Hacked!
54 messages in this thread
I am really ticked at NewTek! My dealer has 10 system 3.0 boards for the 2000
and he cannot sell one to me because NewTek is trying to hoard the bucks by
forcing me to go through them on a power-up program. Meanwhile, someone who
has not spent a red cent on a Toaster can waltz in and pick one up for what I
paid for mine 1.5 years ago and be up and running while I steam.
I find it ironic that I (a former paying customer) have to take a back seat to
people who are not paying customers. It hurts me. It hurts the local merchant.
And eventually, IT WILL HURT NewTek. If someone had the same performance on
another board with better service and consideration, NewTek would be gone in
six months. Too bad there is no real competition right now. Too bad indeed.
Jim Roof (wishing for a Video MicroWave)
I'm not sure I see your point. Is there a significant price difference between
NewTek's upgrade path, and what your dealer do? If anything, NewTek's "upgrade"
pricing seems to be oriented to encourage people to buy a new Toaster and keep
their old one.
The problem is that my dealer cannot do the "trade the old board in" method
that NewTek has said will be an option. Ie., NewTek is hoarding all business
to themselves except for outright new purchases.
Jim Roof
I still don't get it. Is there some price differential between these two
methods that you haven't explained? Is there some part of NewTek's trade-in
program that was misleading? I'm not ragging at you, I'm very curious about
your reaction to their trade-in program, that's all. From what you've said so
far, all I can tell is that you wanted to trade in your old card through your
dealer, not NewTek – but NewTek's program requires you to work directly with
NewTek.
The only thing bothering me is the fact that dealer's who already have the
product are NOT being allowed to accept 2.0 boards for trade-in. The dealers
as of 6/25 have no idea as to whether they will even be allowed to broker the
trade-in program. Meanwhile, folks who have never purchased a Toaster system
can get what I need on the street.
I know you're not ragging me. I just think that NewTek should enable the
dealer to do the deal, plain and simple.
BTW, I convinced my dealer to take my board in on trade. I now have the 4000
board in my 2000 and this is now, for my part, a moot issue!
Jim Roof
I think NewTek is making the upgrades go through them so they don't have 100's
of dealers sending back Toaster boards. I don't know what upgrade path you
were planning on taking but NewTek is not doing it to screw you. The $1799
upgrade price is cheaper than dealer cost, and you get to keep your old
Toaster. I don't consider that getting screwed.
You have to understand that service is counting more and more in business. You
are right when talking dollars and cents, but not when doing an honest
evaluation of service policy.
Jim Roof
Yes, it is designed to encourage currnt owners to keep their old Toaster
and go for the most expensive upgrade they offer.
I have no problem with that.
What _I_ have a problem with is the fact that they announced the product
over a month ago, and said it would be shipping by Mid-May, then by June
1, now it's always 'next week'!
I am going to have a new 4000 in my office in the next few days, but I'll
be dammed if I have ANY idea when NewTek is going to bother to support the
people who've supported them for the last 2 years.
I've done alot of good publicity for the Toaster, have _always_ been a
Toaster evangelist, and even did the cover of the July '93 AmigaWorld
magazine using LightWave2.0 (and gave it credit!)
And now, like Jim says, Joe Pinhead can walk in and get one off the shelf
and be Toasting in hours! What do current owners get? Squat, that's what!
I understand Jim's annoyance and empathize with him greatly. (My clients
would sure benefit from the new Toaster effects too, but _noooooo_, only
first time buyers get the benefits of the T4000 right now!)
Frankly, I thought they'd learned about pre-announcing a product, only to
miss the shipping date. . .It's not very professional to leave people
hanging like this.
Keep On Toastin' (?!?)
Erik Flom
So what's the real-world price difference between upgrading direct to NewTek
(whenever they get around to it) and walking into the dealer to buy a new card?
Are we talking about $200 or $2000? Obviously, they want to sell to new
customers first.
Well, it hasn't been officially announced but people who upgrade will be
saving between $1000-1500.
Assuming that a current owner can get a new Toaster board, and new s/w for
his old board for $1800 through NewTek, and it would cost $3100 ($2300 for
T4000, $800 for upgrade to old Toaster s/w) to get the same setup, the
saving is about $1300. (Of course, this also means you have an old Toaster
board, but at least it can be used as a rendering station….)
Obviously they want to make the new customers happy.
It's just unfortunate that those who have long supported the platform (in
the face of stiff abuse) are being sent to the back of the bus. :^(
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Yes, for $1800 you can get the new Toaster card (different in significant ways
from the old card) plus the new software (naturally). That's cheaper than most
people paid for their first Toaster card. Stiff abuse? For a device with a
dealer network and at least one magazine dedicated to it? If that's "stiff",
then how do you characterize the rest of the devices for the Amiga?
"Wilderness?"
I _didn't_ use the term stiff abuse.
I just don't like the fact that now that they've got me hooked, they'll
keep me hanging until they can get some other new junkies hooked to their
'machine'!
I'm trying to keep my business going, and it doesn't help when NewTek does
its best to ignore me.
(Maybe I'll just use Real 3-D next time I'm asked to do a magazine
cover!)
I don't give a hoot whether you think I'm justified or not.
(I've never complained about the cost, ONLY the availability, and the
continual promises that it would be shipping 'next week'!)
BTW, IBM has a dealer network too, see where it got them?
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Ah, just what I thought: it always comes down to a personal desire for new
hardware, uncontrolled by reason. 🙂 Trying to keep your business going?
How's the Toaster 4000 going to help do that? Why, I have one right here, and
I still have too much to do and too little time to do it. Just the other day
someone wanted to borrow my T4000 because he'd promised a client an effect
that's only (automatically) possible under the new LightWave. Another
hardware/software casualty. If the T4000 is truly necessary for your business
survival, then I encourage you to run out and buy one immediately.
J. Foust,
Since you 1) have a Toaster 4000 and 2) seem knowledgeable I thought I'd take
a chance and ask you a question. I live in the boonies, probably 1 hour minimum
(closer to two) from the nearest Amiga Dealer let alone Toaster Dealer. If one
was going to buy a Toaster 4000 would they do it through NewTek? What is its
approximate/average cost? Thanks, John P.S. Do you know if the T4000 works in a
3000?
Actually, I don't know the answers to all those questions. I got a T4000
because my company licenses software to NewTek, the loaders for LightWave that
handle foreign file formats. That's the reason I've got one!
Ok Thanks anyway! Thought it was worth a try. I got half the answer already &
the rest shouldn't be very hard to find out! John
Thanks for your support.
Too bad, I spent the money I saved and got your product instead!
(Hope it was worth it!)
BTW, YES, my desire _is_ 'uncontrolled by reason'!
You can smugly say that while _you've_ got a T4000. Have Fun!
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
I knew you'd appreciate my "support" of your addiction. 🙂 I've got a T4000,
but I hardly get to use it. Story of my life: all these toys, and I spend my
days worrying about the bits and bytes of their file formats.
RE:I'm trying to keep my business going, and it doesn't help when NewTek does
its best to ignore me.
I hope you were not putting anything off waiting for Toaster 4000? You would
be in the same boat as all these dreamers waiting for those darn Opal Modules
for the last 9 months.
No, my problem is that I'm sitting here with a brand new 4000, and no
toaster to put in it.
I made my decisions based on what their sales department told me over 2
months ago. (You can lame me for trusting NewTek, ut they told me "they'd
learned their lesson" about pre-announcing products. I foolishly thought
they had.)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
RE: BTW, IBM has a dealer network too, see where it got them?
Yeah, Micro Channel, OS/2, PC Jr, etc. I'm sure you don't think NewTek is the
first company to miss a ship date by a few weeks, eh?
RE: I don't give a hoot whether you think I'm justified or not.
(I've never complained about the cost, ONLY the availability, and the
continual promises that it would be shipping 'next week'!)
Some people will always find something to complain about.
RE:Obviously they want to make the new customers happy.
It's just unfortunate that those who have long supported the platform (in
the face of stiff abuse) are being sent to the back of the bus. :^(
Sort of like Commodore has always done with the PowerUp deals? Relax man you
can live until it comes!
I consider all this griping has to be coming from the huge thirst people have
for the new version of Lightwave. A couple of weeks here or there won't make
to much of a difference after everyone starts using their for a week.
I guess one magazine cover isn't enough to be put on the NewTek elite list with
John Gross, Ron Thornton, etc. 😉
Jim, Apparently, you are not alone in feeling annoyed with this situation.
NewTek has received a significant number of telephone calls from Toaster owners
who want Toaster 4000 now. NewTek's position, as I understand it, is this:
1. Initial shipments must go to dealers who have been dying on the vine since
Toaster 4000 was announced at NAB in April.
2. NewTek will not distribute upgrade information until they have built up
sufficient inventory to satisfy the anticipated demand.
They're in the process of building inventory and setting up the customer
support infrastructure and should be sending out upgrade notices within the
next week to ten days (the time frame is speculation on my part). I hope you
can hold on…
JP
I understand the thinking there. I feel frustrated that I can go out right now
and pay for a new card and software for my 2000 but I cannot do the tradeup
option until some unspecified point in time and even then it is dubious as to
whether I can work with my dealer or incur further delay by delivery.
Jim, I know that running a business is tough and nobody can satisfy all the
people all of the time. All NewTek has to do is tell the dealers that it's OK
to take 2.0 boards in on trade for the same deal that NewTek will offer when
they get around to it. MY DEALER WANTS TO DO THE DEAL! He can't until NewTek
says its fine. This would serve him (he is cash starved right now) and me.
Thanks for your reply.
Jim Roof
The problem with your plan is that if NewTek allows dealers to take
Toaster 2's on the trade up plan soon dealers won't have any to sell. As I
understand it Toaster 4000's are in pretty scarce supply these days.
Suppose a dealer gets 5 of the new Toasters on Monday and first thing
Tuesday morning he has 10 previous Toaster owners there wanting to upgrade
to the new hardware. What's he supposed to do? Tell half of them to leave?
Call NewTek and ask for more? (There's a supply shortage)
What about his new customers who've had their Toasters on order since they
were announced at NAB?
What about the dealers profits? Do you thing he's going to make as much
acting as an upgrade broker as he is selling new Toasters?
When NewTek starts letting dealers do the upgrade deal it's got to be the
same for every dealer. That's just not a workable solution until supply
catches up with demand.
Everything you mention is solvable at the sole discretion of NewTek. They are
the ones who control dealer profit. They could make it plausible for the
upgrade to go through dealer channels. BTW, my dealer had 10 4000 boards and he
WANTED to sell one to me with NewTek's blessing. He couldn't.
NewTek should just hold off shipping new T4000s and upgrades til there are
enough to go go around… Then on one glorious day, all the orders could be
efficiently handled by NewTek's huge staff.
Is that the huge sales department or the huge order entry department?
yes!
If you're still a little cheesed about having to wait to get the upgrade,
try looking at it this way; You're lucky to get ANY kind of an upgrade
deal on your hardware! Try to think of a piece of hardware on the Mac or
IBM that has any trade in value when the new version of the hardware is
released. Most companies just tell you to sell your old board and buy the
new one.
I've got a 2 year old VCR. Sony won't give me a nickel on a trade in. :^(
I think NewTek is being VERY generous with their upgrade plan.
My dealer would love to do upgrades. The basic problem here is that
NewTek announced the T4000 to soon, and we all knew it. After NAB my
dealer did not want to sell a non T4000 because that would be bad
business. Would a new user understand that in a few months his toaster
would be outdated and the dealer knew it? So NewTek has no choice but to
supply dealers first.
So we wait and hope that by the time it is our turn, C= will have a tower
ready & a tower/T4000 power-up program – yeah .. it's a dream I have ;-).
BTW what system are the dealers selling with T4000? System 2.0 or the
beta version of 3.0?
Joe Maulucci >>> Accadia Electronic Arts
DTV/DTP – Amiga Style!
What do you mean they have no choice? Ore more to the point, they missed their
chance to choose by feverishly hitting the NAB show with a product not yet
shipping. I know this happens all the time but the consequences remain the
same. The choice that satisfies all (except NewTek) would be to show the
product at the show. Make no promises as to availability. Assure the NEW
purchasers of 2.0 that the old Toaster owners would be treated preferentially
over non-Toaster owners, thus increasing the benefits of purchasing the 2.0
system. Backing that up, they should discount the 2.0 price to a level that
would not break the backs of new buyers and offer a TRADE-IN upgrade that makes
the 2.0 deal a wash as far as additional profits go.
Ie., they could havve hooked new owners with 2.0, then made 3.0 owners out of
them (and us) all at the same time. The dealers at least get their investment
out of the old boards sitting around.
BTW, I ended up swinging an independant trade with me dealer for the same price
as what it is rumoured NewTek will do.
On the delay of the new Toaster:
I, like all others planning to upgrade, am incredibly anxious to get the new
product. BUT, folks need to remember that Newtek is a BUSINESS, and for all our
sakes, we'd better hope that they make their marketing decisions based on
business logic, and not emotion. Companies that make decisions based on
emotion generally don't remain companies very long, and I'd personally rather
have them around to support my investment and improve it in the future.
With stocking their dealers first, they ARE making a business decision; i.e.,
they know that virtually every potential upgrade customer will upgrade, whether
it's now or 2 months from now. They also know that their dealers and
distributors exist in a VERY tough world whose players have a very short
lifespan. They work on tiny margins in an industry where technology quickly
renders their inventory obsolete, and makes their survival that much more
difficult.
Business logic dictates that they go after new customers first, rather than let
those new customers buy competing products. By doing that, they get the new
customers AND keep the old. If they flip the priorities, they may have a giddy
bunch of existing owners, but miss out a new group of buyers that's almost as
large as the entire existing customer base.
As for dealers handling trade-ins, that would be a logistical nightmare that
would be incredibly difficult and expensive to administer. They need a
specialized and central department set up to handle such feats.
On their early announcement of product: You may rest assured that their floor
space at NAB was booked and paid for LONG AGO, and chances are that they worked
feverishly to have the product ready. Would YOU have spent what was probably
hundreds of thousands of dollars to exhibit alongside your competitors, (which
is necessary for survival BTW), to get there and say "Uh, we have no idea when
it's gonna be ready…", or "We'd like to show you this great new product,
but since we don't know an exact shipping date, we're just gonna let all the
competition show you and sell you their stuff…" ?????
Chill out; everybody wants it; it'll get here.
Jerry
Awww, Jerry…Do you _have_ to be so rational?
I was having so much fun running around, wailing and bemoaning my horrid
fate! :^)
Yes, I understand their reasons, and they _are_ good business decisions.
Unfortunately, that does little to reduce my own impatience.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
10-4 on the lack of patience, Sir Erik….
Jerry
Erik,
AW – Aug '93 Issue – Back Cover – Ad for New Video Toaster 4000
Ah nothing like a new toy. Just think what you be doing with it.
Staying up all night, working with the new modler. Setting up yet
another animation run in lightwave. Getting more wows from the gane on
CIS. Why you'll be looked up to as "One who's got it!".
<— Yeap … we're Toaster Junkies.
Joe Maulucci >>> Accadia Electronic Arts
DTV/DTP – Amiga Style!
Ads don't do me much good…
I'm in touch with NewTek sales about twice a week now. As soon as they
take my money, I'll be a happy man.
Thanks,
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
I'll take your money, Eric! Will that make you happy? You can have my Toaster
and do stereo animations!
Very well stated, Jerry. I've been catching up with the forum since returning
from a trip to Disney World. And, you know, a trip to DW is an excellent
example of the motivations of a company to it's cliental.
Simply, a company must attact NEW customers all the time. Once they have your
money, then they will put you in a long line, usually its hot, and the other
"GUESTS" are reveling their inner self. You never, never see the lines on the
commercials or hand outs. Just happy people enjoying the park.
Same with (MANY, MOST, ALL, SOME) companies. This forum is probably monitored
by NewTek, but they really listen to the dealers who deliver the product to the
street. This is where the return on investment is the greatest. Upgrading
hardware and software makes some money, but it doesn't put gas in the corporate
jet. It keeps some old clients happy, and maybe, just maybe they'll buy a new
product at street prices….. Or, (in my case) will not. For every one that
leaves the fold, five are added. They are still ahead by four.
John,
I see you _perfectly_ understood my points about Newtek's handling of the
upgrade dilemma.
Jerry
Did you know that it takes four times more time to get a new customer than it
does to keep an old one? This is across-the-board in sales but is true
none-the-less. Quite frankly, I love to hear people talk like you do. They
are the best insurance I have in the making of my future prosperity.
While what you say is true, it's virtue lies only in the here-and-now and is
the primary reason that once-prosperous firms find themselves left in the dust
of a truly customer oriented competitor.
Jim,
Since John was referring to a post I made, I'll jump in here for clarification.
I'm certainly not suggesting that Newtek would be smart to abandon or neglect
existing customers, because that's obvious suicide for a company. This
discussion was strictly concerning newly released products.
Concerning support, I've had great experiences on the 2 or 3 times that I've
called Newtek tech support. I've always gotten through on the toll-free line
on the first call, and have always had my questions answered quickly and
correctly.
The point in my post was that when releasing a new product, the smart business
move is to first concentrate on expansion of the customer base, provided that
the existing owners aren't totally abandoned.
Jerry
Jerry,
I can understand what you are saying and agree with a good bit of it. All I
know is that NewTek's recent dealings with the T4000 have left a bad taste in a
number of mouths, mine included. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I
think that they could have made the transition much easier by being up front
and not making promises or allowing for the possibility of rampant untruths
about release dates, etc. Do you know that I have spoken with them 6 times in
the past month and four of those times were to get technical clarifications on
the differences of the upgrade paths (s/w or s/w;h/w)? Would you believe that
now, even though I have my T4000 in my 2000, I STILL DON'T REALLY KNOW what all
the advantages are of owning the new board! I asked and asked and got very
circumspect answers. I was specific about the number of frame buffers, about
alpha channel support on the 2000 (I'm not sure about that was their reply).
NewTek as a business is following the traits of a typical quick starter. They
have a good product, faulty lines of communication with their dealers and
distributors, an attitude that says "you can't get it anywhere else, so there",
and my somewhat tainted support. I love the thing but let's be frank, there
needs to be a bit more business savvy when it caomes to the tricky feat of
rolling out three different upgrade options simultaneously.
What was NewTek going to lose the new user base? There was a big push for
dealers to continue to sell the non-T4000, they refused. So would you
hold off sales until you had enought to supply everyone? Onced NAB
happened, who would not wait for the new product to show?
I am holding off, buying for the Amiga 4000 tower. Or Digital Creation's
Slot Box. In any case, I told that NewTek will be sending out tapes and
info by the second week of July to registered users.
Independent trades, are cool … I believe in supporting local dealers. I
had a claymation animation running at my dealer's … people kept going up
to it and saying "Boy that looks real 3D" … it was – REAL CLAY and
frames captured via toaster!
Happy Toast'n
Joe Maulucci >>> Accadia Electronic Arts
DTV/DTP – Amiga Style!
Jim,
So… last month when they told me the upgrade info had been sent to all
the NAB attendees whose cards were zipped, they were "stretching it" just
a little? And all this time I've been bad-vibin the post-lady… :^}
Actually, I was hoping hte pause was for the 4000 Tower or a significant
Toaster Paint upgrade.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Relax…The 'I gotta get it first' is going to pay more and probably find
the bugs that will be fixed in the second production run that will become
available to current owners via upgrades.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Well then OOPS! I traded my 2.0 system to a dealer for the new one. I think he
treated me very fairly, though I won't discuss that here. It was at a price
that I would have expected from NewTek, so I went for it.
Jim Rooof make that Roof
Well, the 'benchmark' is 2.0 + $1199 gets you a new board and software (at
least the last tiem numbers were quoted to me) and a A4000 discount coupon
of undisclosed value. As for the A2000 – A4000 swap value, who knows.
It's what makes you feel right, I guess.
Hows the cubic texture mapping? Nice? (Thats what I need most at the
moment).
wmc – via Autopilot!
That's basically the deal I got. This dealer has bailed me out on a number of
occasions and I really wanted to deal through him instead of factory direct. I
paid him a little extra for "installation".
BTW, if you have a 2000 with 1meg chip ram, you're gonna want to upgrade to 2m.
The switcher takes about 200k more with the 3.0 than 2.0 and some effects won't
load when the CG has a book loaded.
Jim
Jim,
Thanks for the warning. I've got the DKB 2meg ram chip and 20 meg
overall, so I hope I don't have too many problems with memory.
wmc – via Autopilot!