#Important!!
36 messages in this thread
Steve,
Jim Reeder also called me after I faxed him a letter. I spoke with him
for about 30 minutes. He said basically the same thing to me as he did to
Pete. A custom chip replacement will cost you $20 IF you RETURN the
defective chip to Commodore. This pertains to ANY custom chip. If you don't
return the defective chip, then you pay the price of the chip + $75. So
therefore, an 8520 is going for $95 IF YOU DON"T RETURN YOUR DEFECTIVE
CHIP.
I suggested to Jim that they license the chipset for people to make
clones on the conditions that the word "Amiga" was prominently displayed on
the front of the case, and that the third party model didn't directly
compete with any of Commodore's machines. Meaning that you couldn't make a
clone of an Amiga 3000, but you could make a laptop, or an 18" wide rack
mount system, etc.
All in all, I think that this move will lower service costs dramatically
on chip replacements. Even motherboard replacements have dropped, so that
will help also.
Customer: My Agnus is bad. Repairman: Give me your Agnus and $20, plus a
$10 installation fee, and you're fixed up.
^
May vary from repair depot to repair depot
$30 for an Agnus replacement? Sound's OK to me.
Darin
– via Whap!
Darin,
Ok — did some more checking.
Yes, CBM gives the service department a credit for the defective chip. The
problem is, on the 8520, the service tech must pay the $96 per 8250 ($96 is
the wholesale cost) to have it in stock. CBM credits the service tech
against future orders when the defective 8520 is returned.
What it comes down to is that the service tech has a lot more money tied up
in parts stock (meaning he can afford to stock less) and doesn't get
reimbursed until 30 days or so after the defective chip is returned. The
service tech much also go thru the hassle of the paperwork and shipping the
defective chip back to CBM. The customer will end up paying for the extra
time the tech will be stuck doing paperwork instead of repairing equipment.
The whole purpose of this seems obvious — to make it prohibitively
expensive for a 3rd party to create any product that requires the Amiga
custom chips (ie, a laptop, a board to allow a 2M agnus in a 2000, etc.).
What it will happen because of this policy is that the service techs will
stock much fewer parts because they can't they afford to have their cash
tied up with a 10 times parts cost increase, repair time will be much
longer — most of it waiting for CBM to ship parts.
Steve,
It sure looks like CBM is trying to kill off the Amiga line. Add the
virtual destruction of their service network, through this parts thing, and
the almost 100% increase in 2×00 prices, and the clone market begins to
look much more attractive every passing day.
Bill, K3OZM
But that hypothesis assumes that Amiga clone makers would be getting chips
from U.S. sources… do we know that Grapevine, for example, buys from US
sources (like CBM direct or a CBM dealership) or does it buy from other CBM
outlets such as the far East or Canada? I've heard that A2000 prices in
Canada remain low. And why would CBM change their repair process so
drastically, just to "kill off" these non-existant clones? Seems a bit
hypocritical for a company that touts the fact their box can run Mac
software, while running an Apple clone gizmo. Still, an eight times
increase in the price of the Chip Most Likely To Blow is pretty nasty,
return credit or no return credit.
I have no idea why they've done this. As you've probably seen in this
thread, some folks got a direct answer from Reeder — they seem to be
comforted by his explanation. I'm not.
What you've got here is a policy (in the US — I have no idea if this has
been implemented elsewhere) that has increased pricing to authorized
service centers by 800-1000%. In order for the service tech to have parts
on hand to quickly and efficiently service his customers he must now layout
8-10 times the amount of cash now than he had to last week. He also must
spend as much time on paperwork and packing/shipping the blown or defective
parts back to CBM as he would on a simple repair (ie, replacing a 8520).
Then, he's got to wait 30 days or so to be reimbursed (or credited against
his next parts order). What's happened is that even the most efficient
shop now has a serious cashflow problem and less time to do repairs.
The danger of this thread is that people are hypothesizing (sp?) the Amiga
into an early grave, based on incomplete information. Like any rumor mill,
it's too easy to let things slip into the most dire predictions when things
are not necessarily that bad.
As to the repair shop having items in stock, it seems to me that a decently
stocked repair shop is still decently stocked, because he had his 8520's
and whatever else before this policy went into effect. As long as he
returns defectives as he orders new materials, he should be able to keep
the same amount of parts in stock — at least in theory. The practical
side will depend on how good a businessman he is and how meticulous he is
about sorting out and returning the old parts. Some dealers I've met
probably couldn't find the right place to insert their toothbrush in the
morning, and they won't keep up — but that's not Commodore's fault, IMHO.
That's also a whole different issue that's been debated here before.
The one who might have a real problem is a new dealer / repair shop, and I
believe that an allowance is being made for an initial stock of repair
parts for such a store. Keep in mind that along with the new pricing
structure was a notice from Reeder to the dealers that said, in effect,
"Here's a new policy we're trying out — get back to us with what you see
as real problems or hardships, so we can smooth the rough edges for you."
Don't misjudge me — I'm not easily misled, I'm not blind or stupid, and if
I thought this situation smacked of the imminent demise of the Amiga or the
support network I would be screaming (one of my job functions in the studio
is to negotiate with vendors — I'm an extremely harsh negotiator and I do
NOT put up with being jerked around). I just don't see the situation that
way: I don't see Commodore's current stance as being any different than the
rest of the industry.
Pete
Isn't this the mad scientist approach to maintaining dealerships? "Argh,
let's try this concoction, and see if they live." Amiga dealers come and
go like the wind. I thought the objective was to build the dealer base,
not induce more and more dealers to throw up their hands saying "They did
it again, let's sell clone PCs instead." I'd say it's equally likely that
most dealers didn't keep a dozen 8520s around, because they thought their
price and availability wouldn't change. Keep three on hand, order more if
lightning strikes. All of the changes CBM has made shift more of a burden
on dealers. They need more cash on hand to order anything from CBM. More
of their cash is tied up. Which clones are threatening the Amiga?
I don't have a clue, John. I'm a video person, not a dealer — and I
freely admit that I don't have my finger on the pulse of what's going on
out there.
I do know, however, that the folks who sell Macs have the same kind of
problem, as do those who sell IBM (real IBM, not clones).
Commodore appears to just be bringing themselves into alignment with the
rest of the industry.
I'm not saying there's not a problem — I'm saying that the problem is an
industry problem, not a Commodore problem.
And as for the clones — yeah, they threaten everybody's business. I doubt
that at the beginning of the IBM PC's sales anybody predicted what would
happen with clones — if they had, I suspect they would have done some
things differently. The machine I'm typing this on is a PC clone (my Amiga
is in the edit suite): this machine is a 386DX-25MHz, 4MB, SVGA, 100MB hard
drive and 5-1/4" and 3-1/2" floppies. It cost me UNDER $900. Naturally,
I'm going to buy that instead of "real" IBM (I don't remember how many
thousand dollars it would have been from Big Blue). And I can't blame
Commodore from not wanting the same thing to happen to their marketplace.
I don't think there's an easy answer that will solve Commodore's concerns
about having their technology ripped off and at the same time give dealers
free and unimpeded access to all the parts they want. If we can agree that
both of those objectives must be met, what would you (sitting in Reeder's
chair) propose as an alternative to the current policy..?
Pete
Amiga clones would legitimize this market! I wish they existed. But they
don't – so CBM's policy makes no sense. Alignment with which industry?
Could PC dealers survive if the same policies were in effect for
"commodity" components inside a clone? I'm just a software developer – what
do I know? 🙂
<< "commodity" components inside a clone… >>
But we're not TALKING about a clone, are we? We're talking about the
real McCoy. So we need to compare apples with apples (yes, the cliches are
getting a bit much; sorry). PC dealers handling the IBM PS/2 have to deal
with the same kind of controls currently being imposed by Commodore. So do
those that handle the Mac. Naturally the companies that deal with clones
don't have to worry about such things, because there's no control over
anything in that marketplace.
Pete
So you think the new chip prices and policy will help CBM, because it makes
them more like IBM dealers? Do IBM dealers pay ten times market value for
standard parts like a floppy disk drive? Of course not. And I've been to
IBM dealers who don't offer IBM replacement parts, because "commodity"
replacements exist. They don't even bother to try to sell you an IBM serial
card, they sell you a $50 Taiwanese replacement.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that the new chip prices or
policy would "help" CBM. All I did was diffuse a rumor that said the
prices for proprietary components were going up 1000% and that this was an
effort to force board swaps instead of component level repair. Then this
escalated to a speculation that Commodore was imminently going to
discontinue Amiga sales in the U.S..
This has NOTHING to do with whether I think the policy is a good idea. And
frankly, I don't know what Commodore has to gain from it. I don't think it
was necessary any more than you do. But it's not nearly as bad as what
Steve Ahlstrom initially thought was going on, which would have been, for
all practical purposes, the end of the local repair center. I don't think
the present policy will have that effect.
Pete
On the positive side of this tempest in a teapot…
Maybe CBM is protecting something we're going to _like_, eh? <grin>
Maybe it's a laptop. Maybe it's a handheld "Amiga-BOY". Maybe it's
something else.
Clearly, they have the right to say, this is OUR technology, and you are
NOT welcome to it. I applaud them for doing it a way that will work,
instead of depending on the legal trade, a waste of time, money, effort,
paper/trees and free money for one of the most parasitic of all
occupations, the lawyer.
Maybe they JUST want to protect themselves in CASE they want to do
something later. No matter what, they have the right; and it would seem,
from what I've been able to gather from the thread, that this isn't really
a problem. It either adds a small amount of turnaround to the repair, or
possibly an up-front "lend" from the customer might be appropriate.
"We have to pay this fee, but we'll get it back… you'll need an XX dollar
deposit to begin the repair process."
Or the dealership can just front it. Or, maybe they already have some
stock. Whatever. There are far more important things to worry about. DIG.
Virtual memory. Intertask protection. Lack of certain confidence from the
rest of the industry.
I dunno about you, John, but CBM's insistance that the Amiga is a "video
niche machine" and so "doesn't need" all that stuff is appalling to me. I
don't beleive it for a second. We DO need it.
–Ben
Yes, this is the way Apple protected its ROMs. Similarly, an Amiga clone
will surely need Amiga ROMs. Why don't they just protect the ROMs? Apple
doesn't turn the screws on all their other parts, do they? And Apple
eventually *helped* their clone makers. This whole clone story doesn't make
sense – a portable is hardly feasible with the power consumption of the
present chipsets, OEMs have been able to buy Amiga motherboards of all
types since the machine's inception. If they did set out to protect
themselves from this, why wouldn't they state that explicitly?
Of course there are other things to worry about. I'm sure they'll get
here, too little, too late. 🙂
Hey, at least you're "sure they'll get here". You're one up on me in that
department.
–Ben
I don't know about the infeasability of a laptop (prtables are certainly
feasible),
Ever since I saw a laptop SPARCstation IPC with a 200 meg and a floppy
drive in it, I am convinced that a laptop Amiga is feasible.
-larry
> On the positive side of this tempest in a teapot…
> Maybe CBM is protecting something we're going to _like_, eh?
Ben –
You're sounding more and more like the cat that ate the canary, spitting
out feathers <grin>.
I don't suppose you would venture a guess as to how SOON we are going to be
able to like it, would you?
. . . . . JimDoc
No, I wouldn't venture such a guess.
Also, I wasn't trying to sound like a canary, really. Just pointing out
some possibilities. The only feathers I've spit lately are those resulting
from the release (finally) of our morphing tools. You have no idea how long
we kept that one quiet. I'll taste metaphorical feathers for years.
Just my guess, but maybe they don't want an 'Amiga on a card' that would
fit into PCs and Macs … and wouldn't have the Amiga name on it anywhere.
andy
Maybe they should raise the price of the Amiga even higher, just so it
doesn't fall into enemy hands, like PC or Mac owners. If someone did an
Amiga on a card, couldn't CBM simply make a better one? And if a third
party made an Amiga card, wouldn't they probably need Amiga ROMs? It all
seems so crazy.
Theory that just popped into my mind:
Incredibly popular video hardware add-on is very dependent upon the
Amiga. Maker of said hardware wants to make "on-a-card" versions for other
computer platforms. Plans to essentially build video-related compontents of
the Amiga onto said card. Commodore gets wind and dries up the supply of
extra chips.
What do you folks think of my neat new conspiracy theory?
Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. But a 3rd party Amiga card that
plugs into a PC or MAC and can only be used for just one function isn't an
Amiga at all, and doesn't do the Amiga community any good…no software
development for it, no hardware development, no name recognition at all.
The only company it would benefit would be the one who designed the card.
Isn't there a legal course of action which CBM can take concerning the use
of their proprietary stuff…or is that just not practical?
via Whap! Al Benglen
74615,500
Well, I don't work for Commodore, and I'm not a lawyer. But as a practical
matter, it seems to me that if someone purchases a component part
over-the-counter through a legitimate channel, he can do as he pleases with
it. What that person CAN'T do is duplicate it and produce it himself.
So as long as Commodore is selling parts, a developer (it seems to me) can
purchase those parts and use them to manufacture a product. Commodore's
only recourse would appear to be either to price the parts out of reach or
stop selling them at all.
Pete
Pete,
The parts contain copyrighted material (software to be exact) and
Commodore may license that software any way they wish.
Don
Licensing of software, if available in the form of an over-the-counter
part, such as a ROM, is a very grey area. While it is a piece of software
to you and I, it is a piece of hardware to others, and the software is only
implemmenting the transfer function of the chip, in no different a manner
than any other device containing any software, such as microcode in a CPU
chip. The important part of the process of deciding is, of course, what the
judge and/or jury think, and I'm not sure that CBM would want to take their
chances in court, in preference to pricing the parts such that it becomes
impractical to produce clones with them.
-larry
Don,
Not necessarily. The 8520 chip (which started this thread, I believe) is
not firmware — it's hardware. That would not be affected in any way by
legislation that protects software or firmware.
Pete
"I thought the objective was to build the dealer base…" <<<
John:
I don't know where you ever got that idea. CBM has always been a
mass-market oriented company. The upper end of the Amiga line is just
something that CBM has zero experience marketing. In Europe, the clones and
A500's are king (and require no dealer base). In the US the Amiga line
really is an orphan. The 500 is available through mass-market channels, but
because it is so much more powerful than the 64, it scares mass-market
customers away. As as I know, CBM wouldn't know what to do with a real
dealer base even if they did have one.
If CBM ever made the decision to enlist and support a dealer base the way
that Apple has done with the MAC line, it might be interesting to see just
how well the Amiga _could _ do in the US. However, that would be a
tremendous departure from CBM's past efforts, and frankly, I don't think
they currently have the management team (or the desire) to do it.
In fact, IMHO, I think CBM has done everything possible to avoid getting in
to the development and support of a dealer base. CBM knows that just 2
years of a 'hit' in the mass-market is worth more $$ than ten years of
dealer sales and far more profit.
Michael
….from the north coast
I don't think so… if they wanted to sell A2000s and A3000s by mail
order, or "mass" distribution, then they would – but they aren't, they sell
them through dealers. Why do those products exist? If CBM only sold
A500s, I might believe you. Not to say that you might be right – maybe they
should sell only A500s.
The interesting thing is that this allows Commodore to get, in essence,
interest-free loans from their dealers/service-centers! What a deal 🙂
Not from MY dealer they won't. He's smart enough to know what my father
told me once: you get rich by holding other people's money.
Pete,
I hope you are correct with the conclusions in your final paragraphs.
But CBM does not have a good track record when it comes to dealing with
loyal users. If they are not changing their tune, they are the ones
responsible for putting the Amiga in an early grave.
via Whap! Al Benglen
74615,500
"But CBM does not have a good track record when it comes to dealing with
loyal users."
While there's lots of things I would have like to have accomplished by CBM
for the Amiga that are still just 'gee I wish…' stuff, you HAVE to give
CBM credit for the remarkable downward compatibility of the AMigaOS.
The achievement of 2.04 is nothing short of incredible. In fact, as I
understand it, many enhancements were dropped from 2.0 so that 2.04
wouldn't break more software than it does. I call that one hell of a
committment to loyal users, and I'm not even sure I AGREE with that
decision… I would have like to seen a bigger jump in the cpability of the
OS, EVEN at the expense of older software.
I think you are confusing being a customer/user of CBM with being an OWNER
of the company. They OWE nothing to nobody but themselves and their
shareholders, and to that end, all we can do is make our concerns known.
Michael
….from the north coast
I would like to add that Commodore is now providing a real warranty and a
real service program. Not to mention three different trade up offers when
new hardware arrived on the scene.
I can a lot of bad things about CBM, but I think they are supporting their
customers just fine. I remember when that was not the case.
-mark=
– whappity whap whap… whap whap!!
Mark,
..cough, cough,… I'd like some of what you've been smoking :^}
The best support CBM can offer is to sell many machines so that more
developers bring better products at lower prices to the Amiga. A $2000
price tag on a 2000 says, "you don't wanna buy this machine, do ya!"
Who, exactly, is supported by that kind of pricing?
wmc
MIcheal,
Remember, tho, that it was meant only for loyal users in Europe and
austraila and New Zealand. Irv baby wants the Amiga to do badly or die
altogether in the U.S. but to make it look like a failure rather than a
designed move so that he gets big tax write-offs and makes big bucks on
international monetary exchanges and stock price manipulation. 2.04 would
never have shipped in the U.S. had not some dedicated Amiga technonerds in
CBM alerted Denny Atkin of the impeding desruction of the packaged, ready
to ship 2.04's in the U.S. Even after the outcry when the word got out,
Irv baby kept a-draggin and a-shufflin for 4 more months before significant
numbers of ship-sets appeared. And the backorders are an indication of
coninued contempt for American users.
Remember, Irv and the boys aint stupid (just greedy). And even stupid
people could do a better marketting job than CBM has done. So you have to
believe the other alternative – they don't want it to sell in this country.
(Who in their right mind would pay $2000 for a 2000?)
wmc