#What to believe
53 messages in this thread
"What to believe?"
Is that a question?
I'm still not too clear about how one might label what's going on with the
Amiga and Commodore. I read a "label" today in my email that doesn't read
well.
The author (at a major computer publication) of the message said "…we are
closely following the *demise of the Amiga* …" (My highlighting.) This struck
an E(m) chord.
So hey folks, help me out here. Am I being too naive in thinking that it's
really the demise of Commodore and not the Amiga?
It seems to me that the Amiga is not *just* a computer: it's a happening.
How does a happening just go away?
Andy
Andy,
> It seems the Amiga is not *just* a computer: It's a happening.
Commodore could have used you in the marketing dept. 🙂
There are so many rumors flying about, nobody really knows what's
going on. Pull up a chair and sit it out with the rest of us.
Commodore agreed to a voluntary liquidation, this doesn't mean the
company can't be bailed out or the technology sold.
howard
– via Whap!
[Oops! I posted this yesterday, but sent it to area #2 by mistake!]
The following was posted on ASK BBS (503 944 8291) in Louisville, Kentucky
by an employee of Mr. Horan's Computer Lab, the local Amiga dealer: —begin
quoted post— 194/200: NEw FACTS Name: Danny Daring #42 Date: Mon May 09
23:32:18 1994
We just got word today that Samsung has officially bought C= and has plans to
market and hope to make it a success. There will be an official public
announcement on May12 that will be this Thursday so stay tuned to those
business news and to CNBC and CNN to hear this announcement this may not be the
best way to go but it is a whole lot better than Gould and Ali running the show
plus if everything goes like the announcement than watch out for some nice
advertising and marketing in the US (a rarity that might become common place)
plus they claimed to plan to run a full campaign to promote the CD-32 More
great news plus the new machines will ship and there will be a reinstatement of
the A1200 Ok well Later —end quoted post—
Will pass it on if any further info is forthcoming.
>> There will be an official public announcement on May12 that will be this
Thursday so
>> stay tuned to those business news and to CNBC and CNN to hear this
announcement
Guess who ever posted that on the BBS forgot to mention in which _year_ the
announcement might come. <g>
We are all hoping for such word, but there are plenty of folks who think they
know more than they do.
Sit and wait with the rest of us. Official word is expected in awhile.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Imagine and Imagemaster R/t!
>> So hey folks, help me out here. Am I being too naive in thinking that it's
really
>> the demise of Commodore and not the Amiga?
Simply put….
At this point in time, the Amiga is dead. Unless a buyer is found who wants
to, and has the money to, ressurect the Amiga, it will stay dead.
Hopefully somebody will buy the technology with producing the comptuer in mind,
but untill, and if that happens, there will be no more Amigas.
The major argument against that happening, is that if C= went broke trying to
make a go of it, how will somebody else bring it back, and turn a profit, since
the market for the Amiga is somewhat diminished by the fact that it has gone
under, which will cause some folks to be wary of purchasing the Amiga, when
they might have been interested in it, in the past.
Commodore has been pretty well known for _NOT_ making a go of it… plus
the Amiga has been quite successful in it's niche areas. Niche area's
that were created no thanks to Commodore. The Amiga, in no way shape or
form, is a bad deal. Nor would I even consider it soured by it's past (or
lack of one) with Commodore.
Now getting Medhi and/or Irv to run a company for me… that is soured!
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Clap On! <clap clap> Clap Off! <Clap Cla{{*&NO CARRIER
>> Commodore has been pretty well known for _NOT_ making a go of it… plus
>> the Amiga has been quite successful in it's niche areas. Niche area's
>> that were created no thanks to Commodore. The Amiga, in no way shape or
>> form, is a bad deal. Nor would I even consider it soured by it's past (or
>> lack of one) with Commodore.
Everone has an opinion, and you are certainly entitled to yours.
However, you and I, both know the Amiga, and are likely to buy an Amiga, from
whomever makes them.
Outsiders do not know about Mehdi, or Gould. They do know that C= made a lot
of money at one time on the C64, so they aren't aware that C= marketing, is on
a par with Serbian Good Will efforts on Bosnia.
What they see is that a comany name they are familiar with, went belly up
trying to market a computer that they aren't familiar with. Unless a name
company takes over, they would have little cause to believe that this computer
that has died once, will have much of a chance of robust health. If a
relatively small company takes over, it would be even more important, because
they would lack the funds to withstand the losses till sales reached the point
of being profitable.
Yes, the Amiga was very successful in it's nitch. However, that wasn't enough
to keep it alive. You could have 100% of the buggy whip market, and still not
make a decent living.
True, Mehdi & Gould abused the company, took large paychecks for doing very
little effective work, but at the same time, if they gave 100% of their
paychecks back to the company, C= still would have lost money.
The last few years, C= couldn't have mounted a major marketing campaign, if
they wanted to, because they were strapped for cash. If a small firm buys the
Amiga, they will be in the same boat.
The Amiga is a damned good computer, and was on the edge of greatness. (Had
retargetable graphics, etc. been released, it would have made wonderful tool.)
What we lacked, outside of the nitch markets, was some world class business
software.
I would have loved to see 1024×768 24 bit with retargetable graphics support so
I could do PageStream and multitask, with PhotoShop like graphics image
manipulation, all through WorkBench, with no kludging around the current
operating system.
Maybe we'll get lucky yet, and it will still happen.
If it goes much beyond 30 days, I don't give it much hope. The interested will
only hang around so long, and the faithful, only so much longer.
PMFJI but; From your post:
>If it goes much beyond 30 days, I don't give it much hope. The
>interested will only hang around so long, and the faithful, only so much
>longer.
This is a special edition of the Lush Amigabaugh show! Amiga held hostage!
Day 13 for Mehdi and Irv, Day 25 for the coders and distributors and Day
2920 for AmigaUsers (excuse the forum name).
Let's just hope this hostage crises is better thought out than the Iranian
rescue. (Was General Al Haig involved in that one? – my memory fails me).
I've been lurking here long enough, thought it was time to pull up a
chair.
Visiting AmigaUser from Yokosuka, Japan
Forrest
>[Outsiders will see] a computer that they aren't familiar with
Actually, that's a better point than you think it is: Did you notice
how "the press" noted in their eulogies that Commodore was a "pioneer in
the personal computer industry", but few of them even mentioned the Amiga
computer specifically?
Since Irv & Co. were in charge of the press release, you don't suppose
that they avoided making a big deal about being the manufacturers of the
Amiga in the specific hope that selling the Amiga technology to another
party would NOT "hurt" Amiga sales, now DO you?…
(Of course, I'm still a firm believer that the whole thing is just a
"power-money" play by Irv And The Boys, so whadda _I_ know?…)
yep, i wonder where they are now.
Probably you should get Irv & Ali to handle your finances and after
they're through with you and have left no bank in its right mind will have
anything to do with you.
That's the same reasoning you use for the amiga isn't it.
maybe if you look at it this way…
why shouldn't a company invest in the amiga seeing that it's still
around without being advertised and managed right.
>> Probably you should get Irv & Ali to handle your finances and after
>> they're through with you and have left no bank in its right mind will have
>> anything to do with you.
Evidently, you are not familair with the banking/business world. Go bankrupt,
for just about whatever reason, and see if you don't have a hard time getting
credit. Perhaps the compoany you worked for went belly up, and you held down
three jobs working over 84 hours a week trying to get by, or perhaps your
spouse became afflicted with substance abuse, and the money you thought was
paying bills, was going up his/her nose, till one day the creditors are at the
door, and there is nothing to pay them with. Certainly not your fault, you are
still a good person who tried to do it right. But run on down to the local car
dealer, home mortgage company, and try to get a loan, even though you have shed
said spouse, and now have a new job that pays a good wage. Care to speculate
on the outcome?
>> That's the same reasoning you use for the amiga isn't it.
>> maybe if you look at it this way…
>> why shouldn't a company invest in the amiga seeing that it's still
>> around without being advertised and managed right.
First let me correct one statement. The Amiga is _not_ still around. It is
dead. It may or may not be resurrected, but at this point in time, there is no
company manufacturing the Amiga, or uniquelyt Amiga parts for the Amiga. The
only Amigas, or parts for the Amiga, are coming from existing stocks, that when
depleted, are the end of it. (Unless somebody buys the rights to produce
more.)
Secondly that is not the way business decisions are made. To pick up the Amiga
line, also means picking up the notions that it is a failed product with it.
To use a more common real world illustration. A restaurant that doesn't have
the greatest reputation, closes. Perhapse they had some decent stuff on the
menu. Most often the new owners change the name, redecorate, and serve
different food. Why? Certainly it would have been cheaper to keep the
original signs, and decorations. howver, they want to get away from the
preconcieved notions of the past, which would hold their business back. True,
sometimes people do simply hang out an under new management sign, and perhaps
they will this time.
You have to remember, the rest of the world doesn't know Mehdi and Gould as
intimately as we. All they know is that C=, which was once a prosperous
company, went broke trying to sell the Amiga.
I sincerely hope that somebody does buy the Amiga, and has/commits the funds to
market and continue to develop the machine. In the mean time I'll try to be a
realist about what has/is/could be happening.
For a long time the mood of the forums was don't say no discouraging words.
Well that didn't save the Amiga, and it won't resurrect it.
So tell me, how would you market the Amiga to the business world? What
softeware would you advise a Fortune 500 company to run on the Amiga as their
business computer?
-Alex Amigas since 85…. Wish'n don't make it so…
How would I market the amiga to the business world. Well before
answering I really don't think it would be necessary in the begining,
ibm has a strong hold on that just by its name alone. Business is
not the only market out there, you have the home and entertainment market
if one could get a strong hold on this market it would be easier to
then try for the business market.
One thing to think about people like ibm because of the software written
for it not because of the computer. People as far as I can tell like the
amiga because of the computer itself if not why not just write the same
software for ibm and abandon the amiga altogether.
Answer- find a cheap and effective way to run ibm software on an amiga.
Marketing- The amiga can do what there systems can do quicker & with
multitasking, but they can't do what the amiga can do video & toaster.
How would I market the amiga-
1. nintendo and sega market blitz, priority number one to take over that
market period. Not only entertainment but educational, plays cd movies
and records, home finance manager etc..The same way ibm and mac first
went after the business market we'll go after the sega market.
2. business market- ibm compatible,toaster,mac,etc…show demonstration
to execs then offer system free to them for 6 months or a year so
they can see what it can do compared to the ibm. If it does good
word of mouth among execs should give it a good name. It's a start.
A prson familiar with the system will be there during the 6months or year
to make sure things go alright.
3. Same system offered to the schools across america with the same
6 months to a year program.
Number 2 & 3 are hard but #1 is very much possible and I don't see
sega crying for money.
One more thing..you know that wife you were talking about, well I dumped
her years ago. I feel great now. I heard she remarried to some guy named
alex baker and they're both doing crack, never at work but always on his
computer she always complains. I heard she buggs him so bad he was
always in a bad mood and was way negative always coming on the computer
network with a negative attitude while smoking his pipe while his
crack addict wife is out working 84 hours a week on the streets.
Alex sounds alot like Ali to me.
really really evil grin.
You're a mean person Charles (hehehe)….
I thought I heard "Dream Weaver" playing while online.
> One more thing…<
Yikes, flamer dude. Low blow.
Stephen Bailey
Sawyer & Bailey Film & Video CIS # 72773,2451
I like your 1. and 3. but the business world I would forget about, all the
business people who make decisions know zip about computers, talk about
industry standards and drive Porsches 🙂 The most telling ad was nobody
ever got sacked for buying an IBM.
The bit I would add is to extensively modularise Ami. You want a game
machine? Buy something like a CD32 – get a system that grows with you.
You want a high end graphics workstation? Get modules a, k, l, etc.
That way you can get a vertical market in parts as people upgrade their
machines (which is almost inevitable), the lower end gets the second hand
bits and the machine dependence, the higher end gets relatively cheap
upgrades because they don't have to buy new drives etc each time they want
a new CPU.
regards, Lu on AutoPilot downunder
I would agree in large degree to what Charles said in replying to you,
however, in his "Step 1" I would go a bit further in marketing the CD32:
The "media blitz" against Sega and Nintendo is a given, in that there
are perhaps ten times as many "games consoles" as there are "personal
computers" (under any label) in the "consumer electronics" market; now
imagine that Samsung or whoever buys the Amiga and does this saturation
marketing, and by miracle of faith the Amiga CD32 lands about a third of
the console sales for Christmas '94, which means it will have outstripped
PC sales by a factor of three.
Now, _after_ Christmas, we just might see a _new_ series of ads for
Amiga-sama <g>, which would say, "You know that great games console you
just bought? Well, it _also_ makes a pretty-neat personal computer…."
If in fact Nintendo had marketed an "expansion interface" for the Super
NES (or Sega for the Genesis), then in fact nobody _outside_ of the direct
"business software" market would have ever heard of MicroSoft.
Even outside of the Amiga market, there is some perception that the Amiga's
major weakness was the company behind it. My favorite example of this was an
article in a mainstream computing magazine called "Amiga: The computer that not
even Commodore could kill." Also, for a large company, the price to buy the
Amiga is chump change compared to its potential. While it's easy to be
pessimistic about the odds of someone buying and continuing the Amiga line,
there are in fact several strong reasons why this would be interesting to
another company.
The Amiga market is a very viable market. There are 5 million Amigas in the
world, extrapolate maybe 3.5-4 million still in use (use defined as the main
desktop system for a user). Even with the admittedly large caveats of lack of
hard drives and processor speed, that's a big market to develop for.
Obviously, in relation to DOS/Windows, it's nothing, but what about compared to
OS/2? WP and other large companies have OS/2 products out there, and OS/2 has
far less users than the Amiga.
"But wait" you say, "OS/2 is used more by businesses as opposed to home users,
and therefore has a greater revenue/product ratio." That's true, business will
typically pay a higher average price per package. But look what's happened in
the PC market. Borland started a trend which still hasn't really stopped, and
that is selling software that's priced in the home user's budget range instead
of the typical business. Suddenly, software can sell in both the business
environment and the home environment. Recognizing this, both Microsoft and
WordPerfect have started home consumer lines, in addition to their discounted
business/productivity packages. MS's line of consumer product is doing
extremely well. What this all boils down to is that it is no longer critical
to be in the business market while the home consumer market, the Amiga's home
(especially so overseas, less so domestically), is becoming much more
important.
Another reason is that there won't be another opportunity (in the foreseeable
future) to get into the platform game. The Amiga has (I believe) enough
critical mass in terms of users and software to make it a viable system to
compete with Macs and PCs. Without a huge technology breakthrough, I cannot
imagine someone successfully launching a new computer platform. If you want to
be in that game, your only choice is the Amiga.
Finally, the emerging European market has great potential for the Amiga.
Europe is becoming progressively stronger as a market, especially in light of
emerging free-market ecoomies. They need computers, but they don't have a lot
of hard credit to buy them with. The Amiga 1200 is perfectly poised to take
advantage of this market, whereas the price point is so sensitive that the Macs
and PCs can't reasonbly compete. This, in my mind, is the strongest reason to
continue to push the Amiga line.
-Rusty Williams
"It's 1/8 full, I tell you!"
Good points… great post.
BTW, just where did you see that article about the Amiga? I'd like to see
it!
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Clap On! <clap clap> Clap Off! <Clap Cla{{*&NO CARRIER
It was two years ago, and I believe it was Personal Computing.
-Rusty Williams
Thanks… I should be able to track from that!
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
"If you don't straighten up young man, you'll grow up to be President!"
>OS/2 has far less users than the Amiga.
Where are your numbers? IBM claims that over 4 million copies of OS/2 have
been shipped.
Also, even supposing there are more Amigas in use than PCs running OS/2, the
OS/2 user tends to spend more for software and hardware (being primarily a
business user) making that market more attractive for third party developers
like WordPerfect (whom you mentioned). The vast majority of Amigas sold were
A500s and A1200s and millions of those don't have hard drives.
"The vast majority f Amigas sold were A500s and A1200s and millions of those
don't have hard drives." …
Ok Paul, how many "millions" of Amigas were sold?
To the best of my knowledge, no more than 5 million Amigas have been sold. I'd
guess it's closer to 4 than 5. Of those, I believe a good 75% are A500s, A600s
and A1200s.
Paul,
Of those 75% (which is a supposition), there are "millions" without hard disk?
Exactly. If not millions (5-year old A500s) in closets.
—
Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
Dale,
Care to site the specific research on that? Both you and Paul, former CBM
employees, seem to have an axe to grind. That's fine, but how about
backing up your assertions.
-sja
I have no axe to grind and no published research I could site. In fact,
I'm fairly sure that, at least in the US, no comprehensive market research
exists re: the actual number of Amigas in still in use. I am quite sure
of anecdotal evidence indicating a lot of A500s gathering dust.
—
Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
So, should I assume that neither you nor Paul can substantiate the claims? Are
the claims being made on "gut feeling"? If so, my "gut feeling" is that the
moon is made of green cheese … that doesn't necessarily make it so.
Paul:
Here are Amiga sales statistics from Newsbytes, December, 1991:
September, 1985 – Amiga introduced
March, 1989 – 1,000,000th Amiga sold
November, 1990 – 2,000,000th Amiga sold
December, 1991 – 3,000,000th Amiga sold
All numbers were taken by Newsbytes from a Commodore press release in
December, 1991.
Commodore started reporting declining sales and financial problems
immediately thereafter.
It would seem unlikely that more than another million or two Amigas were
sold, giving a total of between 4,000,000 and 5,000,000 in place. You would
seem to be quite correct in your opinion that most of those Amigas are low-end
models.
As I recall, Commodore claimed only 900,000 machines of all kinds
manufactured in 1993.
Another magazine carried an article in 1992 indicating that only 72% of
Commodore owners would purchase another Commodore machine. The company also
ranked 21st of 27 in a customer satisfaction survey.
For comparison purposes, some 15,000,000 Apple Macintoshes have been sold
since 1984 with a pro rata run rate at this time of approximately 3,000,000 –
4,000,000 machines annually. PC's have an installed based of somewhere between
70,000,000 and 100,000,000 with between 20,000,000 and 30,000,000 new machines
sold annually.
Jerry
Jerry-
Now just imagine how much higher those numbers would have been with proper
marketing and if Ali hadn't mucked things up delaying AGA and changing it
and releasing it at the end of 92 instead of earlier on.
Paul
"Now just imagine how much higher those numbers would have been with proper
marketing"
Well, there's not much to be gained by "what might have been" thinking.
In going through the ZiffNet databases, it was really kind of sad to see how
Commodore blew it. Re-read a Forbes article that appeared in 1989 talking about
Irving Gould and how lousy a job he was doing then.
The grim reality though is that any kind of "rescue" effort is probably at
least two or three years too late and even if mounted would require hundreds of
millions of dollars in capital to have a hope of succeeding on a mass market
basis.
I can easily see the Amiga continuing on as a niche market machine (i.e.,
video, kiosks, etc.), but not as a mass market product. The market is just too
competitive and far too skewed toward PC-compatibles with Apple taking up a
distant second and ever more tenuous place.
Some financial analysts, for example, think that Apple will sell only only
700,000 PowerMac's this year, 30% down from Apple's own projections of a
million machines. This will probably put lots of pressure on Apple to cut
PowerMac prices earlier than planned. Coupled with IBM's release of PowerPC
desktop machines (in addition to the workstations already in the market), there
are lots of alternatives available for the prospective user, especially as more
applications are ported over to the PowerPC and Pentium platforms. Without
getting into technical superiority arguments, it's a heck of a lot easier for a
dealer to sell a PC-compatible or Apple machine than it is to sell an Amiga, no
matter whose name is on the Amiga.
The game market is taking some major hits as well. Atari is not doing overly
well with its machine, 3DO devices aren't selling well and dealers are happy
carrying only Sega and Nintendo, especially as the number of titles increases
for these devices, forcing them to allocate more shelf space to the hot-selling
items.
People with capital generally tend to put it where the risk is the lowest:
and that sure doesn't describe the desktop computer or video game market at
this point in terms of introducing what amounts to a "new" platform. ("New" in
the sense that most people in the market either haven't heard of Commodore or
Amiga or have written them off a long time ago.)
In short, it's a very tough market out there and, in my opinion, that doesn't
auger well for the Amiga except as a niche machine.
Jerry
I can live with the Amiga as a niche machine, as long as that means video.
*B^)
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Imagine and Imagemaster R/t!
"I can live with the Amiga as a niche machine, as long as that means video."
Me too. Only reason I have one.
Jerry
How is your Toaster work coming along, anyhow?
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Imagine and Imagemaster R/t!
:How is your Toaster work coming along, anyhow?"
Not as well as I would like. The old story: too much work, not enough time to
play.
Jerry
>>Now just imagine how much higher those numbers would have…<<
Paul,
Yup. And just think how much LOWER they'd have been if all of us had only
bought ONE! <g>
How many apples were "sold" to schools? HarryM
"How many apples were "sold" to schools?"
Dunno.
Jerry
Thanks for the info confirming my guesses. Obviously I had a pretty good
inside track up until I left the place at the end of '91.
I think your number on total PCs installed is a bit dated though. I've seen
estimates as high as 140,000,000.
"I think your number on total PCs installed is a bit dated though. I've seen
estimates as high as 140,000,000."
Probably. The numbers for the installed base of PC's bounce all over the
place. Whatever it is, though, it's a big number! <G>
Jerry
'course for most things the Amigas don't need hard drives in the sense
you can't run a clone without one …oops, sorry, unless you like running
DOS by itself 🙂
regards, Lu on AutoPilot downunder
IBM's shipped over 4 million copies, but it's widely known that recipients of
PCs from IBM formatted the drive as soon as they got the machine and installed
Windows. I think that changed around a year ago. It was a funny story, in
that IBM suddenly gets completely pragmatic about their business, and started
shipping PCs with DOS/Windows installed. Apparently, it was around that same
time that demand for OS/2 increased, because they had to go back in and rip out
DOS/Windows and reinstall OS/2. On the other hand, this could have just been a
story to explain why their machines were so backed up in shipping (I waited 10
months before my Thinkpad finally arrived!)
Also, I work at Microsoft, so my numbers on OS/2 may be off a little. 🙂
-R
-R,
I, obviously, realize that Microsoft is a world-wide company, but, I
believe, the highest concentration of employees are up here in my neck of
the woods. Does that mean you are, too?
Not trying to be rude, but I think if you work at MS your understanding of
the IBM situation may be a bit skewed. Not that I know any different, just
a feel for the relationship, since we deal with both companies quite a
bit. The real people, not the guys from Egghead (or wherever).
Robb
A recent article in the Chicago Tribune went so far as to lament (my
impression) the fate of the CD32 to the fumbling hands of C=, saying that
the machine was the best game console out there.
Woops there goes another rubber tree plant!
Stephen Bailey
Sawyer & Bailey Film & Video CIS # 72773,2451
Last Monday's (May 9) issue of The (Trenton) Times had an article on the
front page of the business section about the flood of postings on usenet
about the end of Commodore. The author, Don Henry, wrote about those who
said the Amiga was a superior computer: "They were right, in a way. The
company's Amiga was way ahead of its time. But the bungled business end
of the company prevented it from being a success. As usual in business
and life, being better just wasn't good enough."
Clay Spence
That commentary was dead-on about the Amiga. Great computer, way ahead of
its time, but with a bungled business end.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Imagine and Imagemaster R/t!
>At this point in time, the Amiga is dead. Unless a buyer is found who wants
>to, and has the money to, ressurect the Amiga, it will stay dead.
How does this read:
Samsung announces their new computer, the Phoenix.
Under the photograph the caption reads: Amiga inside.
Yeah, "Amiga inside." Kinda' reads like the logo of that famoso factoria de
chips.
I seem to remeber alot of people wanting NewTek to say something like that
about their toaster <sp?> boxes. Will people cry in the future to have them
say that there's a Phoenix inside? Stay tuned, I guess. <g>
Andy
This claimer: The above statements in no way reflect any knowledge on my part
about anything pecuniary and any semblence to fictionality is purely
incidental.
Andy –
While using the name "Phoenix" for an Amiga rising from the ashes is a
nice concept, I wouldn't be surprised if the name is already trademarked
for use with computers by the company that produces the Phoenix BIOS for
MS-DOS machines.
Jeff Schweiger
Bien. ?Porque no le llama El Fenix?
In keeping with the girlfriend-from-Seville (eSpanish) theme, maybe it could be
called the Fenix? Any trademarks using that name?
Speaking of we, has anyone asked us about a name anyway?
They might just go rename it the XK-6422 for all it matters to us.
A concession:
New! The Samsung Fenix
(Model: XK-6422, 6400 series)
Amiga Inside (UM)
Andy
P.S. From the "NonSense Dept.:" I pulled the XK-6422 model number out of left
field but here's some nonsense to explain it all:
X – marks the spot
K – Korea (Samsung)
64 – 64 bits
22 – two of everything twice
Amiga Inside – en la casa de Felipe en Sevilla
UM – unregistered/unofficial mark