. I'm looking froward to it's performance. Y/C
is bad enough, composite is even worst. I hate giving up direct y/c. It
sounds like y/c+ would do the trick. george
I think Y/C+ WILL offer many advantages to people with component video
equipment.
Unfortunately, all I've got now is a cheap <$200 VHS, and an ancient
SuperBetaHiFi (hey, I was young and impressionable – I didn't know any
better! :^).
Not much call for a $1000 Y/C decoder, at least yet . . . .
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
The YC+ board definatly takes care of Artifacting in the NTSC signal…
wit current Toasters every time you go another generation Dot Craawl goes
on top of Dot Crawl andding to it… if you keep the Signal YC all the way
until your FInal VHS DUB, the Dot crawl and other artifacts will be a
minimum… The Board makes a major difrence…
Forrest
Still waiting to see with my own eyes, but I believe you.
Like I said, I found 'em one customer who called them the other day with
charge card in hand. HE thought it was a good idea too! :^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
May I jump in here….. Have been following the affairs of the forthcoming
(?) Y/C Plus board. As my outfit use S-VHS and Hi8 in one edit suite, we
were – and are – interested. However, I do have some tight questions as
regards video processing for the Y/C Plus Toaster combination.
Although we have not got the Toaster circuit diagrams, we presume it
processes COMPOSITE in the 4,2,2 mode. To have it process Y/C as the board
stands, the Y/C Plus would have to transcode input signals from Y/C into
composite for the toaster. It would do the reverse for the outgoing program
video. Otherwise… a double transcoder.
Maybe the Y/C Plus folk have found a way of going into the Toaster circuit
– via the internal connector – so that the signal goes in, and is Toaster
processed in the Y/C mode, after which it exits. If this was easy and
possible, I wonder why NewTek did not do it themselves.
If indeed the Y/C plus is just a form of transcoder, I am worried. The more
circuits the video signal has to pass thru', the more it is degraded.
In summary. Am most interested, but first would like to see a professional
technical evaluation… with all the numbers, etc. Do wonder what the
asking price will be..
Regards to all…. Hilary
Hilary, your questions are valid. I'm concerned about the same things.
Also, there are a lot of folks, like myself, that purchased tbc cards with
s-vhs in, but only composite out dedicated for the toaster needs. Now, with
the y/c+, these tbc's are obsolete since the y/c+ to offer what it promises
to do needs a y/c input from a tbc. In other words, cant's use the tbc's
like the DPSII and others, and resale price will be dime a dozen. So, now
we will be looking in upgrading the tbc's. The y/c+ better be worth it.
Let's see what it does. george
George, You make some very good and valid points!
I do wish that, in all the reports upon hardware for the AMIGA, the
originators would clearly state that their gadget will work with….
(giving a list of other hardware). Must say I get very confused on this
subject. See new software/hardware. Gee! that looks great, it does
excellent things etc. etc. Then….. wonder if it will work in my setup???
The ad' does not tell me.
Someone should do a COMPATIBILITY CHART which shows the answer.
On the TBC cards. Presume the firms will start making cards with BOTH Y/C
and composite – in and out. We use standalone TBC's here which have this
ability. As they are high end units, we use them to transcode both ways.
Plus they have good proc' amps so we can touch up the picture.
Am keeping my ears to the ground (and my eyes wide open)!
All the best. HILARY.
I think you may be incorrect in your assumption that the Toaster processes
video internally in a 4:2:2 format.
4:2:2 refers to COMPONENT digital video (D-1, Y:I:Q – I think [Y=Lum. I &
Q are chrominance values])
I have been told by several NewTekians that 'Yes, the signal inside the
Toaster is COMPOSITE D-2 (8-bits sampled at 4xColor Sub Carrier or approx.
14.x MHz)
Since the signal IS COMPOSITE, there will be some artifacting as the
signal is transcoded, BUT consider this . . .
The COMPONENT Y/C signal is already being TRANSCODED twice by your VCR.
The RF signal coming off the flying heads is component (sort of Y/C).
This signal is then transformed to a Y/C pair of signals which are passed
out the S connectors. The composite output of your deck is just a mixture
of these two signals (This is where composite artifacting begins [assuming
the signal was recorded in pure Y/C]).
Going composite out of your playback deck, the signal is then converted
into D-2 by sampling circuitry in the Toaster.
This composite D-2 signal then runs around in your Toaster until it comes
out the Composite Program out of the Toaster.
This Composite signal then goes into the composite input of you recorder,
where it is TRANSCODED again into a component signal for recording.
Rumor has it that the TRANSCODER circuitry of VCR's is notoriously poor.
And, it would stand to reason they would pay more attention to the
component outputs, figuring if you go composite, you gonna be giving up a
lot of quality anyway. (This is JUST My Humble Opinion).
Since the signal is going to be TRANSCODED anyway, the Y/C+ board offers
the benefit of keeping the signal component until the instant it enters
the Toaster (important if your other studio equip offers Y/C I/O).
The Y/C+ board also claims to have special TRANSCODING circuitry licensed
from Faroudja laboratories (famous for the magic they can do with the NTSC
signal).
As such, it would stand to reason that the quality of the transcoded
<continued>
signal going into and coming out of the Toaster would be better than a
signal TRANSCODED by the 'cheaper' internal circuitry of the decsk you are
using.
Also, the Sugg. Ret. Price is around $950, maybe one reason NewTek
couldn't afford to add the Y/C option on the Toaster itself.
In closing, this is my untrained opinion, and I must admit, I have as yet
to see the board in operation.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Thanks for your reply and opinion Erik.
I stand corrected on the 4:2:2 bit. You are right – the processing claims
to be D2 (composite). Much of what you say is quite correct about the
signal path. The differences come from the various grades of VCR's used.
The pro' JVC and PANASONIC do a reasonable job with S-VHS.
Here I use some I.DEN standalone TBC's to do the transcoding job. They do
have an advantage of proc' amps to touch up the pic.
Before the TOASTER, we kept the signal Y/C all the way. Routed via TBC to a
Crosspoint Latch 6119 Y/C Switcher, then thru' a Supergen 2000s genlock in
the Amiga. We used the ext' key for titles, which were of very good
quality.
As I said, despite all the "Hoop-La", which will no doubt grow with an
approach to delivery, I would like to see the numbers of a unit being
tested with well calibrated instrumentation. And tested by a competent
engineer! Have seen too many "it looks GREAT!" type of reports.
Still………. I'm still interested in the possibilities of the forthcomin
Y/C PLUS.
Keep in touch… and with regards, HILARY
Glad to have been of some help – not that my knowledge base is anything to
crow about. :^)
Since I just do 3-D stuff, I don't even have a S-VHS consumer deck, much
less any 'real' video equipment. This makes the whole Y/C+ thing a moot
point for me.
A guy I work for will be getting one when he can, and maybe then I'll be
able to pipe in with one of those 'it looks GREAT!' comments.
I too, am waiting for an unbiased report of the technical specs of the
Y/C+ before picking it as a winner.
Does sound goo in theory tho'
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom