#MAPS and MATERIALS?
15 messages in this thread
Hello!
Well, I was thinking about the forum, my project, 3DS and computer animation
last night. I just recieved the new issue of CGW – some neat stuff… I like
the fact that they are concentrating more on animation and high end rendering
than they were before.
Anyway, I wonder if anyone would like to share some MATERIALS secrets. I've
modelled my set, taking upwards of 2 1/2 months, with about 75000 faces and 150
objects (which I hope will be cut down) and now I want to fine tune my
materials. I understand that this is the crutial stage in development of "the
personal look" (along with lighting) so some people may be hesitant to sharing
these secrets – no problem.
There was an article in the CGW about game makers, talking about using 3DS and
learning about transperancy. I understand transparency, but can never make it
look good. I want my scene to have an "old" look to it – keywords: end, sad,
quite, inevitable, retirement, slow… This is a little fruity, but maybe
you'll pick up on what I'm saying. I just want to create some maps and
materials that suite my scene but really don't know how to go about it – I
understand the THEORY of the materials editor, it's just the ideas or methods
that escape me.
Two things: fingerprints on a doorknob, and worn-out silver metal. What would
you do? I hope I'm not being to vague and weird, but maybe you'll understand.
Also, can we talk about creating maps in ANIMATOR or some similar program.
Thanks for baring with me! James
James:
>> fingerprints on a doorknob
Maybe just use a decal of fingerprints applied on a metal surface.
>> worn out silver metal
Use an automatic shiny reflection for the good part and mask it with a map for
the part where the silver has peeled away. Perhaps add a bump map for the
rough portion, also.
Greg Pyros [Pyros Partnership, Inc] gpyros@pyros.com 18-Dec-93 at 12:29p PST
<<Maybe just use a decal of fingerprints applied on a metal surface.>>
How would you create this? Actually scan a fingerprint, or draw one by hand. I
guess the scan would be more realistic…
You methods actually are very similar to how I would have thought to do these
things. Maybe I'm just being to mind-complicated, thinking it's trickier than
it is. I guess it's just a matter of breaking down individual components of a
map and adding them in, one-by-one, in the right places…
Thanks for helping me think it out, Greg James
Look at Shininess mapping as a way to break up the specular highlights with
subtle irregularities.
– Jack
Try always using shininess maps with reflection maps to dull out portions of
the refmap. Works great.
– G
Making good materials is the key, I think, to great 3DS images. There are, of
course, several ways to go about this. I'm sure you've grasped the most basic,
just adjusting the red green and blue sliders, the hue luminosity and
saturation sliders. But the real sh*t is texture maps. You can use any
compatible bitmap you want.
I use maps from the CD, but I also make many myself. I use Fractal Painter,
which is, without a doubt in my mind, the most powerful paint program available
for the PC. I've had it for almost a year, and still don't know half of what
it's capable of. Photostyler is a great image processing tool, where you can
take scanned images and manipulate them to your heart's content.
As far as incorporating texture maps, bump maps, and reflection maps, the best
thing to do is go through the **tutorials** (urgh, not again <g>!), then
experiment like a madman. You'll definitely get better with experience.
If you're a good artist (painter, etc…), then you'll be able to create some
fabulous maps. This is where a guy like Robert Stein really excels, in my
opinion. Mondo Media, here in SF, has a Fractal Painter goddess, who creates
some of the best texture maps I've seen. They really make the models look
several million times better than with just ordinary materials.
Cheers,
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
Hey John,
Yeah, you know what I was thinking.
<<Making good materials is the key, I think, to great 3DS images. >>
Absolutely. I have "mastered" the basics and I think I'm hitting a wall in my
own talents as an artist, seperate from the computer. I really have never
developed these skills properly. Put my at a computer, and I kick butt – not a
problem (well, maybe a couple <g>). But art was never my strong point (I hear
echos of the "ILM" discussion with Aaron).
Would you consider yourself an amature artist? Have you painted and drawn
before? It sounds like the "godess" of Fractal Painter was probably a pretty
good painter to begin with. Now, I think I can achieve the same results working
on the computer, rather than running out and picking up $300 worth of art
supplies. But maybe classes? I think I'm going to check around CIS and see if
there is an "artists" corner – maybe hit them up for ideas for books, etc.
And you really like Fractal Painter? I am missing something like that, although
everyone raved about Animator Pro, which a friend wants to sell to me. I played
with it for a weekend and found the interface very univiting, very unintuitive,
the manuals poor, just generally disappointed. Maybe I should give it another
shot – It's hard to believe Autodesk publishes both AniPro and 3DS – NIGHT and
DAY!
Thanks John James
The Fractal Goddess is just that: a full time Fractal texture map person.
She's not an animator/modeller.
You can get pretty decent images on CD rom, and catalogue them. That way when
you run into a material need you can create one with the help of these
pre-scanned images and a decent image processing package like Photostyler.
Art classes are always a good idea, IMHO. I went to art school, and made a
living as a graphic artist (not a good one, though) for a while. My forte,
though, is sculpture (marble… pretty in demand these days<g>) and film.
These relate pretty well to 3DS, and the interface (computer) is the only thing
holding me back as far as modelling complex organic stuff goes. But I'm making
progress in that area.
One great way to accumulate maps is to take photographs of the object/textures
you need (with a camera <g>), scan them and manipulate them as you need for the
particular job.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
Thanks John,
Most of my maps are photographically based – although I must admit that they're
all using the .TGAs and .CEL on the CR-ROM. Hopefully I'm gonna get out this
Christmas and get some new stuff to beef the pictures up.
I thinking about the art classes, if just for introduction. I've never painted
and just sketched for fun. I can see where the sculpture would be handy, but I
can also see how it may sometimes be frustration when you know exactly what you
want but can't do it with the mouse (if only I could grab that booleened
L-sphere). Should I put a "sculpting DID" on my wishlist? Maybe a little
advanced <g>…
James
James,
>> I can see where the sculpture would be handy, but I can also see how it may
sometimes be frustration when you know exactly what you want but can't do it
with the mouse…
OUCH! That one struck a nerve in me! PMJI, but you wouldn't believe how
frustrating that is. I've just spent the past 2 1/2 weeks or so modeling a
fairly complex animal, and on more than one occasion I found myself daydreaming
about just going at the monitor with my sculpting tools and finishing the model
that way (pushing and pulling single verts in a large mesh can get real tiring
after a while). At least its done now, but bump mapping skin texture and
wrinkles is comming up with its own set of problems, and animating the thing is
going to be a royal pain in the rear (morphing, morphing, and more morphing!).
My R4 wishlist is growing day by day! In the end though, being a sculptor does
make life easier when building a mesh, especially an organic one! Painting
experience is a plus too, not just for painting texture maps, but for lighting
and composition of a scene as well.
>> Should I put a "sculpting DID" on my wishlist?
I'd be just as happy with a block of clay and a good 3d digitizer. (it
would probably be much cheaper too.)
David
So David,
Do you think it's worth my while to take classes in painting and maybe even
sculpting? I wonder if anyone would have me, as I don't even have a high-school
education in art. I mean, we're talking ten year old stuff. I guess I could be
considered a "moldable block of clay" – maybe…
James
James,
This is a tricky question, as I have no idea what you personally would
get out of any sort of art class. It all depends on the person, what kind of
artistic talent they had (I don't think previous "art education" makes a
difference one way or another), and what kind of time the person has to spend
on it. If you feel uncomfortable about a painting class and would be taking it
just to help out with 3ds and other computer work, then I can almost guarantee
you would drop it in frustration after the second class. Simply taking a course
in painting or sculpture wouldn't be nearly the asset that years of experience
actually doing it would be. A photography course on the other hand might not be
a bad Idea.
I personally have not had much formal education in art, aside from
a class in the 7th grade and photo classes in highschool (tons of filmmaking in
college, but thats more technical than asthetic). But I've done sculpture and
drawing and painting, etc since I was a kid, and I'm making a living doing it
now.
I don't think I could recommend a painting or sculpture class, unless
you have an honest interest in these areas to begin with, but if you have time,
you might consider a photography class. Some good books on various photo and
art topics couldn't hurt either. Most importantly though,
don't forget to leave time for 3ds! (I've just taken a couple of months off to
get some work done and put together a demo reel) Also, experamentation
is one of the most useful things you can do, especially with materials. Go nuts
and try every setting possible with every map you can dig up or create, in
every combination, just to see what they do. Look around you and examine real
life "materials", how the light interacts with things, note imperfections and
irregularities on surfaces, how something as ordinary as dust can have a
dramatic effect on how it reflects light…. and so on. Then when it comes time
to make materials for a scene, the effect your looking for will be much easier
to achieve.
I hope this helps you out a little bit.
David
Hey David,
Thanks for the word of wisdom. I've always wanted to have some artist exposure,
but maybe now is a bad time. Very busy and all. But your suggestions for
playing with 3DS seem to be right on the mark. I've been working steady for 2
1/2 months on it now, and am really getting the hang of everything but the mat
editor – and it's not the interface or what everything does, but just the
ability to distill a good looking material out of all the possible choices. But
you're right about playing – no better way to do it than just doing it!
Thanks James
The most useful course I ever did that helped with 3DS, was a Television
lighting course which also included basic video camera skills.
The lighting and camera techniques took my crappy looking creations to a whole
new level.
If not doing a course, get a video or a book on lighting and shooting (camera
style of course <g>)
<<The most useful course I ever did that helped with 3DS, was a Television
lighting course which also included basic video camera skills. The lighting and
camera techniques took my crappy looking creations to a whole new level. If not
doing a course, get a video or a book on lighting and shooting (camera style of
course <g>)>>
Hey Stuart,
Thanks for the info. Actually, I've been lucky enough to work in film for the
last ten years or so, and I did work in lighting for about a year. You're
right, it helps A LOT. I wouldn't mind going back and working in the camera
department though…
James