#C LTD
32 messages in this thread
Daryl, I can't help but quote from an interview with Perry Kivolowitz in this
months Amazing Computing.
"In the Amiga markeplace, we (ASDG) believe the consumer is unbelievably
undemanding. They are being abused heavily, and nobody bats an eyelash. I
see a lot of companies in the Amiga markeplace who don't share that opinion.
I think the Amiga consumer is being far too passive. I can't tell you how
many times I've heard a consumer say, "I needed product x, so on July 5th I
ordered it. Today is July 9th and I got it and now I'm really happy." But
he ordered it July 5th, 1986 and got it July 9th, 1987! It took him a year
to get it and he's really happy!? Or "I'm happy now, but I had to return the
product seven times." So because of shipping costs, he has had to pay double
what the product was worth. I don't buy that."…
Marlene, I saw the quote but I think the posting of it could well MAKE my
point. ASDG seems like another AMI company with strong supporters and even
stronger detractors – I think an ASDG pro/con thread would make for some real
flames… at least Cltd will FedExp me a screwed up order… ASDG seems only
to advertise IMAGE but very little real product – they don't deliver at all
and don't really try too hard (!) to stifle speculation about future
products; natch I am specifically on about 2000-1 which at least a few K
A1000 owners (like me) are hanging out on the line on and now we start seeing
the pathetic messages to PK begging for confirmation that there really will
be such a product. I called and was told it would be released "sometime in
1988… probably"… but first I had to be re-routed on my phone call from
what sounded like someone's home to "the number where they can help you"…
Sorry but that, to me is the WORST possible example of a company and
personality that you could have chosen here (although the quote is real
nice). PK/ASDG have offered some nice stuff to the AMI market and I really
liked his early article(s) in Amazing (Scrimper pgm). But before he dropped
off (lurking ?!) of CIS activity he was, IMHO, one of the most obnoxious
flamers with such an obvious axe to grind, around. (e.g. his lonnnggg
flameout with Ed Lippert)… And didn't ASDG do some of the same 'get it out
the door early even if we have to shave the specs' type of thing with their
early 'racks' ? I have certainly seen a few messages to that effect – fine, I
accept the effort to deliver product (just like the early Cltd drives)…
Anyhooo – maybe so about AMI consumers but lets try for a better example of
person/company that HAS done it right ?! Fred Fish ? nah, we want folks
operating under pressure of profit motive… CSA ? CBM ?! MicroBotics ?.
-da
Far be it from me to defend anybody, but i think you're being unfair to
ASDG . Nobody in the Amiga products business ever ships a product when they
say they will, and MANY products from very reputable companies were so late
that the A500/A2000 premature announcement all but killed them.
My only grip with Perry Kivolowhats is that he can't remember my name (and
it's only one syllable.)
Keep looking. I think you'll see 2000-1 boxes (and worth the wait and the
cost), as well as the long-promised RSN SDP controller.
ASDG has the ability to make the Amiga hardware do what its potential
suggests, but it takes time for such a small company to recover from the
shock of havint the A-1000 market thrown into turmoil by CBM's prem{ture
announcement of the 500 and 2000.
If Perry asks, tell him somebody else left{this msg, cause I'm mad at him.
J:
Jay, I do look forward to being an ASDG customer some day for both those
products, and I wouldn't really begrudge any of the smaller AMI hw/sw houses
their delays and problems (I was in that business myself for 4 years and got
to know some of the problems with delivery and a 'shifty' mother company real
well (Apple)) – except when a company principal, like PK, gets up on a
soapbox and starts to pontificate… as he did in Amazing and as he did a
ways back in slamming CLtd and Ed Lippert over and over again… the only
change I note, with interest, in the Amazing piece is that he seems to have
edged away from blunt insults into the slyer kind of wink-wink-nudge-nudge
putdowns that leave you wondering who/what he's talking about.
What can I say ? Both companies (Cltd & ASDG) have (forgivable) faults but at
least the frontman for the former handles himself like a gentleman most of
the time. -da
Yes, while I'm (uncharacteristically) defending people, I might as well
put in a half-decent word for C-Ltd.
They've treated me a lot better than I've treated them, and have even,
over time, behaved admirably, asyou can sometimes tell from this very forum.
They do have problems dealing with dealers, but that's not unusual, and on
that score, C-Ltd has a higher score than ASDG, though they're both not
thrilling. Nothing major, of course, just little annoyances.
J:
Well….. I _try_ to do it right… at least, I'm still here! hehehe. –Ben–
Ben, sweedack…
Or maybe there's a nyah-nyah 'face' that can be built up from ascii
characters ? 🙂
Now that I've softened you up I plan to nag you to death with tech support
q's re my new PAL/driver… no really – I hope to get around to installing it
this weekend and am wondering if I have to backup/ restore the whole thing or
not… the folks at Cltd did reformat my drive (22 meg) up to 24 meg with, I
am told, the new OS… RIght now I access the full 24 meg in two partitions
via harddisk.device with no new PAL in the controller. Can I just put in the
new PAL and change the mountlist to scsi.device and adjust flags or must I
reformat anyways ?
ps – I was hoping to do some sort of objective performance testing of the
before/after sort to verify what I expect will be a subjective sense of great
performance after the new system is installed… do you have any suggestions
for good benchmarking tests of the new software's features ? -tnx
-da
There is no *good* test that applies over the various systems. Best thing I
can recommend is get diskperf and run it now; then install the new pal and
drivers and run it again. You do not have to reformat, I believe that they
have done it for you – in any case, the only reason to reformat is for the
extra space and for performance – it will work with the old method just fine,
though things aren't 100% straightforward, due to some stupidities in the old
driver. –Ben–
ASDG doesn't deliver? Hmm… I'm afraid to say that, you have to ignore the
memory boards, racks, and software that they DO deliver.
YEs, Perry had a long flame-out with Ed Lippert, and i think they both
regretted a lot of the things they said in the heat of the moment. It's an
unfortunate thing really, because it hid the real issues, of which there were
many, and of which there were right and wrong answers. Without going back
into it, I will say that one of them tended to support the right answers, and
the other the wrong answers. To the credit of both, they did learn something
about the other's position, and calmed down a lot.
I haven't seen any flames about poor quality of any ASDG product so far, and
i have no idea where you saw them.
ASDG may be having problems getting new (announced) products out the door,
but at least when perry tells you "Get lost", he doesn't translate it into
"Your product is on the loading dock" before he says it.
-larry
Larry, sweedack… both good companies, potentially much better but both with
problems that I think both are addressing – I just don't see a significant
difference between their respective report cards while I do think PK is
heavily into stating and re-stating this difference. -da
Well daryl,
i would disagree, which of course is one of the reasons this whole thread
started. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but remember, there will
be those with alternative thoughts.
-larry
Daryl,
I find it more than slightly amusing to find that I am fussed
over so much especially considering I have not been able
to be here much for the last three months. Perhaps you might
not have been aware, but ASDG has just completed a move of
our entire operation some 950 miles to Madison Wisconsin. I
Am sure that you were not aware that this move also involved
some major changes in ASDG day to day management. Let me ex-
plain this a little more…
One of the reasons I had so much time to participate here on
Compuserve (something which I enjoy a great deal I might add)
is that the enormous task of day to day management of ASDG
including purchasing, production, new hardware product devel-
opment, manufacturing shipping and service, was being handled
by others. Unfortunately the scope of this task was beyond
the reach of those responsible.
The effect of this you have pointed out. Two products in par-
ticular were announced, expected release dates made, and have
yet to be brought to market. While it is unrealistic to think
that bring quality, sophisticated products to market is any-
thing less than a slow back breaking task, my only failing is
having trusted the word of those responsible for the execut-
ion of the two projects.
As part of the move to Madison, I have assumed full day to
day leadership of every aspect of ASDG operations. I can tell
you, that projects which have fallen behind are now on track
once more. At the same time, our production potential has
grown from approximately 10 boards per week to several hund-
red per week. And we have not repeated our (too) early an-
nouncements of new products – that is, we are developing new
products which we have never discussed in public.
It is a tribute to our commitment to quality and excellence
that even in spite of now corrected management problems ASDG
has produced products which satisfy their owners without ex-
ception. We ship when we say we'll ship. And we support what
we provide. This is a damn sight more than Amiga market con-
sumers have come to expect.
This has been my contribution to a thread started in my ab-
sence. If it's not good enough, then please be kind enough
to keep it to your self. I have work to do.
Perry S. Kivolowitz
President, ASDG Incorporated
Perry,
Glad to see you back! I've missed your comments, but understand your
problems. Hope things get to a point where you can spend more time back here
in the Forum.
Don
I waited an extra day to answer your message Daryl as I didn't want to be
angry when I replied.
First of all the fact that the quote was from Perry is totally irrelevant.
My point was the quote not who said it and personally I still would have
agreed with it if it was from Ed Lippert (though admittedly I would have
chuckled).
Secondly, I am not about to start another Ed/Perry war here especially since
neither Ed or Perry are here.
Thirdly, I haven't ever heard of complaints about ASDG's products – quite the
contrary. ASDG has a reputation for putting out very fine products.
Fourth, there is a definite difference between a product that is announced
and hasn't come out and something that's out and doesn't work until you've
returned it to the manufacturer 10 times.
I know Perry has learned his lesson about announcing anything before it's
ready (or _real_ close) – so has CBM. As far as I'm concerned announced
products are non-products until on dealers shelves.
BTW, I'm not defending ASDG regarding 2000 and 1 and SDP. They announced the
products and still haven't delivered and they have to pay the price of the
bad publicity it brings them.
However, they're still a respected company and have contributed a great deal
to the Amiga community from its' humble beginnings, and I'm sure they'll
continue to do so in the future.
Marlene
Marlene, I didn't intend my thoughts to stir up anything but reflection. It
may be inappropriate to balance what I saw as an inappropriate knocking of
Cltd with what I see as a legitimate criticism of ASDG but it is a useful way
of making the point that neither company is close to perfect and that such
imperfection must be accepted when you're dealing with a 'niche' machine like
A1000…. now with bigger volume and hi-tech in the 500 and 2000 coming down
the pike we may have to end up dealing with the big-time sw/hw houses and
find a whole batch of new problems with them… I LIKE dealing with these
funky little companies and can even reflect (afterward) positively on their
efforts, if we wanted slick chrome & polish aftermarket support, glossy mags,
etc we'd have bought Apple…
Its even relevant to the point that company principal's and their
personalities come so much into the debate – thats natural when a critique of
Cltd or ASDG is perceived by those principals as a putdown of them personally
– I know how that feels since I had 30+ commercially released sw products in
83-86 for my own niche machine. I understand PK's tendency to react with
hostility to competitors and critics but he has only recently learned to put
a lid on it (and his msg to me on this thread veers pretty close to the old
PK it seems).
I have not (yet) owned any ASDG stuff so I don't follow threads on their
stuff as much as CLtd, but I do distinctly remember quite a bit of discussion
about compatibility issues and their various old-style card cages as well as
some threads concerning problems with the VD0: device sw….am I wrong ? are
they perfect or even close to it ?
..ps, they are still talking about things that aren't near out the door. I
called up the other day for a client to inquire about a rumored I/O expansion
bd they might have and the person who answered the phone seemed to have no
hesitation to talk it up, he even promised to send my a mkt blurb on it, but
all I got were some glossies for the other unreleased stuff and a price sheet
for the very small number of older products that they actually sell.
-da
VD0: is as close to perfect as it needs to be – it has NEVER failed me….
while the CBM ram handler breaks often, in many entertaining ways – I never
know if it's going to lock the machine up, wake the guru, provide a software
error with a locked mouse pointer, simply refuse to admit it has any files in
it, show me it has -9 sectors in use (I like that one… <gag>) If VD0: is
NOT perfect, it's only that you have to make the mountlist correctly and
understand what it is designed to do. As for the unreleased stuff, I seem to
recall sneering at it then – I was told to wait and see, and I'm still
waiting. <smile>. –Ben–
Funny, I use BOTH vd0: and Amiga RAM: <—the device
I almost NEVER have gurus, until I tried to run WordPerfect 4.1, which i
pitched, and am back to nromal.
Maybe you have an older ramhandler in your L: That heppened to me once
before i figured out how to preserve my WorkBenches from the dreaded "all"
option of Copy.
Just a suggestion.
J:
PS: I customarily run FACC-II, ClicktoFront, FastFonts, ScreenBlanker
(thanks to CHeath for those ECCELLENT last two items!), Grabbit, REZ, and a
few other niceties. I have T: assigned to RAM: and Grabbit saves to RAM: My
telecoms are set up to download to vd0: (self-preservation!), and I have a
whole BUNCH of paths, assigns and stuff going on. Still, I rarely see the
Guru. My normal WorkBejnch is 640×400, too.
goto your cli and type this: dir "ram disk" <enter>
Let me know what happens. Salud! –Ben–
1> dir ram:
.info cl.lib
Disk.info ml.lib
1> dir "ram disk"
ram disk not found
1> ?
Ben, what am I missing here? The Guru must have been busy meditating cuz
he didn't come to visit me.
Steve,
Add a colon and dir "ram disk:" works just as well as dir ram:, I
don't know what Ben's doing…but I don't get a GURU either.
Don
Yes, you are — > dir "ram disk:" Guess I forgot the colon.
Sorry….. or I could have missed it – I type like the mad hatter sometimes.
–Ben–
Yep, you are correct — causes a line F trap.
Ok, now go to the wb, if you use it, drag some drawers into some other
drawers, then select DISCARD from the wb menu. Works everywhere else that I
know of – even in our alpha network across systems, and THAT's some trick –
almost nothing ELSE works! <grin> but it'll scrog the ram disk soon after you
do it. There are others, but I've been forgetting them fast, ever since I
removed it from my disks and replced it with vd0…. ask andy – he has a LONG
bug list. btw…. I notice that there isw a fix for the 2090 driver in the
dls… are you aware of any difference between the 2090 fixes and the ram
fixes? I mean, conceptually, as products or user tools? Andy won't give with
the fixed ram handler – but the 2090 driver he will. Trying to figure out the
logic here… –Ben–
Steve,
This is very strange…I get no error, in fact I get a normal
directory output from the command dir "ram disk:" whether run from CSH or
from a normal CLI prompt. Ben and I just had a brief discussion about it and
I tried it as I talked with him, and no GURU, no problems, no nothing except
the what I would expect dir to give me.
Don
Ben,
I did that (with the colon) and a DIR "RAM DISK:" gives me a list of
files in RAM: just like it's supposed to do.
Don
I get a message that says: ram disk not found <—it's there, though!
I don't get a guru. Dir RAM: works perfectly EVERY time (I've been using
it for 2 years), and requires a lot less typing, besides which i don't have
to hunt for the " key two times.
I customarily have FACC-II, ClicktoFront, FastFonts, ScreenBlanker, etc.,
etc., running on a 640×400 WORKBENCH, with one 2/3 screen CLI window left
open. I mount df2: (a 5.25" A1020), and vd0:, but i don't put anything into
vd0: that I dont worry about losing.
I have 1.5 megabytes of RAM (thanks to the Insider in my A1000).
I'm not complaining about not getting the guru, but his unwelcome face has
been banished from my system for a long time. I run NOTHING that doesn't
multi-task. If it won't work in my system the way i wantr my system
configured, I don't buy it.
J: (maybe you're getting all MY gurus that i miss out on!)
My fault – I left out the colon: –> dir "ram disk:" try that one.
–Ben–
I tried that too. With a freshly-bvooted computer, it DOES giv me a guru,
# 00000000003.xxxxxxxxx
After something else has done something to ram: (the device) like list, or
dir or whatever, it behaves properly, except that dir "ram disk:" returns a
message that ram isn't found.
That's interesting, but I would never have known, since I always do things
to RAM:, not "ram disk:" The latter requires more typing, and I'm not a
touch typist.
J:
Yeah,Your right using RAM: can be a pain once in a while BUT I LOVE IT 🙂