CompuServe Thread

#Super Black

36 messages in this thread
#130049From: Robb HarrissOct 19, 1994 10:54 PM
We're trying to find a good setting for Superblack in 3DS3. We're rendering straight to Betacam SP in Y, R-Y, B-Y through a Grass Valley Transcoder and we're using a Vista board. We have the animation created over a black background. We want to key the resulting render on tape over another tape source through a GVG 4000 digital switcher, when does a rather nice job in this type of key. However, on the waveform monitor both before and after the render blacks are still running too low. There simply isn't enough separation between the blacks and a zero black level to get a good key. Note that this is a very hot image on an HLS scale: flames and metallic letters. Yet The waveform shows blacks falling below 0 ire. Base level black on the final rendered animation is 7.5 ire. This is with superblack on and set to 30 in the config file. How can we control this? We need a separation of 30 or 40 ire to get a good key. Other systems we're used permit setting a superblack level at 0 or -40 ire, but apparently this graphics card is not capable of this. This is something that pops up every once in a while and we expend a lot of effort trying to solve it, without success. We're lucky since most of our work is full frame and not keys. Also: is there any way to split the alpha channel and send it to disk while sending the full frame color display out to tape. We can't afford the disk space to render 350 to 450 megs of graphics to disk first for each animation. Also: is there any way to send the alpha channel out to tape without sending it first to disk. Right now if the client turns around and asks for a traveling matt of a finished animation (like today) we have to take the existing animation file, turn off all the lights, turn all the materials to flat white, and then render that out to tape. It takes a fair amount of time since there are still lots of calculations to do. Other systems permit output of the alpha information separately. -Thanks, Robb
#130140From: James J. BeyerOct 20, 1994 9:43 AM
Robb, <<We're trying to find a good setting for Superblack in 3DS3. We're rendering straight to Betacam SP in Y, R-Y, B-Y through a Grass Valley Transcoder and we're using a Vista board. ………… but apparently this graphics card is not capable of this. This is something that pops up every once in a while and we expend a lot of effort trying to solve it, without success. We're lucky since most of our work is full frame and not keys. >> Wow, been there, tried that…! We fought this for some time (just as you have it sounds) and the answer the way it was explained to me is that the super black created in 3DS is only for use with video post options. << Also: is there any way to split the alpha channel and send it to disk while sending the full frame color display out to tape.>> If you find a way let me know, when we need to get the increased differences between levels we are rendering a separate animation with objects that are white and it's attributes are set to matte objects (like you are doing). For now we are outputing to Beta SP and compositing our special effects on our new AVID system with Cosa's "After Effects" software. Hope this helped, sorry it isn't great news. Jim Beyer
#130318From: Robb HarrissOct 20, 1994 11:26 PM
with COSA? boy that's a slow way to go. Our stuff will go out to a digital online room which will do it all in real time but it's a pain to have to go back through the animation and reset all the materials and lights. And then if you forget something before rendering… Then too is the time to render the traveling matt this way. The animation we just completed took 11.5 min/frame. Resetting and rendering the matt took 2.5 min/frame. We do a lot of full frame full color animations that take less than 2.5 min/frame. Doing the matt this way is still using all the geometry of the original hence the time. At least we switched rendering to 16 bit instead of 32 bit. Still, it's only an 8 bit image. Now why would super black be for only VP procedures, you don't need it since you're working with a full alpha matt channel in 32 bit rendering. The whole point of super black is for keying through an online video switcher. OK class, who has the answer? -Robb
#130353From: John EllisOct 21, 1994 5:52 AM
Hey Robb and James, I'm not sure if I'm missing something here but to me the obvious answer is to render with Alpha Split on and to your framebuffer simultaneously. The 24 bit image will be displayed and can be put to tape. The alpha or "matte" image will go to disk. If disk space is a problem you can put a line in a batch file in VP which will delete the 24 bit image but not the alpha image. Then instead of rendering matte objects just create an IFL file with the Alpha Split images and put them to tape. That will be your matte. Does this do it? John
#130485From: John TissavaryOct 21, 1994 5:24 PM
Hi John. Long time no chat. How are things? John Tissavary | LUNA cie, inc
#130632From: John EllisOct 22, 1994 5:23 PM
Hey John… >> How are things? << No complaints. <g> DGate is getting rave reviews and I'm getting an EISA board. Guess you know what that means. <g> How goes it with you? John
#130663From: John TissavaryOct 22, 1994 10:51 PM
Things are going well. I've been "out of circulation" for a few weeks getting some training, but I'm back to regular production as of monday. There are some pretty wild things on the horizon for my company. I got some of the Dgate sell-sheets – they look pretty good. What in the world could you possibly want an EISA board for? <sarcastic g> John Tissavary | LUNA cie, inc
#130680From: John EllisOct 23, 1994 12:32 AM
>> I got some of the Dgate sell-sheets << I hope you got some of that green stuff with it. <g> >> I've been "out of circulation" for a few weeks getting some training, << Well I've been pretty much out of circulation… period. <g> I'm sure the training was a good idea. I'd guess it was intense. >> What in the world could you possibly want an EISA board for? << I know, it does seem kinda wierd. <g> They say its great for cruising the Internet, we'll see. John
#131038From: Robb HarrissOct 24, 1994 11:11 PM
The problem is: Under all circumstances the full color image goes to disk as well as the alpha-channel file. Yes, disk space is a problem. A standard animation for us would require between 350 megs and 1.5 gigs. Most of the available drive space is filled with frequently used applications and we are not will to constantly offload and onload applications to provide drive space for files that are unwanted in the first place. Please note that this is a dedicated graphics workstation. There is no combination of software settings within the render procedure which will permit what we really want: full color to display and alpha to disk. While this should be a fairly simple software switch, it is not available. We have also noted several anomalies within the rendering software settings: You can set Split Alpha to On while Render Alpha is off (nothing happens). You can have both Render Alpha and Split Alpha On when set to 16 bit ( again nothing happens). Actually it seems reasonable that one should not be able to select a switch combination that does not make sense to the system (e.g. Split On while Render Alpha is Off). The idea of using Video Post seems to be the only possibility but a tremendous workaround. It also seems very risky. While we use VP a lot, In my limited experience (bear in mind that I'm the director/editor not the computer animator) video post is a complicated solution and one risks deleting files that may be necessary elsewhere or later. How do you put a delete command in VP anyway? At the same time this thread began asking questions about Super Black. How would Super Black relate to and be necessary in VP. After all, keying is what the alpha information is all about. Super Black should relate to external experiences, such as keying through a switcher. -Robb
#131059From: Don LandisOct 25, 1994 12:59 AM
Alpha is about keying???? I don't think so. Alpha is about transparency. One of its uses is keying. The manner in which 3DS does Super black is confusing to those of us in the video profession as we define super black differently than the way 3DS does. The rendered output from 3DS "black 0,0,0 with super black turned on is always 7.5 IRE in a calibrated frame buffer. In video we would expect super black to take the 0,0,0 black to 0 IRE for the key. 3DS does not do this. What 3DS super black does is create a wider spread between RENDERED black objects and the 0,0,0 black background in the scene. This spread can be specified in the 3DS set file and has a default of 15, I recall. This will help in preventing holes in shadows and other rendered blacks that are layered using alpha transparency. The only way I know of to generate a value of black below 7.5 IRE is to adjust it in a procamp with the pedestal or black level set-up before feeding the alpha to the key input on your switcher. Have you ever done any animation using the alpha key? I have done still graphics but never animation. If you have, what hardware configuration do you use to create this traveling key? Seems to me you would require two frame accurate VCR's and a third VCR for the background video. I have also played around with some alpha channels in the Fast Video Machine that are used to perform an alpha transparent wipe pattern between the two channels during an A/B roll.
#131750From: Robb HarrissOct 27, 1994 10:48 PM
<<Alpha is about keying???? I don't think so.>> it sure is in video post production. The alpha channel gives the video switcher the information it needs to make a key hole which is then filled with whatever you specify. You decide if the alpha information creates a solid key or a partial key (transparency). A good linear keyer in a good switcher can take the alpha information and interpret it into a clean key, whether it comes from a character generator, a graphics system, a DVE or even off of tape. In the real world most keys (and their alpha information) are solid rather than transparent. The transparency is what causes trouble when the switcher cannot read the alpha information well. Then you get solids when you shouldn't, or no keying at all, and that results in a crummy inage. <<we define super black differently than the way 3DS does.>> so who's right in their definition, the new guy (3DS) or the industry that's been around 30 years longer? <<In video we would expect super black to take the 0,0,0 black to 0 IRE for the key>> actually, I'd prefer Superblack to be -10 to -40 IRE, we get a much better key that way. It works best with a difference of about 40 ire between the black and the lowest level in the image itself. <<What 3DS super black does is create a wider spread between RENDERED black objects and the 0,0,0 black background in the scene. This spread can be specified in the 3DS set file and has a default of 15, I recall.>> Uh, Huh. That's what it claims in the manual, but what setting creates what level of separation. We've fooled with all sorts of setting and still can't get much if any change. If it needs to be up around 200 then I really don't see the point. <<The only way I know of to generate a value of black below 7.5 IRE is to adjust it in a procamp with the pedestal or black level set-up before feeding the alpha to the key input on your switcher.>> That's work only if you're feeding a pure alpha signal, which doesn't need it since it is made up of pure blacks and whites, and shades of gray to give transparency. If you drop the pedestal on a color image you''ll pull the video level down as well. Pulling the video level up again will change the contrast, and the look of what one hopes is a carefully made image, besides, dropping the pedestal will not create a difference between lowest black and the next lowest level in the image. <<Have you ever done any animation using the alpha key? >> Lots, Thousands over the years, sometimes hundreds in one show, so it's very important to us. <<Seems to me you would require two frame accurate VCR's and a third VCR for the background video. >> That's how it's done and that's the rub, you have to pay for an extra machine in the session and you have to have a switcher that can handle keying information from a tape. Basically you have one tape with the color image (key fill), another with the key information (key source) and one or more tapes with other background images. The edit controller will synchronize it all to the Master deck. A traveling matt (or key in video terms) is an exact replica of the color image to be keyed, but it is all blacks and whites matched to the color image pixel by pixel. On the switcher, the key source is selected as a tape input (say deck C) on the Key Buss. The key fill is selected as the color image on tape (deck A) on the Key Buss. On one of the main ME (mix effects) busses a source tape (B) is selected, and this becomes the background when we set the switcher to Key over tape B. Of course if we're really clever we could be dissolving or wiping between decks B and D at the same time that we're keying (and inserting a DVE move from deck E over all this) as well as a downstream key from the CG all before a master fade to black. All of which it gets hairy in the online room. OK, so we have the traveling matt. It is an exact B&W copy of our animation. Since it matches it will be in the same position and be the same size and shape as the color image. The B&W punches the hole in the background video and the color animation fills that hole exactly. Now it's expensive enough and complicated enough that we like to try to go a different route which when it works saves the cost of a deck and a lot of set up. A luminance key works when there is a great enough difference between standard black (7.5ire) and the next level in the image. A pure white CG is a classic example. It can be keyed all by itself because there is a good 90 ire of difference between the black background and the white foreground. The same can be done with color images. However, you must set the lowest luminace in the color image to no lower than 30 or 40 ire (depending on the switcher) on a 7.5 ire background. That can be very difficult with some images. The trick then is to artificially lower the black in the background, to 00 or even lower. Then the difference between that black and the next level is even greater and a better key is possible. Considering the explanation of Superblack in 3DS I expect it to work as a lower end buffer for the dark regions in my image limiting to a specified level (20, 30, 40ire) whatever I set. The the resulting color image should have a great enough luminence difference to key without an alpha matt (and saving the cost of an extra machine in online). Some of the 3DS images work and some don't. The alpha information in 3DS works perfectly, but a traveling matt right now requires rending the entire animation as an alpha split to disk. We're set up (and have been for years) to go directly to component tape. I don't want to go to disk unless I have to, it just takes up valuable disk space and isn't necessary. I certainly don't mind putting the alpha files to disk while I'm rendering color to tape but I don't want to be writing a deleting thousands of unwanted files. I just want to do Alpha split and tell 3DS to put only the alphas on disk. From my point of view it seems like it should be easy enough, but I'm not a programmer.
#131798From: Don LandisOct 28, 1994 4:59 AM
Thanks for the detailed description from one who does it. I will save your excellent description for my references. One thing I might caution you is when you read certain terms in 3DS such as "video post" "Super black" "keying" "rotoscoping" etc. don't always assume these terms have traditional video definitions. They are similar terms but have been redefined by Yost group to more accurately describe the video world as seen by the 3DS animator rather than an experienced video editor. This doesn't make the definition wrong. It just adds new definitions to an existing vocabularity. Thus, alpha in the 3DS arena is all about transparency, by definition. Actually about transparency in layers of graphics files to be more accurate. As a side bar: I once attended a lecture by Lon McQuillon. He was asked a question about "Super Black" in a talk about the Ultamatte blue and chroma keying. His [funny] answer was "Super Black??, I'll have to try a bucket of that. Do you spray it on, brush or roll it?" <G> >>><<The only way I know of to generate a value of black below 7.5 IRE is to adjust it in a procamp with the pedestal or black level set-up before feeding the alpha to the key input on your switcher.>> >>That's work only if you're feeding a pure alpha signal, which doesn't need it since it is made up of pure blacks and whites, and shades of gray to give transparency. If you drop the pedestal on a color image you''ll pull the video level down as well. Pulling the video level up again will change the contrast, and the look of what one hopes is a carefully made image, besides, dropping the pedestal will not create a difference between lowest black and the next lowest level in the image. I only meant that the output from 3DS will be at black 7.5 IRE. Super Balck does not lower this when the _ALPHA_ channel is viewed from the frame buffer. However, you can of course lower the blacks in this alpha file with the procamp. This would in no way affect the color image blacks which would remain at 7.5 IRE. Since I've never actually done alpha channel keying they way you describe I'm not sure this lowering of the pedastle will have relevance. I only originally mentioned it because I thought you were confusing 3DS definition of what "super black" does and what you thought it should do. With respect to your problem, I take it you use the VTR control function from 3DS?? I agree that this makes the recording of the alpha split rather difficult. This is probably a wish list item. I don't see any way to record the color portion of the alpha rendering to a VTR to save disk space while splitting the alpha off to disk and recording later. I never used the alpha split when I used the VTR function with 3DS for my diaquest board so I never ran into it. Without going to a double rendering you would have to render to the disk both files and then lay them to tape individually. FWIW: I spent two years rendering and single framing from 3DS and found it was in my best interests to render to disk, then record the frames to tape from disk. It prevented unusual wear and tear on my VCR and tape. Also if something went wrong such as a corrupted frame of a stretch in the tape I could just go back and re-record. The lengthy rendering process was complete and the files safely on disk. Once I had a confirmed tape I erased the rendered files freeing up disk space for the next job. Even with this I still had trouble recording more than 1000 frames at a time due to tape stretch, wear and tear. I used a 7750 and a 5850 and the 5850 was far superior. Today I use a PAR and output to all formats and do 30 times the quantity of work to tape.
#131990From: Robb HarrissOct 29, 1994 7:42 AM
<<The real scenario is to be able to save to disk the alpha split file while recording to a VTR the main color file at time of rendering to VTR.>> Yup, that's it. We don't experience tape stretch with metal tape. We also don't get dropped frames. For the occasional frame with a drop out we rerender the offending frame. For highly critical applications we'll render to both tape AND disk. However, we have such a large quantity of graphics software on each work station that it is impractical to offload software to accept rendered files. Rendering is only the last step in the process for us and it is again impractical to work with nearly empty drives that are only waiting to hold a few hundred megabytes of rendered frames at a later date. We have multiple systems networked to both syquest and M/O drives on demand. But most of our primary rendering is handled on an overnight basis and it works best for us to simply run to tape. Saving the alpha split only to disk would save me both disk space and the extra time needed for secondary rendering.
#132024From: Don LandisOct 29, 1994 11:42 AM
OK, so I understand your goal but still don't see what it is you have against adding hard drive for your FxF operations. A 1 G western digital Mode 3 IDE drive was selling last week for $560, MO. so cost can't be the issue here. Curious about the metal tape issue and stretch. I had heard just the oposite and have experienced some tape stretch problems with betacam SP when the tape gets old, as in edit passes. It appears as a running or smearing of the picture and diminished audio response from the linear tracks. This may not be stretch but has been described by Sony rep as such. What's your opinion? Your operation sounds impressive. Where do you work?
#132059From: Robb HarrissOct 29, 1994 4:46 PM
Cost is ALWAYS an issue. We have about 9 gigs of storage lying around here in various formats. I have no desire to constantly add more, just to render more graphics. The inclination is to hold onto the rendered frames until the client has approved the final animation, and then hold onto the frames until it can be run onto a house tape for demo reel stuff. In the end the frames would want to hang around all too long, and then archiving takes up a lot of organization time and tapes. It's a busy place. I spend too much on drives right now to get more. We went through this for a long time when we used a service bureau to run to tape. That was an enormous headache. I broke down and bought all the gear necessary to render straight to tape: deck, controller, transcoder, waveform, vectorscope, monitoring and switching. It was a good investment. Productivity went up about 70%. We also tend to render more often for tests and catch a lot of errors before the deadline. It also alleviated all the storage problems, especially when there are several animation projects all at once. Then one goes to disk and the other to tape. When we're really pressed for time we'll go to tape with one machine while the other renders the last half of the animation to disk. When machine 1 is done then we run the other frames from disk to tape. The business with the traveling matt doesn't happen that often. But our Symbolics is equipped to handle it the way we want (when it's working, which it isn't). It's just another wish list item I suppose. We're a film and video production company. But we're a little different than most, especially here in the Midwest. We own all the equipment necessary to control post production and keep it inexpensive, while not owning an online room. We have EMC digital non-linear editing, a Dyaxis II digital audio workstation, two PC graphics workstations, and a Symbolics graphics workstation (dead as a door nail). We do complete projects in film or tape or we do a la carte work for other producers. We have post production wired so we spend an average of only 1.5 hrs in online (as opposed to 2 or 3 days). We never reuse tape. It just isn't worth it. The client buys the Betacam SP tape for the project, it's shot and then archived. It's loaded once into the NLE system, run once in online and then archived. Graphics tapes may have several projects strung on them one after the other, but in 7 or 8 years of using Betacam SP metal tape we've never had one problem. Drop outs may happen on a bad lot, but that;s extremely rare and more likely to be a problem for field tapes. The next step for us will be a DDR especially for multilayer compositing. Then storage will be a problem again, especially versus cost. -Robb !^NavFont01F0007MGHHOC4F94A
#132040From: Jonas Ruikis [ADESK]Oct 29, 1994 1:31 PM
<< polished-up wish.. >> got it..
#130682From: Daniel GagnonOct 23, 1994 12:43 AM
Hi! Realy, the way to go is to use those alpha channels… We've had to go through all this for some projects. If we want to output something to be keyed, then we use Yost's Clamp IXP to restrict the range of the luminance in VPost, using a matte. But this not realy an ideal solution. Sometimes we bypass this process by fiddlin' with the ambient light level (start with 60) to restrain our blacks. Since we always render to disk (we use an Abekas A65), we enforce matte generation for all our projects. 8-bit files are not that big…<g> Let us know if you find an elegant solution! Daniel RSB Video Inc. Montreal
#131097From: Robb HarrissOct 25, 1994 7:41 AM
The elegant solution is to use the alphas, just render them to tape, a perfect traveling matt. It's just the matter of not being able to save the alphas alone, without the corresponding full color images. I can do it with other systems I have so I know it can be done. I'd rather do it in a compositing system but that's more money. We use the SP because it's a convenient traveling format. It's certain that not everyone has an Abekas, or can transport files, and going to composite D2 has no advantages over component beta sp. D1 is a little silly, for the expense thought I've been toying with Abekas 601 file formats since there is some interesting software that will utilize it. But then I could create the Abekas files and use something like Diver to convert them to TGAs to be run to tape. Who knows? -Robb
#131207From: David J. MarksOct 25, 1994 1:38 PM
>> It's just the matter of not being able to save the alphas alone, >> without the corresponding full color images. You CAN do an alpha split. If you don't need the color portion, a batch file run from the video post module can probably delete the prior frame's image while saving the alpha file.
#131751From: Robb HarrissOct 27, 1994 10:48 PM
> >> It's just the matter of not being able to save the alphas alone, >>> without the corresponding full color images. >>You CAN do an alpha split. If you don't need the color portion, a batch file run >>from the video post module can probably delete the prior frame's image while >>saving the alpha file. That's how "alpha split" works by saving the alpha file to disk. However, it will not do so without render alpha on, 24 bit on, and render to disk on (even if you ask nicely). And again the color file is also saved. It is a tremendous workaround to have to write a VP to delete files. And in deleting files one runs the risk of deleting something necessary. I just want to render and save to disk ONLY the alpha files.
#131849From: David J. MarksOct 28, 1994 11:44 AM
>> I just want to render and save to disk ONLY the alpha files. Ahhh ha! That sounds like a good wishlist item.
#131870From: Jonas Ruikis [ADESK]Oct 28, 1994 1:17 PM
<< >> I just want to render and save to disk ONLY the alpha files. Ahhh ha! That sounds like a good wishlist item.>> got it.
#131915From: Don LandisOct 28, 1994 6:17 PM
Hi Jonas: To be sure you have it right, The real scenario is to be able to save to disk the alpha split file while recording to a VTR the main color file at time of rendering to VTR. This way the alpha split file can be single framed as a second operation to a second tape for the alpha key or traveling matte. I believe this is what Rob Harriss was trying to do as his disk space was to small for the size of all those main color files. I had mentioned to him that most people were rendering totally to disk first and then recording disk to VTR later but the issue with him is he didn't have enough the disk space.
#132062From: John EllisOct 29, 1994 4:49 PM
Robb, >> It is a tremendous workaround to have to write a VP to delete files. << No its not, its very easy. You just create a small batch file that says: del c:\3ds\images\pix*.tga then add a new line in VP and list it in the Process section.
#132083From: Don LandisOct 29, 1994 7:04 PM
Thanks, John for popping in. I have just started to use some more ops like calling batch files for VP to do file manipulation. I'm starting to get a mind set to tackle the scripting language too. Robb has a pretty impressive system. I think he would be a good candidate for a PAR or MAX, don't you? At any rate QT for the final run to beta SP should be high on his priority list. Hearing him talk about all that single framing even for tests just makes me cringe. Glad I don't do it anymore here. His problems have pointed out a weakness in 3DS's split alpha function and I hope Gary has been taking notes. People who do traveling matts for keying are indeed a rare breed. Speaking of rare breeds, where has Paul Lind been lately? I'll bet he had some solution for what Robb was trying to do.
#132094From: Yost GroupOct 29, 1994 8:21 PM
My impression of the alpha split issue is that Video Post makes it possible to easily get rid of the .tga file that you've written in case you just want to collect alpha files. – G
#132136From: Don LandisOct 30, 1994 6:14 AM
True, but since he was recording the color file directly to VTR would he be able to save the alpha split file to disk? I am going to answer this myself as I just looked. He can do it! As you put the option to save the file to disk in the record to VTR window. However, since I nolonger have my diaquest board I can't try it, so I have to ask can he render, save the file to disk, lay the color file to VTR, and finally erase the color file with a batch file called from the VP as a final step. He only wants to save the alpha split file on disk, not both. Additionally, he does not want to render twice to accomplish this.
#132130From: John EllisOct 30, 1994 2:10 AM
Don, >> I'm starting to get a mind set to tackle the scripting language too. << I wondered how you'd feel about that. I think you'll find it worthwhile as its a tremendously powerful feature and I expect that some people will concentrate on scripting moves etc. much like what was done for the ADO, so you'll have a pre-built set of moves etc. Whether you get into it enough to creating your own on a regular basis, knowing how it works will be give you invaluable insight. >> I think he would be a good candidate for a PAR or MAX, don't you?< Sounds like a perfect candidate, and probably the PAR would be the better choice in his situation. Get the frames off and yet still have them for archiving etc. I'm with you, I can't imagine how anyone can work that way. FXF is not exactly perfect as we've discussed and I've had more than a few occassions where a frame was dropped or glitched. The hassle of resetting 3DS to re-render the frame and drop it in (not to mention tracking that particular frame down) is more than enough reason to either invest in more HD space or get a PAR. At least is you have the frames stored you could do it through DOS. Pesonally I thought this whole thread was a non-issue and was suprised a week later to find it still going on. John
#132135From: Don LandisOct 30, 1994 6:14 AM
>>Pesonally I thought this whole thread was a non-issue and was suprised a week later to find it still going on. Yes, well that is partly my fault as I was fascinated with his excellent knowledge of the alpha keying and traveling matte issues but equally fascinated that with all that setup he had he was still fixated on a what I consider a total archaic and inefficient method of recording animation.
#132255From: Robb HarrissOct 30, 1994 9:50 PM
Nope, I have no interest in a PAR. The minimum standard for a next level for us is a DDR with everything at 601. Nothing we've seen coming off the PAR was worthwhile. Our turnaround on animation is too quick to have frames sitting around, waiting for various people to view them, besides I don't like wasting design time in the middle of the day laying frames from disk to tape. We have no problems with the tape based system, and three other uses for the tape deck (which we would have to have around even with the PAR) so it is a much better value than the single use PAR. The primary reason we don't already have a DDR is since we are not an on-line edit facility our end product (in this case animation and graphics) must be portable. Abekas D1 files aren't terribly and I'm not in the mood to buy a D1 deck. The SP works just great and can be read by nearly every facility in the region. As far as archaic goes (the tape deck is the one and only non-digital piece of gear in house) writing thousands of files to disk and then writing routines to erase immediately wins on that score. Why not have the program just do it right in the first place. Anyway, this thread is about Super Black, or at least it was supposed to be. I take it there is no real Super Black in 3DS as regards the real world? !^NavFont01F000FMGH66JF0MJF4HK`C8B4
#132339From: Don LandisOct 31, 1994 9:33 AM
>>I don't like wasting design time in the middle of the day laying frames from disk to tape. Neither do I, that's why the PAR has improved my weekly output to over 30 times the animation to tape in a week compared to what I used to do with single framing. My animations never see tape until the final version. I render my previews at reduced res for speed to the par and review motion, then when everything's just right I render at full res for the final output. I only do industrials through local broadcast with betacam SP component editing with the PAR so it is adaquate quality. You should at least give Quick Pass a try though. (I'm assuming you have a Diaquest controller, maybe not). Of course you might find you have too much time on your hands, won't look so busy to your boss and he just might give you more work to do in the same period of time.<BG> Hah! I had a boss like that once. Everytime I figured a way to make the job simpler he would just assign the other guy's responsibilities to me to do since I now had some more free time.:( No extra pay, just more work.:(( Now I own my own business! 🙂 True super black with 3DS? not as far as I'm concerned. As I said before, if I need to spread the blacks lower I use the procamp. All my frame buffers seem to limit the lower end to 7.5 IRE.
#132172From: Robb HarrissOct 30, 1994 11:58 AM
>>> It is a tremendous workaround to have to write a VP to delete files. << No its not, its very easy. You just create a small batch file that says: del c:\3ds\images\pix*.tga then add a new line in VP and list it in the Process section. << Ok, that doesn't sound too bad, but you have to understand that I'm the director and editor, not the CGI artist. Sometimes I have to did this stuff up to eliminate time delays in delivery. -Robb !^NavFont01F0008MGC2HH61D524
#132210From: John EllisOct 30, 1994 5:29 PM
>> Ok, that doesn't sound too bad << It really isn't. 3DS is marvelously flexible and has all kinds of things built in to cover unexpected requirements. The presumption is that there must be a way to do it and the question is "how ?" 🙂 Let me know how it works for you. Sometimes you need to allocate a little extra memory with Phar Lap to make it work but if you can shell out to DOS from 3DS you should be O.K. John
#132256From: Robb HarrissOct 30, 1994 9:50 PM
>> Let me know how it works for you. Sometimes you need to allocate a little extra memory with Phar Lap to make it work but if you can shell out to DOS from 3DS you should be O.K. << I gave the message to the animator for him to try. I'd still rather have a software switch for "save alpha to disk?"
#132289From: John EllisOct 31, 1994 3:46 AM
>>I gave the message to the animator for him to try. I'd still rather have a software switch for "save alpha to disk?" << Well Robb I don't mean to offend, but this thing about an Alpha switch has been going on for over a week and I think if this is your biggest concern you must live a very charmed life. I really wonder if you have any idea what your animator does or goes through in the course of making animations! Maybe its the editor in you that brings out this intense interest in having another switch. <G> Take care, John
#132510From: Robb HarrissOct 31, 1994 9:22 PM
>> Maybe its the editor in you that brings out this intense interest in having another switch << I'm not the one who wants another switch – the switch is already there. As it stands the software switching sequence is out of logic – you can select render alpha and then the alpha is not rendered. You can select to split alpha but nothing will happen. In these cases the switches should be grayed out or otherwise inactive. That's my point. As far as choices go, yes, I do want to be able to select alpha alone, or send alpha alone to disk. >> but this thing about an Alpha switch has been going on for over a week and I think if this is your biggest concern you must live a very charmed life << Well, actually, in a real world setting it was extremely important. The client asked for a traveling matt after the animation was completed and shipped. It cost an extra 10 hrs of rendering time and a day's delay. It's only a guess but having to render the full animation as whites and grays took longer than rendering the 8 bit alpha image alone. I'm the one who has to face the client. >> I really wonder if you have any idea what your animator does or goes through in the course of making animations! << Actually I believe I do, coming from an animation background and training. But we both have better things to do than watch a machine sit and render at the last minute. !^NavFont01F0017MG50HHB6MIwHJ6CMJCCHK5518F2