CompuServe Thread

#Imagine 3

55 messages in this thread
#66061From: jeff HolinskiOct 12, 1993 6:31 PM
Mike, Imagine 3 is scheduled to ship in a little over 2 weeks so I presume you're going to be beta testing it soon. How about uploading a few renderings done with the new version to get people hyped up on upgrading? If it actually IS that close to shipping will you be making any major changes to the program at this point? If not, how about a few screen shots of the new interface. :^) Also, I understand you were planning on major changes to the way it handles textures and brushmaps. Does the new system allow for a transparent background on the brushmap? What about a bright brushmap on a normally shaded object? Eg: lights in an office tower. If you're going to be making any changes to the way textures/brushmaps are handled in future versions of Imagine I recommend you take a look at the material editor in Real 3D version 2. It's a bit hard to understand at first, but once you get used to it it works better than any other system I've used. (including Lightwave, Imagine, and Caligari) I was also wonderign about those strange patterns you get off in the distance when you put a checkered (or any other) texture onto a ground. Is Imagine 3 going to cure that?
#66065From: Troy BarlowOct 12, 1993 7:47 PM
I hope they have been "beta" testing for a few weeks already! Nobody would wait 2 weeks before shipping to begin testing. Screen shots and a few renderings would be cool!
#66072From: Mike HalvorsonOct 12, 1993 8:57 PM
And everyone who cares. We are in constant testing, no longer do we use the phrase BETA, that is an old phrase that really does not apply that much to what is really going on with our development team. Also there is no way with a program like Imagine that we can test any and all possiblities. We hope that you will help in this matter, test the software and let us know what you think as well as the possibility of a bug report. As we develope we test, test and test again. As for pictures and anims, we want you to do that not us. Humble if you will, you are the reason Imagine is not the other way around.
#66207From: Troy BarlowOct 14, 1993 9:51 PM
I'm curious, what type of testing do you do? Do you set up test cases for the testers, or do they just do random testing, or both? Do you write software to test it in modules? The reason I ask, is because we have been taking a good look at how we do QA where I work. We started using software (SQA Manager) that helps us track PTR's, this seems to help track related bugs and other metrics. Also, we have the programmers meet with QA to create test cases. Cases that we feel would cause the software to hit it's limits, and might cause the software to break. We also automate tests as much as possible in engineering, have a peer module reviews. Most of the time we even trace modules with a debugger so we can cause things to fail (fopen(), malloc(), etc…). We have reduced the number of PTR's we get by about 50%!
#66305From: Mike HalvorsonOct 15, 1993 11:46 PM
Troy. I think that our testing is less formal that what you use. We have several users who beat the software to death and then we fix it. This process slows down delivery time but it seems to work in gerenal. What I think we need to imporve upon is telling people how the software works. Many things that cant be done are often sluffed off by users as BUGS when indeed the software of choice did not or does not do what the user wanted to do. Imagine is very mature, so testing is much more straight forward.
#66335From: Troy BarlowOct 16, 1993 3:22 PM
We only have about 11 people is our company. 3 artists, 3 programmers, 3 testers (2 are part time), 1 project manager, and the owner. We have about 2 jobs currently going, 1 finishing up in a month. We used to test the way you do, but we have found that we save a lot of time and money using some of these methods. I'd say that we saved most of the time by having peer code reviews, they take time, but have a few benefits! The first is that you can catch more bugs because having a second programmer review another's code, the second programmer may find problems that the first one overlooked. Second, if a programmer were to leave our company, we have other people that are familiar with his/her code. Also, when you spend more time in the debugger tracing code paths, you can easily simulate program failures. It's not possible for any tester that's not familiar with the code, to test 100% of the code. The main area is error handling (files that don't open, buffer's that don't allocate, user input, bounds checking, and other I/O). In a debugger, I can cause malloc(), fopen(), fread(), fwrite(), and others to fail. Then, I can trace my code to debug the error handling! Testers just can't do this, and I feel most bugs are related to these failures. If it takes me a few more hours to test a routine in a debugger, I can catch more bugs in that routine *now*, before QA, and while I'm still familiar with the code! It saves time later trying to track the beast down. Pick up these books and pass them around your company: "Code Complete", and "Writing Solid Code" by Microsoft Press Very good reading material! -Troy PS: We are required by our clients (Philips PIMA, IBM, Macmillan/McgrawHill, Childrens Television Workshop, and others) to meet some of these standards. But it has helped our company tremendously… We miss less deadlines. Our numbers in SQA manager show it!
#66341From: Mike HalvorsonOct 16, 1993 6:30 PM
Thanks, for your help, I am sure that we could as you suggest be served by adopting your process. We have over the years been able to catch most of the Bugs before they reach the user and consumer. If we suffer from some problem it would have to be associated to the simple fact that we dont have as much horse power as we need for the things that we think up. We are actively seeking more software designers who understand what we do and how we do it. I dont think that we miss deadlines due to testing I think we miss them due to the "BOY ISNT THIS COOL" factor. Our software and hardware never seems to be as good as we want it. Also, due to the type of product we make it seems that we have set our system on once a year to have a new release. This time line is too long for anyones good. So, for 1994 we are going to establish a new system by where the user pays a service contract and at least 4 times in that year we release a new version with new features. In this way we can react more to the users needs and find out if our COOL factor is going in the right direction. Not to sound negative but it does seem that most software is developed in a state of complex secrecy. We want to open this process up, especially with a program like Imagine., where its success is based entirely on the user meeting the needs that she or he has. While I agree with your process we need more talent and a quicker time from code to user. I think that needless bugs are not acceptable, but what is worse is the lack of features to meet the users needs Enough of my babble.
#66349From: Troy BarlowOct 16, 1993 9:14 PM
Ahh, "BOY ISN'T THIS COOL"… We call those "Change Requests", or "AA'S" (Author Authorization's) and they are scheduled! 🙂 As far as design goes, I like the Rapid Prototype method. It helps you see what you get, before you spend a whole lotta effort on Technical specs, Functional specs, and code, only to have the client change everything. Also, I feel that if you can design your program in a object oriented "modular" way, it makes it easy to add to existing code. It don't do that well if the main system isn't tested/debugged properly though. For instance 3D object creation can benefit if you create modules that allow magnetism, lathe operations, etc. In the future, you can release new operators that the user can "plug in". Sorta like your texture proceedures, and effects. This benefits the users, they have the base system, and can purchase modules during the year as needed. It benefits you because you can focus on what the user wants, design and write it, and not have to worry about testing the whole program again! Users want a *new* look? Make a new interface! Leave the rest. Users want to core apples? Make a Apple Core module! Leave the rest. Want to replace the 040 render engine with a Warp! engine? (Anti Screamer statement)… Just kiddin It also makes it easy to port to other systems. And, since you don't have to port every module right away, you get quicker releases. We created a program for Macmillan called "Sights & Sounds", it had to run on the PC and Macintosh. We wrote 75% of the code on the PC, then only had to convert the other 25%. It worked out that way because we designed so that most of the code was not tied to the interface, and specifics of either platform. In fact, if we had our network up back then, we could have shared the code archives that were under PVCS version control! BTW, even the audio data was shared between platforms… Only the graphics and animations had to change! But that's painless with all the great conversion software out there. If our code wasn't designed this way, we could not make money since we almost always do multi platform work. This is also why it's very important that we have a real good design and testing proceedure. -Troy Barlow PS: I enjoy the babble!
#66071From: Mike HalvorsonOct 12, 1993 8:54 PM
Once again you state, IF WE ARE GOING TO RELEASE IT, of course we are. It nice that you like Real 3D we have no plans of copying the product of other companies, We might have something that you will appreciate as much as real 3d. We dont upload much in the way of images and animations, we want you the user to do that, it seems with everyone else blowing their own horn we thought it might be prudent to show a bit of humility. Users make software great not just the developer. If you make Imagine sing then we have done a great job, if you dont then we have done a poor job.
#66089From: Vernon GranerOct 13, 1993 1:13 AM
How about uploading a SCREEN CAPTURE of the new INTERFACE to show that there really IS an Imagine 3.0. 🙂
#66302From: Mike HalvorsonOct 15, 1993 11:40 PM
Vernon, Surely you jest, Mike
#66154From: Anthony RamirezOct 13, 1993 11:54 PM
>We dont upload much in the way of images and animations, we want you the >user to do that, When Imagine was first released I remember a picture that was distributed, (the office table with the gun) which I think you rendered, and was a GREAT selling tool when showing others what Imagine was capable of doing. I am sure you are thinking that if you u/l something that people will think that this is `the best' that Imagine can do when you weren't even trying. But I think something that shows some of the new features would be nice especially since 3.0 has been delayed and people get impatient. Even a screen shoot would be nice.
#66303From: Mike HalvorsonOct 15, 1993 11:42 PM
Imagine has not been delayed, we just did not get done as soon as we would like to have. I think that it is still best to let you do the talking and we will do the making. THis is your software, show us what you can do. Soon it will be in the hands of those who ordered and you will be able to show each other what can be done.
#66403From: jeff HolinskiOct 17, 1993 4:09 PM
You're right, the end users will probably be able to come up with some really nice stuff. It stands to reason, there's a lot more of us than there are of you at Impulse. However, I personally have seen at least 5 Imagine sales lost due to a lack of sample renderings. It usually happens something like this: I'm in one of the local Amiga dealers and a customer walks in and tells the salesman he wants to get into 3D animation. He doesn't know what he wants so he asks the salesman what's available. If the salesman knows what he's talking about he'll tell the guy about Alladin 4D, Caligari 24, Real 3D, Imagine, and of course LightWave. He explains the major features of each package to the customer and if the guy seems interested in a couple he runs them to show the interface. They look at a couple of interesting features then they start to look at sample pictures. They look at the JPEGS that come with Alladin 4D (really nice pics), They look at the terminator render done with Caligari (wow!) They might look at the bowling pin picture from the Real 3D ad, and perhaps a short video clip from SeaQuest or Babylon 5. Then, since Imagine has no official sample pictures they go into the detail editor and load the cow. Don't ask me why but they always seem to load the cow. They do a quickrender with everything left at the default settings and in a few seconds they have a 320*200 HAM image of the cow. Yechh!!! Then the guy looks back at the Babylon 5 video, then he looks at the terminator render again, Then he looks back at the cow. The salesman is talking about Essence 1&2, Understanding Imagine 2.0, The Imagine companion, the Imagine Staging Language, and how there are thousands of Imagine objects available on BBS's. The guy's still looking at the cow. It's usually about that time he picks either Caligari, Real 3D, or the Toaster. Once in a while I'll jump in and show the guy what Imagine can do, but I'm not there all the time and it's not my job anyways. I've seen this happen at least 5 times and a few more where the person just leaves empty-handed to think about it some more. If you want the users to show off the power of Imagine why don't you have a contest. Get people to send in their best Imagine 3.0 renders (once it's released), pick the best 10 to distribute with the program, and refund the upgrade price to the people who did them. The cost to you is minimal compared to the extra sales it could generate.
#66409From: Stan Kalisher (Impulse)Oct 17, 1993 7:14 PM
Jeff, that's a great idea and a familiar story. I often have to step in and clear up misconceptions about Imagine while I'm at my local dealers. Impulse really has been a bit too humble about the strengths of their program over the years. I have a feeling you'll be seeing a change over the next few months, though. There's some really cool stuff just around the corner that will get many people very excited. –Rick Rodriguez
#66460From: Peter GreciOct 18, 1993 3:52 PM
Howdy Rick, you guys at VRS have a set of Nice Interiors right? I need a Living Room for "The Adventures of Joe Pumpt and Biff Bod", I'd like to see a sample rendering of yer Interior models if possible. Email to me is Fine. JPEG would probably be best to keep size down. Thanx.
#66518From: Stan Kalisher (Impulse)Oct 19, 1993 5:38 AM
The living room set probably won't be done til January, Peter. We're currently gearing up production on a new series of tutorial videos for Imagine 3.0. –Rick Rodriguez
#66581From: Peter GreciOct 19, 1993 5:12 PM
Hot Beans and Butter!!!! Can't wait to see the new Tape(s). No biggie on the Living Room not being Done till Janruary since after I posted the msg I found a nice Office on the Syndesis 3DROM done by Neoumen, for some reason it WASN'T available as a Imagine object but Interchange plus converted it fine for me and is what I used. The Bloody Scene with the Humanoid sitting in the Office Chair needed a Whopping 12 megs to render each frame!!!!
#66414From: Mike HalvorsonOct 17, 1993 9:05 PM
You spend too much time in the retail store. People in stores sell what they like and what they have. Of course we have missed some sales, however when the user gets home, can he indeed make that picture that he or she saw at the demo. We have never mislead anyone with the power of Imagine. If you like selling hype then people will buy what sparkles. However not all that glitters is gold. Imagine has the most power of any other software product in the 3D arena. I personally will put the power of Imagine against any other product period. We do not come from the world of Hype we work on the premise that we should do a good job, those who want the best will buy it. We have tried to have a contest, and the entrants were few and far between, people are too busy to be involved. Thanks for your suggestions but I think that we will continue to let you blow the horn while we make it easire and better to play. That is our job, not to make lousy software that gets sold due to some frilly hype. NOTHING makes me madder than when I have been suckered into a Hype, help those people out who have to make a tough decision of which to buy. Tell them the truth as you know it and move to the next thing.
#66438From: David HofmannOct 18, 1993 11:20 AM
the contest Jeff suggested is a great idea. It shouldn't be much work for Impulse and I'd love to make some stills or animations. BTW, here in a german magazine I have seen some adds for Imagine. It does show some example pictures! -David
#66450From: jeff brownOct 18, 1993 2:48 PM
David, et al. I sense that M. Halverson is skeptical about the benefits of an Imagine contest… and I think he's right! While Impulse should (and will, I'm sure) get some good sample pics, etc,; my guess is that there are a lot of good Imagineers that would not participate in a "contest", for some of the following reasons: 1) work that exists may not have clearance — you did a great logo for MegaCorp, but will they want to have it used to advertise someone else's product? 2) good work takes time! and if one earns a living doing animation, it's sometimes hard to justify doing something "on spec". 3) see #2– it's not easy to give it away! Some "unpaid" (rather than "amateur") animators do great work… and they might feel fine about getting $100. Some professionals do great work, and they need to make a good deal more than $100 on a job just to make the lease payments on the video gear! The gist of it is, "contests" can have pretty spotty results; I haven't seen the AmigaWorld tape, but was told it consisted of a couple very nice pieces with lots of, well, not so nice pieces…. my 2 cents, Jeff Brown, Fire Mist Media
#66461From: Peter GreciOct 18, 1993 3:52 PM
Alot of the Reason "I" feel the Amigaworld Contests suffer is the fact that they accept 3/4" Tapes ONLY, I've never entered simply because of that. Dr. Gandalfs work on the Last Amiga World tape was IMHO the best.
#66544From: Anthony RamirezOct 19, 1993 10:52 AM
>We have tried to have a contest, and the entrants were few and far >between, people are too busy to be involved. I will probably say that even though Imagine is a capable program it is difficult to achieve the desired result (2.0). You have said that 3.0 will be very user friendly and this will most likely make for more entries. It couldn't hurt…
#66586From: Mike HalvorsonOct 19, 1993 5:57 PM
Anthony, I would suggest that Imagine is not hard to use, 2.0 or 3.0 it just takes hard work. There is no such thing as an easy 3D product. I think that the over riding reason for people not to participate is not Imagine it is the work involved and the time it takes to do something that you are proud of no matter what the software. I think that many people buy into the premise that something or another is hard to use because a few people say so. Imagine is not hard it is complex and powerfull, you must work at the results they dont just fall out of the sky. I look forward to seeing your work in the future. Mike
#66610From: Anthony RamirezOct 20, 1993 1:12 AM
>Imagine is not hard it is complex and powerfull, you must work at the >results they dont just fall out of the sky. Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to give the impression that it should be SUPER easy. What I meant was that Imagine is not as intuitive as others, although it could be modified (Custom Buttons). >I look forward to seeing your work in the future. I am going to send you a entry we (the local gang and me) made into the SCI-FI contest. Total running time with stills and anims is almost 3 minutes. Is Impulse's address still the same? Impulse 8416 Xerxes Avenue N. Brooklyn Park, MN 55444 Who should I send this `in care of'? <<< Tony D. Tracer >>>
#66701From: Mike HalvorsonOct 21, 1993 4:20 PM
Tony, Address the same send it to Me Mike Halvorson THanx Mike
#66603From: jeff HolinskiOct 19, 1993 10:00 PM
Mike, While I agree that some programs are over-hyped I also think it's a fine line between humility and obscurity. You're aiming Imagine sales at people who want the best and will buy it. Well, how are they going to know it's the best if there are no sample pictures? They look on TV and see LightWave animations and assume it's the best. They look at the cover of Amiga World and see Caligari renders and assume it's the best. Where do they get the impression that Imagine's the best? Most people who want to get into 3D animation don't spend months cruising BBS's looking for pictures done with every Amiga render. They go into a store and ask the salesman to show them what's available. If you're worried about people feeling like they got took because they can't get the same quality as the sample pics, include a scene file that they can render themselves. They can learn from the lighting and object placement and become better Imagine users themselves. You have to understand that the average person is not going to go to much bother to find out what's hype and what's actually the best product. If they were IBM clones would not be the most popular type of computer and the Amiga would not be a niche computer.
#66646From: Mike HalvorsonOct 20, 1993 6:00 PM
It is difficult to stand out in a field of unfullfilled promises. I think people are smarter than you give them credit. People dont just part with the money they earn because they see a pretty picture. We will be posting images that will impress and hopefully will casue people to look in the direction of Imagine. Possibly by doing what others do will make us a bit different. We will be doing our best to make Imagine a recognized product, we have sold many copies of Imagine, without the need to over react to what is going on. Thanks for your suggestions, I am listening.
#66666From: jeff HolinskiOct 20, 1993 11:09 PM
One thing I've learned over the years is that people are ALWAYS dumber than I give them credit for. :^) You're right though, most people won't buy a 3D package based ONLY on a picture. A nice example of what a program CAN do makes a difference in the buying decision though. I'll be looking forward to seeing the images you post.
#66437From: David HofmannOct 18, 1993 11:20 AM
>> Yechh!!! Then the guy looks back at the Babylon 5 video, then he looks >> at the terminator render again, Then he looks back at the cow. >> The salesman is talking about Essence 1&2, Understanding Imagine 2.0, >> The Imagine companion, the Imagine Staging Language, and how there are >> thousands of Imagine objects available on BBS's. The guy's still looking >> at the cow. LOL, ROFL!! Lucky I didn't go to a dealer who showed me the cow <bg> -David
#66543From: Anthony RamirezOct 19, 1993 10:52 AM
>If you want the users to show off the power of Imagine why don't you have >a contest. Get people to send in their best Imagine 3.0 renders (once >it's released), pick the best 10 to distribute with the program, and >refund the upgrade price to the people who did them. I LIKE the way you think!!! I am sure with the features that 3.0 will have there will be LOTS of stuff being done.
#66605From: jeff HolinskiOct 19, 1993 11:32 PM
Thanks Tony, Of course unless Mike likes the way I think the contest isn't going to happen. I've got a Toaster on loan for a few weeks. At this point I really don't CARE what Imagine 3.0 has for features. I've been using Lightwave for 3 days and I'm saving for a toaster. ;^)
#66638From: Peter GreciOct 20, 1993 3:58 PM
You might want to give Alpha Video a Buzz, I seem to recall seeing an Ad from them somewhere that said they were selling used Toaster Cards for $800(2.0)
#66665From: jeff HolinskiOct 20, 1993 11:09 PM
Thanks for the advice. Unfortunatly now that Newtek has stopped selling software upgrades the Toaster 2.0 is dead technology. (in my opinion) The next release of LightWave is supposed to support Essence textures. (they MIGHT even be included) I have to have something I can upgrade so I'll be getting a Toaster 4000. Besides a 4000 is in my future somewhere so I'll NEED the latest hardware. By the way, what ever happened to that 5000 frame animation you were working on a while back?
#66697From: Peter GreciOct 21, 1993 4:11 PM
I'm still fooling around with that 5100 frame anim here and there, it finally has a Name too. "The Adventures of Joe Pumpt and Biff Bod" Recently I did an opening Title Animation using Imagemaster R/T's Wipe generator. I'm rendering another 300 frames as I type this of Joe Pumpt running/jogging past his house.
#66748From: David HofmannOct 22, 1993 1:57 PM
Peter, a 5100 animation not only takes a LOT of time, but also needs a LOT of disk space. How do you store your frames? DO you have a tape back up? -David
#66775From: jeff HolinskiOct 22, 1993 6:03 PM
I presume the name of the animation comes from the fact that it stars the Cycle Muscles dude. Or have you changed that?
#66647From: Mike HalvorsonOct 20, 1993 6:04 PM
Jeff, I hope you enjoy the toaster, indeed you have made your choice. Albeit it might have been made in the dark. Software is a tool, you are the ingredient that makes the software valuable not the other way around. For some reason people seem to forget this very important aspect of software and hardware. Take a computer and some software and set them in a room, nothing happens until you get involved. Use all the software tools that you need to use, if you find you are happy with only one, Great, others may find a different need and thus it makes for more than one vendor of a product type. Mike
#66667From: jeff HolinskiOct 20, 1993 11:09 PM
My choice wasn't made entirly in the dark. I've been using Imagine since it was first released and I've got a fair bit of experience on every version that's ever existed. In all that time I've done some pictures that were OK but nothing really impressive. It took me about 5 hours to start doing better renders than I'd ever managed before. At this point I've been using LightWave for 4 days, I haven't even opened the manual and I can do about 90 percent of what I could do with Imagine. You're right about software being a tool, but some people just can't learn to work some tools properly. LightWave is a tool that works for me. I will be looking at Imagine 3 when it's released. I know a few people in town who will be getting the upgrade and will be happy to show it to me. I'd MUCH rather spend $100 on the upgrade than having to buy an entire Toaster system, but I'd have to be INCREDIBLY impressed with the render quality to abandon my plans to get a Toaster.
#66831From: Mike HalvorsonOct 23, 1993 3:32 PM
Jeff, Good luck with the toaster, many use it and love it. The question I might ask is this. How much of the quality of the rendering is the software and how much is the toaster display? I trust that you had a 24 bit board before so that this is moot question. However if your rendering are now being shown on a higher quality display then with Imagine on the standard AMiga there might just be a difference that you would indeed notice.
#66916From: jeff HolinskiOct 24, 1993 9:22 PM
I'd have to say that about 100% of the render quality is due to the software. I used to use DCTV to do my animations with Imagine and I've been using DCTV and Rend 24 for the little test anims I've done with the Toaster. I gave up on using HAM a long time ago. I could probably get by with HAM8 though. :^) One thing that I've noticed that DOES make a big difference in the render quality is the default lighting options and the single sided polygons. The default lights in LW shows most objects pretty well and the fact that you can use single sided polygons means that when you're trying to light an interior scene you can use point lights for highlighting and use a distant light to do the overall lighting for the scene. Everyone that I've ever talked to about Imagine seems to have trouble with lighting. If you can make the lighting easier to use it'll vastly improve the quality of every Imagine users work.
#66695From: Rick ThornquistOct 21, 1993 3:31 PM
Mike, PMFJI – I read Jeff's thoughts on Imagine and have to agree. I bought Imagine 1.0 a few years ago and upgraded to 2.0 when it came out. I struggled to learn it with the help of The Imagine Companion and Understanding Imagine 2.0 – I need not tell you why I had to buy these books to learn the program. IMHO, the program is simply too difficult to use – and the lack of docs made things impossible. I bought a VT4000 about a month ago and have had the same experience with Jeff. I was create renderings almost right away without cracking the manual. The program, again IMHO, is extraordinarily straightforward. For me to spend almost $3000.00 (Canadian) on a VT4000 as opposed to $100 (American) for the Imagine upgrade tells you what my impression is of the usefulness of the Lightwave as compared to Imagine. For the reasons I've just stated, plus a few others, I've decided to go with Lightwave. I hope you take this in the spirit in which it is intended, a customer of yours outlining why he has gone with a comptetitor's product trying to tell you why. Rick – On Autopilot from Vancouver
#66749From: David HofmannOct 22, 1993 1:57 PM
Rick, I don't think this is fair. You learned all the basic things about making animations, rendering, placing lights, movement… on Imagine and now you are an experienced user. Now you bought the Toaster and you don't have to start from scratch thus you can start right away making good stuff. You haven't even seen 3.0, so how can you judge? -David
#66776From: Rick ThornquistOct 22, 1993 6:36 PM
David, Actually, I learned the basics things about making animations from Sculpt-Animate 4D Jr. – a great package for learning about 3D – not Imagine. At this moment I have both Imagine and Lightwave on my hard disk and with the experience I have – a few years with Imagine as opposed to a few weeks with Lightwave – I find Lightwave much easier and more useful. True, I have not seen Imagine 3.0. I'm waiting to hear everybody's comments on it. However, unless the program has undergone a major transformation making it easier to use, I doubt that I'll buy it. We'll see, though.
#66832From: Mike HalvorsonOct 23, 1993 3:38 PM
Rick, Newtek is not nor have they ever been our competitor. That is something that you the user decide to endorse. We do not make the kind of products that Newtek makes. With the exception of Lightwave. I am not sure that Imagine is all that hard to use. If you were not capable of using it, then I am sorry. There are thousands who have used the software and continue to do so. Many people appreciate the power in the flexability of Imagine, they dont want their work to look the same as the next guys. There power is there and if you want to learn the software you can expect great results. I am also somewhat amazed at the fact that you bought all of the books and are still not capable with Imagine. It seems that everyone who has purchases Mr. Worleys book or Mr. Dubermans book have been made aware of the power in Imagine and are using the software with a smile of their face. Never-the-less I wish you the best of luck and hope that your investment pays off in the short and long term. As a final note We have addressed the issue of a better set of docs, that indeed is one of the most important parts of the new Imagine.
#66842From: Rick ThornquistOct 23, 1993 5:50 PM
Mike, Thanks for your reply. I'm looking forward to seeing what's new in Imagine 3.0. Rick – On Autopilot from Vancouver
#66919From: jeff HolinskiOct 24, 1993 9:23 PM
I'm in much the same boat as Rick. I've been using Imagine for years and am very familiar with it. I've also bought all the books and tapes available and I've done some pretty good renders with Imagine. The problem is that if I spend 2 hours with Imagine I can get a pretty nice render. If I spend 2 hours with LW I can get an incredible render. I think this is due mostly to LightWave having default settings that look pretty good. You can get an 'OK' render in a few minutes and spend the rest of your time playing with little details that make the big difference in the finished render. With Imagine you have to spend much more time up front adjusting lighting, specularity, adding global reflect maps for metal, ect. It's not that we're not 'capable' of using Imagine, it's just that we're more capable of using LW. By the way, I don't want to sound like I hate your product or that Imagine is a bad program. I've used it for years and learned more about 3D from Imagine than any other program I've ever used. It's a fine program and most of the knowledge I've been using to create nice renders in LW comes from what I learned in Imagine. However, if enough people tell you what they find difficult about Imagine, the program will evolve into something easier to use and far more powerful. :^)
#66767From: Anthony RamirezOct 22, 1993 4:26 PM
>Software is a tool, you are the ingredient that makes the software >valuable not the other way around. Let me jump in and say that I agree with you. I have seen people with GREAT software make trashy anims. Which leads me to ask about the Particle System for 3.0. Is this to make realistic movements like gravity and wind?
#66835From: Mike HalvorsonOct 23, 1993 3:47 PM
Tony, Both Gravity and Wind, Bounce, Delay, Taper, and other factors are part of the IM 3.0 release. And bunches more. Mike
#66889From: David HofmannOct 24, 1993 2:18 PM
Mike, Maybe I bore you, but IMHO movement is what makes animation alive. In the past we spent most of the time reproducing real live. As you might know I'm a freelance cameraman, so I'm used to creat my pictures with real lights, backgrounds, rain or whatever. I think in the future animation programs will have more and more features that are just like the things you have in real life. In the past a good computer animation artist was one who could recreate reality, but in the future he/she won't have to waste time doing these things, he/she can concentrate on the artistic part. >> Both Gravity and Wind, Bounce, Delay, Taper, and other factors are >> part of the IM 3.0 release. And bunches more. But as I see you already know 🙂 -David
#66766From: Anthony RamirezOct 22, 1993 4:25 PM
>I've got a Toaster on loan for a few weeks. At this point I really don't >CARE what Imagine 3.0 has for features. I've been using Lightwave for 3 >days and I'm saving for a toaster. Well I have a Toaster and I DO care what Imagine 3.0 has for features. While I DO like LightWave I am not going to kiss-off Imagine. Hopefully it will have features that will set it apart from LW. <<< Tony D. Tracer >>>
#66781From: jeff HolinskiOct 22, 1993 7:30 PM
Tony, While the upgrade fee for Imagine is fairly cheap, I doubt I'll get it unless there's tools in the modeler that I just CAN'T do without or the render quality has improved A LOT. When I bought Real 3D I was amazed that I could get very high quality renders just by loading an object and rendering. With LightWave I get the same high image quality with a much easier to use interface. If Imagine 3 can generate the same quality of renders without the endless cycle of quickrenders and lighting adjustments, I'll consider going with that rather than a Toaster. However,I can't see myself using both programs because if Imagine 3 is good enough to buy, it's good enough to be my primary rendering program. If it's not good enough for me to use it by itself it won't be good enough for me to buy. The upcoming release of the Dynamic Motion Module for Lightwave and and the fact that it will soon support external textures (like Essence) will also be a major factor in my decision on which package to go with. I guess I won't know what I want for a few weeks when Imagine 3 is released.
#66834From: Mike HalvorsonOct 23, 1993 3:45 PM
Tony, I think you have the spirit that we have made the software in. Add Imagine to your book or bag of tricks, the price is right and I think you will find that Imagine has gone in different direction than LW. However if you can afford it and need them both, go for it. Mike
#66202From: jeff HolinskiOct 14, 1993 7:27 PM
Sorry if I sound a little skeptical, but you DID miss your April shipping date. ;^) As for not copying other companies products, that's a nice goal. Originality is nice to have in a program. However, I wasn't suggesting you try to disassemble the program and move the material editor into Imagine a byte at a time. I was just suggesting you have a look at the way it works and learn from it. Other companies have good ideas too and there's nothing wrong with learning from them and working some of those ideas into your own products. I'd be careful about too much humility and not blowing your own horn. Commodore tried that with the Amiga and it didn't work as well as they hoped. :^)
#66304From: Mike HalvorsonOct 15, 1993 11:43 PM
Thanks for all of your suggestions.