#Animation Master
44 messages in this thread
Expanding (Expounding?) on your comments, Roger. You know what really bugs me
about plugins (IPAS, etc) is that I can count on one hand the number of times
that developers EVER update and improve them! Hurrah for MetaRyes v2 at NO
CHARGE to v1 owners. At $300-$1000 per, these programs should be looked at as
SERIOUS software programs and hense, should be kept up-to-date. Sorry if any
developers take offence here, but do you think I would pay $2500 for 3DS if it
remained at version 1 for life? I think NOT!
>> NEVER. Through talking to all of my contacts, associates, and everyone in
the user group, no one I know has ever gotten a client to bite on this idea.
So we're expected to buy these things, become burdened with how many different
copy protection schemes, have the developer decide it's not worth updating or
improving in 6 months. We're just plain out the money. Very few of the IPASs
that I've bought so far have turned out to be profitable for me. They were
cool to play with, but very few of them ever ended up enriching me or my
business.
Considering all of this, are these IPAS routines too expensive? Yah, way too
expensive.
Roger D. <<
I'll jump in on this one. I run a small freelance design company. Money is very
often tight and I have only managed to buy 4 IPAS routines (only?). I recently
voiced a concern to my dealer about portability to future releases to of 3DS.
What happens with the jump to an NT version. WIll all IPAS routines follow. I
agree that for 3-$400 a pop, these IPAS routines are equivalent to a CorelDraw
or Illustrator – full blown programs which keep themselves up to date.
On another concern sometimes I find it easy to question the benefit of IPAS
routines. Other programs add functionality to the core program and charge the
yearly upgrade price (not unlike 3DS) but most plugins, (like for photoshop,
illustrator, additions for pagemaker) all add functionality to the program but
cost $50 to $200 usually. To get all the effects you want to have your
investment in IPAS routines can easily make your purchase of 3DS seem like a
drop in the bucket.
I too am on the short end when it comes to getting the routines I want. Most of
my animations range from $300 to $1000. Some more, some less. I have to pay the
bills and can't always dump 3-$400 back into the program.
Just thoughts,
Paul
Fresh Look Design
The difference between photoshop plug-ins and 3DS plug-ins is that the
photoshop market is an order of magnitude larger than the 3DS market (at
least).
Because of that, and because the 3DS plug-in developers have a penchant for
eating, they have to charge an order of magnitude more for their 3D plug-ins.
Once the 3D plug-in market matures (over the next few years), it should exhibit
market dynamics that being to approach the scale of the photoshop market… but
since 3D is so much more specialized than 2D, it'll be a long time before you
see complete parity between the two markets.
Regarding upgrades to r5… All of the developers currently marketing IPAS
routines have expressed their desire to make the transition as painless as
possible.
– G
This thread on cost of tools is is intersting because things change so
quickly in this field. A few weeks after reading about cool 3dpaint in CGW for
30k, Meshpaint comes out (it may not have all the same features yet but it look
like it will improve quickly). On the other hand $500 is a huge ammount of
money if you havnt got it. My students are aching to get into 3d but they are
often stuck in the 386 4mb ram zone.
What I notice is that a program that is hard to work with or lacks something I
need is like a rock in my shoe; constantly irritating. On the other hand if it
works great I forget about the money I paid even if it was a little too much.
Ed
Ed,
You nailed it here. I don't complain if it's big $$ if it has lasting value.
It's nice that most IPAS developers are doing the DEMO thing. The KPT demo
really sells it for me since you can actually try the IPAS with the suppiled
samples in one of your own pieces. That's really nice. I tired NAVCIS Pro's
30day timed version and that sold me on the package (Now if it would only show
up in my mail, cause I had to go back to WinCIM (Argggh). I would like to see
more IPAS DEMO's that allow some limited use in a "real world" scenario cause
just staring at the buttons dosn't always work. Timed, polygon limited, or
such might be one way to allow the purchaser a BETTER look than the dealer
saying it's $500 and really, really cool. Then again, there's always the folks
hear on CIS.
Chow,
>> What I notice is that a program that is hard to work with or lacks something
I need is like a rock in my shoe; constantly irritating. On the other hand if
it works great I forget about the money I paid even if it was a little too
much.
Ed <<
<< I would like to see more IPAS DEMO's that allow some limited use in a "real
world" scenario cause just staring at the buttons dosn't always work. Timed,
polygon limited, or such might be one way to allow the purchaser a BETTER look
than the dealer saying it's $500 and really, really cool. Then again, there's
always the folks hear on CIS.
This forum is so valuable for getting the real story on all kinds of
products. I like the idea of more robust but still limited demos. For example,
using multiple instances of Penello cant be checked out in the demo but thats a
very powerful way to use it.
ED
Gary:
I know you probably can't comment so I'll be satisfied that you'll listen to
what's on my mind. 3DS R5 is going to NT and will most likely include a whole
slew of improvements. My understanding is that Yost Group improvements really
didn't make it into R4 although the architecture was opened up wider to 3rd
party developers. So, I'm faced with a decision which may be typical of other
3DS users. Do I buy now the few IPAS routines which I could use (all Yost Group
routines) or do I hold out until SIGGRAPH to find out if some of these routines
get built into the core of 3DS R5? Routines like Optimize, Displace, Vapor and
others seem to have the kind of universal appeal which I'd love to see in the
base package. Is there any chance that some currently offered IPAS routines
would be incorporated into R5? If I buy the IPAS today and it does become
incorporated in R5 what do I get for my IPAS investment? Nada? A credit towards
R5? A trade for another routine? There are a couple of routines which I'd like
to buy now but I'm gonna be dismayed if the routines suddenly become obsolete.
Thanks for listening.
Bob
Bob, I'll try to answer your questions without saying anything I'm
not supposed to say.
>My understanding is that Yost Group improvements really didn't make it
>into R4 although the architecture was opened up wider to 3rd party
>developers.
Not quite correct. We developed the IK routine and the underlying interface
for keyscript. Additionally, we sped up quite a few things that were slow
in r3, we fixed all open r3 bugs, and we (way) enhanced the IPAS interface.
>Is there any chance that some currently offered IPAS routines would be
>incorporated into R5?
You can be sure that _some_ of the more-general routines that are currently
in the YG Boutique will be included in r5, but the less-general ones
probably won't be. Those will be available as (very reasonable) upgrades
for current boutiquers.
>If I buy the IPAS today and it does become incorporated in R5 what do
>I get for my IPAS investment? Nada? A credit towards R5? A trade for
>another routine? There are a couple of routines which I'd like to buy
>now but I'm gonna be dismayed if the routines suddenly become obsolete.
This is a very tough problem for me, but the truth is that since some
of the boutique routines really ought to be incorporated in the core
package, I'm going to have to bite the bullet. What do you get for
your investment? Well… hopefully you'll be buying them to get
specific jobs done this year that you couldn't get done any other way,
and those jobs will pay for the cost of the routines that you need
to buy this year.
The move to NT is not going to be without some of these rough edges.
I've always tried to make sure that there was enough value within
everything we produced to offset the little bumps along the road.
– G
Gary:
I truly appreciate your response and thank you for correcting my
misunderstanding of the Yost Group's involvement in the R4 release.
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
You can be sure that _some_ of the more-general routines that are currently in
the YG Boutique will be included in r5…This is a very tough problem for me,
but the truth is that since some of the boutique routines really ought to be
incorporated in the core package, I'm going to have to bite the bullet.
__________________________________________________________________
This is reasonable and was my guess. This should keep 3DS on top of the heap
and even more of an attraction to the SGI crowd. I'd love to see the core
package grow to include some of the more general routines as you'd probably
guess. It is definitely my preference to have most of my 3DS investment in the
core package and not in (possibly ephemeral) 3rd party plug-ins.
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
I've always tried to make sure that there was enough value within everything
we produced to offset the little bumps along the road.
__________________________________________________________________
You have certainly succeeded (actually exceeded) in offering quite a value in
3DS. I'm trying to map out a smooth path to NT for all of the applications I
use, 3DS looks fairly smooth for me right now. Thanks for your response and for
smoothing a few bumps.
Bob
>> I'm going to have to bite the bullet.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I for one would "give up" any IPAS I
purchased for the added benefit of having it integrated into your core
software. Let's keep moving forward.
– Dave
>>>WIll all IPAS routines follow. I agree that for 3-$400 a pop, these IPAS
routines are equivalent to a CorelDraw or Illustrator – full blown programs
which keep themselves up to date.<<<
That was my opinion on Mesh Paint. Yes it looks useful, but I think it is
overpriced at $500. I was suprised when someone from the Yost Group told me if
I didn't feel Mesh Paint was worth $500 that I didn't know what I was talking
about.
Tim, I think that Jack's comment to you came out of his complete surprise at
your comment that you didn't think meshpaint was as valuable as he thought it
was. It was more a statement that, given that any other 3D paint package is
10-30x more expensive than meshpaint, Jack thought that it was an incredible
bargain.
– G
To look at this another way, what's the lowest price you'd pay for an IPAS?
Obviously, some people have given away IPASes for free. But when someone buys
commercial software, they not only get the program itself, and probably paper
documentation, but tech support, continuing development, reasonably rapid bug
fixes, etc. That's the gap between free software commercial software. Sure,
there are examples of generous and beneficent freeware and shareware authors,
but once you start charging for software, customers expect a certain amount of
service.
In sub-markets like this (that is, among third-party developers of IPAS
routines), the volume of sales and the profit from those sales require
relatively hgh-priced add-ons.
Another interesting question: when you lower the price of the main product, be
it 3D Studio or any of the sub-$1000 3D packages, it gets even tougher to
develop plug-ins and yet maintain a price that lets you survive.
I can see both sides to this. For the most part I feel the route taken is the
best for all. It is though tough to get the system you want without breaking
the bank.
I compare it to Strata Studio Pro on the MAC. It does many IPAS like things
included in the $895 package price. But the program does fall short in many
areas and you wonder how much they can improve and keep up with other programs
when offering yearly $99-$199 upgrades.
So maybe IPAS works best. I just hope that 3DS grows and grows and IPAS
routines continue to be more affordable. The trend does not currently look that
way. I started with IPAS group #1 for $295, then #7 for the same, then I just
bought Bones Pro and LensFX, buying both in a hurry for $295 to avoid the price
going to $395. I can't afford to get KPT before it's price goes up, and I have
to move now on Dynamic Motion Module before it goes up too. That trend is
sloping the wrong way. But I guess we can look at Panello which started at
about $995 and now is $595 (or something in that neighborhood).
Paul
Another thing to think about… the very existence of a plug-in architecture
might work against the incorporation of features into new releases of a
product. For example, if lens flares became the rage after one release of 3DS,
and then a company came out with a very nice lens flare package and all those
clamoring for lens flares bought that, then "lens flares" might not pop up on
the next wish list. The existence of the plug-in reduces the "squeaks" that
might otherwise percolate up to the design team.
Now the Yost Group has graciously stated that they'll step aside and remove
their own plug-ins from the market when it becomes apparent that a third-party
has developed their own comparable (or better) product. Indeed, this happened
with lens flares. I'm sure few competitors among the IPAS developers excluding
the Yost Group will be so kind to each other, unless the market compels them to
yank a product for sheer inferiority. 🙂
We've seen similar conflicts arise in the AutoCAD market, no? Some version of
AutoCAD is missing a feature, a third party develops an add-on to deliver it,
then Autodesk determines they need that feature to compete, so they develop
their own similar feature as a built-in to the product. So when you beg
Autodesk to "fold in" the features of certain IPAs routines, you're going to
affect all those nice IPAS-making companies. 🙂
This is an extremely interesting issue, and one that we're all (here) very
sensitive to.
The good news is that the world of 3D is so huge that there doesn't _have_ to
be a tremendous amount of competition in any one area. Since we're all "playing
god" inside of the computer, there ought to be enough different fun plug-ins to
do for the rest of our lives.
We're working on setting up better lines of communication between Autodesk and
developers to help this process along.
– G
I'm sure Autodesk is sensitive to this, as I said, because of the way some
third-party vendors got upset as "their" features were added to AutoCAD. I'm
sure it's upsetting to them; but on the other hand, it's unrealistic to expect
that new features wouldn't be added when they can. Hopefully, things will
continue to heat up in the 3DS market, and you'll be forced to incorporate all
existing IPAS ideas into the main product within the next two major releases.
🙂
I think you'll understand our approach to this once we start talking about it
at Siggraph. (It involves changing the shape of the universe slightly, but I
can't be more specific about it until August.)
– G
Gary,
RE: Universe changes.
Does this have anything to do with the fact that universe is younger than the
stars? I'm still trying to figure that one out. Who said the Hubble was a
FLOP! By the way, based on the knowledge that you are a fan of the FS Theatre,
you must also like Douglas Adams. If so, did you catch Ripley's Believe it or
Not on the SCI-FI channel today? After all these years I finally learned the
meaning of "42"
>> Siggraph. (It involves changing the shape of the universe slightly, but I
can't be more specific about it until August.)
– G <<
Besides being the meaning of life, what else could 42 mean? Another mystery to
be revealed, eh?
– G
Well, this really crazy episode of Ripley's went on about this ritual in Japan
where 25yr old men have to protect all the 42yr old elders of the village.
Turns out that 42 in Japanese means "to die…."
>> Besides being the meaning of life, what else could 42 mean? Another mystery
to be revealed, eh?
– G <<
>>>I'm sure Autodesk is sensitive to this, as I said, because of the way some
third-party vendors got upset as "their" features were added to AutoCAD. I'm
sure it's upsetting to them; but on the other hand, it's unrealistic to expect
that new features wouldn't be added when they can. Hopefully, things will
continue to heat up in the 3DS market, and you'll be forced to incorporate all
existing IPAS ideas into the main product within the next two major
releases.<<<
That sounds like what Commodore did with AmigaDOS 2.0, and look how stuff like
AREXX boomed when every machine with 2.0 had AREXX.
No, I don't think that's comparable to what I described regarding how popular
IPAS-isms might be folded into future releases of 3DS. And I've never been
convinced that ARexx was actually used by the average user, although you're
right, it got a lot of press. I think it was because it was an easy and
relatively interesting and seemingly technical thing for people to write about.
We added ARexx support to InterChange almost three years ago, due to inane
customer clamor for it – I say "inane", because we never once received a
technical support call regarding that aspect of the product. With something as
fraught with potential screw-ups, I'dve thunk we'd receive dozens of calls
about it, if people were using it at all. I'm convinced they weren't.
John,
It just struck me what the key is to getting all the stuff we
want/need in this market driven society we live in:
1.) Excel at pro-sports, ask for big bucks and wait for the
owners to fold. Say you live in WI, do you think the Brew Crew will
be here in 5years? I wouldn't give Vagas odds. Maybe this sports
lottery?
2.) Arrive at NAB with a bucket full of coinhs and park down
in front of the nickle slots.
Wanna guess which route I'm going to try!? 🙂 Sad thing is that it
will put me back a few weeks any any new IPAS stuff!!
>> We've seen similar conflicts arise in the AutoCAD market, no? Some
version of AutoCAD is missing a feature, a third party develops an
add-on to deliver it, then Autodesk determines they need that feature
to compete, so they develop their own similar feature as a built-in
to the product. So when you beg Autodesk to "fold in" the features
of certain IPAs routines, you're going to affect all those nice
IPAS-making companies. 🙂 <<
I'm sports-illiterate, so I think wasting 20% of every newscast and newspaper
on sports is awful enough – I voted "no" on the lottery even though I'm rather
libertarian – I'd rather see them allow private citizens to run lotteries, I
don't see why the state should run them, especially for stadiums. "We'd lose
sports dollars." What? All those people will just throw their money in the
street? No, they'll spend it on something else, or heaven forbid, save it.
So you're going to NAB? I'm on the 5 pm Saturday Midwest Express, back Tuesday
midnight on the red-eye.
PMJI,
>>> – I voted "no" on the lottery <<<
Me too! Actually I think the States are just jealous that they can't get their
hands on the Indian Casino Money! I'm all for the Indians Running their
Casino's but I don't think that any State of Federal government should be
running any kind of organized gambling. That just makes for too much of it!
Besides giving a politician money is like offering to foot a drunkards bar
bill!.
LaTER!
Murph'
Hi John. PMJI,
->"For example, if lens flares became the rage after one release of
3DS, and then a company came out with a very nice lens flare package
and all those clamoring for lens flares bought that, then "lens
flares" might not pop up on the next wish list."
Lens flares….
In the last few months I think I've seen at least 10 lens-flares a
day. Aside from working in the gaming industry, I see them on TV and
in magazines everywhere. Almost every new 3D-oriented game I see uses
it extensively. It's almost a requirement– [some high-powered game
executive talking] "We got 10 new products coming out this fall and
they all better have lens flares!". Wow.
What's the deal? Does blasting a stock flare effect over every
light-emitting object in the scene make it "cool"?
Perhaps we should all consider having 50mm lenses permanently mounted
in our eye sockets, so we can see this effect *all* the time. Perhaps
LensFX might mature into a stand-alone package, creating an entirely
new category of art, Lens Flare Art. How about building lens effects
right into the render dialogue of 3DS next to the RENDER button? Like
an AUTOLNSFX button.
Whoops… sorry, but your comments sparked an all-points optical
effects rant.. 🙂
-Heinz.
Hello Heinz
Good point on the over use of whatever the effect of the hour is. I
especially enjoyed the part about putting lenses on our eyes. Ive actually
heard folks talk about lens flares as a "realistic" effect when it really just
emulates the a camera lenses flaws. About like saying B+W photos look
realistic. The point to me is not about any one effect ( Im considering lensfx
for its abstract possibilities ) but on the herding ( or is it flocking? )
instincts of the clients who demand one "just like that one".
Ed
Hi Edward,
->"The point to me is not about any one effect ( Im considering lensfx for its
abstract possibilities ) but on the herding ( or is it flocking? ) instincts of
the clients who demand one "just like that one"."
Right, don't get me wrong… I think LensFX looks like a really nice piece of
software. I'm actually looking forward to seeing some new flares that don't
conform to the stock photoshop look.
I think that clients in general have too much say about the final art. I think
that clients as a whole should just contribute to a globabl art "fund". Then we
artists just kick back and design our best work which goes into a large art
pool. The clients then have to fight over who gets what and the winner pays an
inordinately huge fee directly to the artist. That way overall art quality
stays high and the artstream doesn't get clogged up with alot of mindlessly
generated gunk.
🙂
-Heinz.
I agree wholeheartedly. It's getting as silly as those little specular
highlight / firecracker fuse "spooeys" that dance along the edge of flying
logos. But what the client wants, the client gets…
Perhaps we should build up a list of other real-world optical defects that
might anticipate the next rush of IPAS routines: the "vaseline on the lens"
IPAS, the "schmutz on the lens" IPAS, the "index finger over lens" IPAS, the
"cheap lens" IPAS, the "shakey camera" IPAS, the "earthquake" IPAS, the
"drooping tripod" IPAS, the "JPEG/MPEG artifact" IPAS.
I'm sure the Pyros group has done at least one of these, haven't they? 🙂
John,
>> the "shakey camera" IPAS <<
I've done a "shakey-cam" with inappropriately-slow-shutter-speed technique, but
it's not an IPAS. Just a combination of KF and video post techniques to
simulate poor camera work.
How about the "lens cap over the lens" IPAS?
(Heck… it's an easy one. <g>)
– G
To change the subject, I was browsing the Jung seed catalog the other day, and
I came upon a headline for the "Jostaberry," a cross between a gooseberry and a
black currant. It caught my eye because the sub-head said "Say Yost-a-berry"
or something like that. Is this another of your inventions? 🙂 Is there
garden space on Balboa?
>> "Say Yost-a-berry" or something like that. Is this another of your
>> inventions? 🙂 Is there garden space on Balboa?
John, I also noticed a Yost Candy Company recently. We can't get away from
this guy!!! <g>
There's a popular women's clothes store in Madison called Yost's, too. Now we
know where he's investing all that 3DS and IPAS cash. 🙂 There must be a
"Yost's Hawaiian Shirt Store" someplace, too.
<Yost Candy Company> <ROFL> once you bite through the chocolate layer, you hit
a GLOWED wireframe with Lens Flare. And the center, WOW, skinned GOOIE (GUI)
with Noise_2.SXP. j
John
Jung Seed catalogue? Yost is not the only one to jump into a different
field. I can see the
great Psychdude Psychoanalyzing his plants, a wheat stalk between his teeth.
Hi John,
->"It's getting as silly as those little specular highlight / firecracker fuse
"spooeys" that dance along the edge of flying logos."
'Spooeys'? That's a good name for them. Your list of the next generation of
lens ipas really killed me. Don't forget the "No Film in Camera" ipas that
*doesn't* save to disk.
-Heinz.
<<…the "JPEG/MPEG artifact" IPAS.>>
the "red eyes" IPAS, "family portrait with cousin sticking up two fingers in
peace sign over grandma's head" IPAS, "really bad driver's licence mug shot"
IPAS, "1001 shots of the mating habits of the cuckoo bird" IPAS, "Happy snaps
of the 6 week summer holiday in the Shady Lane Caravan Park" IPAS, "Stark naked
baby photos shown at 21st birthday by mother to closest friends" IPAS.
That should pretty well cover everyone's tastes.
DaviD "Stop, you'll make me blush" GouID
Heck, why stop with snapshot camera silliness, what we need are entire meshes
to replicate artschool, photo major, intro to photography images.
Let's see, "my nude girlfriend", "myself in a mirror", "my dormroom", "random
flash of people in a dark room at a party (not drunk)", and the same scene but
taken drunk.
Special f/x are neat, but let's make it easier for people to get over the fear
of "what to create".
Heinz,
The lens flare code in Photoshop was written originally by John Knoll,
co-author of Photoshop and and ILM special effects supervisor ("Baby's Day
Out," "Star Trek Generations." He wrote the code for a matte painting scene in
Spielberg's "Hook." Since then, he has (half-jokingly) suggested that he
should've patented it.
— Jon
Hi Jon,
->"Since then, he has (half-jokingly) suggested that he should've patented it."
The royalties from Babylon 5 alone would probably have paid his retirement. <g>
-Heinz.
>The lens flare code in Photoshop was written originally by John Knoll,
co-author of Photoshop and and ILM special effects supervisor ("Baby's Day
Out," "Star Trek Generations." He wrote the code for a matte painting scene in
Spielberg's "Hook." Since then, he has (half-jokingly) suggested that he
should've patented it.<
And ILM should've patented the morph as well.