#Maybe, just maybe hope?
53 messages in this thread
I got this post from my local Amiga dealers BBS this morning:
*************
Following is a re-print of a fax sent to CBM dealers on Saturday April
30th., 1994 from Creative Equipment International of Miami, Florida. CEI is
one of the, if not The largest distributors of Amiga Hardware and peripherals
in the U.S.A.
The fax addresses CBM's announcement of liquidation dated
April 29, 1994 at 4:10 pm…
IMPORTANT NEWS
Dear Dealer,
As we have been expecting, Commodore International filed for
liquidation in order to be protected from it's creditors Friday April 29, 1994
at 4:10 pm. Commodore's official statement follows:
"Commodore International Limited announced today that it's Board of Directors
has authorized the transfer of it's assets to trustees for the benefit of it's
creditor and has placed it's major subsidiary, Commodore Electronics Limited,
into voluntary liquidation. This is the initial phase of an orderly
liquidation of both companies, which are incorporated in the Bahamas, by the
Bahamas Supreme Court."
This action does not affect the wholly-owned subsidiaries which include
Commodore Business Machines (USA), Commodore Business Machines LTD (CANADA),
Commodore/Amiga (UK), Commodore Germany, etc. Operations will continue
normally.
CEI has been working closely with Commodore's management and major
investors to find a resolution to the current financial crisis. Commodore's
actions now clear the way for PROGRESS to be made.
In the next few weeks CEI will be making a number of important
announcements.
CEI currently has sufficient Amiga inventory to meet expected demand
until manufacturing can be resumed. All our policies remain intact, full
service and support will continue. If you have any questions or concerns
please contact your CEI representative.
Please assure your customers that this event should be seen in the
positive light. What if… better support, better products, marketing, prices
etc. all arose from the ashes. Stay tuned…
President, CEI
Anyone heard anything in regards to this?
Jim
Sounds like a reasonable attempt to stop unnecessary phone calls. Hey, now that
C= is dead, all those developers who constantly tantalized us with hints of
what was going on in the experimental Amiga kitchen can come clean… were they
really working on an A5000?
This doesn't make sense. If CIL goes don't the national companies go with
it?
Interesting….
Bob Comer — Cruising the nets on Autopilot!
Cheyenne, Wyoming U.S.A.
My dealer hear about this and made a call to CEI they read the
announcement over the phone to him and later sent him the fax about noon
today (Saturday EST).
The question is, since Commodore Business Machines (USA), Commodore
Business Machines LTD (CANADA), Commodore/Amiga (UK), Commodore Germany,
etc. are wholly-owned subsidiaries, how many parts are there to this
company, who owns what, and what part of this debt is theirs?
Hayward
>> The question is, since Commodore Business Machines (USA), Commodore
>> Business Machines LTD (CANADA), Commodore/Amiga (UK), Commodore Germany,
>> etc. are wholly-owned subsidiaries, how many parts are there to this
>> company, who owns what, and what part of this debt is theirs?
The subsidiaries don't owe anything. How much does your car owe on your house?
In this case like your car, if you go bankrupt because you couldn't pay your
mortgage, they take the car and sell it. If the value is higher parting it
out, than driving it, it gets parted out.
Sounds like major bs to me. If CBM US,UK, etc. are wholly owned subsidiaries,
then they are assets of the parent companies being liquidated, and they will be
liquidated as well. How can operations "continue normally" when they're going
to be liquidated?
CEI clearly wants to be able to sell its Amiga inventory, so it's urging its
dealers to foist off a bunch of "what if's" and nebulous claims of "major
announcements", and "future resumption of manufacture", on prospective
customers. /exit
I agree it sounds kinda weak that C= UK could continue. The creditors would be
a little upset if the only part of C= that had value was not sold. After all,
it is a "wholly owned" subsidiary. It's a price of property, with value, which
must be sold.
I think all will become clear within a week.
I do wonder who the "unnamed" other company was though? I wonder if they
bought something or are just there to help manage the sell off.
Oh well.
—- Andrew
But could an entire subsidiary (IE: C=UK) be sold off, while C=US was
disected?
There is a million possible scenario's as to how the creditors get their
$$$$'s, and what "our" world may look like when it's done.
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Clap On! <clap clap> Clap Off! <clap cla{%& NO CARRIER
"There is a million possible scenario's as to how the creditors get their
$$$$'s, and what "our" world may look like when it's done."
Not really. Most of the answers will be in the Commodore annual report which
should show and define the corporate structure and whether or not any part of
Commodore survives as a standalone entity. If everything is a wholly-owned
subsidiary, any of the units surviving on their own is a very improbable
scenario.
In terms of how the creditors get whatever money they can, that's pretty cut
and dried: 1) all the assets are appraised to determine their likely market
value, 2) the claims of secured creditors against specific property are
processed (this probably means all the real property, all the inventory, all
the parts and supplies, all the patent rights, all the accounts receivable and
everything else), 3) if any assets remain, they will be auctioned off, 4)
proceeds of the auction are distributed to the secured creditors against their
balances, if any, and the remainder to unsecured creditors, and 5) if anything
remains, the proceeds are distributed to the shareholders.
Under normal lending terms, secured creditors take a collateral interest in
everything, absolutely everything, value not withstanding. If I understand
things correctly, a bank owned by Gould or Gould himself was the last to
advance Commodore funds. Depending on the lending agreement, this could make
Gould the strongest secured creditor or among the weakest.
It is also possible that the secured creditors will agree to an auction with
the proceeds being distributed between them. Private sales of selected parts of
the estate are also possible.
I kind of doubt if you'll see anyone making an "Amiga" again, although
licensees or new owners of some or all of the technology may wind up making
dedicated machines for their own purposes (i.e., NewTek).
Jerry
>>5) if anything remains, the proceeds are distributed to the
shareholders.<<
You just told me in two previous posts that wasn't true.
From a marketing perspective, an Amiga, per se, would be a stupid venture.
I do not feel, however, that a machine which is Amiga compatible is an
unrealistic possibility.
Thanks for the breakdown in bankruptcy procedures. It has really
enlightened me as to how a previous employer of mine tried to screw his
way out of debt. It didn't work however, but it has managed to stall my
ability to get my paycheck out of him!
Later
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Clap On! <clap clap> Clap Off! <clap cla{%& NO CARRIER
According to an interview given by Alwin Stumpf (Managing Director of Commodore
Germany) to the magazine "PC Magazine" last week (and i roughly translate) :
Business is profitable in Germany, England & Italy. We can fulfill our
obligations even if the US operations cease.
He also said that negotiations have been going on for some time with several
potential investors. Investors from the computer industry are less likely, as
they are only interested in the Commodore technology and not the continuation
of the business as such. "Institutional investors are showing much more
interest" he said.
Stumpf said that is an investor can be found by the end of June with $ 50 mio,
then Commodore would be orientated principally in the consumer sector –
whenever Commo had concentrated on this sector they had done well (he said).
(My opinion) : It is not over yet by any means for Commo in Europe. With 88% of
sales outside the USA (most of which being in Europe) the demise of Commo USA
need not make too much difference in Europe. I believe he speaks the truth when
he says that negotiations with potential investors are continuing. I expect
Commo Europe to be formed out of the individual european Commo companies. I
also expect it to be owned principally by venture capital investors , perhaps
also a German bank, and for management to take over a small % of the shares. I
believe that Stumpf really believes that Commo can be saved in Europe and is
prepared to back this up with actions.
The CD32 as the most consumer-orientated product still has a future !!
STILL committed to the Amiga
Regards
Richard
GTI GmbH
Richard,
I hope for all of us, you are right.
Juergen (via Amiga AutoPilot from Germany)
Well, that's good news for you guys… what about us? The thought if a
"forced" relationship with Windows makes me SICK!
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Clap On! <clap clap> Clap Off! <clap cla{%& NO CARRIER
The wording of the C= announcement was interesting. Only Commodore
Electronics Ltd is being immediately liquidated. The Commodore
International Ltd assets are being transferred to trustees. This could
mean the the various "wholly owned" subsidiaries are being transferred as
operating companies to the unnamed trustees. It would up to the trustees
as to whether continued operation or liquidation of the subsidiaries made
more financial sense for the creditors.
Jeff Schweiger
> The wording of the C= announcement was interesting. Only
> Commodore Electronics Ltd is being immediately liquidated.
I agree. I think the next few days will tell. They have to inform the
shareholders I would imagine as to what they are doing.
—- Andrew
What exactly is CEL and what does it own/control?
Paul – Minus Pins!
CIL is basically the parent holding company. CEL is a manufacturing
company, owned by CIL.
Oh. So much for hope then. If the manufacturing company is liquidated
there'll be no way to make new Amigas.
Paul – Minus Pins!
Why? I mean, doesn't a computer manufacturer just assemble the parts these
days? I thought all parts in the Amiga were from the Far East or Latin
American? Would an assembly shop be very expensive to set up from scratch?
> Why? I mean, doesn't a computer manufacturer just assemble the
> parts these days? I thought all parts in the Amiga were from the
> Far East or Latin American? Would an assembly shop be very
> expensive to set up from scratch?
Very expensive. In the last four years the computer industry has undergone a
revolution of how machines are built. Putting things together by hand requires
cheap far-east labor (and still costs too much). Putting them together by
machines requires an expensive investment of equipment.
Either way, who would fab the custom chips? Someone would have to invest the
money to buy the rights to AGA and the other things unique to the Amiga. Then
they would have to set up manufactoring etc. That will cost money.
I see a tiny chance that someone like NewTek might build Amigas just to sell
Toasters. These would be blackbox Amigas purely to support Toaster stuff.
They would not want to sell general purpose computers.
However more likely, NewTek will look at how to become more portable in the
future.
I don't even think CD-32 will surive, although it has the biggest chance of the
entire line.
—- Andrew
Oh well. Browsing thru the local paper (Honolulu Advertiser) I see an ad from
Computer City for Crapintosh Classic II's for $699 (complete system). Gads,
does it rrreally have to come to this?
>>Then they would have to set up manufactoring etc.<<
Andrew,
All of the manufacturing tooling and the distribution system is in place
for anyone (or group of anyone's) to takeover. They will likely takeover
themselves if they can afford to.
Garry,
as I understand it, CBM was one of the few manufacturing firms that
has/had an in-house chip manufacturing firm. IBM similiarly has one. So,
if CEL is gone, who is going to make the Agnus, Denise, and such that CEL
made?
The Four Seasons of Southern California:
Fire, Flood, Earthquake, and Riot.
Hmmmmmmm……………
I just posted a message to a guy who offered use of his garage (lol)
Commodore's chip fab sucks gophers through a garden hose.
MOS was pretty good stuff when C= bought it and renamed it CSG.
It hasn't been upgraded in aeons. It is so out of date that it can't even
produce old chips in an economical fashion. It can't produce AA at all,
much less AAA.
Dale L. Larson R360: You hit 23 Enemy Virtua Formula: 1/8
Intangible Assets Manufacturing AS-1: Most qualified
Dale,
thanks. I wasn't aware of that, although I did notice that quite a few
chips in my A2000 are made by them. That probably explains the quirkiness
of my machine <weg>.
The Four Seasons of Southern California:
Fire, Flood, Earthquake, and Riot.
CBM's fabs could make washing machine CPUs, no? It's all still 2-3 micron,
right?
>Commodore's chip fab sucks gophers through a garden hose.
Couldn't have said it better myself. 🙂
Anyone need some two micron NMOS chips!? <G>
>>Oh. So much for hope then.<<
Paul,
No… that doesn't have anything to do with it. That is just the corporate
structure. With the proper licenses and agreements, anyone could make an
Amiga. I hereby donate the use of my garage.
So when do I report to work, boss?
Hey, I'm just donating the SPACE… I'm not running anything.
You still gotta get with the plant manager in the Phillipines… he's gotta
coordinate business moves for all his employees to your garage.
Maybe. Maybe not. CEI has been pretty up-front (at least with me) about the
Commodore situation all along. However, you do have a valid concern. They may
just be protecting their own interests.
I wonder what the other distributors (MicroSphere, MicroPace) have to say on
the subject.
My dealings with CEI have been pretty good in the past. Since my company,
Advanced Computers, just placed a large order with them a few days ago, I hope
their optimism is well founded.
THE JEDI RETURNS…..Luke I'm your father.
Yea, with our luck it would be Bill Gates under that helmet!
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Clap On! <clap clap> Clap Off! <clap cla{%& NO CARRIER
This looks like a brazen attempt to mislead dealers and the public so that
CEI can get rid of all their stock without being left holding the bag
(full of unwnated machinery!)
As I understand it, the national companies are wholly owned subsidiaries
of CIL. They are theirfore, part of the assets of CIL and subject to
liquidation. Either I am COMPLETELY wet on this relationship, or CEI's
president is blowing some major smoke.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Well, it is so nice to hear from a realist/pragmatist in the midst of this
heart-rending news. (read – you are a pessimist who is bent on destroying
whatever last vestiges of hope we have for a miraculous event to occur on
Monday.) We are blind men in a dark room looking for a black cat right now –
until the last nail is hammered into the Amiga coffin, it will remain, however
unlikely or improbable, a possibility that the torch will be carried on… I
for one will continue to hope until the coffin is sealed and covered with dirt.
Then, and not before, shall I be ready to move on.
As I said, you've got a bout a year of decient support, then it will fall
off rapidly. Having been involved in the manufacture of computers, I know
what lead-times, certification processes, design and test all involve. I
know how expensive that gets. I look at the only people that would be
interested in keeping the Amiga computer alive for the sake of the Amiga
computer. Guess what! Those folks (NewTek, UU, Scala, GVP) don't have
enough money together, to even get a foot in the door to take over the
operations of design, manufacture and world-wide distribution of a
personal computer that is not RISC, NT, or any of the buzz words that
would make it marketable on a mass scale.
As for being a realist – I have to be. My business is based on Amigas. I
now have about 8 months evaluate and locate suitable replacments and about
6 months after that to get them in place. I could be like you and let
ridiculous emotions dictate an ostrich approach and end up in very serious
position (read unable to compete) bythis time next year…
Home users don't have the porblem. You guys can ride it till it drops. I
have competition and demands of increased productivity that cannot be met
by a line of machines that has died out. There will be no A5000, ADos 4.x
etc. A hobbyist satisfied with what the machine does for him now can live
with it and love it for years to come- until it breaks and there are no
parts around. But I can garuntee, anybody with a business based on Amigas
will be starting the search for an eventual replacment to grow with the
business tomorrow at 9:00 A.M.
wmc – via Autopilot!
If that's the case I feel sorry for those IBM people who use the
amiga to promote the ibm.
Wayne,
I know numorous people who run their businesses on XT's even more on
AT's (a whole lot more than 486's and Pentiums). They did not suffer when
Intell stopped prduction of the chips and IBM and Compaq forgot about
them. You are looking at things from the point of viewof someone who
sells the machines, which is in a vast minority of the people who use
them.
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
You said it, Steve. It's rather sad that the PC and Mac magazines have
written off any hardware that's more than about a year old. You got a 286?
You won't read anything about it in PC magazine, or even PC Novice, for
that matter. Heck, the whole idea in that market is that if you don't at
least have a 486 you're a loser and deserve your fate. It's the American
(marketers') dream of keeping up with the Joneses.
" But I can garuntee, anybody with a business based on Amigas
will be starting the search for an eventual replacment to grow with the
business tomorrow at 9:00 A.M."
No doubt about that.
Jerry
You, sir, have poor manners at times, although I do respect your logic. May I
suggest a refresher in etiquette? You have a valid point, but I do wonder how
you manage to stay in business these days without taking the huge risks your
competitors who stay in the Amiga business must have taken in the past and
shall again in the future… I thought the big payoffs in the business world
came to the big risktakers?
Agreed. The business user has to keep pace or loose out. (Ask Detroit about
letting things fall too far behind.)
The home user can use it till it drops. If you don't mind using the software
for years to come, there is no problem. I still have a Kaypro 10, that I still
use with WordStar 3.3 from time to time. (It works,. it's convenient, it's
hooked to a daisywheel printer, and I still remember how to operate the
software. Also it's worthless as far as monitary value, so there is no sense
selling it.)
>I can guarantee, anybody with a business based on Amigas will be starting
the search for an eventual replacement to grow with the business tomorrow
at 9:00 A.M.
Gosh, how has Creative Equipment managed to keep their doors open
without your _brilliant_ business acumen?… Hey, maybe you should send
your resume down to Miami, and one to Topeka Kansas while you're at it;
why, you should be worth millions to them….
Wayne –
Only CEL was announced to be immediately liquidated. CIL's assets are to
be transferred to unnamed trustees. While the likely scenario is that the
national companies will also be liquidated, that scenario is not what was
announced. Ownership of those companies is to be transferred to the
trustees. It's up to them what happens next.
Jeff Schweiger
What that means is that the national companies have to get rid of the last
batch of hardware produced by the factories and already in the
wharehouses. Basically, someone has to stay behind to sell the light
fixtures…(so Irv baby can get his loans back…)
wmc – via Autopilot!