#3D Modeling Software
13 messages in this thread
I am looking for a 3D Modeling Program with advanced animation capabilities in
the IBM platform to use primarily for modeling and animations for game
programing, both of which I'm trying to learn. I'm currently looking into
Playmation/Animation Master (Hash), Imagine 3.0 (Impulse). and trueSpace
(Caligari).
Playmation's strengths seems to be in character modeling and animation, but I
was wondering what the drawbacks were to pure spline based modeling. Also, I
heard it was difficult to get a feel for coloring and texture mapping without a
full rendor. Most of the output looks a little plastic to me, but this could
just be the nature of the examples I saw. I was wondering about how detailed a
model could be (i.e. photorealistic) and how this compares to polygon based
programs in terms of file size and render time.
Imagine appears very full featured, but I question the awful user interface
(especially since it's DOS based). I had a little trouble working with it in
the "3D Moldling Lab", as some of the attributes did not work as described. and
the whole axes thing was a little confusing (and I'm NOT a computer novice by
any means).
TrueSpace has the best interface (although it's slooowww), but the animation
portion appears weak and the rendering seems a little grainy to me. However, I
was using a demo version so I'm not sure if there is any difference in the full
version.
Any thoughts would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!
Regards,
Tony
Tony,
I happen to have all three programs… I agree with you on Imagine's and
TrueSpace interfaces and overall strengths of both of them…
How Animation:Master fits into the picture? As a different kind of animal in my
opinion — things that are hard to impossible in the two are a snap here, and
vice versa…
As for the "plastic feel" of the Playmaton's renderings, it definitely has to
do with the samples you have seen — to put it simply it is ABSOLUTELY TOPS!
The idea that A:M is a "character" program is also a stereotype. Using splines
you can precisely (even using numbers <g>) position your control points for any
shape you can think of — without the polygonal mesh to obscure the view… All
files are in ASCI formats that are ingeniously simple to understand and you can
save tons of time using notepad and editing few lines here and there — try
that in Imagine or TruSpace <BG>
On the down side — forget the 3D type, Boolean operations, particles, cutting
up objects with one another, ect… Toooo much work!
If I had to choose just one program, it would be Animation:Master… provided
of course I wasn't in a "flying logo" business <BG>
For that I would take
1) Imagine — if I were working alone and my studio, delivering the finished
product…
2) TrueSpace — it the client wanted to sit in a chair next to me instead of
paying $100/h to the shrink (without half as much fun! <g>)
Pawel
Pawel
Thanks for the valuable input. I was leaning toward Animation Master at this
point, with Imagine coming in second and trueSpace third. I probably can afford
only one, though, so I still might lean toward Imagine in the end, as it seems
like the most full featured of the bunch (and the cheapest – I can get it for
$300). However, the awful user interface!!! I especially hate the attributes
dialog box (in 2.0 at least, if you uncheck one of the parameters it does not
remove the attribute from the rendering – it just disables the editing of it-
or am I missing something? — Also hate the RGB control of things like bump
maps and hardness, which is very counterintuative).
Also, I've been hearing that it's hard to create basic 2D and 3D primatives in
Playmation, it's hard to manipulate control points, and that color and texture
mapping are difficult to view without a full render (outside of decal). What
are your thoughts on these comments?
Any help would be appreciated.
Regards,
Tony
Tony,
>>>I've been hearing that it's hard to create basic 2D and 3D primatives in
Playmation.
This might be the case if you are _already_ experienced in modeling in a 3D
polygon based program… The habits and expectations get on the way… If you
don't have those and discover a good way of working in Animation:Master
primitives are a snap… You learn that everything is realated to a point zero
(pivot) and scaling in 3D is as good as draging points… Very powerful…
The frustrating part is disconecting and conecting splines to control points
the right way and the limitation of "patches" (3 or 4 points conected — more
than 4 points give you a hole)…
>>>color and texture mapping are difficult to view without a full render
Yes, this is true — Nothing I know of comes close to the immediate response of
TrueSpace in this area… Imagine with its "quick render" is also one step
ahead. tha thing that has to be said though is that a big part here is the way
you work… for example it is possible to render and manipulate splines all in
the same time if you work smart… (no way to do that in Imagine and TrueSpace)
pawel
>>This might be the case if you are _already_ experienced in modeling in a 3D
polygon based program… The habits and expectations get on the way… If you
don't have those and discover a good way of working in Animation:Master
primitives are a snap… You learn that everything is realated to a point zero
(pivot) and scaling in 3D is as good as draging points… Very powerful…<<
I'm not sure I understand. Are there 2D and 3D primatives in A:M?
>>The frustrating part is disconecting and conecting splines to control points
the right way and the limitation of "patches" (3 or 4 points conected — more
than 4 points give you a hole)…<<
This seems to be the main gripe of yours, so I want to make sure I understand.
Are control points to basis of rotations in an object or are they just the
various points along the curves? How are splines "connected" to control points?
Are "patches" pseudo "faces" bounded by the edges / vertices of the object?
Excuse my ignorance, but I have only worked with polygon based modelers in the
past.
Also, there seems to be no phong or Gouraud shading available. Is this
unnecessary in spline based objects?
One final question. Is there more than one camera available?
Whew, sorry for all the questions!! Thanks again for the help.
Regards,
Tony
I can help you with one question as I'm still learning how to use it. There is
only
one camera…but it and its target can be moved all over. Think like a movie
crew
using one big Panavision camera and you get the idea. You can't shoot it like
a multi-camera sitcom or a news show, but if you have any film background, you
know you can do wonderful things with just one camera.
>>>I'm not sure I understand. Are there 2D and 3D primatives in A:M?
I suppose this has to do with the "different animal" observation I made
earlier… Yes, they are. No, there aren't any. <BG>
Imagine a situation where to make a circle requires onlu 4 connected points…
To make a sphere it takes only half of that circle and "spin it around"… When
I got Playmation there was a library called Primitives where you would find
simple shapes — box, sphere, cone and so on… (Don't know/remember if this is
still the case). Those were regular objects, though — not the "primitives" you
find for example in Imagine.
>>>Are control points to basis of rotations in an object or are they just the
various points along the curves? How are splines "connected" to control points?
Curves are made of control points. Imagine 4 separate lines: each has to have a
control point on the end. If they are disconected — there is no shape, nothing
will render. You have to connect them (snap, glue, whatever by draging them
over each other and clicking the second mouse button) — make into a patch — 3
or 4 lines over wchich you can streach imaginary "paper" — no lines, nothing
to hang on to <g> The line between only two points can only be a straight line
— no difference from "polygon world"… When you add a third point to your
line, things come to life — you move it and the straight line turns into curve
— pretty much the way it works in Drawing porgrams; Illustrator or CorelDraw,
althogh without the Bezier type controls (You can affect the "smoothness" of
the curve with 3 diferent numerical controls, not as intuitive and with the
visual feedback of Bezier). You always scale, rotate and drag the points, the
courves simply follow, nothing can be done tho them…
>>>Are "patches" pseudo "faces" bounded by the edges / vertices of the object?
Exactly. With the difference that the surface between those points is not flat
— it flows with your curves… Unless it is between 4 points on the same place
conected with straight lines — ("peaked" points, as if the line just started
there. You can "peak" any point and forget that Playmation/A:M is "character"
type of program, it will look as stiff as most of the 3D stuff <BG>…) Since
there are no short straight lines on edges, there is no need to hide them with
Phong or Gouraud — there is nothing th hide!
>>>>Is there more than one camera available?
Now, this is something you will simply love! In Direction, you add points and
splines… As many as you want, wherever you want. You can click on any single
point an press a camera button. That point becomes your camera point — you
click on another point, press the target button and that point becomes the
target of your camera (the "eyball" of your frame)… You can jump from point
to point to see diferent views… If your camera is on a spine, the first
point is the start of your animation the last point is the end of it (using
"channels" the movement can be controled, even reversed from frame to frame —
the end point would become the maximum). Same thing with lights, light targets
and your actors… all have to be attached to single points or spines… This
part of the program is a pure joy to use!
Pawel
Ps. The graphs called "Channels" are used throughout the program for controling
the transition of changes for almost anything (with spines and points of
course) — from amount of fog, to color, light intensity, camera angle, to
scaling the objects between the frames.
Thanks once again for your speedy and informative reply. Just one follow-up.
When I had asked if there was more than one camera, I meant whether you can
place several cameras in a scene in order to view it for multiple camera angles
simultaneously. Youe are right about the time channels in Direction. From what
I can tell from the video demo, they seem way cool! I have yet to see anything
like them in another program.
>>>When I had asked if there was more than one camera, I meant whether you can
place several cameras in a scene in order to view it for multiple camera angles
simultaneously.
OK. We were talking about different things. In Animation:Master the term CAMERA
is used for the point of view for rendering (with fine controls over "lens"
angle — "f" stop and other things simmulating real life cameras). This kind of
Camera is used only in Direction module — the stage where actors come to do
their things and you set up lights cameras ans so on. Nothing can be rendered
in Animation:Master unless you create choreography in Direction (a .cho file
that will tell the renderer what to render)…My explenation was about this
kind of "viewing"… Like in real life a single person can have only a single
view of the scene at any given time. Unlike in real life there is no "travel"
from place to place. You simply jump from point to point.
As for different simultaneous views, here is what you get:
1) In Sculpture (modeling module) you have 2 half screen views with preset
position buttons for quick switching between top, bottom, left, right, front
and back, plus you can enter coordinats for angles views.
2) All other modules have single views (even if the screen might be split to
show different aspects like in Action module.
The interesting note here is that you can run more than one "session" of each
module at once. For example there is nothing to stop you to open Direction 2
times, even with the same scene and run both sessions simultaneously split
screen… (The changes in each session are not transfered over to its twin —
there are some interesting ways to work with this stuff, though).
Pawel
Still some confusion in terminology. I AM refering to a camera in Direction.
Some programs allow you to place multiple cameras in the scene in order to
capture (i.e. switch) the action from different angles, like movie editing.
Although you can only view one at a time for any particular rendered frame, you
are able to switch from which camera you will be viewing in subsequent frames,
which is much easier than moving around a single camera, I think.
Tony,
I think I might have a solution to your camera idea. In direction you can
create a spline of multiple points within the scene that the camera can follow.
This works great for moving camera shots, but it can also be used for multiple
camera angles. After creating the camera path, you can go in and edit How you
want the camera to follow it. For multi-views simply force the camera to stay
in one position on the path. Once you know where each point is in editing, its
rather simple to switch between them.
-Kevin
Tony,,
>>>Still some confusion in terminology. I AM refering to a camera in Direction.
Some programs allow you to place multiple cameras in the scene in order to
capture (i.e. switch) the action from different angles, like movie editing.
Ouch! Mr. Communicator I am not! ;=)
AM doesn't need multiple cameras the way TrueSpace needs it because you don't
have to move anything… Remember, everything in Direction has to be attached
to a single control point or a spline. Let's say you have two guys playing
chess… You add a point and than click on a button with a picture of a little
man to bring your actor (Two guys can be a *single* "actor" — it is easier for
making them interact)… Now you look at them from the top, see their heads and
the chess board… You start adding and arranging the lights.
Now the cameras: When the fat guy is talking you want a shoot from above the
shoulder of the little skiny guy — just add a point behinnd him at the right
hight (camera). Another point right in front of the face of your talker
(target).
Shot number two from above — add a point above the chessboard (camera),
another right on it (target). Shot of the little guy, looking from the eyes of
the fat guy — the point is alrady there (the one used as a target for an
earlier shot)…
And so on… you can add as many points (for stationary cameras or targets) or
splines (for moving cameras or targets in animations) as you want… Now it is
only a question of clicking on the Camera button while selecting a point (it
turns green from red) — the camera will *jump* from point to point simply by
clicking, no need to drag anything… Same trick with the camera targets…
There is a lot of genius in this program… Sometimes it is way to simple! 😉
Pawel
Pawel,
Is there any sort of demo disk available that will show some of what this
program can do and what its end results look like? This all seems pretty
interesting but I have little (make that NO) knowledge of it and would like to
learn enough about it to at least be able to discuss it intelligently.
John Parker