#AutoCAD-trial basis???
43 messages in this thread
Anyone know where I can mail order a copy of AUTOCAD for the MAC. I am
using it on s DOS machine and want to go over 100% to MacIntosh..but
there's no way I want to buy this program until I can give it a test run.
Thanks for any help.
Myron
Myron,
You certainly shouldn't have to buy AutoCAD on any platform sight unseen!
Although AutoCAD is not available mail order, there are a number of
Autodesk Authorized Dealers who would be happy to demonstrate the product
for you and answer your questions. You won't even have to go through the
trouble of installing it and studying through the documentation.
Additionally, there may be folks here on the forum that use AutoCAD on the
Mac and could give you their observations and opinions.
Let us know how we can help.
Dieter
Autodesk, Inc.
Thanks you for your reply, please look at my message to Evan.
Myron MacLeod
Myron:
You're kidding – right?
AutoCAD isn't generally mail ordered, and it is *very* unlikely that any
dealer will let you try it on a trial basis.
Evan
Evan:
No..I'm not kidding. I try all major software before I purchase it..and I
don't mean sitting in a dealer's store to test run a large program under
the eyes of a salesman who knows far less about it then I do.
And. I don't pirate. If its what I want, I pay for it. I want the
documentation and future support.
I've done this with all my software purchases and I own more (paid for)
than most dealers carry.
I think dealers and software developers are the ones kidding if they think
I have the time to waste evaluating major software that I'll use for years
in 2 hours or so. Sure, there's copying, etc., but its for kids and college
kids with no bread … they're not going to pay for the product anyway. I
don't know legitimate productive business people who bother to pirate if
they have any real net worth. Think about it..if you need the product, I
mean really need it, you're going to want updates, manuals, support. If you
can't pay for that, then you wouldn't buy the program anyway and you'll
wait until you can pirate it unlike what I'm soliciting now.
This old thinking should go the way of copy protection. (With the exception
of cheap games, etc. where the market is kids and college students.) If
AutoCAD is not available on a trial basis, then I'll go to somethink else.
I just don't have the time to go to stores and look at limited inventory.
Myron
Myron,
That's a real shame. The way AutoCAD has been sold since the very first
was through dealers who provide installation and support. The decision to
let you `test drive' the software rests on their shoulders. If you can't
find one who wants to let you do what you suggest, it is probably because
it normally isn't done that way. The piracy issue is one that Autodesk
takes very seriously, they even have a group devoted to preventing it, and
they're quite successful too. It's difficult to judge a persons emotional
state when reading what they've typed, but you seem to be taking this as a
personal affront. Nobody likes being distrusted, the fact that Autodesk
stopped using hardware locks on their domestic packages reflects the fact
that their users felt that way. I can guarantee you that more than `college
kids' pirate software, especially a $3500.00 program. There is a demo
version available for a pitance that would allow you to work with the
program to your hearts content, but it doesn't let you save your work. Ask
your local Authorized Dealer for a copy, its as close as you'll probobly
get to what your asking for. If this isn't acceptable to you, then by all
means look elsewhere. If you're really as intelligent as you portray
yourself, you'll be back, once you realize the mistake you've made.
Dennis
Dennis
Thanks for your lengthy comments. I have apparently started off on the
wrong foot. I didn't realize that AutoCAD was priced at $3,500. I would
never pay that much for a CAD program with so many new products now
competitively priced on the market. Price no longer relates directly to
quality when it comes to software. I know this from all the accounting
software programs I"ve gone through. But anyway..people on these boards
seem to get a little too sensitive and perhaps I'm one as well. I didn't
realize I was trying to portray myself as being intelligent, I just said I
didn't have the time to waste…and I really don't. I also didn't mean to
be so snub. I wanted the program as a hobby..I'm a principal owner and
developer of large commercial real estate projects and we hire out design
work…I just enjoy messing around with them. What I said about trial
programs is really true.. I'm not so smart… I just own a lot. We have
always purchase programs we need. Word, Excel, Helix, MacProject, MacDraft,
MYOB, Microphone, etc. etc. As to a demo that won't make saves, that would
be fine, but now knowing the price, it wouldn't matter. Thanks.
Myron
Myron:
Then get Autosketch… it's cheap and easy to learn. AND, when you sketch
around on it, you can give a DXF file to your consultants (who probably use
AutoCAD) and they can load your doodles right into their drawing!
C#
Thanks for the tip…
Myron
Try GENERIC CADD 6.0, the newest release. It outperforms Autosketch, and IS
AutoCAD compatible. (A whole lot less expensive, also!) On a DOS machine,
of course.
Paul, I have not heard of this. Also, is it available for the Mac and are
the commands similar.. Also how can a price of $3,500 for AutoCAD be
justified if this is so close in performance?
Thanks
Myron
Myron, Generic CADD is a superb 2D CAD system, not a 3D as ACAD is. If 3D
doesn't excite you right now (it will later), then spending the extra
several thousand dollars for features you don't need is pointless. GCADD
6.0 is probably available on the street for abt $300-$400. As it comes, it
is completely equipped to handle -most- drafting requirements. It is a
good entry level system to the field of CAD.
I have found it to be easier to use for most of the drafting I do, at work
and at home. It is easier to learn than ACAD, and the skills it teaches
will be directly transferrable to ACAD, should that happen to occur.
I believe it is available for the Mac. I get the newsletter they publish,
but don't retain anything that doesn't directly interest me, sorry I can't
be more specific.
ScottV here should be able to fill you in on the Mac situation.
The only differences in commands between GCADD and ACAD are GCADD for the
most part uses a simple two letter code for all the commands, i.e, to do a
Window Zoom, you type WZ. No <enter> required. In ACAD, you must type in
ZOOM <enter>, then a W <enter>. 7 keystrokes versus 2.
And ACAD calls the small entities you build as you get familiar with the
program Blocks, which it treats as standard drawings once they're saved,
Blocks, where GCADD calls them Components. Other than these examples, I
find moving between the two systems quite easy.
Thanks Paul..that is very helpful. I have a demo of GCAD for the Mac. It is
version 1.02. I don't know how that compares to the version 6 you and
others have mentioned. The interface is very different ..keep in mind, I'm
just playing with this stuff and don't even know how to properly use
AutoCAD, but at first glance there appears to be a big difference between
the two. Also, as to long keyboard commands, you just click on icons in
this version.
Myron.
Myron,
There are Mac afficionados on-line, you might want to ask their opinions.
I do know that the first try at ACAD on the Mac wasn't everything that
typical Mac users had hoped for. There have been questions raised as to
whether AutoCAD really is worth $3500.00, I have no doubt that it is. But
it IS too much program for some people. To address the needs of such users
Autodesk offers AutoSketch and GeneriCAD. 'Sketch is a developmental
toy…er…tool for exploring different interface considerations. GenCADD
is a very good drafting package in its own right, and I do believe there is
a Mac version available. GO ARETAIL to talk to their Sysop, Scott Van Der
Linden if this program piques your interest.
We appreciate your candor, socialization on these boards can be somewhat
brusque, we try to be understanding. Good Luck.
Dennis
Thank you for the additional information, Dennis
Myron
You say you use DOS ACAD and that you always evaluate software before
purchasing. Does that mean you found a trial source for DOS ACAD before
you bought it?
Craig <just curious> B
No, apparently I gave you the wrong impression. The design firm we use uses
ACAD on their machines and I've enjoyed playing with from time to time. I
think they tolerate this because I'm the guy that writes their checks.
Anyway, my office is all Macs as well as at home… so I wanted to try a
demo and see if it worked as well as the DOS version. I'm a businessman who
always wanted to be an architect when I was a young student.
As to trials, I buy software that I really will use. Products that have
gone through this process include Word, Excel, MacProject, MacDraft, More,
Helix, MYBO, Microphone, SoftPC, etc., etc. There's a long list of those
returned.
Myron
Myron:
I think the mail order thing is what set me off. In any event, Autodesk
has a test-drive version of the software — although I'm not sure if it's
available for the Mac. Someone here can tell.
As for getting a *live* version of the software — I still don't think
it'll happen. AutoCAD sells for $3,500, and requires many hours to even
gain a moderate familiarity.
The best bet is to call Autodesk's dealer hotline, and find a dealer who
specializes in the Mac. Or, better yet, bop on down to Dallas in June, and
talk to the Autodeskers directly at A/E/C expo.
Evan
Evan
Sorry if I set you off..First I had no idea how expensive AutoCAD was.
Frankly I put them in the catogory of other overpriced software products
that have enjoyed the luxury of a captive market that I feel will
eventually shift over to less expensive state of the art newcomers.. but
who knows, CAD is not my living and I'm not qualified to say. I live in the
world of finance and I know what I've observed and trashed in the way of
big name, big priced, accounting packages… this is not to say that
AutoCAD is one of those..if you're a fan of theirs, then I hope they
deserve your loyality.
The test drive version would be fine for my purpose..but I would not pay
the price in anycase so that more or less closes the case.. perhaps a few
years back when their competition was a little sparse. Thanks for your
comments, though, I'm sorry if I got your feathers up.
Take care, Myron
Myron:
Actually, competition is still not much of a problem for Autodesk. They
own about 70% of the market.
Evan
Hey… is that how much they own of the market over in the LEAP forum?
<wide grin>.
C#
Yeah..I'm sure thats right..and thats part of the problem
Myron
Myron,
For those of us who *do* make a living at CADD, $4,000 is a very small
price to pay for as much as cutting our man-hours by four! As for a
"captive market", consider the alternatives which may have the same power,
flexibility, or ubiquity: Intergraph, Cadvance, all about in the same
price range. I would think that 70% of the market was earned (the old
fashioned way).
Sincerely,
Brian Boatright
Thanks Brian
I am forced to bow to those of you in the trade who I'm sure know your
field much better than I..
Myron.
Myron:
I have enjoyed reading the interchange, but regret that you are left with
the impression that Autodesk is not providing excellent value in its
products.
May I suggest a solution to your particular request: Autodesk is proud to
offer a full range of CAD software, from AutoCAD with solids at almost
$4,000 SRP, to the Home Series at around $50 SRP. One of our products is
Generic CADD for the Macintosh, and we are within a few weeks of shipping a
new version. All of the Generic CADD products are sold with a money-back
guarantee, I believe it is 60 days, this can be interpreted freely as a
60-day trial period. I would like to send you a copy to try for 60 days. If
you like it, you can send us a check, if not return it (I know you will
want to keep it!). If you would like to take advantage of this, please send
me a note of your telephone number, we will provide you with full details.
Malcolm Davies
Senior VP, Autodesk Americas
Thanks Malcolm:
My goal is to be able to learn AutoCAD at home and interchange files
created on a DOS version. I was trying to find out if this was possible on
the MAC version…if they were that compatible and if the commands were
similar. Now it seems a mute point..I am sure that for those who make a
living at this that your program represents a small price to pay for the
apparent quality that your loyal supporters attest to… I'm really not
your market and that was part of my point regarding pirating. If I had a
copy..it would not have taken money from anyone's pocket.. AutoDesks loss
is incurred when a firm or entity that would have otherwise purchased a
copy, instead gets and uses one illegally.
AS to price. Being first, being the most expensive, having the biggest
market is not enough to sustain a competitive advantage over the long
haul.. I am not qualified to talk about AutoCAD, so don't take any of this
as a comment as to its quality or what it provides its users. I'm also not
one to continue a dialog of electronic "tennis" as one person bats his or
her opinion back and forth accross the network. All I know is what I've
seen in the accounting field, which is my area of expertise, that "big" and
the most expensive is never a guarantee of being best or being about to
keep the market. We all can think of examples of this starting with the IBM
PC vs. Compaq vs. Dell, etc. I'm sure your R&D and marketing group thinks
of this each night – so you don't need my imput.
Thanks for your comments. the best to your efforts and may AutoDesk stay
ahead on the leading edge….as long as it doesn't compete with my
companies. (g)
Myron MacLeod
Mr. MacLeod:
> If I had a copy..it would not have taken money from anyone's
> pocket.. AutoDesks loss is incurred when a firm or entity that
> would have otherwise purchased a copy, instead gets and uses one
> illegally.
Whenever I come across someone who is using a pirated copy of a
commerical software application, and the subject happens to pop up,
their words will almost always match your comment above, in one way
or another.
In otherwords, are you telling us that the fact that you feel that
AutoCAD is far too expensive for you or your needs, is your way of
justifying the use of an illegal, unlicensed copy of it?
Tell me Mr. MacLeod, if I were to go out to the local import dealer,
and just hot-wire a Lamborghini, and drive it around town until the
police finally catch up with me, do you think the judge would find
it amusing, when I tell them that I "wasn't taking any money from
anyone, 'cause this "COPY" of this car is soooo expensive, that I
would *never* have bought it to begin with".
Interesting analogy eh, Mr. MacLeod?
I'd prefer to not draw any negative inferences from your comment,
before you have the opportunity to clarify them, if you will…
-TonyT.
Tony:
I'm too old to get into these "tit for tats".. I won't respond to any more
on this subject.. but for the record, just so you won't toss and turn in
your sleep worried about "Mr. MacLeod", I do not support pirating. But
please read again what you so cleverly copied from my message. IT SAID
NOTHING TO JUSTIFY PIRATING.
God, I hope you don't have to serve on jury duty until you're of age. I
will also add that I've never seen a copy protection method that could not
be broken if enough dishonesty is applied. So, I'm not sure that I'd need
your permission anymore than if I wanted to cheat AutoDesk, that your Peter
Pan words would change my ways if I already were that way. Haven't you
learned that yet?
And to the rest of you following this thread: I'm always so amused at the
judgemental verbal wip lashes one encounters here on BBS land where
electronic text comes so cheap and from behind the safety of a computer
terminal. I have to wonder how Tony types would be if he acutally met my
wife, my family, my community friends, or god fobid, actually knew anything
about me before he jumped down my throat. These "tough" ones seem to change
at a party or face to face.
And Tony, if, as I usually see on these airwaves, you want to bother and
respond to this to have the last word… you will.
Oh – one more thing, I currently have four cars, none a Lamborghini, but
the most expensive is the 560 SEC, and do you know I actually paid for it?
And this will get you, I flew to Arizona to pick it up and unlike AutoCAD
(on the MAC) I didn't even drive it first.
Bye, and spend more of your energy with the homeless or perhaps your
children and less on trying to change what you can't.
Myron
Myron-
If your goal is to simply learn Autocad, there is a program called AutoSim,
from Autodesk, that gives one a good interactive tutorial (from what I've
heard) of how to use Autocad. The price is cheap, too.
If you want to exchange files with your clients, then Generic CADD's latest
version can read Autocad DWG files, and write out Autocad DXF files, which
can then be imported back into Autocad.
Thanks Peter…I'll check that out. I'm not in the business and I'd didn't
know about these options.
Myron
Myron – Just to answer your underlying query… the Macintosh version of
AutoCAD has the same commands and shares the same data file format as the
DOS (and Sun and Apollo and DECstaton…) versions. AutoCAD drawing files
can be freely exchanged among all supported platforms without a conversion
step; all the machines could be linked to the same network and share the
same physical files.
Duff
Thanks for the direct answer. If I learn commands on the DOS version, say
v10 or v11, will I use the same commands on the MAC version.
Myron
>> Being first, being the most expensive, having the biggest market is not
>> enough to sustain a competitive advantage over the long haul…
C'mon Myron, I thought you were in the Accounting field. Don't they teach
you guys economics? How the hell does one get to be first, supply a
high-priced product, and corral the biggest market? By maintaining a
competitive advantage over the others! Sheesh, think about what you're
saying — we weren't FORCED to buy AutoCAD, and most all of us reviewed all
the CAD possibilities out there before making our decision. My firm
actually had a copy of VersaCad which simply could not measure up, dollar
for dollar. And Intergraph, the former ubiquitous choice in CAD products,
before AutoCAD one had to buy a small mainframe to achieve the same
productivity.
Stick to counting beans… you haven't learned economics yet (well maybe
VooDoo Reaganomics, but then that isn't a science).
Brian
You're right, Brian, my undergraduate degree was in business, I have a MBA
from the University of Texas at Austin, and I spend most of my waking hours
analyzing spreadsheets and financial statements. Yeah, I know nothing about
accounting.
I'd start bragging about the fact my net worth being just under 8 figures*,
(that seems to impress the little types), but then that would fly in the
face of the basis of my argument, that the most is not NECESSARILY the
best.
Myron
* No BS, come out and see… in fairness to you, though, I did not take my
CPA exam…
Now as to anyone following this type of chatter… there is no need to get
upset about AUTOCAD. Don't get so personal.. I'm just trying to get some
mechanical answers… thanks.
Myron,
I was going to tell you all about Generic CADD for the Macintosh, and our
60 day satisfaction warranty, but Malcolm beat me to it…
So, I'll just say… "what he said" and leave it pretty much at that.
OH yeah, if you have Questions about Generic CADD, either the Mac version
or the new PC version (CADD 6.0) which can read ACAD .DWG files, feel free
to "GO ARETAIL" and drop me a line.
C. Scott van der Linden – Autodesk Retail Products div.
Thanks Scott
I have a copy of Generic CAD , Demo 1.3 on my drive now.. by that is made
by Generic Software..so are you talking about something else?? If it is, it
is too different to accomplish my goal.
thanks for your message.
Myron
Myron-
Generic Software was bought by Autodesk a couple of years back, and has
recently been rechristened Autodesk Retail Products. They sell Autosketch,
GenCAD, and perhaps a few other goodies.
Rather than buying them to snuff out the competition, they've kept their
offices up in Washington open, and the development still goes on there. In
fact, from what we here Scottv say, GenCAD has several nice features that
we still haven't seen in Autocad. Being part of Autodesk means that Autocad
and GenCAD can work more closely together.
As to your concerns about price, there was once a heated thread on this
forum concerning "Autocad Lite". The basic idea was to have something that
was Autocad DWG file compatable, yet didn't have all the hot features that
Autocad did (AME, ADS, Autolisp, perhaps even 3D, etc.) so that those who
didn't spend 8 hours a day doing production work in Autocad could still work
with those files, get what they needed to get done, while those who really
did need all of the power of Autocad weren't relegated to being completely
seperated, or perhaps even forced to work in a less accomplished, more
"affordable" CAD package, that didn't quite serve their needs as well, just
for the sake of compatability with the "non-power" users.
While I don't work for Autodesk, I think I could safely say that filling
that niche is just what Generic CAD 6.0 is trying to do. While the box may
not say "AutoCAD Lite", to those of us who were involved or rember the
thread, it is a pretty obvious label to attatch to it…
That would make sense. I have a Generic Software demo called Generic CAD,
its version 1.0.2. It is for the Mac however, is version 6 just for IBM
compatibles? Also are the commands similar… If I learned stuff in Generic
CAD, could I do the same in AutoCAD?
Myron
Thanks
Brian,
In all fairness I must point out that AutoCAD was smart enough to "BUY" a
significant portion of that 70% when they bought Generic Software almost
three years ago. (Generic CADD has about 20-25% of the market when figured
on a basis of # of users, the only fair way to measure when prices vary so
much)
And of couse we got (and maintain) our percentage of the market the
oldfashoned way, we earned it! (no easy task, but then a few Editors
Choice and CADD program of the Year awards made that a little easier.
<grin>)
And you can be assured that Autodesk DID earn the rest fair and square!
Especially AutoCAD!
(anyone who does not believe me, just try getting YOUR purchasing
department to spend $3500 on a software program without first proving to
them that it WILL pay for itself!)
In short, you don't manage to have the top 3 programs in your niche just
by chance or name recognition. Nor do you get to a million users (500K for
ACAD, 300K for Generic, and 200K for Sketch) without providing something
that those users WANT, and responding to their needs as you improve the
products.
Scottv –
What numbers are you talking about? The 70% number referenced here I think
is based on data provided by a research firm called Daratech. They are
based on dollar volume as provided by each vendor and I think are limited
to the DOS platform.
While you have a point that user volume might be a fairer measure of mind
share, dollar volume tends to be a better measure what folks would rather
use. The fact that they are willing to justify a $3500 software program to
their purchsing department over say a $500 product suggests that this is
many times (at least 500K) the case.
Regards
Mike
PS – Its 575k times the case if you count the product that I represent. <g>
I can't help but remember all the "suits" that keep recommending programs
and hardward that is the "safe" thing to do…
Please, I have no axe to grind here, I'm not even qualified to make
comments regarding the price/performance of any CAD program..
My own point is..( and lets be honest..you don't make all you decisions
this way either in real life, surely you didn't pick your wife based on
being the most expensive and having the biggest "market share" ) …is that
price and market share do not necessarily mean the best product. It means
only that a company still a wonderful profit maker. Hey, I'm in business,
more power to them..it will last only as long as they maintain their edge.
Thank you.
Myron
PS. There is no direct correlation between price, market share, and
qualitily. Period. IT MAY BE TRUE and probably is… I'm not arguing
that..its just not the way to judge a product. I don't buy any thing in my
life just because its the most expensive because most people may own… I
may or I may not.. its just not related.
Scotty,
There you go again: mangling the statistics… let's just say, *I* think
it's the best program for the money. And the best if you're serious about
producing CADD documents. If you took away AutoLisp, ADS, perspective
viewing, paper space, and all the other things that give AutoCAD power and
flexibility, what would you have? Cadvance! <g> (Sorry, cheap shot… I
just hate 256 item limitations!).
Brian (I basically agree with you … but don't quote me on it!)
Scott – I'm not sure about your characterization of the "only fair way to
judge it", but I can tell you that I think in terms of $$$$, because if
AutoCAD were as inexpensive as Generic CAD, you wouldn't be where you are
right now, reading this message.<g>
-TonyT.