#Broadcast quality?
23 messages in this thread
Hi everyone-
Can anyone provide an opinion on the minimum level of equipment
necessary to do "broadcast quality" video recording and editing? I'm
looking at putting together a Toaster-based editing system and would
like my purchased equipment to be broadcast quality (assuming
anything *I* produce is that good <g>). If I can't afford "broadcast
quality" VCR's, etc. right now, I'll just stick with what I've got
(standard VHS) and live with it until I can afford better. Right now
I'm looking at S-VHS as a possibility but don't want to shell out the
$$$ just to wind up with a very expensive "home video" setup. Any
suggestions?
Thanks in advance,
Tom
Tom,
The term "Broadcast Quality" as applied to video gear is somewhat subjective.
In some quarters "Betacam" is the minimum standard, other people may contend
that industrial SVHS or 3/4 (or 3/4SP0 would suffice for most applications such
as cable broadcasting. It all depends on what your end product will be. If you
try to give me some kind of idea as to what your target market would be I might
be able to give you more specific advice.
Frank
Spot Ad Productions
San Jose, CA.
Frank –
I'd like output that would at least be acceptable to industrial customers or a
cable network. Based on all the choices I'm hearing I guess I should mention
that *budget* is probably going to be the deciding factor here – I doubt very
much that I'll be able to spend more than $10K on the whole system, total,
which I understand is less than some *individual* pieces of Betacam equipment
cost.
Maybe my question should have been: "Can I put together a broadcast quality
system for under $10,000, or should I save my money at this time and just go
with cheaper "consumer quality" stuff?"
What I'm trying to avoid is spending every dime I can scrape together and still
not being able to produce commercial-grade output. If that's going to happen
I'd rather invest the bare minimum in my own stuff and do my commercial editing
at some other facility.
Thanks,
Tom
FYI, there's a detailed and very positive write-up of the Toaster 4000 in
the latest Video Systems trade journal. It's by a fellow who uses it at a
local TV station. Industrial quality video? Even better.
— Ron Legro from Milwaukee via AUTOPILOT
(The only way to fly)
Tom,
Thanks for making your situation clear. So I guess BetaCam is kind of out of
the question in your particular situation, at least for the time being.
I guess my next question would be whether or not you already own your Toaster
system, and if you need to go with A/B roll or just get by with "Cuts" type
editing.
From what I can gather from your previous messages I would probably recommend
that you begin looking into the used 3/4Umatic marketplace. There are plenty of
decent deals to be had on this gear and the local cable company will
undoubtedly have the ability to play back Umatic tapes. If you can get your
hands on a couple of back issues of Video Yoaster User you will find some more
specific recommendations.
The June/July 93 issue has an article on page 56 on how to build a desktop
video system and it has a description of the "Basic $10,000 System" that should
be helpful for you.
In the August/September 93 issue, there is an article on page 86 called "Buying
Used & B-Stock Equipment" that gives some specifics on where and how to buy the
broadcast gear you might be interested in.
A good source for these back issues might be you local Video Toaster or Amiga
Users group, if one exists in your area. You can also order back issues from
VTU direct by calling (408) 252-0508.
Frank
Tom,
Contact ProVid Supply Corp.
3715 Ventura Drive
Suite 500
Arlington Heights, IL 60004
(708) 670-PROS
Ask for their latest Product Guide. This company excells in matching
sellers of used broadcast equipment with buyers on a budget. You'll find
everything from VHS to 1-inch decks. 3/4" Umatics a-plenty. They also have
offices in Missouri and Florida.
Also, you may be interested to know that Sony has just come out with a new
line of Betacam SP decks, the UVW line. My dealer here in Chicago is
selling the Edit-Recorder (UVW-1800) for $7,404. The player probably runs
around $6,500. Incredible deal on new Beta SP decks! I'm diving in head
first on these.
Steve.
Steve,
I just heard about the UVW line. Do you know yet if the UVW-1800 can
single frame record? Does the price you stated include RS-422 and
internal TC? TCB?
Thanks for any info.
… Nate,
Emerald Video
The UVW-1800 includes an RS-422 interface, full TBC (controllable with
an optional remote) and read/write TC generator (LTC, I think). It
has 2-channel stereo sound, great specs, etc. I'm assuming that with
a single-frame controller (hardware card and software) that can
access RS-422 and also talk with the SONY RS-422 protocol, you can
single frame out to the UVW. I'm looking into just this type of
set-up. Will know more in the coming weeks. Contact a dealer near
you, or call Sony. There is a representative near me. His number is:
William Hengels
Senior Account Manager
Sony Electronics, Inc.
1200 N. Arlington Hts. Rd.
Itasca, IL 60143
(708) 773-6006
(708) 773-7697 – fax
Bill Hengels can give you as much info as you need. He's not a dealer. He
is a sales rep for SONY. But, if you ask, he'll send you some great
literature that will make your mouth water.
Stephen Bailey
Sawyer & Bailey Film and Video CIS # 72773,2451
Steve,
Thanks for the reply. Sounds like a good deal. Will fax Bill this AM.
… Nate,
Emerald Video
Nate, the next issue of Desktop Video World will have VTR's in the Spotlight,
including the new UVW line, Panasonics 7750, S-VHS decks from JVC and the EVO
9850 Hi8 from Sony. Also in the reviews section you will find the Sanyo S-VHS
animation VTR. Lou Wallace Desktop Video World
Lou.
Thanks. Looking foreward to it.
… Nate,
Emerald Video
Hello Tom,
The term "Broadcast Quality" is subject to a lot of opinion. Some
people will say that S-VHS is broadcast quality, while others would say
that Betacam isn't good enough. It all comes down to your requirements.
More important than deciding something is broadcast quality, you should
look at the expected type of work you plan to do. You may want a format
that holds up well after many generations (layers of video). You also want
machines with durability, time-code (frame accuracy), insert capability,
split edit capability, and audio or video only editing capability.
So, with all that in mind… still can't decide,eh? Well, S-VHS is
a decent start. Good for a Toaster system, not so good for adding
layer upon layer, and audio editing can be confusing (Hi-Fi tracks).
Hi-8 is a decent aquistion format, and nice small cameras, too.
People complain that too many playbacks of Hi-8 causes tape stretch
and dropouts. 3/4 is still robust and is a format most stations
accept for adding to their cart machines. It holds up well and can
take maybe three generations without horrible losses. Betacam & MII
are nearly similar with Betacam being more popular (but typically
more expensive.) These formats are used all the way from acquistion
to master. Many stations use Beta cart systems. Also good for four
and five generations as long as you stay in component format (out of
the Toaster's league.) One inch is used primarly in post production
and becomes your edited master. It holds up for five to six
generations and is a composite system. Now your into Digital… D-1,
D-2, and D-3 (along with the new emerging digital formats) are
capable of 20 or more layers with little degredation, as long as you
stay digital in your processing. We have a D-3 machine in a composite
bay- this only allows for about 9 generations before it gets ugly.
So my suggestion? If you can afford it, go Betacam. MII isn't
popular enough (You'd probably have to get you master bumped to
another format for broadcast – another generation loss.) 3/4 would be
next, although S-VHS may have a better image (it may not), you'll get
equipment that is durable and popular. Also, with linear audio
tracks, easier audio editing. Otherwise get S-VHS, but be sure to
get those that use timecode.
Wow! I'm sure glad this isn't *complicated* or anything… <g> I
just replied to Frank, who was also nice enough to add his $0.02, and
his feelings seem about the same as yours, that Betacam is the lowest
surefire broadcast quality format. Unfortunately, one call to a
mailorder house closed that door – $14,500 for an an editing
recorder/player is just a wee bit out of my price range.
Tom,
I assume the $14,500 is for a PVW-2800? That's a great price! It
just went up. There is a new Betacam series called the UVW series.
The UVW-1800 might fit your bill, I believe its under $10,000
(considerably). It doesn't quite have the bandwith of the PVW or BVW,
but in 99% of the time this will not be a problem.
Also, the cheapest Betacam you can get is a portable BVW-35. It has a
serial controller port and is a fully functional recorder/player, except
don't try to do single frame animations with it. You can find them as low
as $6,500 to $8,000.
-Steve
Steve –
>>You can find them as low as $6,500 to $8,000.<<
And no doubt they're a bargain, unfortunately that's approximately what I'm
hoping to shell out for my whole system. Based on what I've learned (and am
still learning… <sigh>), my only realistic option, budget-wise, is super VHS.
I'd say straight VHS, or 8mm, but even *I* have standards as far as image
quality goes.<g>
Still, thanks for the info. If I should win the lottery in the next week or
so, I'll definitely give the Betacam stuff a shot.
Tom
Tom,
May I make a suggestion? There are an awful lot of post-production
facilities out in the world, many of them barely profit because of the
rapid advances in technology and, therefore, the depreciation of the
equipment and the need to procure the latest/greatest stuff. Many edit
bays have to be running nearly 24 hours a day to make money. Two major
problems are getting clients and getting editors. If you can edit, you
have a couple advantages: 1. Edit bays need you! 2. Free time in the bay
may be just that; free time for you to practice (and edit those projects
for your own clients). You get to use high-end equipment and you'll find
out that people who spend days just to get a special effect through their
DTV setup, you can do in minutes! Just a thought 🙂
-Steve
Tom,
Even though Steve pretty well covered your options (with great descriptions!) I
feel compelled to add my $.02…
"Broadcast Quality" is a term that "America's Funniest Home Videos" (not to
mention Rodney King) pretty well destroyed. It is not even subjective anymore
— it's meaningless, unless you define it as anything that's been broadcast on
any TV outlet.
I prefer the following:
CONSUMER QUALITY…ie, VHS, S-VHS, 8mm, Hi-8mm
INDUSTRIAL QUALITY…ie, 3/4, 3/4SP
COMMERCIAL QUALITY…ie, BetaSP, MII, 1", D2, etc.
Of course, there's overlap in these designations as well. The point is, it is
_possible_ to use most formats to achieve some level of "broadcast quality." I
think your expressed concern about spending $10k on a system that doesn't
deliver the quality your prospective clients expect is extremely valid.
As one who has been in the "commercial" production and post-production business
for quite a while, I know how fickle clients can be!
Good Luck!
–Don.
ADPro + Abekas Driver + Exabyte Tape Drive = Broadcast Quality
As demonstrated every Sunday night during seaQuest. And on Babylon 5,
Quantum Leap, etc.
Whoever at ASDG,
>>>ADPro + Abekas Driver + Exabyte Tape Drive = Broadcast Quality<<<
>>>As demonstrated every Sunday night during seaQuest. And on Babylon
5, Quantum Leap, etc.<<<
Sounds wonderful. Could you expound a little? I assume that one
uses ADPro to convert the framestores or RGB to an Abekas format, and
the Driver puts the frames onto the Exabyte tape. I take it that the
tape is then taken (or sent) to a house that has an Abekas. From
there it gets put on the format of your choice.
Is that the Digital Disk recorder, or can other Abekas units use the
frames? Is the tape drive typically the 2.3 Gig 8-mm tapes, or are
the 4mm ones more common? Both? Are they the tapes sold for about
$10 that fit an Exapyte drive for backup purposes? How common are
the digital disk units? Can I use, say, Pro Control to automate the
process if the framestores are on HDisk?
What about scaling of the frames? Is that info included with the
driver?
I believe this may be a god solution for me and others more remotely
located, but we need some detail. I would appreciate any additional
info.
Your assumptions are correct – Framestores are read directly by ADPro and
converted to an enhanced CCIR 601 digital video signal and recorded on 8mm
Exabyte tapes. These tapes (and the drives) are compatible with the Abekas
family of digital disk recorders. You send the tape to any of many service
centers to be converted into any other media.
The tremendous upside is that you get the exact same quality as the finest of
broadcast methods because you're using the exact same method. Your also taking
a tremendous up front savings since you don't have to buy a lot of fancy video
equipment.
Of course, the up front savings (probably in the range of $10K) is to be
balanced against a long term expense of needing an outside service center to
translate your tapes.
The 8mm tapes are of the 5 gig variety…another benefit of this method is that
when you are not using the Exabyte drive for digital video, you get to use it
as a high speed 5 gig backup device.
Thanks for the info. Where would be a good place to look for a service
center in my area?
… Nate,
Emerald Video
If you call us, we can fax you a list of service centers. What part of the
country are you from?
Near Toledo, right between Detroit, Cleveland and Columbus.
Will give a call.
… Nate,
Emerald Video