#Ed & Cltd
36 messages in this thread
I've been on the forum since the end of 1985, and during this time I've heard
constant complaints about the products, lack of delivery, rip-offs and other
problems with almost every Amiga vendor out there. One of the few exceptions
has been C-Ltd, and I for one was pleased to buy one of their products many
months ago – with no problems and lots of cooperation since. Ed announces new
products and answers questions and sometimes asks us what we want in new
products. To me not only is all that legitamate, but he's earned the right if
he wanted to use it to stretch the rules a bit – although I don't think he has
stretched anything.
Ron Troy
Way to go Roy, and keep it up Ed!
Bri
Ron,
Ed has NO!!! (and that is NO!!!) right to stretch any rules for ANY!!!
reason what-so-ever. What is this talk about no complains for Cltd products.
Just go back and read some messages. 'Cltd ram card has wait states',
'Cltd ram card does not work with Starboard', 'Cltd ram card has the worse
case', 'Cltd ram card heat problems', 'Cltd hard disk heat problems',
'Cltd hard disk controller interface problems' and so on…..
I am sure some of those complains have been fixed but others have not!!!
From a person who's been putting the heat on CBM about the Sidecar and
transformer you've got a lot of nurve to come here and tell me that Ed
messages were OK.
I wonder if you expect your ram card to work with a 9 slot expantion box.
All that we are using right now the edge connector is for ram and hard
disk storage. Sidecar had both in one package (don't get me wrong, I still
won't buy sidecar).
(Continued……)
Sidecar, as I've seen it, is almost useless, has many problems, and hasn't been
delivered. I'm not saying that Ed is perfect, but his equipment has the best
overall record that I've seen. Other vendors have often not shipped, but
happilly collected moeny. When things broke down, fixes, if they came often
took a long time. I could go on and on, but I think you get my point. I won't
discourage you from your complaints, but do give credit where its due.
Ron
Ron,
Microbotics never collected money and shipped no product, Xebec never
collected money and shipped no product, ASDG, Supra, ASD, Comspec and
others the same. The only company that has done this was Technisoft and
they have cleared their problems also. So I think is you that is NOT giving
credit where is due. If you look back at my messages you will see that I
used the Cltd hard drive against the pricing and configuration of Paljr.
So as you can see I have nothing against Cltd (the company). I actually
think that all of those people (including Ed) are working very hard at
their jobs. But lets not thing that they are the only ones that are doing
this. I am only saying that Company Spokesman SHOULD NOT MAKE BAD
COMMENTS against their competitors. Lets leave that to the users.
Bill:
I assume then you have enjoyed reading Perry (ASDG) K's
comments of late! (ie: MSG 59864)
E.J. Lippert II
C Ltd. – (316) 267-6322
Amen!
I can't argue that last point. I do prefer the users to be the one to say it,
although anyone who can prevent someone else from needlessly wasting money
should feel free. By the way, despite many phone calls, I still don't have
T-Move 1.20 from Technisoft. I do hope to get the new and improved version
instead, fairly soon, but who knows if it will survive the US mail or UPS and
actually reach me in a usable form. I know they're trying, but it is very
frustrating to deal with a vendor that doesn't return phone calls or CIS
messages for weeks and months at a time.
Bill
I agree that there are some problems with C Ltd hard drives: shoddy card box,
heat from the drive, noise from the drive (!); also, we had some software
problems. However, the messages I've seen from Mr Lippert have been product
announcements (I remember a similar announcement from Xebec when they started
shipping) and some requests for user input. He has the right to defend his
stuff when reasonable technical questions come up. I think you're being
excessively hard on him, possibly in frustration with his product lines.
If this Xebec drive is as good as you say, I'll have to check it out. Anybody
want a used C-Ltd 20MB? 🙂 I only used it to store my C: directory on
Sundays…
Mike
I also think it is good of Ed to come on here and help out, answer questions,
and even show product announcments, so why complain.
Would you all rather that he spend his money on advertisements in magazines
that tell you nothing and spent his evenings at home watching TV and having a
beer (No offence Ed).
Bri (Soon to be a manufacturer also) Niessen.
Mike,
I wish it was true what you are saying, but its not!!
Maybe you have missed some messages (you normaly will if you don't read
all messages every 2-3 days as the scroll rate is very fast).
As far as the Xebec drive is concerned thats my preference. I want speed.
Heck, if I just wanted more storage I would have used the 3 floppy drives
that I build for about $300. Xebec is 100% faster than the Cltd drive and
about 20% cheaper (in wholesale prices) and I think better constructed
and just as good supported (with a toll free number I may add). Please
also read my previous messages for more info on where I stand.
Regards.
(Continued….)
If you are talking about Amiga products then look at Starboard. Look at
Xebec. These are by far the best possible combination of
ram/clock/68881/parity/SCSI/fast/hard disk combo in the market right now.
Look at the stream lines of Starboard and look at Cltd card. Its night and
day. 6 screws are showing the cheap construction of Cltd's ram card and NO!!
screws the Starboards. The same goes for the hard drive.
Listen, I am NOT trying to say, DON'T buy this BUY that, I just think the
Users should decide for them selfs. I don't even mind Mr Lippert comming
out and announcing products.
But the moment I read comments in his messages regarding other competitors
thats the moment I'll put the flame on (not only him, but any company
spokesman, no matter if thats Supra, ASDG, Xebec or so on..).
It serves no purpose in comming out and saying "I Love it, is the best thing"
I think we can all push products a bit further with some good comments.
But Mr. Lippert has step into the wrong field. Lets stop the ill fated
comments. A company spokesman should comment on his products announce new
ones, provide tech support but NEVER!! make ill fated comments about
competitors. To me Mr Lippert proved that he cares more about making money
than serving the Amiga community (and making money at the same time).
It was me that made the comments to Byte By Byte about their Paljr. Well
what do you know!! The Pal jr. has been redesign to the specs that I had
commented about 3-4 months ago. That's what I mean.
Regards.
Ed has even talked to the competition to make sure the boards work together.
Also, I've had my board for many months, and I've never had a problem with its
construction or performance.
Ron
I have an Amega here — it's been running flawlessly for about six
months now… I even carried it from florida to pennsylvania in the
back of my Z28 from 95% humidity and 80 degree temps to 0% humidity
and 10 degree temps. It got snowed on, lightly, even. Still works
great. I've been keeping the includes (lattice) in it for several
weeks now, and everythings still fine. Sounds to me like it's a
good product. So… I don't mind hearing Ed go on a bit… as a matter
of fracture, (or fractals) I think it's very healthy for us as
consumers to get to sit and watch any interplay beween developers
of competing products — this isn't just advertising, it's a
(more or less) real-time dialog. So don't get huffy. What you don't
like, others do. And there are too many rules and regulations now;
lets not zip this place up so tight that it won't be any fun unless
you're a faith healer with acute appendicitis looking for some
inspiration. –Ben–
Way to go Ben!
Bri
(PS. Ed, when do I get the $5.00 you mentioned) <smile>
In case you hadn't figured it out, I also agree (with what I just said). This
forum may not be perfect, but there is an incredible interplay between users
and vendors I've never seen anywhere else. Most of what goes on here (except
the repetition and even that) really ends up helping people.
Ron
Ben:
Its not so much fun when they become personal attacks. Sorta like the
(theoritical) difference between debate and argue. I would much rather
participate in the former. 73s,
bill
Well, yes, there *is* a difference; However… The design and
implementation of any technical product, hardware or software
is in the end a personal issue; Both for the designer, who is
the one who goes through a *very* personal process choosing a
set of characteristics that make a product, and for the final
user, who has to live with it. It's worth getting steamed for
even if it makes you cuss. Because in that argument there can
be the seeds of a new, better product. I wish everyone knew a
bit about the shouting matches that can develop about any one
product WITHIN a company… they wouldn't worry about this so
much. Suffice it to say that if someone from say, the crew at
MicroIllusions got on here and tried to flame PCLO, we'd come
right back at them with our feelings… others would throw in
their 2 cents worth, and for the user community, there'd have
to be a benefit no matter what the outcome. (of, course, we'd
win THAT easy… <grin>) –Ben–
Geez, Ben, did you justify the last message on purpose, or was it just a fluke?
Bri
I did it on purpose — I do that sometimes as a mental exercise…
it's fun. You never saw me do that before? I think I must have put
up about 10 or 20 of them that way. You just say whatever you want
for the first two thirds or so of each text line, and then you try
to think ahead and draw on your vocabulary for synonyms, alternate
phrases, and possible apostrophe uses for the same meanings. There
has always been a way to do it, when I was trying. The top line in
a message is always *any* length, and then you have to make it all
work from there. No editing, because that's cheating. Besides, CI$
kinda makes it only fun if you can do it while you type.
.
<grin> –Ben–
You never cease to amaze me ben.
Bri
Ben:
I have been in some of those shouting matches. My complaint is that in
a public forum (or at least simi-public) (not so)common courtesy demands polite
behaviour. Given all else equal (and often when not equal), my dollar will go
to the man or women that can also display control, restraint and professional
behavior.
This is no place for personel attacks and competing companies would do
well to be very careful when making critical comments about anothers products.
73s,
bill
Well, I disagree. Public and semi-public speaking, publishing, and
so on, at least in this country, has a history of being 'free', by
which we take the broad meaning of 'I can say whatever I want to'.
This forum is a *private* forum, in the sense that CI$ gets to set
the rules for all of us. Now, if this were the Penthouse forum, it
would be public, and we could say whatever we want. As it is, when
rules are made, it tends to reduce our ability to say what we want
to say, and more of what the *other* guy wants us to say. I really
think that it's in the public interest for developers, users, even
manufacturers to be able to thrash each other, right here. From an
admittedly biased perspective (my family is all writers and so on)
I say, don't censor — it's a sickness that belongs nowhere in our
culture. Besides, these people are intellegent, articulate, and in
general a joy to read. If they argue or shout a bit, so what? Grin
and bear it, Bill… By the way, my CAD program is better than the
others for PCB work. Really! <chuckle> –Ben–
Ben:
PCLO is the best for CB layout, owing them all, trying them all,
has not altered that opinion one iota. And I will argue that point with
any one any time, and I don't sell your product and have nothing to gain
by my position in support of it.
E.J. Lippert II
C Ltd. – (316) 267-6322
Ron,
I can say the same thing about my Starboard, my Xebec drive and my A-Time.
They all are working 24 hr a day without any problems.
On the other hand I heard of problems with these products as I heard from
Cltd products. (Specially those Cltd ram cards).
But that doesn't mean that I will go around preaching about the above.
I wouldn't even be here typing these messages if it wasn't for the ill
fated comments of Ed.
Understand my point. Ed comes out saying 'we are an Amiga specific company
so we will support you better' so support us and not the OTHER company
that is NOT Amiga specific. Come on!! who are we kidding!!!
Ed says 'We found out that the problem was with ' the other guys and
so we fixed their problem by changing the pals. Steve Grand left a message
while ago giving the true story about this. So why the 'its their problem
not ours' and hoopla and faster fister and 'We are the champions'.
Ed knows that the telecomm. medium is a very powerfull one. One person
hears these things goes to his user club meeting and says 'buy the Cltd
product and not the A or B product because so on… and so on….', and
don't tell me that it isn't so because I will give you phone # and actual
services to call and find out for yourself.
So as you can see Ed is just selling his products through bad comments like
that. I don't mind at all his comments about other things or his tech
support, but I do mind him misleading other people with his BAD and UN-TRUE
COMMENTS.
Here Here. Not only is Eddy Lippert spreading lies about his more worthy
competitors on Compuserve, but he's recently begun spreading them in print.
What amazes me is that people believe him when he says “before you use one of
my products you have to cut and jumper these 80 things but it isn't our
fault.'' Bull. How would you like to pay cash for a car and then have the
dealer rush out before you drive it away and say “oh yeah, before you go we
have to replace the engine, but it isn;t our fault.''
Eddy has the gaul to even slander other company's who do not exhibit the same
design flaws his products contain. And then he say's “but look! we are doing
you a favor by telling you how to fix these mistakes on our board (but they
weren't our fault) and these other companies don't!''
And some people believe him. That is the dangerous thing. That is why Eddy will
be talking to our lawyers quite soon.
A used car salesman would not be allowed to promulgate such lies about quality
competition for very long. A used car salesman also does not have access to
such publicly read forums such as compuserve.
Yet when one thinks of all the stereotypical rip-off methods some used car
salesman use, one cannot help but see these same qualities in Eddy Lippert.
(oh yeah – I just got off the phone with a dealer who just got off the phone
with his C Ltd rep who told him flat out the C Ltd disk systems were
CONSIDERABLY faster than Xebec. The dealer reported that the rep kept insisting
CONSIDERABLY faster.)
Draw your own conclusions.
personal opinions by Perry Kivolowitz
Its strange, but even on my very early board from C-Ltd (in a Cardci box) I
never had to cut any jumpers to make it work. I could if I wanted, or I could
send it to him, but I've never felt the need. And when I was feeling very
frustrated about not being able to use transformer with the board in place, I
called Bill Teal and Ed and talked to them and a few days later Ed sent a board
to Bill so he could update transformer (that update eventually included Amiga
Dos 1.2, though CBM never released it). He's also worked with other vendors to
help clear up incompatibilites. He's not perfect, but he's my first choice for
add-ons for my Amiga.
Bill, remember Tecmar? They had the best looking units, but did anyone show
any interest? No, all we did was complain that it was too expensive. So, Ed
came along and produced a box that was inexpensive, but to do so, he had to cut
some corners (So it has a few screws).
I know hod Ed feels, and I bet if he won a million bucks, he would not even
bother worrying about computers anymore (I know I wouldn't)
Yes, most people are in the business of supplying Soft/Hardware to make money,
they are plain stupid if they are not. You don't really expect a manufacturer
to produce a product with no profits?
Bri (Flame dimishing) Niessen
Bri:
He wouldn't and neither would you! You would breath a little easier
though. The drive to make money is not the only reason for manufacturing a
product. The desire to product a quality product becomes its own drive. A
company whos only motive is profit (and naturally profit is important) is not
likely to be very sucessful. The management will not live particularly
fullfilling lives. It is far more important that what you do provides a real
benifit to others than most people realize.
One can live a life without ever really trying to help another, still
make a lot of money but will never experiance that 'warm fuzzy feeling' that
comes only from helping someone without any expectation of a return. I would
rather be 'poor and not selfish' than 'rich and selfish.' Those conditions,
fortunately, are not mutually exclusive. Wealth can be, like happiness, a
by-product. 73s,
bill
Pretty sentiments Bill, but does it put clothes on the baby's back? <Har,
Har!!!>…Dave
Brian,
Don't make me change my opinion about you and your writings.
(I am against copy protection though). If you are joking ok, but if you
are not then because I feel am talking to a little kid that just wants
to play with screws (go ahead make my day 😎 ) I want even pay attention
to your messages any more.
Get off you high chair and read the real meat (no where is the beef here).
I do expect everyone to make an honest living (even if its 1 billion per
day).
Things can only get better. If you are one of those that says that its
good enough, then you should still be using a CP/M machine (nothing
against Z80. I still thing is quite fast thank you) and not an Amiga.
I think you get my point. Bring the best in you in programming RSN.
Regards.
Bill, take easy!! It was a joke of sorts! (Sheesh!)
L8R Bri
Brian,
I didn't see the smile on your face either. When leaving a message
within a serious thread, it pays to announce your jokes with a <grin> or some
indication that it is a joke.
Regards, Larry.
Bill:
You are right in that we would all be better off if the manufactures
would sing their own praise, defend their products against us (users) and leave
each other alone. We (users) can definately come up with enough critical
comment without help. Ed has made comments against other products and I would
just as soon those comments had not been made by him, but a review of the
message base over the last year will clearly show that Ed is definately not the
only manufacture to 'attack' others products. Again, I think (as you do) that
we would all be better off if Ed, Perry and others would try to avoid the
natural temptation to take 'shots' at each other(s' products).
73s,
bill
Bill,
You got it!!!!
I agree with you 1000%. I can only hope that everyone is reading this
thread and we won't have any more of these.
Lets just all devote our time to make the Amiga the BEST COMPUTER THERE IS!!!
(yeahh,clap,clap,mrmrmr,clap,yeah) millions are listening. 😎
Regards.