#The Emp. has no clothes?
58 messages in this thread
This is an open question, and I'm not trying to slam the company, but…
For the Nth month in a row, I've seen the full page ad for Cybernetica's
Newton's Law program. Frankly, I've been impatiently waiting for it to
come out.
…..
During that period, I've had _many_ chances to examine the _TWO_ rendered
images that appear in that ad. (Which seems to be all that _anyone_ has
seen of the program.)
Most suspicious is the top picture of the baseball being hit by the bat.
Now, I've done a number of images/animtions using motion blur, and this
particular image has always bothered me. The most noticable error is that
the ball, if rendered with LightWave motion blur, should _NOT_ be sharp
and distinct on the leading edge. A closer examination of the ball will
show that it actually looks like someone used a 2D blur algortihm on the
trailing edge of the ball. (Had the ball been rendered in LightWave, the
ball would appear blurred on both edges, and nowhere as sharp as the image
in the ad.)
The same can be said of the baseball bat. If you'll notice, the blur along
the trailing edge of the bat is all one length. Had the bat been properly
modeled, it would be swiveling about a point several inches down from the
far end of the bat, and the blur would be greater at the end closest to
the camera. Again, the object looks like it has been processed in a 2D
paint program.
On the other hand, the lower image showing the fan blade, crankshaft, and
pistons, actually looks like it was rendered using LightWave. If you
notice the fan blades, you'll see the familiar 'trail-effect' of a LW
image with Medium motion blur (ie: 9 renderings/image). In this image, had
the blur been added by a paint program, the bkgd elements would have been
blurred – the bearing races behind the blurred fan blade remain crisp, so
I believe this image was rendered in LightWave.
What confuses me is that the baseball/bat scene is the easiest to mock up
in LightWave?!? Why would they use a paint program to simulate something
so simple? (Now, they _might_ be rendering using something besides
LightWave, since _no specific renderer_ is credited for the images seen in
the ad.)
Like I said at the outset, I'm not interested in slamming the company, so
much as looking for feedback. Do you think the images are legit? And if
not, then what (if anything) should be done about to determine their true
origin? (Might this not be the journalistic responsibility of certain
large Toaster publications? :^)
In retrospect, maybe this belongs in the 'SoapBox' forum?!? <G>
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
Erik,
Was that last part about "journalistic responsibility of certain large Toaster
publications" meant for me? What do you think VTU's policy or action should be
in a case like this?
Jim Plant Video Toaster User
PMFJI Jim: The only think I could think of is to ask them to put "coming
soon" in their ad. There's certainly no breach of ad standards in this
case. The ad isn't causing anoyne harm…
Trent/ReAnimators
Say that to Brent Malnack!
Brad Hayes
Hayes Visual Communication
Brad: I haven't seen any ads for the DMM upgrade yet. Are they
advertising it now?
Trent/ReAnimators
Trent:
No I only meant that the comment about the Newton's Law ad's not
hearting anybody. The only people that they are herting is Positron and
the sales of the DMM. Brent whent a little balistic (perhaps justifiably
so) here a while back. I don't think that youll see any adds for the new
DMM untill after Toaster 4.0 is released since I believe that it is going
to be directly intagratable.
Brad Hayes
Hayes Visual Communication
Whoa!!! Looks like I've missed some fun here. First off, I think Cybernetica
did themselves enough damage with their advetorial in VTU. Did they forget to
mention their software?
In the Siggraph issue (July ?), VTU ran a copy of a press release from
Cybernetica that stated that the program was now available. I, of course, was
quite upset with VTU for printing that press release without confirming
shipment. They promised Jim Plant that they would ship within 3 weeks of my
complaint which was August 1. I wanted a retraction printed, and think that VTU
should now print one.
In some of my heated discussions with Cybernetica, they bragged about having a
team of 10 physics programmers working on the code. Turns out that it's two
kids in a garage in Milwaukee. Oh well. Not even NewTek could afford to staff
10 physics programmers.
We have nearly completed the 3D Studio IPAS DMM, which we have been working on
since the Amiga market came to a grinding halt. During the port, many bugs have
been fixed, as well as features added. As soon as we ship the 3DS DMM, we will
move all bug fixes and new features including a new interface for the LW
version. This update will be mailed free of charge to all registered DMM users.
We have felt bad in not updating the LW customers as fixes have come about, but
we are not large enough to spread the programmers that thin. We are very
pleased with the new DMM. On the PC, a 486 50 mhz generates an identical scene
four times faster than on the Amiga 4000. Can't wait for LW PC!!!
The latest excuse from Cybernetica is that they have to change the interface
because NewTek is upset with it. That excuse should've been valid for 3 days,
and not 2 months. One of their customers called me to tell me that he tried to
get a sample, a copy of the manual in progress, or anything, and they finally
admitted that work on the manual has not yet begun. This was last week. Now,
they are not answering their phone.
I've been quite because they've been doing a good job of destroying themselves.
Brent
That's great news for the Amiga DMM update, Brent…
Especially the free part! :->
Trent/ReAnimators
Nice to see ya back here Brent.
Member of the Association of Media Professionals
Brent:
I hadn't heard from you in awhile I figured you must be kind'a busy
with somthing. Are you still scedualed to be at the AVID Hawaii training,
it will be nice to acctualy meet some of the virtual people i have met
here on CSI.
Brad Hayes
Hayes Visual Communication
Unfortunately, my schedule will not permit me to attend. VTU was real
interested in having me, but things are a little crazy right now. I may speak
at the VTU Toaster Expo in December. We are discussing it now.
I'm sure we'll meet at some point.
Brent
Some other time then…
Brad Hayes
Hayes Visual Communication
I'm glad you caught my comment, and I hope you realize I wasn't trying to
accuse you of collusion or anything like that.
I'm really not sure what VTU's position should be as a carrier of the ad.
I understand that it wouldn't be cost effective to examine every ad that's
submitted. In that case, I don't see much in the way of 'journalistic
responsibility.'
However, since your magazine does cover new products, and does seem to
occasionally stray beyond the realm of pure product review, I can see as
to how a little investigative reporting about this much-touted, but never
seen, product might be appropriate. I've seen this same full-page 4-color
ad running in major video magazines for months. I have also heard some
very interesting stories about what/when they claim to be shipping. Given
the scope of their claims (esp. in that 2-page ad special you ran a few
months back, where the president claims to be designing some kind of
virtual universe construction kit), and the fact that no one has seen
_anything_ except that 1 page flyer, I (and many others) would like to see
a full report about Cybernetica from an unbiased source. Seriously, I
don't even know what kind of track record the company has? Who are these
guys?!?
So, in conclusion, I would say that as one of few sources of consistently
valuable Toaster news, it is the responsibility of VTU to examine
businesses which might be making exggerated or false claims. At the same
time, I do not hold VTU responsible for carrying the ad – as I said, it
just wouldn't be profitable to double-check every advertiser.
Thanks for your input!
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
Think of all the money AmigaWorld would've lost from the Opalvision guys!
:->
Trent/ReAnimators
Erik,
I like the idea of investigating Cybernetica. I'd be interested in reading
that story. Why don't you do it and write an article?
JG
It's something I could consider doing, though I have _NO_ training in
formal investigative techniques.
I'd be very leery of writing a negative report, only to have them slap me
with a lawsuit for libel or something, based on some mistake I might make.
Part of my problem is that I wouldn't know how to efficiently research a
company located several hundred miles from me. Also, I'm not real familiar
with laws concerning advertising claims, pre-payments, and company
business law. These are all subjects which should be addressed.
Also, since they might actually end up having something to sell, I'd have
to make sure and interview one or two people from the company, insist on
seeing a working version, etc. Again, doing research for that part would
be prohibitively expensive. (Heck, it _cost me_ about $500 to get the hdw
req'd for the ShaBLAMM! review, and I _still_ have as yet to find out how
much I'll get paid for that article….You'd think the guys at ShaBLAMM!
would give me a discount or something, but 'noooo!' :^)
Thanks for the offer, but maybe we could find someone closer to their base
of operations?
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
You know, Erik, it reminds me (the bat image) of the one that was
displayed in Viewpoint's last flyer (without the skeleton). The ad was
for 3rd party complex motion files. But, I think you're right, really
looks like a processed image.
'Vapourware' has always ticked me. Obviously, a program making those
claims would have to be mighty complex. Look at the power required for
DMM in it's current version; but at least Positron's not advertising the
DMM upgrade…
Trent/ReAnimators
I'll agree that there's a chance the baseball image was rendered in a
different package. (It would just be nice if they credited the images.)
Like you, I find 'vapor-ware' very distracting. Given what I've heard
about them on this forum (admittedly, from the mouth of a competitor), I'm
seriously beginning to doubt that they'll ever deliver on their promise.
One thing I was hoping to do was force some beta-testers to stand up and
claim that the program actually works. From what I've heard, no one has
seen more than just the one-page flyer that has been reprinted infinity-1
times.
Thanks!
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
Erik: Actualy they do credit the Images.
"Art by Artasia Productions / Images and Motion"
now is that the FULL name of the company or do the credit them with both
the Images and the Motion????
Brad Hayes
H.V.C.
I was hoping for individual credits on each image, or better yet, maybe an
explanation of _how_ they got it to look like that. Thanks! Erik Flom
BTW, they are one of my competitors here locally. They are the ones that
do the anims for $10 /sec. It is actually a guy whose main income is his
regular job as an employee of Cybernetica, as I understand it, and he uses
company equipment for Artasia work.
I'm kinda interested in opinions on the Artasia art work behind the Warp
System ads.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne,
It is not uncommon for manufacturers to use bogus images in advertising. The
original DMM ads had a mocked up interface. It is probable that the interface
images for NL were modified screen grabs from a LW interface. No harm done…
As far as the rest of the artwork is concerned, the only problem I see is that
somebody cannot spell. (Issac should be Isaac). Maybe Dan Quayle wrote the copy
for them……
Brent
>> (Issac should be Isaac).
It could have been worse — what if the ad's designer had been a Dallas
Cowboys fan and spelled it "Issiac" (a la Issiac Holt)? 🙂
– Jim, on AutoPilot!
My favorite is Haywood Jeffires of the Houston Oilers. It's pronounced Jeffries
even though it looks like Jeff- Fires. Maybe it's a new trend.
Brent
re: Haywood Jeffires and Issiac Holt
Yeah, I thought it was Jeff-Fires when I first read it too. On a somewhat
related tangent, how about Cleveland Gary, the runningback with the
backwards name? <g>
– Jim, on AP!
$10 a second! Thats REAL Lowballing! Sheesh!
Member of the Association of Media Professionals
Well, the price is bad enough. But if the art work behind the Warp
Systems ad is an indicator of the quality of work you get for that price,
and people are going to him anyway – makes me loose faith that my fellow
man can tell the difference between $#!^ and Shinola.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Thats for sure Wayne.
Member of the Association of Media Professionals
I have a multi-page fax explaining the entire product line… :^}
Since I and they are located in Santa Barbara, I have talked to them
several times about getting in to see/try the transputer board and NL. But
each time it is supposed to happen, something happens or it is for "press
only". And they claim that VTU, AW, AVVideo all have assigned reviewers
so if I want to get included on the press list, they tell me, I have to
find another mag to write a review for… er excuse me… I have to find
another mag for which to write a review. (Never end a sent in a prep…)
wmc – via Autopilot!
I wonder if I'm the one scheduled to do the AV Video review….
Brent
ROFL somehow I DOUBT you'll be the one doing the reviewing of
Cybernetica's software. 😉
Member of the Association of Media Professionals
Hee Hee – Just calling them and telling them that you've been assigned to
do it could be fun :^}
wmc – via Autopilot!
Oooh, 'the entire product line'!
"Bringing you only the wispiest vaporware for over 5 years now….!"
<G>
Thanks for the other posts too! Like I said, I was mainly curious about
_who_ these guys were. (I've gotten lots of literature for the Warp
System, but I thought it was being sold by a bunch of canucks(sp)?)
Regardless of who in the company is responsible for the ads, the company
as a whole doesn't seem very responsible.
And, if the images were rendered by the LightEngine, then they should be
credited as such. (Frankly, if that's how it does motion blur, I'll stick
with 'the real thing'! :^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
Actully I was wondering what people thought of the Warp System ad
bacground more than the Newtons Law ad art work. The Newton's Law art
work I find to be OK. (This discussion is independent of availability,
market politics, etc). The Warp System Art (not to to be confused with
the Warp Board folks) looks childish to me. I mean – a Spanish galleon
flying through oute space with strap-on after burners?? – come on….
wmc – via Autopilot!
I've seen the ads, but hadn't really been motivated to look at them more
closely. (Maybe that says something about its quality from the outset? :^)
It's funny, I had always figured it was done by a European artist, but I
see it's the same artist who did the Cybernetica ad, and you say he's
located in your area?
It _is_ very dark, and while the choice of purple on purple might look
cool on a phosphor monitor, the main logo text does kind of fade into the
background.
Though, when it comes to the spanish galleon w/ thrusters, there is a
precedent for such things. TSR came out with an AD&D game series called
SpellJammer, where magical 'ships' of a shape and design plied the ether
between the crystal spheres of the other game universes. Never played it,
but they had some cool artwork for the ships, etc.
Now, I would have used something besides 'Gold-FractalReflections' as the
surface texture for the sails, but let's not be picky..:^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
Guess my opinion of his prices spilled over into my judgement of his art.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Yeah, when you said he was only charging $10/sec for animation, I was
amazed. Of course if he has one of those blazingly fast Warp systems, then
maybe it's _easy_ for him to pump out that 'quality' animation. :^)
I would agree that, in all, their ads do leave alot to be desired.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
>Though, when it comes to the spanish galleon w/ thrusters, there is a
>precedent for such things. TSR came out with an AD&D game series called
>SpellJammer, where magical 'ships' of a shape and design plied the ether
>between the crystal spheres of the other game universes. Never played it,
>but they had some cool artwork for the ships, etc.
>Keep On Toastin'
>Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
Hey, I wrote a Spelljammer adventure for TSR called "Under the Dark Fist"
which was kind of like the whole star wars trilogy wrapped up in 64 pages.
Fun to write, but the game system needed a LOT of work..
Grant Boucher
1 of 2 Supervising Animators :} – Star Trek: Voyager – Amblin Imaging
Wayne:
I have been wondering where you were from. sometimes I get the feeling
we are neighbors and other times I thought you lived in New Jearsy. I am
in the San Fernando Valley… maybe our paths will cross one day. sorry to
here you wont be at the Expo…
Brad Hayes
Hayes Visual Communication
Brad,
I usually get down to TS Computers, KJ and a few other places near there
every couple of months… maybe we'll collide in one of those places.
wmc – via Autopilot!
WARNING, WARNING! COLISION IMMINENT!!
Brad Hayes
Hayes Visual Communication
Wayne,
Tell em you are doing a review for LWPRO and if they let you in, do a
review for LWPRO.
BTW, a preposition is a lousy thing to end a sentence with.
JG
Be happy to. I'm gonna print this message and give it a try – nothing to
loose…
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne, from what I saw, these guys are full of it.
I called them up before Sigraph to ask them if they were going to be showing
the Transputer board. They said, oh yeah we'll have a full blown version which
is 96 times faster than a 4000 040 and we have tested it and it is going to
blow you away.
Well, heck I was really excited now, I further asked them who was beta testing
this hardware and if it was someone I might know. Their reply was that it was
built for a graphics enthusiast which I would not know, but that it is working
and will be demonstrated and Sig94. So I went to SigGraph and went to their
"booth" which was really just a chair with an Amiga and a single worn out board
behind 2" thick bullet proof plexiglass – they claimed it was the Transputer
system – but how many people know what a Transputer chip looks like anyway?
For all I know it could have been a C64 boad with some counterfit stickers.
I asked about the system which they had told me only 4 days before that would
be their, and their reply was that it had some "problems" and was not operating
as expected. I then asked about the Light Engine which they had also told me
would be demonstrated at the show – again they had some development "glitches".
I mean come on! you spend $2-3,000 per ad for months, have a 1-800 number,
hire someone to answer the phone (sometimes, usually its an answering machine),
fly people down to Florida for THE premiere graphics convention, and have
NOTHING to show for it!
I predict that they will be out of business in three months. Do I hear Mike
Wallace knocking?
Adib
RE: Newton's Law ads.
>> Might this not be the journalistic responsibility of certain large
Toaster publications? <<
I hesitate to answer because that is quite a ridiculous statement, but
here goes….
No.
JG
Please see my response to Jim Plant about where I think responsible
journalists focus their attentions.
I was in no way implicating any specific magazine. I'd just like to see a
little investigative journalism, along with all the product reviews.
Also, the magazine you edit, LWPro, would not be the right place for such
an article, since you primarily focus on 'how-to' stuff, with the
occasional review.
Wouldn't you admit to at least a little curousity as to who Cybernetica
is, and when/if they'll ship the product? (The 2-page, advertiser written,
love-fest in the recent VTU is not the kind of 'investigative reporting' I
am referring to.)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
>>Wouldn't you admit to at least a little curousity as to who Cybernetica
>>is, and when/if they'll ship the product? (The 2-page, advertiser
>>written, love-fest in the recent VTU is not the kind of 'investigative
>>reporting' I am referring to.)
Well, here is a partial. Cybernetica has several names/functions under one
roof. The one doing the advertising is mainly marketting and PR. The
actual developement is being done by other people in a company with a
slightly different name. The Warp System is designed and built by a
European firm and imported by Cybernetica. Amiga softwar to drive that
board is provided by a third bunch of folks. The NL software effort is
out of the Great Lakes region, and if I have assembled my peices right, by
a couple of people who used to be part of an Amiga dealership back there.
So, the people doing the marketting claimed that the SIGGRAPH fiasco was
because the programmers promised the stuff was ready to go, then when the
Cybernetica guys saw it, they deemed it unfit to show. If this is true,
it means that the sales arm is being jerked around by the software folks,
and didn't figure this out until SIGGRAPH.
Basically, the first time I talked to them it was wild enthusiasm. The
second, mild apology, the third, contrite confession that someone else
screwed up (the politically correct way to point the finger, I guess), and
the last time it was like a talking to the 49ers after the Philly game…
wmc – via Autopilot!
Your story sounds true to what I've heard as well. With one major exception: I
heard that the programmers provided a list of features for the 1.0 version, and
then a list of features for a future 2.0 version. The Cybernetica guys
reportedly showed the list to a local programmer friend who convinced them that
all of the features listed would be easy to put in the 1.0 release. So, without
consulting the programmers, they listed all of the features in their ads.
Looks like the problem may exist with the marketing arm and not the
programmers.
We are still planning legal action if they ship minus significant features,
even if they call the version a beta copy. That feature list has been quoted
many times from potential customers that wonder why we don't have them..
Brent
Is your IPAS for 3DS 3.0 or 4.0?
Adib
Erik,
Thier product line is organized around "engines" for the Warp Engine (as
opposed to the Warp Board) transputer system. THe Physics engine is
Newtons Law. The LightWave render engine takes LW scened and does full
raytraced rendering of that scene on the transputer. So, I suspect IF
these frames were rendered by anything, it was the LW engine for the
tranputer board, all of which is in very early (and it seems at this
point, trouble-plagued) development. So it won't necessarily look like LW
since the renderer that produce them, in theory anyway, may not have been
LW's own rendering tasks.
wmc – via Autopilot!
An important factor to consider is what kind of compatibility that this Light
Engine is supposed to offer. Will it work with scenes with bones, hiearchies,
displacement mapping, object morphing? The answer is probably no. Also, all
textures for objects would likely need to be set up in the Light Engine as
opposed to the ones saved with the LightWave object.
How about when NewTek ships the next LW with rumored Inverse Kinematics? When
would Cybernetica add support for that? This thing has somewhat of a LightRave
smell to it.
Brent
They claimed to be working with NewTek. I have a scene file I was going to
bring along for a "hey – lets try this one" to get behind the canned tests
and ad copy. But, it was all predicated on getting my foot in the door.
So far the user group rep show and tell apparently hasn't happened, the
press roll-out demo hasn't happened, and supposedly they have only shipped
to a half dozen testers. But I've not been able to confirm any of it.
('Course I haven't really tried either, as its not impacting me one way of
the other at the moment.)
wmc – via Autopilot!
I think if anyone was going to test a serious 3D system, it would be John Gross
and Grant Boucher. I am sure they had Raptors for many months before they were
actually released and therefore confidence in the viability of the product
existed.
Who IS testing this "revolutionary" product?
Also, why create this product anyway?, I think they missed their window of
opportunity since Lightwave is going to run on DEC, MIPS and INTEL machines.
Why spend the money on some "who knows what" black box when you can pick up a
bunch of 100 Mhz Pentiums or even faster DEC's and just plain crank! with the
confidence that the system is a viable and supported platform?
I think you should just try and stop by their place. More than likely it is a
residence with some guy working out of his den.
Adib
No, its not a residence. I know the area generally and that is mostly
light manufacturing, building, and auto related businesses (door adn
window stored, plumbing supply, electrical supply, auto re-upholsteres,
body shops, metal plating and plastics manufacture, La Tolteca taco ship
company …)
As I may have mentioned, I think the same people and location are actually
several companies, with somewhat unrelated product lines. So they will
probably be able to keep the doors open based on that.
What I know about the boards is that they are actually manufacutred for
stacking in high-powered array processing environments. The external case
is probabley some Inustrial S-100 variant bus cage and the software people
are building the communication software and "engines" that will be hosted
on the boards.
Compared to an Alpha, or Raptor, you could get about 4 – 6 transputer
boards (that would be up to 24 CPUs) doing parallel processin for the same
price. This was attractive at the time Raptor was a LW render machine
only and the NT/Alpha versions were not announced. Now that they are and
Raptor II as I understand it is a full service NT workstation, the Warp
system only makes sense at the 1-2 board level as a dedicated renderer.
But, at the price, if the functionality and compatibility were there, they
would probably sell a few boards. Whether they miss a window or not
remains to be seen. And if C= is resurected with RISC and '060s in the
offing, their position would be dimished again.
So, I'm probably going to "drop in" next week and see what happens.
wmc – via Autopilot!
We all await anxiously for you to open the doors to this mystery product and
company.
If its for real, fantastic!
let us know.
Adib
So what's wrong with working out of your den? :^)
Working out of my den,
Trent/ReAnimators
Nothing,
I do my Toaster stuff out of my bedroom (well it no longer looks like a
bedroom, I just sleep there).
Its a lot easier to close shop and disappear if you don't have a shop to begin
with.
Adib