Anything new in sight?
46 messages in this thread
Yeah, the rumors I've heard is that the CDTV-II won't be marketed as such;
rather, it's more likely to look like an A1200 without a keyboard. That
would be some engine for FMV with a MPEG-equipped CD-ROM drive, what with
AGA.
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
Problem is, with no marketting support there will be no developer support
which means a wonderful machine with no titles. Real useful. Maybe since
they have obviously such limited resources they should just drop CDTV
altogether and focus on a market where they have limited success delpite
being such markettin dopes – video editing/animation/graphics processors.
wmc – via Autopilot!
If Commodore knuckles down and advertises CDTV as much as possible I'm
sure they could sell hundreds of them. A full page add in Time Magazine
would generate dozens of calls.
Commodore marketing, just give them a chance.
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
Hundreds won't cut the mustard. For CDTV to be a "success" to Commodore, they
must sell tens of thousands.
Wrong. Millions.
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
Right, millions would be outstanding, but that's dreaming given the "Stealth
Marketing Campaign."
Millions would be needed to make it a product profitable enough to bother
with, not to make it outstanding. Tens of millions would make it
outstanding.
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
I came across this bit of info in July's Computer Gaming World, in an
article "Inside the industry-Intermedia or intermediate Technology" on
Intermedia the heir to the international Conference on Multimedia and
CD-ROM. Where at "Tele-Communications Inc's John C. Malone boldly pledging
that his company is interested enough in the marriage of multi-media and
cable televison that they would buy 14.5 million units of the first
manufacturer to provide a "magic box" for $350 or less. Alond these lines,
Microsoft demonstrated the Smart TV interface that they are developing"
The "magic box" was not defined but sounded like an interactive TV
interface. I would think an Amiga or CDTV could be the Magic Box, of
course the price point would be a hurdle. I don't know what the cost of
the new CDTV or A1200CD will be but those are large mass production
numbers. Also if Commodore (like many other none Japanese companies) had a
longer range view, they might see that little or no profit now might mean
a stranglehold on the market in the future.
So I wonder if the Commodore was there or golfing in the Bahamas.8-)
In all fairness there was this comment "Barry Diller questioning the
wisdom of anyONE trying to sell an $800 box. In all fairness, Diller
apologized immediately thereafter, observing that there were at least two
companies in the audience trying to capture people's imagination with an
$800 box." So it goes.
Nick
I don't think that's right. Machines like CDTV are sort of razors. It is
imperative that one makes the real money from razor blades (i.e., CDs).
Commodore did set it up this way (licensing), so they would need to sell
millions of CDs, but not necessarily millions of machines.
Believe me, Nintendo doesn't make much (if anything) on a game system,
but they RAKE IT IN on cartridges. They could realistically GIVE AWAY the
console.
There aren't enough profits in razor blades to rake in big bucks without
there being lots of razors out there. Nintendo gets a much larger
kickback from cartridge licensing than anyone gets from razor blades or
CDTV titles. Nintendo can do this by licensing a patent required for
cartridges (otherwise people would just reverse engineer until they
figured out how to avoid the licensing fee). CDTV couldn't do that
because of the nature of CD-ROM, so they had to license cheap enough to
make it easier than reverse engineering.
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
No chit cherlock.
I was being sarcastic 🙂
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
I just saw some statistics in NewMedia magazine:
They estimate an installed base of 11,000 CDTV units vs an installed base
of 73,000 for CDI, and 2,500,000 MS-DOS CD-ROMS
Ouch!
Erik Flom
Erik Flom
Those numbers aren't necessarily right. Commodore UK says it sold
something approaching 30,000 CDTVs alone.
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
The source quoted was the Optical Publishing Association, and they don't
say whether these are just North Am. numbers, or what.
(Still, even adding those 30,000 units, it's about half of the total
number of PhotoCD units sold. :^(
Erik Flom
Erik Flom
Of course, Philips has spent beaucoup bucks selling whatever number of
CD-I units. C= didn't spend nearly that amount on R&D or marketing. I also
suspect that some of the CD-I sales figures I've read are wishful
thinking. Places that used to sell 'em, like Sears, are out of the
business. Nor has Tandy's VIS done at all well. This market is still ripe
for the plucking. I'd guess the Sega folks will continue to do all right,
since kids drive that market, not parents.
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
Oh well, I think it's pretty much a given that whatever market is going to
get 'plucked', it won't be C= doing the plucking.
Not unless things change dramatcially at C=.
Just my $.00002,
Erik Flom
Erik (and All)
Perhaps the dismal sales of CDTV, Tandy's VIS system, Phillips CD-I, etc
show not that the systems weren't marketed right, but rather there just
isn't really a market for this type of machine at this time. Perhaps
Commodore would be better served by concentrating on other things, as the
CDTV isn't much more than an Amiga in a different case, with an added
CDROM drive attached, if this market did seem to develop at some time in
the future, Commodore (assuming there still is a Commodore) could just
repackage whatever their current low end machine is into a consumer style
case, and have a machine ready to market.
Just MY .02
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
I think you're right on the money.
the CDTV looked like a good idea when it was announced, but our world
economy just can't afford goodies like this – right now at least.
Personally, I don't know where C= should go. (Currently, it appears to e
going to hell in a hand basket. :^) Given the paucity of Amiga game
developer's, I don't know if it's ready to go against the low end
machines, and there's just too much brand (PC, Mac, SG, etc.) in other
markets for C= to make much of a punch.
In all fairness, I will admit that the 4000 is a VERY nice machine, esp
for the price! Much better than I was expecting!
The AGA modes are nice, and I've had no problems with my cheap VGAOnly
monitor. (I can't see guru numbers, but who wants to see those anyway?
:^)
The overall design of the interior seems much better than the 3000 (you
don't have to eviscerate the beast to add RAM. :^) It's also possible to
remove the case with only 2 screws, and you don't have to remove ANY
connectors to remove the top! (Kudos there! My 12MB RAM upgrade took all
of five minutes – including the time to make room for my monitor on the
desk! :^)
The motherboard design seems very clean, and my only complaint there are
the lone mouse/joystick connectors on the left side of the machine. (Let's
see, Left, Front, Right…Have they EVER put the mouse connector on the
back of the case – along with everything else?!?)
In all, not a bad deal. Esp. for $2100! (I'm impressed!)
Just _MY_ $.0002, :^)
Erik Flom
There is a market for this type of machine. There isn't a market for an
$800 type of this machine, at least, not at the level of features provided
by CD-I/CDTV/etc.
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
You may be right that there "just is not a market for CDTV, CD-I etc at
this time", such things have happened before. But the integrating of CD
with a computer in one case was the big scheme, and CDTV missed the mark
by trying to hide that it was a computer instead of emphasize it. Apple's
new line is flaunting built-in CD slots like a new red dress. Personally I
think the first company to sell a machine that integrates CD, cable TV
interface, and highspeed comm and virtual reality with software that can
let the user to enter university labs, fly airplanes and walk on the moon
interactively will capture the market made possible by the coming
fiberoptic highway about to open to every home.
Commodore has the machine that could be the start of such a wonder, but
they would need R&D and vision that the management has never demonstrated.
It will come, and we will see telephone, answering machine, TV, home
office, remote conference, tele-university and games all magically
integrated into a personal communicator of the future. Some companys that
capture it will be the new Bell Systems and IBM's of the future.
Tom
AGA means "Amiga is Going Again"
{ Internet: jonest@hfsi.com 1:147/2020.5@fidonet }
Looks like C= already got "Plucked", to mangle a metaphor just slightly.
:^\
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I believe that NONE of the CD based multimedia machines are going to make
it until the proverbial 'Killer App' appears. The one application that
everyone sees and generates the "Gotta have it" attitude. Certainly, none
of the CDTV applications that I've run generated that emotion. Most of
them are just plain BORING.
// John – (Flying via AutoPilot)
\X/ "Worf: To Hell with the Prime Directive – Give the Borg Windows!"
I agree. However, CDTV's hardware has barely been exploited, since most of
the initial wave of titles were "shovelware." I do think some CDTV
software is pretty nifty. Especially "CD Remix," which would be impossible
on anything other than a CD-based multimedia machine. Also, the several
CDTV-based language trainers (one features "Asterix," the little French
cartoon character) that let you input your own speech using a CDTV
hardware add-on. These perhaps haven't got the wide market potential (or,
at least, advertising) they need to become killer aps, however.
Psygnosis has a couple of CDTV-based animated games on the way that use
24-bit paintings as backdrops (they're rendered down to HAM, of course).
The screen shots I've seen looked pretty good. One has a Fantastic Voyage
type plot and the other involves vampires. The best CDTV discs take full
advantage of disc storage to carry better music and sound effects than
diskette-based counterparts.
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
CD-ROM is EXPLODING on PCs right now. Many clone makers are putting in CD-ROMs
to differentiate. Gateway for example is now putting it in almost all of their
systems. Did you realize Gateway is almost as big as Commodore!?!?
Also, Apple offers Macs with CD-ROM drives installed, which is great for the CD
business.
The Sega CD drive though has been very expensive. For "edutainment" and games,
a CD drive has to be dirt cheap. The CDTV was basically too expensive, and the
titles not exciting enough. Commodore knows this though… stay tuned.
Paul.
I'll stay tuned allright. Having just bought a 4000, I'm waiting for C= to
go belly-up. (With my luck, it will. :^)
Yeah, it sure would e nice if C= jumped on the CD bandwagon…..
Thanks,
Erik Flom
Erik Flom
I just saw a demo of a kiosk system that was put together for Sears for
their automotive battery dept. — very slick, 24 bit graphics with about
1/3 screen animations and English/Espanol versions on the same CD-ROM
(both voice-overs and text).
Can you guess the platform it's based on? And their cost for the
hardware?
Made me ashamed that I had mentioned C= to my boss when we investigated
kiosk hardware.
<The answers are: PC and "under $2000">
Well, IF C= ever gets its act together and gets out the rumoured AGA CDTV
then that kiosk may be doable at $1700 (with touch screen). Now of course,
that's a big IF but the system is capable of what you are speaking of.
Couldn't you also do that with a CDTV hooked upto a DCTV?
–> "Made me ashamed that I had mentioned C= to my boss
when we investigated kiosk hardware."
Now, that is the heart of the problem. The amiga has too many IFs:
o IF C= doesn't go belly up
o IF they can produce a powerful, cost effective system
o IF they can convince enough people to take a risk with a
"minority" system
o IF third party support continues to make up for C= faults
o IF enough Amigans can actually get impressive displays done
It's an uphill battle. Perhaps there isn't a future for the Amiga, even
with it's strengths but I, for one, am not ready to abandon ship quite
yet, even if it's leaky. Of course, I've been told that I'm a dreamer so
who knows?
My 2" worth.
Andrew
I don't have the final say in these matters. Part of the problem is that POS
kiosks have to be rock-solid and not drop a single bit of information. The
slightest instability can mean a loss of a sale (*not* good). Since we plan on
having 500+ of these things, scattered in 48 states, we need to be able to
contract with various locals for service. Most of the time when I talk to local
service people about supporting C= stuff, I get blank stares or hard luck
stories about past parts problems.
I would love to have CDTV or 1200's running. It would make me the guru and
worth that 10% raise…
Yes, support is a problem. In major municipalities there are usually
several dealers to choose from but in less populated areas it would only
be Gold Express or mailorder. The problem with the Amiga is the
reputation of being buggy. I think the systems are much more stable these
days but they will never be as stable as DOS based systems, but that is
the drawback of a multitasking OS. But then, on the other hand, a CDTV
unit is easily replaced because it is all together.
Last year a there was a writeup about the Canadian Broadcasting
Corporation's new head office here in Toronto. They had St.Clair
Interactive put together a networked directory system using 40 A3000s in
kiosks linked to a central A3000. The Amigas take care of all multimedia
interaction with AmigaVision and and the server is used for database
management. Apparently, they were able to put it together in 8 weeks for
$60Gs as opposed to similar system that cost $2M. In this case they made
special use of the Amiga because all databases and user statistics were
updatable in the background due to multitasking. One of the key
advantages were the ability to prototype and in the end have a work model.
Commodore uses it as a demo at trade shows here.
Of course, POS is different from POI. Like you said, every record is
crucial.
Andrew
> they will never be as stable as DOS based systems <
MS-DOS-based systems are STABLE? When you add in SCSI boards and
network boards and some goofy damned hardware-compression setup on this
%$#&*??! TAPE BACKUP SYSTEM? What kind of DRUGS are you taking?…
Better yet, who's your System Wizard? The ringding that installed all
this crap on my boss's PC spent FOUR HOURS trying to put it together, and
then he LEFT — WITHOUT getting the system running! I spent two weeks on
the phone with Quantum, Colorado, AND Novell, all trying to patch DRIVERS
together to make this mess work; and I STILL have the system tell me it
doesn't recognize the Fixed Disk (even though it RUNS off it), and that I
occasionally don't have an A: drive.
Hey, at least I can come home to my Amiga and know that all I have to
do is push the little square button, and everything works….
That "bugginess…drawback of a multitasking OS" could have been remedied
in the same way DEC and most mainframes remedied it. Somewhere around the
design stage of the 2000 commodore could have made a MMU standard required
fare and supported protected partitions in the OS to keep runaway or badly
written applications from raping each other. Chalk up another one to the
bean counters.
Actually I think the Amiga is no more unreliable in that sense after the
intro of the 2000 and Dos2.04 than any other platform I install (including
386 and 486DX machines with UNIX inside). It gurus a lot less than the
Apple MacFX's and Quadras also with UNIX for brains, and a lot lot less
than the DEC flight simulator computers I used to install for the army and
airforce under contract….hell, we rebooted those at the start of every
shift just to reconnect fragmented memory.
Having been involved both in running a PC repair shop and later working
the Commodore Gold onsite maintenance contract, I felt the failure rate of
Ami 2000/3000 was not significantly higher and maybe even lower than the
PC's. I judge that this way: repairmen can usually tick off on any brand
machine exactly what components are going to fail. Before you finish
saying what it did, he is nodding and replacing a chip. That was not
Commodore, the problems were more random. Only the Agnus was predictable.
But every experience is different.
Tom
AGA means "Amiga is Going Again"
{ Internet: jonest@hfsi.com 1:147/2020.5@fidonet }
But the answer _could_ have been:
1/2 screen animations, Amiga 1200HD and well under $1200.00 :^)
And it'd probably run longer than a CD-ROM anyway.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I doubt that the 1200 can do 30 frames/sec for 20 secs in HAM8 mode without
some serious performance problems (degraded audio?). Our visual database runs
on the order of 500MB of data and something like 20 minutes of audio.
Kiosks are still in the realm of custom hardware. In another year I suspect
you'll be able to do the same type of interactive cut-and-paste of HQ video and
audio on your PC (and Amiga…) with clips longer than 10 secs.
I am planning on doing a bit of the visuals with my Toaster system and a
Laserdisk recorder though. You couldn't pry me off my 2000 with a crowbar. If
that happens, it'll convince the "boys upstairs" of the development potential
of the Amiga, at least. They expect to spend $500,000 to author the graphics. I
can do that for 1/10th of that (if I do it on company time, even).
Oh, I dunno. Remember, HAM8 can run in 320×200 mode just fine… which
means very low contention (because it's low-res) no flicker (because it's
not interlace) and a fairly low data rate (because it's lowres nonlace…
64k per frame, 30 fps = 1.9 mb/s _uncompressed) which isn't too awful bad
for an '020 and some straightforward compression scheme (IE, _not_ the
"ANIM" Schemes which are very slow compared to what they could be… even
so you might be able to do it) Audio runs in it's own DMA channel,
shouldn't do zip to the playback rate. Access to video ram at 7 mhz, 32
bits wide (as the AGA chip set allows) is about 28 mb/s bandwidth. Cut
that in half for the 8-bit contention (I'm guessing here) and you're well
within the xfer rate you need for the CPU. IDE drive… well, I doubt it.
But there are other alternatives, aren't there? I've really not paid that
much attention to the 1200 aftermarket – I'm happy with mine as it is.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
320×200 doesn't cut it in the presentation graphics world. People want
NTSC resolution and better than NTSC color.
Believe me, I'd use Amigas in a second if I could satisfy the specs for
the system we're planning on using. At this point, it looks like all the
solutions are expensive and PC based. All the video cards used to do
full-screen NTSC res animation are TI 34xxx based monsters.
I assume it's PC based, right?
Why are you now ashamed you mentioned C= to your boss? I don't understand.
Because you don't think the Amiga could live up to what you saw on the Sears
system?
Just curious.
Paul.
I was "ashamed" for 2 reasons: first, the PC based system was cheap and
used off-the-shelf parts for the most part…second, after mentioning C=
my boss pondered a moment and said, "didn't their stock just take a big
dive?". He follows the stocks the way other people follow STTNG.
I've put $3000 into my 2000 and expect to spend another $2000 soon. Even
if C= folds, I can make do with what I've got (or am getting). That's not
true when you need to support 100's of C= based systems spead all over the
country.
Erik,
You do realize that a small percentage of those 2,500,000 MS DOS
CD-ROMS are going in Amigas not PC's
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
Paul,
How's it going? We've talked on the phone a few time and met at ImageWorld San
Jose. As someone who works for a company that seems to do everything right any
insight into one that seems to do everything wrong? Having been there, any
thoughts on CBM's tendency to look at next week instead of two or three years
down the road. I mean how can a major company introduce two exciting new
products and then post a $177 million loss? I'd like to discuss it with you
sometime and I always enjoy your postings.
All The Best,
Tom Patrick
InnoVision
They no longer exist. To that end—how can a major corp. introduce two
exciting new platforms and then post a $177+ loss?? The stock's in the
basement, marketshare drifting away and these guys are down in the islands
fishing!!zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz….oh, I was having a nightmare!
Tom Patrick
"If C= put a full page ad in Time magazine, it would generate dozens of calls."
This is the biggest problem that C= has with advertising these days: if they
were to advertise in national media, where would they send these interested
buyers? Remember that C= isn't a mail order operation like many of the PClone
sellers; they have a (very thin) dealer network. This is THE biggest reason
that C= has given for not doing national advertising in the US.
Jack,
You are 100% on target.
It is so eeeasssyyy to say — Commodore should advertise more!
The lack of distribution of Amiga hardware via a dealer network, along
with no Amiga software distribution will kill the Amiga. The only thing
Commodore can do to change this is to focus on the remaining dealers and
work to make them profitable.
Will they do this? I doubt it. It is easier to try to build a system and
hope that they can 'create' a new C64. Of course you and I know they
can't, however those who make decisions haven't figured this out yet.
It is too bad really.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Last I checked, Commodore didn't qualify for public service Ad time.
There isn't any money to advertise. There may not be money to survive.
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.