#CDTV, CD-I etc.
56 messages in this thread
As you probably know Commodore has been test marketing CDTV in the San
Francisco Bay Area. They have been running lots of TV and print ad's. As
far as I can see CDTV has generated very little interest. A number of
people have told me they have seen the ad on TV but simply didn't
understand what the product was about. Commodore has not been able to get
CDTV in to the big retailers, you have to go out of your way to find one.
Today I went into the Good Guys, one of the biggest audio/video dealers in
the area. What did I see as soon as I walked through the door? A Phillips
CD-I player. This was running some very impressive demos, they had a
knowledgeable sales person looking after it. The unit was getting a great
deal of interest, and not just from the kids. They had ad's for about 50
different titles, many of the same ones that are available for CDTV. The
unit was priced at $795.
This is the kind of promnotion Commodore have got to be able to give CDTV
or they can forget it. They have got to get it into these kind of stores.
The christmas buying season is key, and CD-I seem ready to go.
Some good news on the CDTV front, Tower Records now carry CDTV titles.
-=Martin=-
– via Whap!
Tandy has announced that they will be selling Memorex brandname CD-I
players this Christmas season in their 750 highest-volume Technology
Stores.
Kevin:
I confess that I doubted the CD-I folks would deliver, there has been talk
about it for years it seems but no product.
Well that's changed the product is shipping and I think CDTV is going to
find it tough out there. Forget about who is better, marketing clout could
well decide the outcome. Getting CD-I's into stores like Tandy counts. CD-I
companies seem to be able to do it, Commodore apparently can't.
It's much too early to predict a winner, even if they'll be a winner as
such. But it really amazed me just how much attention this machine was
getting in the store from just about everyone. CDTV can generate the same
interest it's just that the average consumer is not going to run into CDTV
players the way they will CD-I.
-=Martin=-
– via Whap!
No, it's not too early to predict a winner. CD-I is going to kick CDTV off
the face of the earth. That's a _prediction_ :^)
BEing a prediction, it should be taken with an entire saltshaker. But *I*
belive it.
Ben
"CD-I is going to kick CDTV off the face of the earth."
I'm glad you said that. Just last eve I was talking to another amiga
fanatic (good), discussing CD-I vs CDTV. I made the statement that 'CD-I
was going to bury CDTV.'. Faux pas! Later I found out he also sells CDTV
at a military base (good).
Anyway, while I like CDTV, Amiga, etc, I just don't see how Commodore is
going to compete with the 'big boys' on this. I wouldn't mind being proven
wrong though 🙂
–jp–seattle–
Nor would I. It has the potenttial to expand the AMiga market to a huge
size, something no serious Amiga developer would mind.
I just don't believe in CBM. CATs excepted, CBM is the worst thing that
ever happened to the machine.
Ben
Ben:
You could be right. They have started running print ad's for CD-I here.
Double page ad in the local papers. It is a great ad and very imformative.
I still can't get over Commodore's CDTV ad's. They were running an almost
full page ad for a while that managed to tell you absolutley nothing about
the product.
Commodore marketing flops again!
-=Martin=-
– via Whap!
Martin,
Yes, marketing clout will decide it: good demonstrations, knowledgeable
salespeople, mass availability, good advertising and lots of it, multiple
player models, brandname recognition…
Hmm. CDTV is about to become a collector's item 🙂 Well, perhaps not.
Commodore needs to continue concentrating on schools where they're doing
okay with it. But they must work hard… a huge CD-I school push will
begin within a year or so.
BTW, another of my predictions has come true: apparently Pioneer showed
off a combination LD/CD-I player last week. I wish they'd hurry up and put
it into production and sell it here. It sounds like just what I need.
best – kevin
Kevin:
I have been as LD fan for years, I never buy anything on video tape, always
video disc for obvious reasons. If Pioneer comes out with a combo LD/CD-I
player I would almost certainly snap it up. Seems like a real winner to me.
-=Martin=-
– via Whap!
I agree with you in that whoever gets their marketing down will be the
winner. I think the greater impact will be who can deliver Full Motion
Video. Whoever can deliver it first, in the way the public wants, will
reign. Does anybody know the latest on Full Motion Video?
United States Navy, RETIRED 🙂
Thom,
You ought to check out the video on Time Table Science from Xiphias.
They do a great job without full motion video. After all, this is CD-Rom
not laser disk. The shuttle take offs are actually more impressive the way
they are achieved.
I'm convinced that Commodore doesn't want to sell anything in the US.
Ron
And what do you think will happen the day they really, really stop selling
things in the USA? I've heard that described as an option, too.
Martin, I was going to post an original letter this eve on this subject,
but instead will just reply to your start….
Here in Seattle the two local papers have had full TWO PAGE ads, on the
back and middle of section 1, announcing the Phillips CD-I player (known as
the 'Imagination Machine'). I was amazed to open the paper to these ads,
which present CD-I very well, and left (even me) very interested.
At work today I heard two other people discussing it at lunch (while
reading paper one had noticed the ad). Neither are exactly 'techies', but
probably own CD player, good VCR, etc. Well, the ad certainly got their
interest! They were discussing the discs mentioned in the ad, and even
speculating on what the future might hold. I gathered that the two of them
were going to go out to look at it (CD-I) later.
In short, the ads here are big, and I suspect will get people to go into
the stores to look at it. It is being carried at Sears, Silo, Video Only,
Fred Meyer, and a large dept store. There is supposed to be a
demonstration kiosk at each of the stores, running the darn thing. There
are certainly more 'prestigous' audio/video outlets for it, so I'd assume
they made a marketing decision to appeal to the 'common folk'.
The ad's show a very attractive CD-I player (looks sharp!), along with
titles, etc. They make clear that you can use it as a CD player too. The
remote looks very well designed. Ad copy is good.
Anyway, I didn't want to rag CDTV about their marketing, but CDTV has been
available for a good time here in Seattle, and there has never been any
marketing of it. What does Commodore expect, that non-computer people will
just wander into the local amiga dealer to check out what non-computer
products might be for sale? (maybe it is supposed to be on sale in
non-computer places, but I've never seen it) Sheese.
If I was an 'average' consumer, which would you think I'd choose? CDTV,
marketed by Commodore, rarely advertised, available mostly through Amiga
[ MORE ]
I've heard that CBM hopes to ride on the coattails of any massive ad
campaign from Phillips, Sony, etc. for CDTV-like devices.
Well, they're not going to ride any coattails until they get CDTV into
national distribution, sigh.
I swear Unca Irv uses the U.S. as a tax shelter. No wait, he doesn't pay
U.S. taxes. Natch, another theory bites the dust.
…Denny Atkin
Remember that CBM has done extremely little US marketing in the past, so
did you expect them to change? In a few days odds are that most people in
the US will forget that CDTV ever existed. Just like the Amiga.
Ron
John:
Given that the two machines are not compatibile trying to ride on the
coattails of the CD-I push could be fatal for Commodore. Consumers could
end up feeling really cheated if they get a CDTV machine and later find out
they are stuck with many fewer titles.
This might be the consumers own fault but most are not really going to
understand the difference between the two machines and may think they are
the same. This is a double edged sword, it could be good for Commodore
especially if they can undercut CD-I in price, but in the long run it could
also harm the company's reputation.
-=Martin=-
– via Whap!
[ continuation ]
dealerships? Or Phillips CD-I, well advertised, professional demo, and
looks very slick? Guess. 🙂
–jp–seattle–
John:
I agree with you entirely. The CD-I campaign here is the same one you're
seeing, a double page print ad in the local papers with a lot of dealers
mentioned in the ad. The demo kisok in the stores is very impressive, you
should check it out. It is generating a lot of interest.
Commodore has been running both print and TV ad's for CDTV here. You
mentioned that the CD-I ad's say that the unit can play regular audio CD's
as well. Guess what CDTV ad's don't even mention that!! The CD-I ad was so
much more informative than the CDTV one.
The CD-I bundle includes 2 free CD-I's, One free audio CD and a coupon for
2 samplers, 1 for a CD-Photo sampler and one for a CD+Graphics sampler. I
thought only CDTV could play CD+Graphics but I guess CD-I can too.
Any company Commodore's size would have a tough time competing with a
company Phillip's size but Commodore could be doing so much better with
their ad campaign.
-=Martin=-
– via Whap!
Well, that's the thing: Commodore isn't even just competing with
Philips.
Commodore is using an incompatible machine to compete with the next
official form of CDs. That is, they have incorrectly positioned
their system as competition to a mass consumer world standard (and
that's true no matter what Apple or Sony or whoever might or might
not do in the _future_).
This is as insane as coming out with an cassette unit that plays tapes
in the opposite direction of all other players, and expecting it to
become popular. I honestly haven't figured out exactly _where_ they
should've positioned the CDTV unit, but it for sure needs to be
something different 🙂
Hmm. Perhaps if they'd include a super-cheap home Mandala kit… or
video titling software… or ??
cheap – theres a nail that was waiting to be hit. CDTV ain't. Could
have been, though, if they were being aggressive.
I suspect this is going to be a rather bloody debacle for CBM, one to
make the AMiga look like a raving success.
I dunno Ben… wait six months from now, and I bet CDTV units will be
really cheap. Of course, that's assuming you don't mind buying from
DAK or COMB.
🙂
Ow!. :^)
Ben
Martin, I went down to Sears today, and looked at Phillips CD-I for a
good long time. Played with 'Treasures of the Smithsonian',
'Time-Life Photography', 'Palm Springs Open' and 'Vincent Van Gogh'
discs. Also listened/watched a CD+Graphics disc, so yes it can do
that. Can certainly quibble with the discs quality, etc, but
overall I found them superior to the CDTV discs I have used
(ducking). Very subjective and very small sample, I'll admit.
I picked up three brochures. One advertising 40 different titles available
now, very slickly done. Good spread of titles too. Another glossy ad
copy. Third a four page spec sheet.
Machine has two I/O ports, with comments about ability to use mouse, keypad
with it as well (?). Will output regular and S-VHS video (!). The video
modes are listed as:
DYUV 16 million color RGB 32,768 colors
CLUT 8 256 colors CLUT7/RL7 128 colors
CLUT4 – 16 colors RL3 8 colors
Video resolutions are: 384/768 horizontal; 240/480 vertical. hmmm…
amiga images should translate real well, huh? 🙂
It has built in transition effects (saw some good examples of fades, etc on
the discs – built into hardware).
The remote control (maybe most important part of system, since you use it
to control the system, right?) is a thing of beauty. Uses a 'thumbstick'
to move cursor around. Very natural. (hope commodore steals that idea for
CDTV soon!). I could quibble about the placement of the 'button' but
overall the thing fits comfortably in one hand, and is real easy to use. I
picked it up in a few seconds. (unlike the CDTV remote, which pretty much
required two hands to operate)
The marketing company for Phillips had a fellow at the kiosk just to
explain the system to folk (did not depend on the Sears personnel, in other
words). Don't think that they will be there long, but a real nice
marketing touch to start with, I think. And there were people there too.
The entire time I was there others were also around.
Anyway, just thought I'd post my initial impressions of the thing. Very
favorably impressed, if you can't tell. Oh yeah, price: $800 walks you
out with one, + the freebie discs, etc…. whew!
Kevin:
I agree that Commodore has little hope of prevailing with a non-standard
format. As CD-I is backed by a whole group of companies it will probably
become the standard but I don't necessarily agree that it is the standard
at the moment. Many companies are backing it but that doesn't guarantee
success.
I am not ready to put down my money for either format at this point. I
backed BETA over VHS and look where that got me:-) I will for now wait and
see what happens. If I had to pick a winner I would pick CD-I. The one
thing that irritates me though is the feeling that if it were not for CDTV
appearing on the market, we would not be seeing CD-I this year.
Phillips/Sony etc just couldn't let CDTV have a Christmas to themselves and
so rushed out a competing product. This obviously is just my reading of the
situation, you seem a lot close to CD-I so you may have a different
perspective.
BTW: I took a close look at CD-I this weekend, and I was tempted…
Martin,
If Commodore had come out with an incompatible audio disc player back when
CD-DA was announced, it wouldn't have made CD-DA any less of a standard.
The same is true now. CD-I is here to stay, is heavily backed, and by this
time next year, there will be many more players available in the US.
The reason there won't be any competition is not because something better
couldn't be made (it could), but because consumers won't stand for another
*company-based* standards war… and the major companies realize it (this
is partly why Sony and Philips have now cross-licensed DCC and MD
technology).
I'm sure you're right that Philips et al would rather have waited
until MPEG decoding was ready before marketing CD-I players. But
remember, Commodore had the chance for _last_ Christmas all to
themselves. They originally announced that CDTV would be out by
then, and with "a hundred titles." They've also had a year since
then to market CDTV.
BTW, I still use my ten-year-old Beta VCR sometimes 🙂 regards – kevin
There you go with those hilarious jokes again, mentioning CBM and
marketting in the same sentence… (guffaw, guffaw) :^}
Don't you mean sob, sob?
Ron
I have a button that says, "I used to be disgusted – now I'm just
amused." That describes my feelings about CBM. Ever since the bought
the Amiga design they have done almost everything they could to
prevent it from selling. Its like Jed Clampett is running the
comapny and Jethro is VP of marketting. Laughter is the only
response that will keep you sane. wmc
I agree. I just have to try and remember that there are SOME good people
back there who do work hard on Amiga.
Ron
Ron,
I agree. The technical people do good work. Basically the best in the
personal computer industry if you judge by the quality of the operating
system and the hardware architecture. Now if they could populate the
management spots with some people who can appreciate the advanced nature of
what they have, devise strategic and coordinated developement and
marketting plans and schedules, they could conceivable capture the #2 sales
slot in North America for the Amiga line alone.
The way they have advertised in the past has indicated an attempt the
market the Amiga in a way that worked for the C64/128. Times are different
as well as the machines being different. CBM marketting and management has
yet to understand what they have and therefore has no idea how to sell it.
wmc
Maybe, just maybe, CBM is listening.
Here, in the San Jose area, they've been running a fair amount of TV ads
("they'll never call me a boob tube again") which, although very shy on
visual information about CDTV, is at least ear catching.
The CD-I announcement was splashed around the San Jose Mercury News with a
business article. The article, however, did make a point in saying that
Commodore will be the big competition for CD-I with CDTV.
And, just now, as I was reading your article, another CDTV commercial came
on and had a trailer to come in and see a demonstration at a nearby
"participating" Macy's.
Maybe, just maybe…
David – via Whap!
CDTV's been out for months now; almost zero advertising. CD-I is out just
hours, and I've seen people talking about it in a half-dozen forums
already.
Philips (and now Tandy… and I don't think those two are the last CD-I
brands we'll see before long) are gonna advertise way beyond CBM's capacity
to keep up.
CBM may or may not do more CDTV advertising, but I still wish they'd take
that money and earmark it for decent mass Amiga ads instead <sigh>. While
they fiddle around with CDTV, the Amiga is burning down.
What do you think of the possibility that Joe Consumer will learn of
the technical incompatibilities between the systems and dismiss both
CD-I and CDTV as too complicated or some other reason?
John, a good question.
Lately, there've been a lot of magazine articles which show some
confusion. Stereo Review has mixed up CD-I as an LD replacement.
TIME magazine recently wrote up CDTV as "Commodore's CD-I version,
but with fewer titles", more or less. Even technical magazines often
opine about consumer confusion.
Which proves columnist confusion only 🙂 The mass consumer has
always been different. They learn and decide from what they hear and
see on TV, from ads, and mostly from friends. CDTV hasn't been
widely marketed enough to sow any real confusion in the mass public's
mind, and people are familiar enough with the CD-I companies that
they won't think twice buying from them.
But I'll tell you exactly what will happen this fall <looking into my
crystal ball :->. Commodore will come out with an ad campaign
pushing CDTV/keyboard bundles, and touting the expandability of CDTV
into an Amiga…
The reaction of most of the public will be normal: "Huh, what's that?
Is it IBM compatible? No? Then why do I want it?" <crystal ball
fades to black>
sigh – kevin
John, just my opinion, but I played with four different CD-I applications
today, of varying types (game, reference, etc), and this is NOT 'too
complicated' for ordinary folk. Watched others (regular folk shopping at
Sears) use it and they too had no difficulty using it. (One can always
comment about the quality of user interfaces in programs, but overall they
were very intuitive and useful.)
The remote on CD-I is excellent. Very easy to use (not very complicated
control – only a thumbstick + triggers, and 8 small CD control buttons.
Real simple and user friendly.
Anyway, CD-I certainly was not scaring off the 'ordinary' folk using it.
–jp–seattle–
A real, live CDTV (read Commodore in the US) commercial?
My general impression is that CDTV will be gone from stores in a few months
once stores notice the minimal marketing.
Ron
David:
Maybe just maybe…
I have seen the TV spot too, (I'm in SF), but right now the TV ad is only
running in the Bay Area as I understand it. Only selected Macy's are
actually carrying the product, Whole Earth and Fry's also have it.
CD-I is in the Good Guys, Circuit City, Sears and Macy's. Macy's are the
only store I know that are carrying both, It would be really interesting to
know which product is doing better for Macy's. CDTV discs are also
appearing in places like Tower which is a real plus. People seeing CDTV
discs at their local record store may well find their way to a CDTV dealer
to check it out.
I not counting CDTV out yet, but it's going to be tough. -=Martin=-
– via Whap!
my 2 pence:
CDTV has only two things in its favor right now:
1) it has some deep content titles available now (re: encyclopedia. CD-I
wont have one for another year or more the way they do business) – and you
get Grolier's $300 title in the box, not just a Golf game. (rumor has it
that this was chosen because it was such a hit at trade shows. But are the
golf playing exec's the real major market?)
2) expandability to a full service computer. CD-I plans have stated
outright that it will NOT be a general purpose machine. Does the american
pubics really want this? Like Kevin said: "Huh, what's that? Is it IBM
compatible? No? Then why do I want it?"
CD-I has its own two things:
1) well crafted, interactive titles with years of effort dedicated to
making them easy and fun to use. (including the controller)
2) Marketing.
Point 2 wins the battle for CD-I
There will be some fierce price compitition as already evidenced by the
price cuts on both sides. CDM drops their list to the $700 range ($500
street by xmas?) CD-I drops from $1500 expected price at CES to under
$1000, $700 street now, $500 by xmas).
As a title programmer… i'm already working on other platforms.
i.e.
Jerry Isdale
Jerry:
You're right about the expandability of CDTV, it can be expanded to a full
computer system, but does the average consumer want a full computer? Even
if it does they would probably rather have IBM compatability.
CDTV does appear to be ahead in software and could well maintain that lead
because it is an Amiga and can draw on the existing Amiga software base.
But it seems to me that the average CDROM product, either CD-I or CDTV is
mostly data, with programs to access and display the data. Once these
programs exist for both platforms a whole series of titles could be
generated using the same programs and different data. Software is extremely
important of course and in a head to head battle it could be the deciding
factor. CDTV does appear to have one over several major software
developers.
-=Martin=-
– via Whap!
Martin,
Yah, data is often the key… not the development platform.
Some of the first major CDTV titles were mostly done on Macs/PCs. In a
similar manner, CD-I data editing is often done on Macs/PCs, with
programming done on Suns, Mac-IIs, or other systems, and crosscompiled. At
least one CD-I title (Sammy's Circus Adventure) had its animation
originally produced on an Amiga!
Artists/authors for either format will tend to use the systems they have
and are used to… and then can transfer the results, as you suggested.
The trouble with the idea that an existing software base on any computer
can easily be drawn upon for CDTV, is that few personal applications are
geared towards across-living-room, joystick-only-controlled, usage.
best – kevin
Kevin:
Re: Adapting existing Amiga programs for CDTV
I was thinking that *if* the Amiga programs had been written to correctly
adapt themselves to the different screen resolutions and modes that the
Amiga currently supports as well as support different fonts then it should
be fairly easy to reconfigure the program for something like CDTV.
I have found that a lot of existing Amiga programs don't do this, they
expect PAL or NTSC mode for example and don't adjust. So while it might be
possible that programs could be written to run on either an Amiga or CDTV,
you're right that many existing programs won't.
-=Martin=-
– via Whap!
Hey, Kev. If we were to "get into" CD-I developemnt, what kind of
investment would it take?
Ben
I guess that's really a question best-asked on say, MULTIMEDIA forum, Ben.
CD-I developers there could probably answer better than I could. I used to
know an 800 number to call; I'll try to find it.
The last time I looked, the lowest cost starter system was just under $10K.
That included an industrial CD-I player expanded out with SCSI HD,
floppies, extra memory, ports, keyboard, etc… some tools and sample
data… and first disc mastering fee. But this may have dropped in the
past months.
From what I gather, a more powerful setup might be to use a Mac-II for
editing and programming, tied to an industrial player for emulation
purposes (the player asks for a CD sector… the Mac sends the "sector"
data). There are similar setups available for IBM PC or Unix VMEbus
systems.
[I'm a little surprised that nobody's done the same thing using an Amiga…
especially since at least one of the CD-I guys at Microware (Lee Glenn) is
a longtime Amiga owner (A3000 nowadays). Hmmm. Perhaps I do know why, at
least partly. Without something like the HAM-E, it'd be difficult to do
editing of 8-bit+ images on the main Amiga development system. I know that
some CD-I studios use Amiga/Toaster combos for editing data, tho.]
best – kevin
Thanks, Kev.
Ben
Martin: While the average consumer doesn't want a full computer; I'll bet
you two sticks and a leaf that the average consumer *likes the idea* of
expanding something into a full computer. Just think back for a moment, to
the 2nd generation video games (Atari VCS, Intellivision, etc) The most
popular proposed accessory for those early machines was the 'expand to real
computer' option.
Gee, I wonder if AtOnce will work on a CDTV 🙂
andy
Actually Andy, I was wondering if a Mega Midget Racer would work in a CDTV?
🙂
–jp–seattle–
Interesting question;
andy
Yes and No talk to CSA and they might explain (they were/are working on
somthiething with C=).
BEN:Leigh's Computer's
Of interest from news reports:
There's a CD-I publisher and developer's conference at the Westing
Bonaventure Hotel in Los Angeles… yesterday and today (Nov 1).
The sponsors include Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd. (Panasonic);
Microware Systems Corp.; Philips Consumers Electronics; Philips Interactive
Media of America; and Sony Corp. Speakers include representatives from
Kodak and Encyclopedia Britannica… and exhibits include products from
companies such as Capitol Disc Interactive, Morton International, Maxwell
Multimedia (UK), ON/Q (Canada) and Industrial Management Force
(Netherlands).
CD-I hardware is on display, including Sony's Portable CD-I Viewer, which
according to the report will be introduced here in the United States,
Philips CD-I player, and a new Panasonic CD-I player from Matsushita. Also
a MIDI expansion device, and a demo of Photo CD by Kodak.
I suspect mass consumer CD-I advertising will really begin as soon as they
can make enough units to supply the whole country's consumer outlets.
However, this recession is a bad time to intro something 🙂
I wish both them and C= well, I actually don't want either to fail.
BEN:Leigh's Computer's
I definitely wish C= well. The last thing I'd like to see is one less
Motorola-cpu-using major company! But I'm also tickled to death that CD-I
is based around the 68xxx series.
kevin