Smooth models…
49 messages in this thread
I know I've polled for info on this before, but I thought more might
be known now… I'm looking for info on creation of smooth models
like hands, feet, clothing. I want to generate models like those
that can be generated with a spline modeller from <another product>
🙂 I am, of course, eagerly awaiting any IPAS solutions that are
forthcoming, but _in the meantime_ does anyone know of a good
resource for this? I'm on the waiting list for the Inside 3D Studio
book, but no news yet. Does this book have modelling tips and
techniques? Is it out yet? (my bookseller may be holding out on me
🙂 ) Are there any existing spline modellers that can export DXF or
etc.? Thanks for any info…
I believe most spline modelers can export DXF (more or less… not all DXF's
are created equal <g>). The problem is the only ones I know of are in packages
that have gotten mixed reviews – Real3D, Playmation/Animation Master. I've
been playing with another package called Caligari Truespace that's kind of fun.
It's got a very nice, easy to use interface, and has a nice, very useful
deformation lattice tool. I don't have any firm opinions on it yet, but its
fun to play with. First impression is that it's not competition for 3DS,
though it has some features I'd really like to see, like user plane, moveable,
scaleable windows, paint faces on model, moveable/scaleable mapping that is
constrained to the surface of the model, raytracing, constraineable movement
axes, etc… I'll be using it as a modeling companion for 3DS, and to render
some models for compositing in VP. I don't think I would use it to create an
entire animation, but I've got to mess with it a little more before I can say
that (or anything else) categoricaly.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
FYI, Playmation writes a terrible DXF. Topas is somewhat useful for simpler
things, but horrible with cross-sectional modeling and DXF's o.k.. Real 3D is
incredible, but currently does not export anything. I would like to hear your
opinion of Caligari's MODELER (only) and export quality when you've had a
chance to form a solid opinion. That program goes WAY back – it was the first
to show on the Amiga around '86 – but about the last to ship years later <g>. I
bet some of the Yost people remember it. It sold for $3-4k at first which was
unheard of on that platform. Please do let me know what you think of it, as
it's probably the only PC 3D app. that I haven't used.
WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE CREATE REAL3D TO 3DS COVERTERS – PRETTY PLEASE !
Sorry to use your message space for such stuff <g>.
BILL
One possible solution is not a modeler, but a resource for models. Viewpoint
DataLabs has close to 1,000 meshes that are easily translated to 3ds. the nice
thing about Viewpoint Datasets is packages. (wavefront, symbolics, multigen,
alias, softimage, etc). There is a wide variety of anatomical models to choose
from. as well as just about everything else.
To Chad and Anyone who cares to comment:
>> One possible solution is not a modeler, but a resource
>> for models. Viewpoint DataLabs has close to 1,000 meshes
>> that are easily translated to 3ds.
If I might suggest an addendum to your suggested basic services, your
starting point is good but requires more flexibility. In somewhat the same
paradigm <sp?> as C and C++, if there were a basic model with features. For
example, if one had a head and one of the features that one could tweak would
be the length of the nose (depending on the number of lies told <g>). This
means that the "model" would not only be data but also code for
modifying/tweaking the basic model's selected characteristics. The selection
of features would be the choice of the constructor/provider since support code
is required for modification of the selected features (which could be updated
and expanded with later releases). I do know that this can be done manually but
I am lazy <g>.
I don't think that this sort of thing has surfaced here yet, so what are some
thoughts, if any.
If you can wait about a month, the new Yost IPAS collections will allow you to
*create* & *animate* spline-based geometry of various types in 3DS but
ultimately *renders* triangles (although I believe you can vary the resolution
as needed). Also contains MANY other useful IPAS routines utilizing the new
IPAS3 interface(s). Check them out. There are NO *serious* PC-based spline
modelers (outside of CAD) available which also can write a decent DXF file.
This has been a partial repayment for Gary's answers to my barrage of questions
<BG>.
Seriously, get the Yost stuff when available.
BILL
Thanks, Bill. <g>
– G
re: no serious spline modellers on the PC
Just curious, but have you tried MacroModel? I have used the program on the Mac
and found the interface pretty decent, though a bit heavy on the cad emphasis.
I have not tested the .dxf output however.
Andrew.
>>MacroModel…
PMJI, but I use MacroModel for Windows, not for the spline modeling (I find it
too slooooow), but just to create beveled 3D text object to bring into 3D
Studio. The MM DXF -> 3DS has worked fine or most of the things I've tried. I
had a problem once with a few faces gone askew on the backs of some fancy "s"
characters, but I don't know if it was MM or the DXF transfer.
I run MM in Windows on one machine, and load the resultant DXF's thru the
network directly into 3DS on the other machine. Easy as pie and not near as
fatten'n.
J K J
<< Just curious, but have you tried MacroModel? >>
Yes. I found it to be unuseable. The reasons are too numerous to mention here.
I believe the only *half-serious* PC software that I haven't used which
utilizes any type of splines in any way, is the program John T. mentioned –
Caligari. However, I have seen the specs a while back, and it doesn't *look*
that interesting to me. Without question, the best spline modeler on the PC is
Real 3D, which exports NOTHING.
BILL
I've had a chance to play with Caligari a bit over the last couple of days.
It's biggest weakness seems to be that it needs to run under Windows 3.1. I
have faulted out of renderings twice, now.
As I said, the most interesting thing about this package is the user interface
(very nice, perhaps a bit sluggish), and the deformation modeler.
Real3D sounds more and more interesting, I guess the biggest problem is that it
doesn't export. If it did I would check it out.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
<< …weakness seems to be that it needs to run under Windows 3.1. >>
Does it utilize WIN32S ? Other than GPF's, do you also mean it is otherwise
erratic
under Windows ?
<< As I said, the most interesting thing about this package is the user
interface >>
As I told you before, I haven't seen it in years and on the Amiga, but seems
like I
remember it being similar to Topas if you're familiar……Full screen,
perspective view with real-time interactive camera / drawing plane control,
etc.. Is it still ?
<< and the deformation modeler. >>
Is it based on a deformation lattice, or non-linear deformations like magnets,
or something like that ? Or with direct maipulation of selected CV's with
various power tools, etc. ?
<< Real3D sounds more and more interesting >>
You can't beat R3D's interface as you literally design it as you want it, and
can substitute environments anytime as needed…..with asynchronous operation
under WIN32S.
<< I guess the biggest problem is that it doesn't export. >>
Well, it is for me because it has absolutely one of the finest modelers I have
ever seen or used. Alias is better only beacause of a few features and NURBS,
and I mean PowerAnimator or Studio, not the lesser Alias modelers. But R3D has
some features not seen in Alias or any other program as well. I'd choose Alias
Studio but I'd say R3D is
not a terribly distant 2nd or 3rd. On non-SGI platforms, it's the best out
there IMHO.
I'd kill for a good R3D->3DS converter – that would be an awesome combination.
But many key features required for serious production on a schedule come up
short, although it does have some rather advanced features.
<< If it did I would check it out. >>
Help me get some developer interested in writing a converter then <g>. JF's not
interested. I could connect them with the R3D people if you know of anyone.
Thanks for the information.
BILL
Yes, the Caligari interface is full screen (or windowed, of course) with
real-time manipulation, different perspective views, and camera views. You can
make up to three small view windows in addition to the full screen one. It's
also well layed out as far as the button bars go. Everything is in one place,
and right clicks will bring up dialogue boxes in most instances that will allow
further input (numeric, choices of axis constraints, move/rotate/scale, etc).
But it really needs to be further developed to be a usefull, stand alone tool.
It's just got too many important features missing.
The deformation tool can either be a lattice created around the entire object,
or a stand alone lattice that can be placed in specific areas of the object.
The deformation lattice is animateable, too, so you can keyframe an object to
pass through the lattice and it will change shape as it does. The deformation
tool is quite handy, I created the most realistic human torso I've ever done in
about 15 minutes last night. The DXF out works pretty good, but isn't as
perfect as it could be (probably has to do with how the lattice deforms the
mesh).
Also, the software is pentium optimized. When I asked if it was Win32s, I got
a short answer – "it is a 32bit application". But it didn't come with Win32s,
so I don't believe it uses it.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
Thanks John. Sounds kinda' interesting. How much are they asking for it these
days?
BILL
I think Truespace lists for around $750.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
It sounds like the need for a R3D translater/exporter is evident. Call
Viewpoint DataLabs 1-800-328-2738. We are currently translating in over 50
packages. It would be a job for (someone who can type)
As I understand it, Real-3D is a Win32 program, which means it will run
under Windows 3.1 if Win32s is installed, but that's a kludge and a slow one at
that (Win32s "thunks" Win32 calls to their nearest Win16 equivalents which
means CPU mode switches every time a Win32 API function is called!). If you're
going to get into Real-3D, either get Windows NT or wait for Win 4.0 (Chicago)
to come out first.
Marion,
It may be a kludge, but I've tested it for months and it works better than any
other Windows application I've ever seen/used. A lot of effort was put into the
asynchronous design and to emulate the feel of true multitasking as much as
possible. The program has a number of shortcomings, but this one isn't
particularly high on that list. There are also NT, SGI, & DEC ALPHA versions in
beta, as well as the Amiga release.
Bill
Thanks for the info about Real3D and Win 3.1. I use the ASDG Abekas Driver,
which is also a Win32s application. I haven't really noticed that it is
particularly slow, but all it really does is a quick RGB-YUV conversion with
some nice color correction, and a backup onto Exabyte.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
You mentioned the ASDG Abekas driver, I've been considering the same setup. Do
you have any problems? Which Exabtye machine are you using?
Thanks,
Andrew.
I've had no problems at all with the ASDG/Exabyte setup. I use an 8505, which
is the half height model that'll do 10gigs per tape maximum. It's all pretty
much plug and play (except for some possible windows tweeking and one
environment varialbe in autoexec.bat).
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
I just purchased a copy of Strata Studio Pro and although I havent had much
time
to play around with it the modeler seems interesting (it has spline modeling)
and it
imported a DXF to 3DS with no problems. The catch is you gotta have a Mac.
>>The catch is you gotta have a Mac<<
That's a pretty big catch. I've heard mixed things about Strata's offerings,
but let us know what its like. I'm not a big fan of Macs, though.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
What exactly is spline modeling?
Spline modeling is, simply, modeling using splines (instead of polygons and
vertices, like 3D Studio). Sorry if that sounds too obvious <g>. Splines are
lines that pass through control points, and the shape of the spline can be
changed by moving, scaling, or rotating the control points. The biggest
advantage of splines over polygons is the smoothness/object complexity ratio.
Splines are resolution independant, so one does not have to create a gagillion
faces to have a smooth rounded object, one just has to manipulate the splines
by using the control points. There are different spline modeling setups, like
B-spline patch, and NURBS. I don't know the math behind them, but I have used
both types and prefer them over polygonal modeling for organic, naturaly curvy
shapes. It is possible to manipulate and edit complex model areas very quickly
and easily (for me, compared to 3DS) with these types of modelers.
John Tissavary
What raytracing programs support spline modeling? Also, I am in search of a
good modeling and rendring program for PC platforms. Which one would you
consider to be the best?
Andrey
I would definitely, hands down, consider 3D Studio to be the best PC based
modeling and rendering system (combined). While I would like certain advanced
features, like spline modeling, inverse or forward kinematics, collision
detection, etc., 3DS Studio is outstanding and extremely productive even
without them. And the renderer blows everything else away (besides ray
tracing).
For raytracing there are several packages, but since I don't raytrace (too slow
for PC animation production) I haven't examined them. I know Caligari trueSpace
has raytracing, but not field rendering, Real3D is a raytracer, and I'm sure
there are several others.
Real3D supports spline modeling and raytracing. I haven't used the software,
and while I have heard very good things about it, most people I have talked to
say there are some major missing features for it to be as productive as 3D
Studio. It is also still Beta software, so maybe some problems will be
resolved before official release.
John Tissavary
John, minor correction to your first sentence… "instead of polygons and
vertices, like 3D Studio without the soon-to-be-released Yost Group spline
patch/skinning modeler"
– G
Gary, will the skin IPAS only work on spline models?
I know, I know, you'll tell all in good time, just want to reduce the number of
tools that I use and get rid of the buggy stuff.
Andrew.
>>instead of polygons and vertices, like 3D Studio without the
soon-to-be-released Yost Group spline patch/skinning modeler"<<
Good point! With yours and other IPAS coming out soon, these modeling issues
will change completely.
John Tissavary
>>mixed things about Strata's offerings<<
I just started using studio pro but as soon as I get a better feel for it I'll
let You know
Max Ehrlich
people love that program on the Mac. Alot of architects using autocad for the
Mac use that, export their models out to strata pro..they seem to really like
the on screen materials editor.
If you are doing still image color printing you'll be happy with your Mac at
any service bureau.
Hi Bill,
I'm not as active in this Forum as I used to be, but caught your posting that
you had difficulties with MacroModel. I'd be interested in precisely how you'd
like to see it enhanced in the next rev, as would the entire 3D team.
Please come on by the Macromedia Forum here on CompuServe (GO MACROM) and tell
us what you'd like, okay?
fwiw, <plug warning!> I haven't such seen features as Bezier-based datasets, 3D
snapping, global editing, construction objects, blazing smooth-shaded modeling,
sweet RenderMan quality, and the other new wave features implemented to any
near degree in any other 3D tool I'm familiar with. Would be very interested in
what you'd like added to MacroModel… I only stop by here every week or so,
though… so please GO MACROM 'n' enlighten us, okay? Would be appreciated,
thanks.
Regards,
John Dowdell
Macromedia Tech Support
Hi John,
Sure, I'll pop in over at your place first chance I get.
Regards,
BILL
Playmation is a spline-and-patch modeler that can export DXFs.
The problem with Play, or Animation:Master, is that there is no control of the
complexity of the .dxf file created. I find that the defaults are too low to
get a smoothly rendered curve in 3DS. I haven't had any problems importing A:M
created .dxf's into 3DS, so there is that.
Andrew.
Playmation will vary it's DXF resolution output quite nicely, actually, Andrew.
It is controlled by the scale function, if I remember correctly.
-Alan Iglesias
<< Playmation will vary it's DXF resolution output quite nicely, actually,
Andrew. It is controlled by the scale function, if I remember correctly. >>
It is controlled by the scale function, but haven't you found the patch
subdivision – then to triangles results rather erratic ? Plus, the spline type
used produces less than desireable smoothness and surface continuity problems
to begin with.
BILL
Well, Bill, all I can tell ya is that I tested it for a moderate amount of time
and found the patch-polygon transformation to be quite even and predictable.
Any (edge) smoothness problems clear up eith a higher-res transformation, and
lower-res stuff can look pretty good with proper smoothing groups applied and,
of course, if it is not a foreground object.
I didn't use it *that* much, but what I did looked pretty good, FWIW.
-Alan
Well, it's nice to know that I can vary the DXF resolution from
Animation:Master through scaling, this seems to be one of those really cool,
useful details that aren't in the manual. I have to say that the 3DS manuals
really blow away most of the others that I have seen. I've created some nice
models in A:M, the scale function was just what I needed.
Thanks,
Andrew.
I agree about the superiority of the 3DS docs, Andrew. Actually, it was Martin
Hash himself that told me about the DXF export and it's variable polygon
resolution ability. It was the primary reason I wanted to evaluate the program.
I thought that a low-cost spline patch based modeler with good DXF export could
be of use to many 3DSer's.
-Alan
How do they control the smoothness of the triangulation? Is it a fixed number
per surface, or a max size per facet? If it's the latter, you can trick it by
enlarging the model before export. Given their experience with fast
patch-based forward differencing algorithms, you'd think they'd've done this
right.
Since I'm not that hip to the underlying technology of spline patches, it
didn't occur to me to scale the objects. Now that I have that, things are much
better.
Andrew.
There's two simple ways to turn curves into line segments. One, turn every
curve into a fixed number of segments. This has the disadvantage of turning
small curves into overly dense meshes, and large curves look too rough. A
second method breaks the curve when a certain condition is met: such as maximum
length of each segment, or maximum angle between segments.
Sort of like the "flattenpath" operator in Postscript, which renders a
"curveto" spline or sequence of splines (a path) into a series of (usually
tiny) straight lines. You set the resolution of it with "setflat", which tells
how many pixels the straight line can deviate from the curve at the point of
maximum deviation. Setflat defaults to 1, meaning the straight lines cannot
deviate from the original curve by more than one pixel at any point. You can
get more speed out of Postscript by setting Setflat higher at the cost of
smoothness of the curves, but it's handy for "draft" prints of complex pages.
Max, there's a little known spline modeler called Sculptura which works in
Windows, which makes some decent models and was designed with DXF output in
mind. Course the more free-form the model, and the more complex the more faces
and vertices but if you interested the people to contact are
Robert McNeel and Associates 206-545-7000
There in Seattle and are also known for their program AccuRender for R12. They
have a demo version, so you can try it before you buy it. Actually if you get
it you might want to consider uploading it on the forum for others to check
out.
-JE
Hold on for a little while until the new IPAS routines are available. As for
Inside 3D Studio – it should be in your hands quite soon.
– Phil
Well, I know that Mechadeus (the Critical Path people) is currently using
MacroModel to create their more organic models, then exporting the meshes to
DXF (or maybe .3DS) and rendering the stuff w/ 3dsR3.
I believe it's spline based…but correct me if I'm wrong.