BBS Software
23 messages in this thread
Well after a 4 year abscence, I find myself getting ready to go back to
the sysop game. I am painfully farmiliar with BBS-PC!, I was one of the
origonal beta testers, and while there is no update to that software planed
in the near future, I still like the message threads capabilities of it
better than most other BBS's I have seen.
I am very interested in hearing from anyone who has any
comments/suggestions/experiences/opinions on any of the BBS software
packages available for the Amiga. I have seen a feature list of the
upcomming DIALOG software, and it looks good. I have also heard of 4D-BBS
and the C-NET BBS. I also have a demo of the Sterling Service software but
its hard to tell if it is very good from the demo.
To start I am looking at running the BBS on a Amiga 2500/30 with 5 Megs
of RAM and 100 MEGS of HD, with 1 9600 v.32 modem. Latter I would like to
add more HD space plus multi-serial capability and extra modems. Network
mail would be a plus as would UseNet and UUCP ability but I don't know
anything about the logistics of getting a feed, etc…
Any input is greatly appreciated.
-Jason-
Whichever BBS software you choose, do NOT choose C-NET, as it has a heavy
reputation with pirating operations, and has features of stolen code from
other BBS programs.
I use Skyline software myself, which is the only one that I know of that
makes use of the Amiga's capabilities.
**** Vance ****
Vance,
Skyline is a good program, but I just want to qualify your statement a
bit. Skyline is not the only one that makes use of the Amiga's
capabilities. Paragon makes good use of, in fact depends on, the Amiga's
multitasking capabilities. The Skypix stuff and the point and click
interfaces are pretty nifty, but only if you access a Skyline BBS with
another Amiga using Skyterm or the new JRcomm. The AREXX port is a nice
feature though. Skyline was my other choice for board software, but I
decided to go with Paragon because I liked it's flexibility and features
better. Not a slam against Skyline, just a matter of personal taste.
Glenn
No problem. I was touting Skyline's "Amiga-unique" features, ie. graphics,
sound, animation, etc. All BBS software that I have seen before support
multitasking anyhow.
TTYL
**** Vance ****
Excuse me, but your comment about C-Net Amiga is a bit out of line, and
is at LEAST inaccurate. I write the C-Net software for the C-64 computer
for Perspective Software (yes, people are STILL buying software
for the old 64…) and I did not participate in the development of the
Amiga version, however I was watching over Ken Pletzer's shoulder during
part of the creation of the C language source code and I can speak with
some authority about it.
First, and perhaps most importantly, the C-Net Amiga software is 100%
original and was not "stolen" in any way, shape, or form from any other
system or software. Some of the multi-user commands are patterned after
UNIX, and some of the general display formats may appear somewhat familiar
to users of other established systems, and this is done on purpose to give
people a comfortable environment rather than having to learn a whole new
world when they log on. However, if you check back along the history of
C-net software development since the early 1980's, you will find that in
many cases WE created the patterns that many of the larger systems follow
now. This is especially true in the case of command structures.
Anyway, the real point here is that the C-Net Amiga system is written in
100% C-Language and not one byte of the source code came from anywhere but
Ken Pletzer's prolific brain and flying fingers.
As far as your vague allusion to a "reputation for Piracy" I would have
to ask you to be more specific. No BBS software designer or creator can
assume responsibility for irresponsible use by the buyer. This is true in
the same way that General Motors can not be held responsible for people
using their vehicles to violate speed laws. We NEVER encourage people to
violate copyright laws or provide any kind of assistance to software
pirates.
Call the C-Net Amiga demo BBS to see for your self. Ken runs 4 outside
lines into his A2000 (with GVP 030 card) and you can see for yourself that
he has something truly original and exciting going.
1200-2400 baud (313)981-1524 9600 baud ONLY (313)981-6150
Jim Selleck: Programmer for Perspective Software
My comments about Amiga C-NET are factual, and not out-of-line at all.
It's a well-known fact that C-NET uses Michael Cox's Skyline ARexx commands
and Skypix graphics protocol. It has gone under name changes since
implementation.
Michael asked Pletzer to kindly remove the features that Ken had lifted
from Skyline software, and was ignored at best.
As far as piracy use goes, I never said it was the author's responsibility
for SysOps who act in that manner. Only that C-NET has (C64) and is (Amiga)
being widely used for piracy.
Skypix was renamed Skypics originally in C-NET upgrades. Also, you stated
that you were looking over Ken Pletzer's shoulder during PART of the C
language source code. So yes, you can speak with some authority, up to the
half-way point of C-NET's Amiga development, but not beyond.
Anyone can log onto an Amiga C-NET system and see the Skypix protocol for
themselves, anyhow. So telling me that I'm innacurate, is just spitting in
the wind, my friend.
I have no doubt that there are many original ideas in C-NET, but it IS
factually only 90-95% original. Skypix was out long before Ken "borrowed"
it. As were the Skyline ARexx commands that Ken thought would make a "neat"
addition to his software.
Vance Schowalter: Owner of OBERON MICROSYSTEMS INC. CANADA
(On-line Retail Software and Hardware Store)
300-2400 baud (403)466-2799 24 hrs.
You know what? You're out of your mind.
Protocols, ARexx command names and/or sequences, keystroke sequences,
window appearances, baud rates, features, each and every one are totally
fair game for developers to add in, enhance, de-enhance or ignore,
elaborate upon, and et-bloody-cetera.
What do you think these look-and-feel suits are over? DOn't you *know* that
if the attitude that promotes that closed-minded twerpism is allowed to
flourish, most of the software that is out there today will dissapear off
the market, like instantly?
When "SkyPix" was invented, did that fellow run over to the people who do
the VidTex stuff and ask them if he could use their idea? Did he run off to
the networks and ask them if he could use the concept of a message base?
Did he ask CIS if it was ok to keep libraries of files? Should Black Belt,
as the originator of various techniques as per utilizing ARexx, including
the *very first Telecomm program to support ARexx* climb all over this
person because they are using ARexx in conjunction with telecomm? Sheesh!
If they guy stole your _code_, well, that's one thing. Your ideas, unless
protected by (a) software and/or hardware patents, or (b) some other solid
legal technique, are totally fair game.
If I started whining about every idea I've had that another developer
looked at, and implemented because it was good, or those that were
co-invented (and let me point out that I have NO way of telling which, and
neither do YOU) anyway, I'd spend all my time whining.
Instead of complaining about the presence of features in another product,
you'd be FAR better off pointing at it and saying "See? It's so good they
emulate it, and they SUPPORT OUR PROTOCOL".
Sometimes I just get so annoyed. :^)
BBS->Williams.Ben[AA7AS]
Well said, Ben!!
Betty
Gee! Thanks. <grin>
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Heh. Well, I hardly intended to start this spirited debate, and I hope
to become friends with everyone here as I move into the Amiga world from my
former home in 8-bit land. I would like to say though, that I think that
90%+ originality as far as ideas go is not too bloody bad for a large scale
BBS software system.
I fully agree that CODE should never be borrowed or stolen, and I have no
respect for anyone who has taken MY code in the past and used it as the
basis to develop some other idea. If someone wants to emulate the command
structure of one of my systems IN THEIR OWN ORIGINAL CODE, I can hardly
stop them, and indeed it could be considered a form of flattery.
Good man.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
"Look and Feel" is one thing, and I have no problem with that at all, but
the guy stole the code from Skyline!
Now, if you uphold that I'm wrong for believing that C-NET's ripping the
CODED guts out of Skyline to shove in its own belly is wrong, then you have
a serious problem mister! And you shouldn't mind if I take all of your
hard-worked code from your programs and claim them as features of my
software, without writing the code myself. Skypix(!!!) IS and always has
been, a copyrighted CODE.
C-NET did NOT make an emulator of the Skypix, they did not seek permission
to use the CODE from the author, they just ripped into the code and stole
it! Got IT?!! The same applies to the Skyline ARexx commands that Michael
created. The Amiga C-NET author didn't make an emulation of the commands,
he stole the CODE from that also!
The author doesn't have a problem of someone emulating Skypix, but he has
the right to denounce CODE theft. And THAT is what this whole bag of beans
was about!
So, take your high and mighty attitude and shelve it for awhile, because
you made the mistake of dumping on the wrong topic.
You "may" have noticed that I have CAPS on the word CODE, to draw your
attention to the fact that I am talking about CODE, NOT ideas.
Geez, what a bear!
**** Vance ****
This message is completely at odds with the previous ones you left. I can
only assume you're changing your tune in defense.
And, as a professional programmer, I hasten to point out to you that in
most cases (anyone who wants to should either back me up or debunk me,
here) it's a LOT easier to write to a performance standard than it is to
steal CODE, unless, and this is a big one, unless you steal the entire
product.
I don't think you understand the issues of (a) what writing complex s/w is
about, (b) what software theft entails, (c) what the implications of
calling someone a plagarist are in the software community.
If, for any reason, I am wrong, and the code is stolen, and you can PROVE
same by showing sections of binary in these two programs that agree
(besides text tables of commands, that would be stupid and obvious) then I
bow to your insightful knowledge of the demons in our midst.
Until and unless you can do that, you're just another windbag, as far as
I'm concerned.
As for "dumping on the wrong topic", I rather doubt it. I think I can hold
my own here. I'm familiar with the salient issues, unlike you, I beleive.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Vance,
Could you enlighten us, perhaps to enforce your point, as to how
someone got ahold of the source code so they could place it in their
program?
I'm not disputing what you say (that the code was stolen), I have
no knowledge of the facts of the issue. I'm only asking you to back up
your accusation with a fact or two.
Don
Just to shed a little light on this subject, since Mr. Schowalter has
point blank accused Ken Pletzer of stealing the SKY "code" for the C-Net
Amiga BBS system, I logged off here and called Ken on the phone and put the
question to him about 5 minutes ago.
Ken informs me (and I have known Ken a long time) that the ONLY
information he had at his disposal was a short text file describing the
Skyline commands and what each one was supposed to do. Using that
information, he created HIS OWN ORIGINAL CODE to implement a version of
that subsystem for the C-Net Amiga BBS.
It was an extremely simple modification, taking less than 2 pages of C
source code to implement.
I asked Ken further if the author had contacted him to ask that he not do
this, and Ken said that yes, Michael Cox HAD contacted him, and Ken had
then attempted to call him back to do him the courtesy of asking
permission, although the author himself has described the command structure
Ken emulated as "Public Domain". Apparently Ken was not able to get
through.
Anyway, I am NOT in any way in favor of anyone stealing or taking credit
the programming work of another. Thats not what this is about, I think.
After talking to Ken, I believe him. Ken would NOT be quick to steal
someone elses code since the memory of this happening TO HIM is still all
too fresh and painful (in the case of our C-64 software about 2 years ago.)
C-Net Amiga is not the only BBS out there these days, but I believe it is
one of the better ones, and it is CERTAINLY a genuinely original article.
Jim,
Ok…now let's see what Vance has to say. He made what I consider
a serious accusation. I'm interested in his side of the story to see what
information he's using as a basis for that accusation.
Don
Vance:
If in fact code was stolen, not emulated, and it can be proven, then CIS
is NOT the place to dispute it, a court of law IS! If however you suspect
that the code was stolen, but don't have proof, then YOU should keep quiet
as if in fact the code was just emulated, and not stolen, and they can
prove that, you might have a law suit on your hands!
So in other words – PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
>"close-minded twerpism"
Great! I love it! Agree totally. I'm pretty sick of all this nonsense too.
You hit the nail right on the head. Good hammer too! 🙂
Malcolm
Jim,
While many of your points about C-NET are valid and I don't have any
knowlage that their is any code from C-NET which is not Kens, I think that
the reputation as a pirate system was fairly well earned. I knew Ken
before he ever started writing C-NET for the C-64 and the first C-NET ever
run was his, which also happened to have been a very popular pirate board,
so I don't have a huge amount to sympathy for the reputation. As I recall,
after C-NET he wrote at least one C-64 game, and he took a lot of ribbing
for the fact that the game wasn't on his pirate board…
-Jason-
Yeesh! Talk about ANCIENT HISTORY… Yes, its true that Ken had
something of a reputation as a hacker who could break software protection
and stuff like that. This was back when he was about FIFTEEN years old,
which is a LONG time ago when he was first learning about programming.
All of us have grown UP since then, and Ken has left that part of his
life FAR behind.
The issue under discussion here is not what we may or may not have done
as CHILDREN, but Vance has falsely accused Ken of STEALING someone elses
programming code to include in his latest version of C-Net Amiga.
Vance,
Dialog BBS uses the Amiga's capabilities rather nicely. In fact, I am
running my BBS right now as I send this message to you (via Whap) all from
the same computer. No, it does not have Skypics, but that's ok with me, I
really don't miss it that much.
Regards,
Allen
Jason,
I'm in the process of setting up a BBS using Paragon. So far I like it a
lot. It looks good, and is really flexible, in that it can be set up as
anyhting from a simple single line local BBS, to a multiline BBS with
realtime conference (CB) and network capabilities. The Fidonet mailer
routines are integral to Paragon by the way, not eexternal modules as some
software handles it. In multiuser mode, it will handle up to nine lines I
believe, and each can be configured seperately for different baud rates,
etc. I've heard that Paragon is capable of handling Usenet, but I don't
know anything about that part of it. The initial set up can be a bit
daunting, and the docs could use some improvement (couldn't they
all??..<g>), but all in all, once it's up and running, I think it's real
user and sysop friendly. If you want to see Paragon in action, the support
BBS is Gary's BBS, at (315)598-8106 for 9600 baud only (I think HST but it
might be a dual standard), or (315)598-2075 for 2400 baud. Paragon is a
commercial program, from Inner Circle Software. I mail ordered it from
Briwall for about $107. The current version that's shipping is 2.07. If you
need to anything more about Paragon that I can help you with, either leave
me Email or post a message here. By the way, I'm running the board on a 4
meg A2000HD with a 40 meg HD, and a 2400 baud Zoom modem. More HD space and
a 9600 baud modem will come later, after I convince my wife that I *need*
it….<g>.
Glenn
Thanks for the advice I have recieved so far on Amiga Software. I have
seen Paragon and it is fairly nice. The one I have liked the most so far
is called Dialog Pro, most of you have probably not heard of it yet, as it
is still being sold in its beta form v.95. The software looks very good
and has a lot of really nice features:
EchoMail (fido), CrashMail, Usenet, UUCP all built in and standard
Multi-line, multi-user support w/ multi person games and conferences
Multiple editors, full screen w/ ansi, paragraph, and line oriented
Online lex check and spelling check
Remote dos use, doors, can run anyprogram that uses standard IO
Has most protocals and includes external librarys, batch downloads
Each user has personal directory which stores list of batch dl's,
signature, log-on macros, etc…
Can compress all new messages (with any archiver) and dl them and read
them and make replys with the included off-line reader, similar in
function to Whap!
Person to Person file transfers, much more
So far it looks really good. The other BBS I am trying to find more about
is Steve Tibbits BBX. I have heard good things about it, but haven't seen
one yet. I hear that it too is only available in beta and that he will not
sell to end users and will not have a released version to at least January.
-Jason-