#The Flyer
42 messages in this thread
Just got back from a four day video seminar. A NewTek dealer had the Flyer on
display.
I think that it may be at least another month before any of us see a finished
unit. The dealer was having problems with the new version of Lightwave. It
crashed each time it was loaded. We tried to use the CG and it also seemed to
have problems.
The Flyer looked good, but the dealer had just gotten the unit in several hours
before the exhibit hall opened, so he was not familier with it and would not
let anyone else use it. So, all he did was playback scenes.
I did get to see a working Media Composer. Total price with all the bells and
wistles about $35,000. Very impressive. If I could swing that kind of a loan, I
would pick it up today and worry about the Flyer when it finally arrives. I
could use two editing systems.
My wife was talking to the wife of the dealer and was told that there are
people willing to buy anybodies order on the Flyer. IOW, those of us who
ordered the Flyer at the old price, could sell our order to people who now want
to buy.
Fred
Your guess about "another month or so (before Flyers start being shipped)" may
turn out to be accurate. I have heard that Newtek has called people to confirm
their orders and to tell them that their's will be shipped in December.
Nick
Nick:
Lee Stranahan spoke at the VTU Hawaiian simnar. There he said that,
"The Flyer will ship this Fall. Of course the last day of fall is December
21st."
Personaly I believe that NewTek will remain quiet until the Toaster
Expo. They will anounce a final shipping date there. (or not)
The best part about waiting is that money is accumulating. By the time
the damned thing ships I'll have enough to buy a car too.
Boo-Radley
Hayes Visual Communication
Brad,
I have heard a rumor that Newtek will initially only ship to 4000 owners
because that version of the software is finished, whereas those with 2000 based
systems will have to wait a bit longer. Have you heard anything about this?
If true, then I would be getting my unit ahead of schedule and better get my
charge cards paid down in a hurry!
BTW, there's another reason why waiting for the Flyer isn't all that bad; The
price of hard drives is still dropping steadily. Hopefully Newtek will have
added more "approved" models to the list of those that will function properly
with a Flyer system. Locally I have seen prices on 9 gig units as low as $3200.
Supposedly there will be 20 gig drives shipping by Feb/March, further
pressuring smaller (never thought I would refer to anything over a gig as
smaller) drives down in price, thus making Flyer's price increases eaier to
take.
Frank
Maybe, if we're lucky, it won't ship for another year or two!! <g>
GK
Gary,
>>Maybe, if we're lucky, it won't ship for another year or two!! <<
Maybe by that time we'll be seeing a Power PC version.
Frank
PMFJI: There will be a delay for 2000-based Flyers. Newtek needs the
extra time to work out a method of providing color for the clip croutons
on the ECS machines.
IMHO they should make retargetting the display to a 24-bit card a
priority. Matter of fact, wouldn't it be nice if CEI does become the new
manufacturer of Amigas, and actually makes a model available with 24-bit
display capability built in?
Wishing…
Trent/ReAnimators
>> IMHO they should make retargetting the display to a 24-bit card a
>> priority.
I would think that would take a major rewrite of the software and also a
revision of the hardware, as many of the Toaster's capabilities (like the
non-fade transitions) are based on Amiga hardware. (If it _didn't_
require massive redesign, don't you think they'd have had a PC version out
by now?)
>> Matter of fact, wouldn't it be nice if CEI does become the new
>> manufacturer of Amigas, and actually makes a model available with
>> 24-bit display capability built in?
That'd be great — and would also solve the above problem (except for
those not buying new Amigas. 😉
Hmm, a new possibility springs to mind…I remember that Dave Haynie
mentioned something in a conference about AAA, DSP, etc. being implemented
_first_ as add-ons for the 4000 (and, I might imagine the 3000) before new
Amigas were made. That kind of retargeting would probably solve the
problem too.
– Jim, on AutoPilot!
PMFJI: Would it be possible to have AGA graphics with 3.1 running on a
AMiga 2000 or 3000 with a zorro slot 24-bit board? That would be an
elegant solution.
Hank/Videology Where you get all the P.O.M.P. under all
circumstances.
Hank: With my setup (2000/EGS) I can use a maximum 1280×960 WB with 256
colors. Just installed 3.1 and works fine. The only drawback is that
very few programs as of right now, support the WB display enough to allow
getting their screens to work.
The problem with 1280×960 WB is getting a font that is big enough and
clean enough! :->
Trent/ReAnimators
Would you have any input as to whether NewTek could use the EGS to emulate
the A4000's AGA graphics in the Flyer storyboard thumbnail croutons? And
also in the A4000 specific DVE's? That would bring the A2000 and A4000
Toaster system to equal software capabilities. Maybe they could also do
easy anim's in AGA from memory also.
Hank/Videology Where you get all the P.O.M.P. under all
circumstances.
<<Would you have any input as to whether NewTek could use the EGS to
emulate the A4000's AGA graphics in the Flyer storyboard thumbnail
croutons? And also in the A4000 specific DVE's?>>
That's certainly what I'd hope would happen. Be it Picasso, EGS or
whatever, allowing AGA-style screen/fx on 2000-based systems would be the
cat's butt!
Given the fact that NewTek stated there were roughly 85,000 Toaster
systems in existance prior to the 4000, you'd think they'd be looking at
it, but…
The only way to let them know is to let them know. I certainly think it
would be a cost-effective solution for end users, but I'm not a
programmer, so I don't know what's involved at that end…
Trent/ReAnimators
I'm glad the idea is not crazy – I'll be talking to them Monday and start
pressing the issue, although top priority right now it getting the Flyer
Demos to dealers and the final product finished and to customers.
Hank/Videology Where you get all the P.O.M.P. under all
circumstances.
Agreed. I'll see if I can generate some dicussion on NewTek's BBS, as
well. The sysop there regularly passes concerns on to the right people.
Trent/ReAnimators
Trent!
whats up! I've read your thread about having an A2000 w/ and EGS in
it. I have the same w/ a Zeus '040 and WB 2.1. I want to know if 3.1
relieved some of the problems associated w/ egs and wb. Whenever I switch
the wb over to EGS, it crashes after either opening a window or menu.
Using EGS 6.2 relieved this a bit, but not much. As far as retargeting
programs like ADpro, WB, Real 3D and so on EGS has been useless. Any
suggestions!?!?! I'm running a 4.4 a2000 motherboard w/ a 1mb agnus but
an old denise.
CyberCruising at ya from Brooklyn, NY on Autopilot,
—Archie
Hey Arthur!
The 3.1 upgrade is, so far, completely transparent to all our 'pro'
software/hardware (tho it did slow down Civilization a bit! :->)
I've never had any problems using ADPro, ImageFX, or the WB on it.
A couple of things come to mind in your description of your 2000:
4.4 Motherboard: All I've ever heard is that anything older than the Rev
6 motherboards are trouble.
Zeus '040: May be a bit flaky depending on the 68040.library you have.
In order of age:
Version 37.4 – Library in use when the GVP 040 Combo boards first appeared
Version 37.10 – followed a few months later, generally pretty stable. I'd
recommend trying this one first, if it's not already your current
040.library.
Version 37.30 – Most current available 040.library-ships with the 3.1
upgrade (at least with the one I got)
The trick for my EGS setup (GVP '040) was to move the cpu and gvpcpuctrl
command lines out of the startup-sequence and into the user-startup.
The only complaint I have about WB 3.1, is I can't figure out how to get
rid of the ugly green hilights on the mouse pointer and wait icons.
Anyone know what the trick is?
The other small concern is that the bootup sequence produces a completely
black screen. You don't get the workbench screen and the version info,
etc anymore. A minor pain if you have an error in your user-startup,
which was listed out on bootup with 2.1.
In any case, I'd suggest trying the card in another machine if you can
possibly find one. You can then eliminate the EGS card as a cause…
Trent/ReAnimators
They may very well ship to 4000 owners initially, but the individual that I
cited earlier as getting the call from Newtek has a 2000 (which the Newtek rep
confirmed during the phone call), and he was told to expect his Flyer in
December.
Nick
Nicholas,
That's great news (if Newtek makes that ship date for 2000 owners with advance
Flyer orders).
Frank
I personaly don't think that rumor is true. Based on what I know of the
Flyer there is NO differance between 2000, 3000 and 4000 units. the
software is identical and relitively small. However The Toaster 4.0
software is differant and Huge. I personaly would like to get My Hardware
and switcher, and wait on T-Paint Lightwave and the rest.
WHAT FOLLOWS IS PURE SPECULATION! NOT TO BE TAKEN AS FACT OR EVEN RUMOR!!!
Also another thing People are forgetting is that the Flyer only gets
"power" from the Amiga it's in….. You COULD see a power PC version
before you know it. Although I still don't know what you will do for a
switcher and all the other goodies. But rest assured that NewTek is not
stupid there is little chance of them going away simply because the amiga
may. (ouch that hurt to say). people rarely think this way but; If they
have been working on the Flyer since the toaster was released. Think about
waht they must be working on now that the Flyer is about to be released.
It's like the air force and the stealth. As soon as people knew about
Stealth planes there was Arora. Now that every body knows about Arora
there is Black Manta.
Boo-Radley
Hayes Visual Communication
PMFJI:
As a dealer I was told that the dealer Flyer demo must be installed in an
A4000, as it would not work in an A2000. Guess that means that the A2000
version is not out yet.
Hank/Videology Where you get all the P.O.M.P. under all
circumstances.
From what I was told, the dealer versions are not the Final version. Does
the Dealer version come with the complete Toaster 4.0 (T-paint, CG and the
rest)?
Boo-Radley
Hayes Visual Communication
It is my understanding that the dealer software is as complete as NewTek
has finished it. There will be changes, made during the Beta testing, to
options, screens, requesters, etc. The new TPaint has already been seen
last March at NAB'94, so some version of it should be included in the
dealer demo.
Since we were late to sign on as Partners Plus dealers, having started the
company 10/1/94, we are down the line for getting our demo. But it's
ordered and will be coming. Current estimate is week after Thanksgiving.
The dealer demos are coming with all software and demo clips installed on
the Flyer harddrives. When the software is finalized, we will be getting
the 60-70 disks and, hopefully, the CD-ROM versions.
At present, my demo schedule is filled for three weeks.
Hank/Videology Where you get all the P.O.M.P. under all
circumstances.
Frank –
I've got a highly-placed source who tells me that a major manufacturer of
hard drives is expecting to sell their 20gig'ers at the same price the 9's
are at today.
– Joe
Joe,
That information doesn't suprise me a bit. The only issue for me personally is
how long I can afford to wait for Newtek to approve firmaware on the drives in
the existing marketplace. Every day that I wait to get my Flyer fully
configured and in day-to-day use, is costly with regard to lost business. I
have quite a few projects coming up that are bid based on inexpensive updating
of the material (perfect for NLE) so even a savings of a few thousand dollars
might be less than desirebla if it comes at the cost of losing business that is
immediately at hand.
Frank
Frank,
The story I get (that to me is the most plausible) is that the DEMO units will
only work on A4000's but the first production run units will run on A2000's as
well.
RE: the HDs. MicroSearch has warned that you need more than disk model number
to insure FLyer compatibility. They say you also need to know the ROM rev.
They claim that the performance varies widely from ROM to ROM and can fool you
– might work for the first 70 percent og the drive OK, but be unable to "Fly"
the last 30%. They claim you are really taking chances with any drive that
does not have a Flyer Compatibility sticker from NewTek on the drive.
The other thing I've found out is that the D2 lossless will not be part of
Flyer Rev 1 software. It will ship in later versions of the software. However,
to actually be able to use it the two HDs (or HD arrays) that handle Flyer
video will have to support disk-to-disk spindle synchronization and I'm told,
very few drives can support that.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne,
>>The other thing I've found out is that the D2 lossless will not be part of
Flyer Rev 1 software.<<
Any ideas as to what quality we should expect with the first shipping version
of the Flyer? If it isn't at least Betacam SP quality when I do my first edit,
then I think I will probably get my attorney on the phone. I've been a staunch
Newtek supporter for a long time, but if they can't deliver the quality they
promised, then I think we're talking fraud here. After all, we have NO garantee
that there will be any future versions of Flyer software for the Amiga
platform. So I think we should hold out for something that we can live with
should Newtek take a dive. Living on the PROMISE of what is supposedly going to
come at some future date is unnaceptable in the light of the type of investment
Newtek is asking for just to meet the minimum system requirements. Sorry to
sound so negative, but this recent news from you about the lossless issue
distresses me greatly. The main appeal of the Flyer system for me (and others I
am sure) is it's promised quality at an affordable price. If it can't deliver
on that front in the first shipping rev, then it's NOT ready to ship. I don't
think I am alone in the opinion that we've long past the time when we should
pay for the privelege of beta testing an incomplete and misprepresented
product.
>>the two HDs (or HD arrays) that handle Flyer video will have to support
disk-to-disk spindle synchronization<<
Any ideas as to WHICH drives currently support this feature? I would like to
know so that I do NOT purchase anything that doesn't.
PS> WHere did your info i=on the lossless issue come from? This is the first
I've heard of it, and I have been following Flyer progress quite closely.
Frank
"I don't think I am alone in the opinion that we've long past the time when we
should pay for the privelege of beta testing an incomplete and misprepresented
product."
That makes at least two of us.
Stop and consider for a moment that NewTek doesn't seem to have ever actually
published solid specifications on the Flyer. Everything that I've seen has been
hype or second-hand stories. The one and only Flyer brochure that I've ever
seen was notable for its lack of any firm specifications.
Considering just how skilled NewTek is at hyping its products, this is
getting kind of disturbing.
Jerry
I agree, but it can also be said that NEWTEK has made very few actual
claims. 75% of what people know about it is word of mouth and a few brief
articals. I have seen it demoed 3 times know. Most recently at the VTU
Siminar in Hawaii. This is the one that scares me the most. Lee Streanahan
was schedualed to give a Flyer class. Well lee now works for Newtek in
case you didn't know. The Flyer that they sent with him didn't work well
enough to do the class. He did do a short demo though. The reason, Jim
Plant told me was that they had just changed the chip sets on the Flyer
card and Lee did not have the revised software to go with them (or
something like that). He did discuss a few techniques that he had come up
with. But you would think that in late October they would at least have
ONE working Flyer to show to a group of paying professionals.
Boo-Radley
Hayes Visual Communication
PMFJI – Several dealers already have working Flyers as dealer demo (read
Beta) systems. They have been shipping dealer systems for several weeks,
making each one by hand and then checking it out throughly. All of the
software comes loaded on the Flyer's 2 2GB drives with a promise of a
finished version as soon as customer systems are shipping.
So far, NewTek has delivered all products to spec, albeit sometimes late.
What I have seen in demos, as well as what some of my customers have seen,
have created major interest and many orders.
Keep the faith – if Amiga survives, the video market will be on end!!
Hank/Videology Where you get all the P.O.M.P. under all
circumstances.
Henry:
Don't get me wrong, I fully belive that when the Flyer ships (Final
Version) It will not only work it will blow people away even if you have
seen the demos. I also belive that it will ship before christmas. I think
we wil find out the final details at the VTU Expo. I was the one who told
my local dealer of them and I am the Very first on the list to get one
from my dealer.
Boo-Radley
Hayes Visual Communication
"The Flyer that they sent with him didn't work well
enough to do the class."
That's absolutely chilling.
What bothers me the most is the absolute lack of reports of successful demos
from dealers. If they've gotten their betas – and I believe they have – where
are all the excited users with their fact-filled reports? Doesn't sound like
anyone is really showing it off – and that's bad news.
Jerry
Hi Jerry!
Ok. You want enthusiastic dealer reports, you got them! We got our dealer
demo/beta unit on thursday night.
It's a clean looking single board with chips on both sides and little tiny
heat sinks on some of the chips. Three ID50M connectors for SCSI devices,
two 9 pin ID connectors for RS422/Time Code, and one 10 pin header that
connects to the Toaster itself.
Our demo unit came with two 2GB hard drives (I think they are the IBM but
I haven't looked in the chasis) in a nice 2 bay chasis.
The manual is a good couple of hundred pages, but still not complete. One
floppy disk installed the drivers that bring up Fly0: and Fly1: and the
switcher.main and XXX.bin files (the files that are likely to be upgraded
in the future through beta/gamma releases).
Fly0: has tons of cool new effects, and the CG/Paint/Switcher/Flyer
software. Lightwave was not shipped with the demo system. The old
Toaster software runs just dandy with the new Flyer libraries/support
installed, BTW.
Fly1: has the Newtek clips that everybody has seen at demos, Tim, Brad,
and the Drag Racing.
We have digitized all sorts of stuff from test patterns being generated by
a \\\FAST Video Machine (No stinking tape in the middle) to BetaCam stuff
to LaserDisk Stuff, to Betamax and VHS. Looks GORGEOUS!!!!!
According to NewTek, we are digitizing at Lossless D2 resolution, however
with a Alpha/Beta version of their algorithm. (There are not any
requesters alowing the user to specify the resolution of digitized clips
in the software we have).
CG Overlays and Crawls and Scrolls do not work in the software we have.
Toaster Paint works except for the Process Clip functions. Lightwave, as
I said before, was not shipped with our software.
The Switcher Interface is solid and it is easy to create Projects, with
Clips, Effects, Framestores, etc.
We are getting a little over ten minutes of audio and video on each two
gigabyte hard drive.
Did I say it looks gorgeous?! 😉
-John
-John
Thanks, John.
But what you've said scares me: lots of stuff missing or inoperative. I don't
want to spend a bunch of money to be a beta tester.
Don't get me wrong, I want the product – but only when it's really finished
and ready for market.
Jerry
Thanks for the info John!
Trent/ReAnimators
Frank,
I gather there are somewhere between 4 and 6 quality settings, the highest
being D2 Lossless. I was told that one would be missing. So then next level
down will be there, unfortunatly I don't know what it is.
I'm also not that worried about a follow on for the Flyer. I think the first
rev is a "get a working viersion out" and there will be at least one "then
we'll fix the bugs and add the finishing touches" rev. I don't thing NewTek
wants to try to make a market in a new platform with a bunch of so obviously
cheated, and very vocal Amiga users hounding them. It's just you might have
to wait until about July (just a guess on my part) to get the "final" version.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne,
The software on demo at my local dealer has no apparent setting differences
whatsoever. In ohter words, what you see is what you get (and it looks great
BTW) on those particular units. I certainly understand the fact that the dealer
units are still beta test, but in light of the fact that each of the dealer
units are hand built, I wonder about the quality of the unit that I will be
shipped. The software the dealer showed was still unfinished and exhibited bugs
and major deficiencies.
Regarding Newtek's concern for Amigans; I agree with you that it wouldn't serve
their purpose to torque us off, but that assumes that they have that in their
iminant plans. My concern is that thru no direct intention, they don't survive
long enough to keep their promise. While Newtek is somewhat financially
sucessful at the moment, I suspect it wouldn't take much in the way of a
financial setback to derail their current plans. Making the move to another
platform with hardware as well as software is costly. Marketing costs to
establish name recognition in the PC/Mac communities would dwarf what they
spent on Amiga & Broadcast pubs. I am hoping (as I assume many others are) that
Newtek thrives with great sucess of the Flyer, Lightwave multi-platform, and
especially 4.0 upgrades for existing Toaster owners. Alas, sometimes hope (even
though springing eternal) is not enough when times get rough.
Frank
Frank, Knowing the bad boys of Alcatraz only by rep, and adding that to some
unconfirmed tid-bits I heard a while back, I wouldn't be surprised if there is
some reudimentary form of Toaster running on other platforms. However, as the
tidbits went, they required on-board Amiga custom chips that C= wouldn't
license to them. So, if the winner of Amiga tech licenses to NewTek, the jump
may occur. I assume if that happened there would be some sort of
cross-platform "trade-up".
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne,
The guru behind the Emplant claims that ALL of the Amiga's custom chips can be
emulated thru DSP/RISC architecture and make the possibility of an Amiga Clone
card that fits in the palm of your hand possible. If what he says is true, and
the CBM deal goes completely sour, then it opens the door to clone manufacture
and work alike cards for other platforms. After all, who's ng to tie up all the
financial resources required to legally block such an action?
All things considered, it would appear that THIS may be the solution that
Newtek needs to pursue to extend the life of the Toaster as a hardware product
on other platforms.
Frank
"After all, who's ng to tie up all the financial resources required to legally
block such an action?"
Patent and intellectual property lawyers who specialize in handling such
claims on a contingency basis, for a start. There are also investment groups
around who buy up causes of action like this. There have been several such
cases won in the past several years.
Jerry
Frank, >Clone card that fits in the palm of your hand possible. If what he says
is >true, and the CBM deal goes completely sour, then it opens the door to
clone >manufacture and work alike cards for other platforms. After all, who's
ng to >tie up all the financial resources required to legally block such an
action?
Irve baby? – Prudential? Even if the deal falls through SOMEONE still owns the
rights. A smart sleaze-ball might wait until a few hunderd thousand units have
moved, then file suit to stop the shipments, settle out of court for dough,
royalties or, even a part of the company producing the clones.
What a nightmare – Uncle Irv in the driver's seat again!
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne:
I also have heard some tid-bits, from an inside and reliable source. I
also have sepculated that they would release a Toaster for some other
platform. Now I belive that you will SOON see a Toaster with out an amiga
attached. However when my source was questioned about what machine they
may have in mind he replied "What makes you think you will need a computer
at all…" There for I believe that you may see a standalone Toaster.
Now the conversation was about the Flyer, which he assured only takes
power from the Amiga. However I think that the Flyer without a Toaster has
its uses but is severly limited and kinda' leaves their whole NO OFF LINE
philosophy in the dust.
If however they did go with another platform I would Bet heavily on a
windows machine. After all I havent heared them talking about Lightwave
for the Mac…
Boo-Radley
Hayes Visual Communication
Nick,
NewTek called me about a month ago to find out which Amiga I had and which
version of the Toaster I had. At that time, they told me they would be shipping
by November.
I guess it is better that they take their time and get it right.
Fred