#Selling the Amiga
40 messages in this thread
Charles,
All I can tell you is I've NEVER, EVER, over five years, gotten an
"answering machine"… and I've been developing for the Amiga since the
day the a1000 was released. Methinks you're not calling the right number.
If you're a developer, it's right on the docs you get about once every 60
days… there's an entire directory they give out to developers.
Commercial ones, anyway…. maybe you're one of those "other" developers?
(Not putting you down, it just now occurred to me)…
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
You are right, I am a second class developer. But at this point, investing
in Commercial status is a bit like investing in a buggy whip factory.
I had hopes for AA machines to make an impact. I was really impressed at
the WOA show. However, CBMs replacement for the A500 is the A600! – hardly
progress. Sometimes I think that CBM wishes they could still sell C64s.
After all, nobody needs more than 64K if the software is properly written.
– Charles
You might be right about CBM wanting to sell C64s… I couldn't help but
notice that the price for the base A600 is just about the same as what the
C64 was back when I bought mine, just before the C64 started selling in
incredibly huge quantities…
–>Steve Bennett
Steve,
-> incredibly huge quantities…
In 1991, Commodore sold 700,000 C64's.
Malcolm
The C64 was bound to start slowing down eventually… <grin>
–>Steve Bennett
Must be a matter of opinion here… I loved the 600, think it's SCADZ
better than an a500 (in fact, I think it's what the a500 should have
been). Less expensive, better looking, more compact, more complete (HD
etc), just an all-round better low end unit.
And I think the 4000 is great, excepting only the HD setup, which was
(IMHO) unutterably stupid, but it's not enough to hurt the machine in my
eyes – I bought one for myself.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I agree with you about the A4000, except I probably won't have the money to
buy one until they fix the problem with the HD and maybe add some new
goodies.
What I don't like about the A600 is the display and the HD. It's the same
16 color med and hi res, interlaced display of all the "old" Amigas. It
may be great for cartoon animations, but I think most people would prefer
more pixels and more colors, as in VGA and Mac displays.
Some people think it will find a place since it is supposed to be cheaper
than the low end Macs and PCs.
Personally, I don't care, because the people who buy 600s won't be spending
much on their hardware or software. CBM may make a few bucks, but nobody
else will. I think the interests of the entire Amiga community (end users,
developers, and CBM) would be better served in the long run by an under
$1000 AGA machine.
– Charles
Charles:
I think an under $1000 AGA machine is the way to go also. I'd like to see
the low-end (base) Amiga be a bit more than the A600.
Wayne Steele
Saving $ with AutoPilot
Depends on the software you mean. No, people won't be buying $500
spreadsheets and word processors to work on the A600, but that doesn't
mean they won't be buying software at all. Lower end software ought to do
well with it, assuming Commodore can actually get the 600 sold out there.
And while others might put down the low end of the software market, it's
still an important segment… Why else do you think that IBM has been
trying for years to get into it? Or that Apple has announced a whole line
of machines to get the Mac into it? (Not that they're likely to succeed,
IMHO…)
Commodore is, IMHO, much better off in the US trying to get a handle on
the home market here much as they have in Europe, and *then* trying to
work from there into the business market. The software and 3rd party
support exists for the home market, giving Commodore a much better chance
by that route than any other for making any inroads here. Once they have
that handle, getting into the Business market will be easier, as the
software base will be strong enough to support more businesslike
features.
–>Steve Bennett
I disagree totally with your suggestion that CBM should try to capture the
home market and somehow leverage themselves into businesses, etc. I also
think that either IBM or Apple is in a better position to capture the home
market than CBM – especially if they think as you do.
First of all, most people buy home computers based on what they use at work
or school – not the other way around. They also steal the software and
justify it on the grounds that they are doing work at home at times when
the software is not in use at their workplace. Secondly, they don't want
to run inferior "home software" on their home machine when they have better
stuff at work.
As far as the home market is concerned, IBM has the advantage of the huge
software base of DOS and now Windows. I'm not personally interested in
one, but there are sure a lot of people who don't agree with me on this
one.
Apple has the advantage a much higher entry level platform along with very
good software. Even the lowly Classic II/Performa 200 has built-in SCSI
and networking. The LC II/Performa 400 has 8 bit color(16 bit at 512×384)
and they both have the 16 mhz 68030. Apple just lowered the list prices to
near $1000!
Commodore is in for a battle, and I don't think they can stay in the game
with the A600.
– Charles
IBM has been trying for *years* to get into the Home Market. Witness the
PC Junior, the PS/1, etc. They keep failing miserably. You need a 16 Mhz
386, with 2MB of Ram and VGA at a *minimum* nowadays to run Windows, much
less most current game software and the like, which is a strong part of a
home market. A system like that will run you, machine, HD, and monitor, a
bit over $1000. Any lesser system either can't run the software you want,
or is too difficult to use.
Apple is, IMHO, destined to fail in their attempt to get the Performa into
the Home Market, unless they really drop prices a lot. The home market
wants *low cost*, and over $1000 is way too much. Even $500 is pushing
it. Add to that the fact that the machine that they're selling at that
just over $1000 price has a tiny B&W screen with limited expandability.
Every has always had better graphics than a Mac Classic II. SCSI is
actually a drawback on this machine, as SCSI peripherals are more
expensive than IDE ones.
The A600 has dropped prices to the point where it's just beginning to
become attractive to the home market. At $599 (list price – Hopefully
street prices will be lower) for a machine with a hard drive (you don't
need a monitor, you can hook it up to your TV…) it's just *barely* below
the upper edge of what the market will take.
If there is ANY market Commodore ought to be aiming at, it's the home. If
you think Commodore can ignore that market and aim solely at business
without ruining the Amiga market entirely, think again.
–>Steve Bennett
Steve,
I can see that we will never see eye to eye on this.
Since developers must invest a lot of time and money in bringing products
to market, I'll bet on either IBM or Apple to succeed in the "Home Market"
before Commodore, especially if the A600 is their entry. I think that very
many people will spend $1000 – $1500 on a useful computer rather than a
dead end machine with a lame display.
Since Commodore is not listening to these discussions, it is pointless to
continue.
Charles
Possibly people will buy expensive machines for the home. I personally
doubt it.
In neither case, however, do I consider the A600 either a dead end machine,
nor do I consider it to have a lame display. It's actually a darned
powerful machine with a superb display for it's price point. Nothing else
in it's price range can touch it. Period.
If you think the people in the home want a more powerful machine with
better graphics and are willing to spend over $1000 for it, there's always
the A3000. At about $1500 right now, it's more powerful than the machine's
you've been touting, and the graphics are still excellent even if not up to
AGA's standards.
–>Steve Bennett
You are right about the A3000 being an attractive price point for the home
user. Unfortunately, except for the de-interlacer, it has the same
graphics capability as the A600.
I'm not trying to convince any of you Defenders of the A600 to switch to
some other computer. If you love the display and the capability, that's
great. Truthfully, if you gave me a choice between the Mac Classic, an XT,
and the A600, I'd take the A600.
My point is that Apple has pushed the capability of its low end and lowered
the price. The same has happened with DOS boxes from the shear volume. I,
personally, think that Commodore has to do better than the A600 to stay in
the game. I hope some of their upcoming offerings will do so.
As to whether the A600 is the killer home computer that some seem to think,
we'll just have to wait and see what "people" are willing to buy.
It is obvious that CBM pays no attention to these discussions, and we will
never settle it amongst ourselves… so I'm signing off.
– Charles
Charles,
There's a whole other aspect that's being overlooked here, IMHO. What
about the kids? There's a big flap going on here in Canada that we're not
producing enough graduates for the hi-tech jobs that are going to be
opening up in the future.
How the heck can a kid who IS interested afford the $1300 Cdn. it takes to
get an entry level machine here? Ya gotta deliver a lot of newspapers to
get that kind of money. 🙂 I'm certain that part of the solution to the
problem is for the kids to get their hands dirty as soon as possible. IOW,
we NEED cheap home computers and the cheaper the better.
Geez, _I_ can't even afford those machines! I'm just glad that my son (15)
has his C64 and that he's getting into it. He's writing BASIC and learning
ML and yesterday he was reading about division algorithms in 6502. He's
learning gobs of stuff and progressing at a good rate WITHOUT having to
wait until it comes up in his curriculum. I'm trying to "liberate" an
A1000 from the office now to give him. OK, he's writing his own adventure
game <g>, but he's LEARNING to do it.
So I say Hooray for the A600! For the last several years, too many kids in
North America have spent too much time rescuing princesses! 🙂 I for one
am VERY glad to see Commodore re-assert itself at the lowest level of the
market. I really see it as vitally necessary.
It's an empowerment thing. Power to the people; not just the people with
money.
Malcolm
Charles,
I think there might be LOTS of money to be made with the 600 by
developers. Credit-card-sized games for that slot might make it a hot
item!
Malcolm
"I think the interests of the entire Amiga community
(end users, developers, and CBM) would be better served in the long run
by an under $1000 AGA machine."
I agree.. but $999 is too high a price for a lowest-end model. Apple has
the Mac Classic, Commodore has the A600. Only the A600 will wind up being
far cheaper than the Mac Classic. 🙂
-Chris
FYI the Mac Classic is dead. The lowest Mac is the Classic II/Performa
200. It has 4 megs, a 16 mhz 68030, a SCSI hard disk, a high density
floppy, and networking. It also has the crappy little 9 inch monochrome
screenand a $995 list price. However, rumors are that by the end of the
year, there will be a color Classic II and a whole crop of new Quadras.
I think the A600 would have been fine 2-3 years ago, but it is too late for
that level of hardware.
– Charles
Charles,
FYI, the Mac Classic is in the top 5 machines in sales in Canada! Other
slots in the top 5 are Classic II, LC & LC II.
Upholds my theory that for a certain segment, money is no object. Once
that market's catered to, price point is everything.
Malcolm
Ben,
I like the 600 too; though I don't think it's way better than the 500.
Don't think it's better looking either. And I'm pretty accustomed to the
standard keyboard by now.
Still, it could be the next 64. I've got my eyes on that PCMCIA slot.
Malcolm
Ben,
I'm one of those "other" developers,and I get a list every few weeks
giving me the numbers to call for just about anything I might need to know
about the Amiga. I don't often have need to call, but I've always been
able to get help promptly on those rare occasions.
—Betty
Yep, well… that sounds about like what I'd expect. Dunno what has been
happening to this fellow, but it's certainly not representative.
As I mentioned in another post, my dealer got his 4000's in today… so
there's anpother place where CBM actually came through just as they
promised. Almost makes me willing to hope. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
And when do you get YOUR 4000, Ben?
—Betty
Should be here Tuesday; it was at the dealer's Friday afternoon, and I've
asked (well, ok, begged) for UPS/red shipping. Looking forward to it a
great deal.
The last Amiga I bought was a 2500/020. That thing has grown to a 2500/030
with 36 megs of ram, an IV24, 7-port serial card, several HD's and a
signle-frame controller; it's quite the critter, compared to what I bought
originally. I use it for work, and will (probably) continue to do so.
The 4000 is destined to live in my "ham shack", where the colors, high
speed and so on will make it a welcome and powerful addition. One of the
things I'd *like* to do this winter (when the snow is here, hopefully) is
dig into the AVT (slowscan television) software and mod the stuff to drive
the new display modes. Plus it'll be running packet and suchlike.
I'll be sure and announce it here, trust me.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
How about if we ship you a few tons of white styrofoam peanuts! (anything
to speed further development of AVT_Master.) If you are worried about the
enviro, then I'll start up the pop corn maker!
Just blew the new computer and DSP modem fund on a four wheeler (ATV). By
the time this fund gets built up again, CBM should have the 4K available
with SCSI2 and DSP.
73, Kelly
I just bought a 4wd also – mainly because my Z28 has been modified so much
it's no longer ANY use in the snow… rear tires are 18.5 inches wide
each, and they positively float on anything slick, like snow. The blower
kinda makes it interesting to drive on slick surfaces, too. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Z28 – that's a _car_, isn't it? Who in their right mind would buy a
_car_? Most useless vehicle I've ever seen <grin>. The Blazer I had was
fun for driving (hey, it was 4×4, also), but was useless for a utility
vehicle.
Hmmm… The blower in my truck (4×4 too) has never been cause for concern
in any season! All 7.3 litres of raw Diesel power, Turbocharged by
Banks.
73, Kelly
I love my car. :^) And my bike. :^)) Between a blown (supercharged, not
turbochared, btw) 305 v8 and an NOS enhanced 1100 inline 4, I get my
jollies going in straight lines. Sure am glad that daytime tickets here
are $5 each. :^)))
We've got a 4×4 blazer; Anne uses it to go back and forth to work, needs
it for the times when the gumbo is sticky and when (not very often) we
have snow. A blower in 4wd would be great – but rwd in a car with a light
rear end, it's just amusing.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
$5 for speeding – Nuts! I received _one_ speeding ticket – doing 115 in a
90 zone (that's kilometers/hour!). At that time the price to my wallet
was about $50CDN. Now the damage would be about three times that.
Daytime/nighttime – makes no difference. Glad they didn't catch me a few
weeks earlier – was doing up to 140 passing an army convoy enroute to an
excercise out west. The blazer can sure fly with it's little V6. The
fifty bucks was too much for me, so now I only do 100!
IF I was caught doing 140 I'd most likely end up in the joint for a bit –
something about reckless endangerment!
Warn winch came for my 4 wheeler Tuesday. Going to take the better part
of friday to wire the unit up. Take about 5 minutes to bolt the winch in
place, but to wire the unit I have to remove the gas tank, remove seat,
rear rack, battery, rear fender assembly……. Just to wire it!!
73, Kelly
Yep, well Montana;s a great state. No sales tax, tiny tickets (at least,
during the daylight hours), no overpopulation problems, lots of room (4th
largest state in the country), and lots more to be grateful for. I love it
here; never plan to leave. Ever.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Speaking of ham radio… I'm considering a move of about 30 miles to
another county that's long-distance from my friends here in Madison. I'd
like to remain in data and voice communications with them with minimum
cost. We're all computer- and gizmo-happy, so what about ham radio or
packet radio or whatever kind of radio? What would we need to invest in
terms of time (for licenses) and money to get a) voice link or b) a data
link? Is ham radio a reasonable solution? Are there restrictions again st
commercial use?
It's _completely_ restricted from commercial use.
Time – for you, maybe a month at the most to get a codeless tech.
Money – for packet and packet modem and s/w, about $1000 for good stuff.
license is only a couple of bucks or so.
Datacomm is ok, and legal as long as it's for fun or experimentation. As
soon as you start passing data for direct commercial reasons, you're a bad
fella. Data rates of about 9600 baud are pretty common now.
Final thing (of course) is that if you DID pass commercial, or sensitive
data over the radio, you'd have to be nutz… as there are plenty of hams
out there who would be happy to spread it around for you.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Hmm. So does selling AVT qualify as commercial? 🙂 We'd certainly
encrypt. What about business band?
You can sell anything you want, long as you don't do it over the air.
Business band I don't know that much about – but I bet you can get freqs
to do what you want, just given the right amount of $$$.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
John, you can not encrypt data sent over amateur radio bands. It is
illegal up here, and am pretty sure is down there, too. Business band –
once you get a frequency and radios, am pretty sure you could do anything
you want as long as you stay within the audio bandwidth of the equipment –
should be able to do 2400 bps using the mic inputs. 9600 bps may be
doable, but would require connections inside the radio – a sure way to
void type acceptance.
73, Kelly
You bet there are restrictions, John. No business use – period! Though
the FCC is looking at some changes that will allow US hams to do things
such as order up a pizza using an autopatch.
IS the 30 miles pretty well line of site? What you could do is get a
couple of business band FM radios (would have to be purchased/licensed,
etc) and use them and run packet for data or use the mike for voice.
73, Kelly
I'm looking forward to your comments about the 4000, Ben. I've put off
ordering one for myself – want that SCSI very badly!! But it certainly is
tempting to get one, all the same.
—Betty
Well, I'll have comments – I've been short of money at times, even short
of cats – but opinions, no. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Can't wait to hear them!
Bob Comer
It shipped today, red label… so I'll tell you tomorrow!
–Ben
…via AutoPilot