graphics boards
39 messages in this thread
Roy,
Did you notice the brief mention of this board in the January
AmigaWorld? They didn't say much, other than saying it was a 10 meg board,
equiped with a 34020. Dual frame buffer with painting & digitizing
capabilities…. oh yeah, it's called the Videomaster-32. BTW, kudos to
NewTek for starting a dubious trend in terminally cute product names. The
same newsblurb in AW tells about a "Video Blender" and "Mixmaster" software
from Vidtech. 🙂
-Jim
Jim,
I just hope that it doesn't take PP&S as long from announcement to
shipment as NewTek took with the Toaster. Let's hope we see the d*mn thing
before 1992!!!!
-RSL-
Now, now. It's not fair to visit the NewTek ghost on PP&S. THey showed a
working, no visible wires, plug in board in a standard Amiga, on top of the
table, at the Disney AmiExpo.
That is such a far cry from the kludged togther wire-mangled mess that was
under the counter at the NewTek booth for a long time that it's not funny.
I suspect that all you'll have to do is give them time to handle the FCC
nightmare, purchase some parts stock, and out it will come.
I don't think you're gonna get "Toasterized" again.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Ben, you're imagining things… Even the very first Toasters were
reasonably nice looking. Yes, they were prototypes, but why is that a
problem? With hardware, at least you can look at the final product, and
determine whether it's well-crafted from a mechanical standpoint. With
software, something can be ludged-together and a tangled mess, and you'd
never know it from doing a "LIST".
I'm not imagining anything. I got a look under the counter at the L.A.
AmigaExpo when the unit was getting some attention from someone in the
booth. Wires everywhere, and it was living under a curtain.
The only problem I have, or ever had, with the Toaster product was how long
it took them to make the thing. I don't even have a problem with bringing a
prototype to a show, assuming you plan to deliver the thing within a
reasonable period of time. I don't consider several years to be reasonable.
I don't consider the time it took us to deliver the HAM-E from concept to
first shipped unit (9 months) reasonable, though. :^)
I think the Toaster is a marvel; I think it is a very nice toy for those
who want to do fancy video FX for people who won't be looking at the
results very closely. I sat in front of one for several days at a _dead_
show in Billings, Montana. I used it, ToasterPaint (I'm _still_ laughing at
ToasterPaint) and LightWave for all three days, or sat by Tom Miller, a
Montana-based Amiga artist, while _he_ used it. I think I'm pretty familiar
with it, from render thru paint to FX. I also have a vrey good idea what
the output image quality is. For the price, it's worth every penny,
assuming you have those needs.
But I'm not going to give NewTek any Kudos for getting the thing to market;
I think they did a very sorry job. As far as I know, you still can't buy
one to use in your home, by the way.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
It's a good thing you weren't at the CES so long ago, when Amiga Corp.
demo'd the original Amiga crates. It took a similar amount of time to
deliver to the Amiga, as I recall. As I've said about innumerable
products, such as Amiga Live or whatever, no one in the world wanted to
ship more than the person who's making the gizmo. So I'm sure Newtek would
have loved to deliver it earlier. Even with its unpleasant delays, it's
still hit the market at a good time. I remember when Newtek first handed
out flyers about the Toaster. I do remember they did it as a preemptive
strike against some other company's video board which wasn't shipping at
the time, either. As for its output, it's the best NTSC I've seen come out
of an Amiga, and all the people cramming the Newtek booths certainly want
NTSC. ToasterPaint is DigiPaint, period, which has seen market success to a
great degree. As for their delays versus the HAM-E delays, I'm certain
that the Toaster includes much more software than HAM-E. Maybe they didn't
realize how much software would be needed when they announced the Toaster.
The Toaster does include more software than the HAM-E. By about 25%, maybe,
and that only because of Lightwave.
The NTSC out of the Toaster is excellent.
For NTSC. :^)
The Toaster is excellent.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
I count about 1.2 megs of code on disk, not counting data, objects, fonts,
etc. They say about 350K of that is pure assembler; the rest is Manx 3.6
C. So there's 900 K of HAM-E code? Just keeping you honest. 🙂
Well, let me see. :^) Code only:
RPaint: 475k (just looked at the BLink output) renderer: 98k fe: 85k ip:
412k hampaint: 313k convert: 43k
I see 1426k, total, now supporting the HAM-E. Neither the ip or the
hampaint program are released yet, ip is due out within a week or two if
the creek don't rise, hampaint should be b4 xmas given the same caveat. :^)
So, there is 701k available to the users (on the disk, as you put it). I'm
not counting ARexx scripts, or documents, etc. Although I suppose the ARexx
scripts *are* supplied programs.
Is this a game of "mine is bigger than yours???" (grin!)
Many of us have "flamed" at Ben for expression of his opinion in a
"flamboyant" fashion. I personnally have been absolutely furious as Ben
however, it has always envolved "an ordering and priority of issues" and
not about validity of points.
I tend to agree with your comment on professionalism. This is a little
different than, say a magazine, since others (such as yourself) will not
necessarily let a strong comment go by.
I see to remember that one of the delays was due to the "exorbitant cost of
RAM" problem. So at least that problem was beyond their control. But I'm
not convinced that the product would've been any less hot or in demand if
it HAD contained "golden" RAM. It did take forever but I'm just glad it's
here now and drawing such favourable attention.
I'm glad it's here too. Being a hardware type, I tend to view that
particular "reason" a little differently than the average consumer.
Being a software publisher who took a long time to get the product out the
door, "glad it's here now" works for me too! 🙂
Groan… First off, do you really think NewTek wanted to wait this long to
get the beast out? The line is: when it is done, it is done. I do not
think you should stand back and criticize how long it took NewTek to bring
this product to market. The better (and much more logical) criticism
should be based on 'announcing' a product before it is a product. That is
not what you said.
There is nothing wrong with bringing a prototype to a show no matter how
long it takes for it to come to market, at least in my opinion. A show is
just that a "show". Golly if only released products were to be seen, shows
would be very boring.
I sure would like to see you (Blackbelt) design and bring to market
anything as sophisticated as the Toaster. Personally I think you need to
apologize to NewTek.
Still laughing at ToasterPaint? Ben, get a life.
My only comment; you deserve what'll happen to you when Bem reads your…
message <grin> –Eet–
It wasn't worth it, Eet – he "has no data", as a professor of mine used to
put it. :^)
I admit that I had a bad day and when I read Ben's message. His message
sent me into orbit. It is difficult to maintain ones perspective when I
realize that NewTek probably would never get to see that message and
respond to it.
I do have a problem with one developer taking swipes at another. All the
developers should work a bit more together. I think Ben doesn't realize
how harsh his messages tend to be. I sure do wish he had a usenet account
so that he could see all the flamage Black Belt has gotten over their
policies in abroad. Perhaps being a target of heavy (unfair) criticism
would reduce the amount of criticism Ben puts out.
I apologize to Ben for telling him to get a life, but I stand behind what I
said about NewTek.
I've seen a lot of the UseNet flames. It's nearly impossible to manage the
UseNet traffic via CIS EMAIL; and $28/hr access charges for long distance
is considerably more than we feel UseNet is worth.
We have decided to stick with the commercial networks; people on them seem,
in general, to provide a lot lower noise content in their messages –
probably because they have to pay for the services.
Note that our policies were modified just about the time those power supply
and disk update issues were raised… and that was a great example of
stupid messages over there – we mentioned that we would charge $10 for a
disk update – some twerp flamed us because he didn't think it cost us that
much to make a disk. What we charge is our own business, of course.
In any case, we won't be dealing with usenet any more, in any fashion.
Mark, one thing – I don't mind critisism. When it's on the ball, I try and
adjust right away. Sometimes I stew for a few days, and *then* I adjust.
:^) When it's not on the ball, like virtually all of the usenet messages
(with the exception of the Euro user with the power supply and update
complaints, which we addressed immediately) I can not only take it, I
normally take the time to tell reasonable critics what I think, and often
I'll take an UNreasonable critic and rip them into theor compnent
molecules. :^) I like it, in fact.
As for critisizing other developers – I am a peer, and I feel I have every
right to make any such statement I please. You may then respond as you feel
appropriate. I NEVER flame a developer for the "heck of it", and I try not
to do it "offhand", either. The ToasterPaint comments were anything but
offhand – I've been living, eating, and breathing paint issues for months
now, and I have a substantial backround in image processing from previous
efforts. I meant what I said, and I still feel that way. It's a *very* poor
effort, and I hope it's just a stopgap, because that's all I see it being
worth.
Ben, what was the final resolution with that Swedish person? Part of the
flamage on the net was that people heard the complaint but didn't hear a
satisfactory conclusion.
The guy sounded pretty innocent. Perhaps it would be ridiculously
expensive to send him the right power supply, but he didn't realize that
when he bought it. Also the price ($300) normally includes a power supply,
so IMHO it makes sense for it to be somewhat cheaper if he doesn't get one.
Of course, that is a BB policy decision. But he didn't know and now he is
faced with paying $50 to ship it back if he doesn't like the way things
were resolved.
Anytime you purchase a product from overseas (either way), you are faced
with severe shipping costs. It's always a risk, of course. I regret that,
but we are not responsible for it.
The power supply issue is not "resolved", and won't be. Part of the problem
with Euro supplies is not only that they are different from US supplies,
they are often different from each other, IE wall plugs vary, etc. Next,
there is the issue of the equivalent of UL approval and etc, which is no
longer a problem when the user buys an approved supply locally. We have
not, and will not in the future, supplied wall warts for the Euros. We try
and make this clear on the phone when we take orders. This fellow ordered
by FAX; that makes things a bit more difficult, as it requires us to FAX
them, sometimes multiple times, and the products margin won't support that
king of outlay for a sales prospect.
The disk issue is resolved; for $10.00, a user can get an upgrade. If
overseas shipping is desired via air, an extra charge (whatever it costs
us) will be incurred.
We have yet to hear from the "swedish person" directly. Until we do, we
can't do a thing.
Mark, IMAO, Ben prides himself on being frank. Personally, I find it an
impossible way to behave. On Ben it fits. He doesn't intend to hurt
people's feelings (at least I don't think so), but at least you don't have
to worry about him giving false opinions. He's a bit hard on the nerves,
but you get used to it 🙂 –Eet–
Mark, I'm in a good mood, so this message won't have you running for a fire
extinguisher. :^)
I have good reason to laugh at a paint product where you can't even see
what you're doing, except in a very vague way. In any case, it's my
opinion, and I'm entitled to it.
I have no argument with the toaster's sophistication. It's awonderful piece
of hardware.
Unless you have a good idea of what hardware I've designed, you *might*
want to just inquire a little before you assume I'm just Ye Olde Fiddler in
the basement, eh? :^)
As for a life, I have a very fine life. :^)))
Its is _not_ your opinion that bothers me, it is the lack of
professionalism you show when you express your opinion. "Laughing at
ToasterPaint" would be not be considered a statement from somebody who has
a opinion, but rather from a person who thinks he could do a better job. If
you can do a better job, why don't you do it? Amaze the entire toaster
community!
Further I _know_ who you are and what you have done. You can't be on
CompuServe and not know you. I have respect for you and your products but
only when you show the same respect to others.
I realize that you may think that I am being a "pain", but really I seem to
be the only one that calls you down when you make statements as harsh as
you often do. Either I am overly sensitive (which I doubt) or the others
just don't care to tell you.
Anyway, I have made my points and I hope that you understand.
BTW: You should not assume that I am just another "user" in the mirky
Amiga waters as well as you do not know what I have done either. 🙂
"Lack of professionalism"
I've already done a better job, Mark. Our paint software is *far* more
powerful than DigiPaint or ToasterPaint. The only things in those programs
that we did not have were the blending functions, and those have been added
this week.
Looking the other way, the number of functions that our paint software has
that Toaster Paint doesn't have are legion. No kidding. Try an anti-aliased
brush rotation. Heck, try a brush rotation at all. :^) Try a lens focus
operation. "What's that?" I hear you cry. :^)
There's plenty more, and more added all the time.
You can use our paint with the toaster, too – it saves 24 bit IFF. And, of
course, you can see what you're painting while you paint it, a big
difference from ToasterPaint.
One big push that will come shortly is to change a lot of our code to
assembler; we're concentrating on features right now, not speed – but that
will come.
You have *no* idea what I have done, Mark. I've worked for Anilam, IBM,
Centuri, Bally-Midway, MCI (the recording console people), and some other
interesting places. I have a resume and recommendations that are a lot of
fun to read. I have several patents (not that patents are useful… they
just indicate accomplishment) and I also have a very full life in other
respects. If I feel that Toaster Paint (or any other product) is a joke,
I'll say so, and with the full weight of my experience and etc behind it.
If that irritates you, so be it. Maybe that's good.
Finally, I did not assume you were just another user, Mark – If you look
back you'll see I only said in my direct reply that I felt I had reason to
say what I said about ToasterPaint, and that I thought that the toaster
itself was a nice item.
You, on the other hand have said "if you can do a better job, why don't you
do it?" Without any direct knowledge of what our paint can do (or you would
NEVER have said that). You also said something in your initial message that
was similar, though it escapes me at the moment… it was far enough off
base to cause me to comment to someone else that "you had no data", which
si
Bem, you didn't use what I thought the obvious reply was to, "why don't you
do it better yourself"… You're too busy creating other nifty products to
take the time to do it. At least, I hope you are. 🙂
–Eet–
Well Ben, what can I say? Your *wonderful*! 🙂
As far as comparing your paint program to the Toasters paint program goes.
I am not sure I find it a valid comparison. First off your HAM-E hardware
works in realtime and the Toaster board does not. I believe that should
make a difference in your comparison. You were complaining about the fact
that the Toaster does not allow you to paint on it in realtime where you
not? Do you really think it is possible to do that?
Ben you are welcome to say what you want and how you want. I will
certainly post when I think that you are taking a shot that is not exactly
on the fair side.
Understand this, I am not really defending the toaster, but defending
NewTek. They have delivered a very sophisticated product and with (IMHO)
excellent software. Yes, ToasterPaint could be better, but certainly it is
not a "joke" as there are no replacement programs for it. Using your
software to create images and then save them to IFF24 and reload them to
see them on the Toaster is not exactly what I would call "easy" either.
Anyway, Ben I am not questioning your technical skills I simply question
the delivery of your opinion. I am not known for my tact either (ask the
fine folks at Brown-Wagh) but when talking to my peers I _TRY_ to show the
proper respect. Respect is all my message has been about to you, that is
it.
Anyway as far as usenet goes, I tend to agree that the signal / noise ratio
is rather high. However I would _never_ give up hearing from Dave Haynie,
Andy Finkel, Jim and the rest because of some flamage. I think that
Blackbelt would do well on Usenet personally as you offer an inexpensive
solution for a group who *cares* about cost.
I am surprised you can't find a feed cheapr than $38 an hour btw.
$28 an hour – I must have typoed.
Mark – do you believe that the toaster can't be updated in real time, or
near real time? Think how long it takes to update the screen. ALl you need
is some weeny little backround task tht sends stuff out to it on a regular
basis…
If it is NOT possible to update the toasters buffer(s) in real time, then
we're talking about my first objection to the toaster's design. That would
be _incredibly_ short sighted, and I cannot believe that they would miss
such a thing, given the sophistication of the rest of the device. If it
turns out to be so, I guess that is that, but I'll whine like crazy. :^)
Yes, the HAM-E works in realtime. If the Toasster does not, then we have a
big advantage. But we *still* offer a much more sophisticated paint
program, feature-wise, which has nothing to do with the issue of real-time
updates. The programs are different, and so that makes some things hard to
compare.
Is it my fault if the HAM-E works in real time, and the Toaster does not?
Is it my fault if our paint works in real time? Is it my fault if our paint
has more features? Is it my fault if the HAM-E output is higher quality
than the Toaster?
Well, yes. :^) It *is* my fault. <running away>
[continued] – darned CIS message editors!
escapes me at the moment… it was far enough off base to cause me to
comment to someone else that "you had no data", which is the equivalent of
speaking w/o knowing what you're talking about.
From my perspective, I've created the same type of program. I've done a
better job. I understand the issues. I am solidly of the opinion that they
could have done a better job with the paint. You objected to my having this
opinion on the basis that I should put my effort where my mouth is, when in
fact, I've already (and am continuing) to do that.
You, of course, are welcome to your opinions. But when you are wrong, or
appear wrong from my persepctive, I'll tell you just as quickly – and under
normal circumstances, I;m likely to know what I'm talking about. I do make
mistakes, but not this time. :^)
Ben, most likely NewTek will come out with an improved paint program.
They were under a lot of pressure to ship the thing in time for a show and
probably decided to make some quick hack. Not that this makes ToasterPaint
any better. Just a guess as to their strategy as well, but it makes sense.
It is a serious deficiency they'd better address RSN if they expect to sell
to professional companies.
Yep – and I hope they DO come out with a better paint program. I really do.
Not liking Toaster Paint is a far cry from not liking the Toaster.
One thing about being able to do a better job–it requires time. I have
found many programs that I know I could write better. It just isn't worth
it for me to take time to do it. I still have a right to gripe about the
poor quality of what I find. I *AM* a professional software developer, as
is Ben.
But MIKE.. you have not come out in PUBLIC and said to ALL that the
NewTek's ToasterPaint software is laughable. To say it is not the best is
one thing but to act like a "jerk" about it is another.
I think Ethan was squarely on target when he said that NewTek was/is in a
hurry to get the software/hardware out the door. I strongly suspect that
something that is better will come along.
You know the developers area would have been a much better place for Ben to
post his "feelings" about ToasterPaint. That way (his peers) and not the
occassional onlooker who *might have* been interested in the Toaster will
not have been turned off. Yes, Ben did end up saying that it was a
"excellent" product but I fear the "I am still laughing at Toaster Paint"
will hang in the head of anyone interested.
Mike my only point is that opinions are one thing, insults are another. The
keyword here is RESPECT.
Anyway, folks I give up on this.
Maybe I haven't commented on ToasterPaint because I haven't seen it. 🙂 I
tend to complain more about programs which don't work right than about
programs that may not be able to do everything you'd like them to. I guess
I'm just getting fed up with programs that are touted as "good" which I
find to be lousy. This last comment is especially true about the MS-DOS
marketplace. (The easiest way to get me to start bashing is to bring up
MicroSoft).
Your message just came up when I've been thinking that we (as software
consumers) are being too easy on companies which put out shoddy products.
After all, how many reviews have you seen where the reviewer has commented
on numerous bugs he had to work around, and yet gave the product a glowing
review?
BTW, Mark, if ToasterPaint makes you think you see something in HAM and
then "render" it to the Toaster it does stink, at least as far as the
people who are spending $1,600 on the toaster are concerned.
Also, this issue of real-time I think is a bad phrase. It is simply a
matter of a certain amount of time: how long it takes to change a byte in
Amiga chip ram and how long it takes to change a Byte in the toaster's
frame buffer. The ratio should be a good estimate of how much slower the
toaster will be. Personally I don't think the time difference is that bad.
Most likely the simply didn't finish a real ToasterPaint in time. That
doesn't change the fact that the current toasterpaint stinks.
Mark,
There's another salient point here that I think has been overlooked. I
don't think that any prospective Toaster purchaser would be dissuaded one
iota if Toasterpaint WERE the absolute worst paint program ever made (which
I'm confident it's not). 🙂
Considering the hardware and the price, getting a paint program is just
icing on a cake that's not short on icing. It's like:
"You've just won a brand new Ferrari!!! And we'll even throw in a set of
tires."
"Um, may I see the tires please?"
Malcolm
I don't think you can be on CompuServe and not know that… Ben speaks his
mind. Calls it as he sees it. If you agree or disagree that's fine. But
you'll never be in doubt about his position. I _like_ that and I appreciate
his candor. When he raps something, he states his reasons for his opinions.
He doesn't just fly off at the keyboard for no reason.
> just don't care to tell you
Not so. I've made a point of telling Ben that I thought he was right on!
I've never had a problem with any message he's left here. I don't think a
NewTek rep would have been grievously wounded by his statements. I think
they would just accept it as one person's opinion.
Ben,
I hope that you are right, I am greatly looking forward to these PP&S
marvels. They must be fantastic, I don't remember your messages ever being
so filled with optimism and good cheer! (or is it just the season <g>).
Happy Holidays! and a Happy New Year (to you and yours, as well as all
our fellow CIS users)!
-RSL-
Well, there are some distinct advantages that I can cite for the PP&S
hardware.
First, I've seen a working unit, which appeared to my eye (which is
critical, I'm a hardware engineer) to be completely finished. They were
willing to turn the machine off at my request, pull the card out, and show
it to me. That's a class operation.
The display output itself was extremely impressive, just what I would
expect from something with true 24 rez at 640×400.
The software they had running on it was also impressive.
I just don't see any good reasons why the thing wouldn't come out, barring
financial problems.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S