#Imagemaster v9.5.1
71 messages in this thread
Ben,
Wow! Thanks for your quick reply(s). How soon can we expect to see "it"
fixed?
–Louis
On AUTOPILOT over Chicago…
I'm lost… what is "it"? <grin>
Next IM is 2-3 weeks out, I think… it'll be…
Imagemaster R/t 1.00
…and it will have some very cool new stuff besides the retargetability.
Looks like we'll even have the new TRIM file stuff in it; that's very
exciting – I've recovered over 70mb off my (previously) full one hundred
MB partition where I keep my images here at home – lossless,
high-compression image storage. At last. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Oh NO!! I was just getting use to the IM 9.x series and now you start
all over again with IM R/T 1.x. You guys are sure hard to keep track
of. You know at one time I was thinking of doing a multimedia style
tutorial for ImageMaster. It didn't take me long to throw that idea
out the window <g>. Anyway your TRIM file format sounds great. Lets
say I have a typical 300K Ham-8 picture, what size would it be in the
TRIM format? Can it be viewed with a typical IFF viewer?
<laughing> Well, thanks for the thought (multimedia tutorial). Take alook
in DL6 and D/L IM_DOC.lzh; extract it in ram and etc. Tell me what you
think of *that* as a medium for tutorials. :^)
If you have an image in HAM-8, then TRIM (probably) won't compress
it. TRIM is a full 24-bit format; compared sizes are against IFF24
only. HAM8 is a 3:1 lossy compression – the image contained in 8 bits
x 640 x 400 is actually 24 x 640 x 400. The key here is that it's
lossy; both in the 18 bit ham area and in the ham error sense. IFF24
is totally non-lossy for 24 bits worth of accuracy. That's very
important for two types of situations: First, if it's "data" as
opposed to "art"; you don't store data in a lossy manner. Second, if
you're working on an imaage over time, or expect to be, you don't use
a lossy format unless you find it acceptable to lose data every time
you save and load the image. I keep all images that I plan to work
with in full 24-bit format; not JPEG, not HAM8, etc – TRIM does what
IFF24 does, that is, loses NO data, but does a much, much better job
of compressing the image data than does IFF24. When you reload the
image, it's all there – not one bit is different from the original,
to 24-bits accuracy.
A 300k HAM8 image would if you were *lucky* be somewhere near 300-400k
in TRIM format. However, a 300k IFF24 would likely be about 150k – or
smaller.
Yep, I downloaded IM_DOC already but won't be able to take a look at
it until I get back home. I'm down here in Oklahoma City for a couple
of weeks so just using my measly laptop (sure wish CBM would come out
with an Amiga laptop). Anyway, as soon as I get back I'll take a
look at your new super hypertext utility. Thanks for the info on
TRIM. Sounds like a real nice method of storing 24-bit files.
Ben,
Imagemaster R/t 1.00 sounds great. Are you releasing the code for the
compression format so that PD Viewers can support it?
What about us customers that paid for a fully functional upgrade to IM 9.5
? Does this mean that there will not be a bug fix for IM 9.5.1 and instead
get IM R/t 1.00?
-Louis
On AUTOPILOT over Chicago…
Everybody gets Imagemaster R/t; Image Professional owners, Imagemaster F/c
owners, Imagemaster owners. It's what it always was, except it's a good
bit more capable.
So – if you're getting a fix from 951, it'll be Imagemaster R/t, yes.
As for TRIM, yep, we're working on a formal encapsulation spec (the
format's done, the paperwork isn't) and then out it'll come, looks like.
Won't be too much use for viewers, though… remember, it's a 24-bit
format, not much use for low color images or dithered, or compressed.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
WWWWOOOOOWWWWW! That's great Ben. Really gotta hand it to ya. Does that also
mean that you'll also be able to load those images directly into OpalVision!?
Hats off to ya! I'll be waiting….. <<doing the dance of joy>> -Louis
Yes – the images go straight into OV with nary a bump.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
How would you compare your product w/Adobe Photoshop? Could you duplicate
their "Hope Comes to Washington, D.C." ad with ImageMaster?
…..Nancy
From Edmonton, AB, Canada
Nancy, a Photoshop head told me ImageMaster can't come close until
they come up with "real" edge detection. Do you know what he meant by
this? What is it in PhotoShop that makes it so superior?
pt> What is it in PhotoShop that makes it so superior?
If you were a PhotoShop head, would you acknowledge competition like IM as
knocking at the doors of your customers? Unlikely.
I believe at this point in time, it's propaganda, in my opinion.
For my purposes, IM gives me everything I need, and the support can't be
beat.
-= Vance =-
I think the guy was referring to the magic wand selection tool in
PhotoShop. A similar device is supported in ImageFX.
I was just using that rather extensively in PhotoShop last week. It
is considerably easier than any of the color gen mask features in IM.
While IM can come close to the functionality offered by the magic
wand, it is nowhere as easy or intuitive to use.
I still think IM is the best on the Amiga platform though.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Yes, the "magic wand" lets you creep in or out on a selected area. So
if you don't quite get a mask or brush that you like from your color
selection, you can adjust it. This is sort of the secret to
compositing an area so it looks right. If you are trying to get two
different contrast areas to look good, you can adjust the
feather-in/out. Of course, the more pixels you have to work with, the
better it will look.
PhotoShop's magic wand and Alpha channel options are VERY useful.
The pixel tolerance factor is something available in ImageMaster, but it's
really nice to be able to see it as an onscreen marquee at all times.
(BTW, I was following your SyQuest/Bad Blocks story with some interest as
I just got a SyQuest 88MB drive myself . . . Too bad AmigaDOS seemed to
choke on the bad blocks. I'd thought the bad block remapping was done by
the SCSI drive itself? Are you still using the 1000?)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
No, the 1000 is long gone. I have an accelerated 500 with an external GVP.
Unfortunately, I have lots of peripherals and at the time I got the 500, I'd
have to dump many of my toys. NOW, the Amiga market is even weirder. I have
quite an investment in SCSI. My husband keeps leaving Silicon Graphic's trade
brochures on my desk – sure like the colors their plastic cases come in! I
don't consider Windows or the Mac operating system anything I could live with
as bad as AmigaDos can be at times. Yes, the marquee is nice. I think a lot of
the Photoshop tools are looking dated now. Have you ever played with Painter ?
That is a nice program for artistic drawing stuff.
Glad you've got a faster system now. I bet you're lusting after the AGA
modes as badly as I, eh?
Trust me, you don't want to think of Silicon Graphics machines. Indigo is
the color of the devil! :^)
Silicon Graphics machines are so blazingly fast & cool, you'll be ready to
sell your children to get one. (And for what they cost, 3-4 newborn babies
would just about cover the hardware alone! :^)
I've seen what can be done with Fractal Design Painter, and it looks
REALLY cool, but that's getting into the realm of 2-D art – a field I am
not very proficient in. About the most I do with these programs is
manipulate already existing graphics. I leave the creative stuff to the
experts. :^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
P.S. I hear they're demo-ing the Toaster4000 at Winner's Circle in
Berkeley now.
I don't care for Winner's Circle – they've never been very nice to me and their
prices are too high. Actually, Painter would be excellant for manipu- lating
existing stuff – some of the tools are so weird and some work better for global
changes. I'm not lusting for AGA, I have a Ham-E. I don't need my Workbench in
a 1/4 mill. colors. If I did lots of animation, I'd consider it. However for
large still images, a true 24bit board and a giant monitor would be a better
choice for me.
I would never go to Weiners Circle. But I think we had this discussion
before.
-Jonathan
Is there a way to get close to this method in ImageMaster?
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
I've tried but for me it hasn't been a success. When Ben gets back (where did
that boy go!) maybe he could tell you. You can play around with the blend
settings – Other Options button – Smooth Edge Transparency – to get a close
physical feather. Match this with Make Mask and a color variance setting and
play with it in a separate buffer. Then restore the buffer to your main screen.
Now with Photoshop and ImageFX, you can lasso an area and creep-in/out by color
variance and a predefined amount of pixel creep. Since this is happening while
you are watching the whole image, you can easily redo it and see the effect.
Color variance is kinda weird to work with. I tried cutting out a black-shaded
typeface on a black background. Well, as the type sorta fades into the black
background, where does one set the variance? My type looked like Swiss cheese
on the edges. Now one could have carefully used the freehand tool to cut around
the type but I have a life to live, so…
<What is it that makes Photoshop so superior?>
Paul,
How about how Photoshop handles the Alpha Channel(s). Perhaps the fault
is not with IM (or ADPro for that matter). Perhaps we need an IFF32 image
format (R, G, B, & Alpha). This would, in my opinion, be a big boon to
thrust the Amiga further into the Video World.
I would like to see 3-d renderers render an Alpha Channel
automatically, taking into account transparent and semi-transparent areas
and true anti-aliasing.
-Steve
Steve,
yep. One advantage Photoshop has is its superior memory usage, where an
alpha channel only uses 8 bits/pixel compared to 24 bits in Imagemaster. I also
have serious doubts about the quality of IM's feathering. Have you ever
repeatedly outlined a brush in Deluxe Paint? Notice how the contour has all
these strange 45-degree edges? IM seems to use a similar algorithm when
feathering area edges, whereas I've never seen such artifacts in
Photoshop-generated images. Ben, am I doing something wrong?
Blaq!
I *think* what you're seeing is the result of a low resolution feather.
When there aren't enough pixel between the all-off and the all-on portions
of the edge, the steepness of the feather can show contouring (mach
bands). Use a higher resolution image – make sure you've got at least 64
pixels in the region of the edge… that will give you 64 levels of
blending.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
<What is it that makes Photoshop so superior?>
Steve,
And how about the full CMYK editing functions, 3 anti-aliasing methods,
rubber stamp, and an impressive amount of real neat plug-in modules from
Adobe and Aldus, Kodak CD Rom support, etc…
-Louis
On AUTOPILOT over Chicago…
CMYK editing isn't of particular use for image effects; it's more a print
oriented function (where we've always said that PhotoShop shines).
Anti-aliasing we have more than three – we name them accurately, though…
try the lowpass filter; the anti-alias; RIP, RIS, RIC, RIF; Dedither; and
Smear. :^)
Rubber stamp? Must have missed that one – what's it do? (The only Macs are
at the office)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
'Rubber Stamp':
In PhotoShop, the rubber stamp tool allows you to paint an area with
another selected area of the same image. It goes something like this:
Place the stamp pointer over the source area of the image and press the
option key. The stamp pointer changes to indicate you've selected your
source position.
Now, move over to where you want to paint, and as you click & move the
mouse the pixels from the source area are copied to the target area.
It's a really cool little way to erase blemishes in an image, or to
multiply copy parts of an image. Very intuitive and handy. (I believe that
it also uses the current brush type, so you can have as smooth a blended
spot as you wish.)
The really nice thing about this tool is that it doesn't require any
complex setup at all. There's no setting masks, or modes, or jumping
through a series of menus. Just click twice and you're touching-up an
image. And all feedback occurs in real-time under the brush.
So, can us IM users hope for something like that?
Thanks,
Erik Flom
I believe that what you're describing is a "pantograph". yes, you'll be
getting that.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Great!
(Yeah, it is very similar to a pantograph, except that the pen color comes
from the source pixel color.)
Now, all I need is the 4000T w/AGA graphics to really get cooking. (Maybe
I'll get it about the same time ImageWhatsis X.X comes out – I've
forgotten what this months name for the next level of ImageMaster is. :^)
Thanks,
Erik Flom
When you saw the T4000 demo, were the animwipes just patterns of colours
or did wipes like 'home run' show a realistic baseball 'hitter'?
-= Vance =-
"Imagemaster R/t".
R/t stands for "Retargetable".
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
reading Erik's reply, I remember this cloning function I've been meaning to
tell you about for a long time. It's incredibly easy to retouch an image with
it: removing a garden hose on the lawn, for example, by cloning nearby grass.
The function uses the current airbrush settings, so the operation is
wonderfully hard to detect; and of course, you get immediate feedback, but
that's another topic altogether. This is one important image processing tool
(some people make a good living using only that, plus brightness/contrast)
which has been missing from Imagemaster.
(You know, I have this feeling someday you'll be reading this section,
having gotten up on the wrong side of the bed, and explode in a torrent of
"these users want to have every function under the sun in a program that costs
bloody $135!" Please, never mistake my posts for whining; I tremendously enjoy
the opportunity given me by this Forum to have an ongoing conversation with
someone I feel very grateful to, and a lively online personality too! I just
like exploring the possibilities of what could be, what isn't, and the reasons
behind it all)
Blaq!
Ahem. "It's In There". :^)
Set the blend as required for mixing to taste – I use about 5 pixels of
edge blending, or just the graphs sometimes. You can get to the blends
thru the process or paint panels as soon as you have an image loaded; you
don't need a secondary.
Next, cut the region you want to clone using any tool as a brush.Set the
draw mode to "Brush Draw" & "Absolute Transparency" under "paint/set
drawmode".
Finally, use "paint/line draw/dotted freehand" to place the "thing". Once
you've gotten set up, you can cut new brushes and pop them in using dotted
freehand in pretty short order.
Hows that?
——————————-
Thanks for your other kind words. I only get frustrated when approaches
are made in other than a questioning manner. I don't respond real well to
accusatory types, though I am working on it.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
thanks so much for showing me how to clone in IM. Although clumsier than
Photoshop, it'll do for now! (said in cheery tone)
Blaq!
Imagmaster has complete alpha channel capability; we call it a "bland
buffer". In fact, we have more variations on the theme than Photoshop does
by far. What is it you want to do, that you can't seem to accomplish using
IM's alpha (Blend), Steve?
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Bland? BLAND?? Ben, your alpha capabilities are anything _but_ bland! They're
the key to some of the wildest uses of Imagemaster I can envision.
Oh, _BLEND_. <running>
Blaq!
Arhg. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Why do you think your alpha channel is boring or plain?
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
Yes, this is a bit strange, why would anyone have bland alpha channels? What
happened to software excitement <g> ?
Yah, yah. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
Maybe I don't know enough about IM yet, and I'm no expert on Photoshop.
So, can I break out the individual channels (preferably the Alpha) and
work on it?
Can I save out blend buffers for use later? Can I send the blend buffer
out my FC24 for use in post-production? (When I bought my FC, I was told
it has an alpha channel – It doesn't, it has an overlay channel so that
Workbench and their paint program's pointer (Light24) can appear.)
Is there a way to modify the FC24 redraw script so that it always
displays true size, rather than virtual size?
Actually, what I really want has nothing to do with IM. I want 3-d
renderers to generate an alpha channel so that I can composite my
creations onto live video. If anyone has a problem understanding that…
If you create a space ship that is going to fly thru Manhattan, and the
ship has tinted windows that you can see the skyline, and the Manhattan
imagery is live video, shot from a helocopter, you'll need an alpha
channel to darken the skyline that appears thru the window. The alpha
channel also blends the edges into the video, whereas using the color 0
transparancy option (SuperGen) cuts a jagged hole in the video for the
space ship.
So, with IM, if I felt that the skyline was too bright in the window,
or I want to add some sunlight streaks to the window, how could I modify
the alpha (blend) buffer as such?
I would read the book more, but I can't look at text on a screen for
too long and my office neighbors would kick me out if I started printing
all 100 pages on my KXP-1124 printer (got to be the noisest one around).
-Steve
Steve, There's ANOTHER method to do what you want since you have IM, if
you ALSO have Syndesis Interchange Plus, there's a ISHAPE module there
that will convert your 3D Models into ISHAPES for Imagemaster. I believe
having these ISHAPES of your 3D Models will allow you to Create a MASK
quite easily in IM for compositing over Live Video. I've not tried this
yet but I think it should work.
Peter,
That's a good possibility. I wonder how good the IShape looks. One of
the important features of a key image (Alpha image, blend image, or
whatever) is that the edges smoothly drop off from white to black so that
the real image smoothly blends into the live video. Also, as part of an
anti-aliasing scheme, vertical and horizontal edges should drop off to
black sharply.
I have a feeling that the IShape will not be anti-aliased, and none of
the blending tools in IM (or ADPro) will intelligently anti-alias, they
will only blur the edges. Ben… please correct me if I'm wrong.
This is the same problem I'm having with Aladdin4d. It has no
intelligent anti-aliasing. It's convolve capability blurs everything!
Does anybody have experience with Jag on the Macintosh?
-Steve
Mattes created with MorphPlus are smoothly anti aliased. You can make a matte
(or moving matte) from anything that can be outlined. Multiple matte levels per
frame are also supported.
When you post in our section, please sign the messages with a name so that
our customers know who they are talking to – and so that I know who left
the message. If you do so, you are welcome to comment here. If you do NOT
do so, I will delete your messages.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I haven't tried it yet so I dunno how good the ISHAPE would be at masking
yet.
Steve,
Imagemaster allows you to create any combination of sharp and smooth edges
that you want; you simply use areas selection tools to decide where, and
how much, particular edges are affected.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I have a question about IM. I am working with DCTV and creating 3bit
anims. As most people who have done this know there are times when you
get serious color banding from converted 24bit files. What I need is a
way to apply dither to these files.
I am sure there is no way to dither 24bit files but can you, using IM,
take them down to say 21bits and apply dither and then convert to DCTV?
-=Lee=-
Thanks, Ben
-Steve
PMFJI, but, LightWave 3.0 has an Alpha Channel option for rendering!
Just though you'd be interested. :^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
P.S. I
Erik,
Does LW 3.0 output the alpha channel simultaneously with the image?
This would be optimum. If not, what we've done before is record to
different tapes the alpha animation and the real animation. We then sync
them up and send the alpha anim to the switcher's key input to punch a
hole in the background video for the real anim.
I'd love to have Lightwave, but can't afford the dongle it requires.
-Steve
That's a good question.
Since I don't know if the IFF24 format supports additional bitplanes, it
could well be saved off in the original RGB image, as a seperate channel
ala PICT2 format, or it could be saved off as a seperate 8-bit ILBM in the
same directory with a different suffix/prefix.
All I know is that there's a button you can select to 'Save Alpha
Channel'. Next time I have a chance to look at it, I will find out exactly
how the Alpha channel is created.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
P.S. But the Toaster is probably the most FUNCTIONAL dongle ever shipped
with a product. Hey, it doesn't even tie up your mouse or printer port!
:^)
Sure. Any buffer that has been assigned as the "Blend Buffer" can serve as
an alpha channel. Any buffer can be saved or painted or effected or…
:^). As for using the blend on something, that's under blend/other.
No – you can't modify the FC redraw script that way (at least, not unless
you're a GOOD programmer… we'd give it to you if you want it). However,
Imagemaster R/t will retarget to the FC24, with the same caveat as IMFC,
that is, you MUST run it in overlay mode (on one monitor).
Try something simple first – it's all there and it's pretty easy to use;
once you've done an easy one, you'll have the concepts set to do something
more ambitious. IM *can* do the alpha tasks you need, I'm certain.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
Great!!! I'm excited about IM R/t! I thought I was doing the right
thing using two monitors. Now that I am more experienced, the 2000's color
resolution and HAM artifacting really gets in my way. What's the target
release date for this, is this to be IM 10.x?
I've used the blends somewhat extensively (mostly blindly, ie: whatever
it does, it's doing it right without me really dealing with it.) I'll work
with it more and continue to ask questions (hope you don't mind). Thanks
-Steve
IM R/t is due in 2-4 weeks. :^) If you're on the autoupgrade program,
it'll arrive on your doorstep automatically. If not, it'll cost you $25.
The retail price will be $299.95.
And no, I don't mind – you have questions, I'll try hard to answer them.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Thanks, Ben
-Steve
Paul,
Do you really want to know?
-Louis
On AUTOPILOT over Chicago…
I haven't got a clue. There was some talk on another network that IM is
actually more powerful, although not so slick. I haven't tried Photoshop,
and am just an IM novice, but I'm toying with outlining an article on
Amiga DTP – Seriously, and am just gathering info.
…..Nancy
From Edmonton, AB, Canada
haven't seen the ad – is it in any of the PC mags yet? I know there's a
photoshop release for Windows…
I'd compare IM's image editing to Photoshop by saying "we blow photoshop
away" and adding _especially_ in the new R/t version. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I think she means the lack of edge detection in IM. This is what really
makes Photoshop so much better than anything else.
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
Hmm. Well, yes – if you need it. Most people apparently don't. margaret
does, we know – we're about to give it to her. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Are you talking of moi? Actually I have little use for edge detection – at
least now that is.
Yes, you – you had mentioned to me – several times – that you wanted the
"magic wand" type of operation… unless my memory has failed me, which is
entirely possible. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I hereby officially soak up Margarets request the magic wand.
Gotta have it…
Gotta have it…
Pretty please…
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
It's coming.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ok, but I don't think of edge detection as a magic wand – yes it is part of it.
Uh, BTW, Ben:
Has anyone mentioned how useful a 'magic wand' tool would be? :^)
Thanks,
Erik Flom
Magic Wand did you say? I wave my Magic Wand and **TWANG** Instantaneous
Raytraced images at 8k*8k Rez in 32 bit color appear.
What an idea.
I think so… :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
A suggestion for the manual for Image Master R/T: Please include an
indepth tutorial for the more advanced functions for us beginners.
Imagemaster is the lowest priced Power Image processor for the Amiga (or
any other platform I believe) and as such it is the 1st choice for
beginners like me. There is a wealth of features buried in IM, but I'll
be damned if I know what half of them do let alone how to use them!
Things like mast, alpha channels, black balance, ect. There is also a lot
of arexx scripts but nothing to say what they do…not even any comments
in the begining. Basically what I am trying to say here is IM is the
choice of us neophytes (and pros as well) and we need a little hand
holding to get up to speed with the more advanced functions.
my .02
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
It's in several of them. (Maybe you've seen it right now.) Neat ad.
…..Nancy
From Edmonton, AB, Canada