#meshes…
50 messages in this thread
From the technical point of view, you cannot protect anything. All these
dongles, CDs etc. are nothing. For a dongle, you can write crack, CD can be
copied etc. The problem with meshes is, that it is not necessary to have a
manual. You can copy and crack 3DS itself. It is no problem, but everyone which
want to use this software professionaly will need the manuals, support etc. So
every professional company oriented on PC animations will buy 3DS with or
without any dongle. But meshes are totally different, you can simply make a
copy of Viewpoint Datashop CD and you are ready to use all models. So only way
how to succesfully sell meshes, IPAS modules etc. is to have a good pricing.
The example of a good pricing is your CD. The example of a very bad pricing are
Schreiber's IPASes. Because these IPAS modules are so expensive, almost all of
them are here in the cracked versions. If the price of the IPAS modules will be
around $50 – $100, I am sure that a lot of anim. companies here will buy them.
PavelK
<< The example of a very bad pricing are Schreiber's IPASes. Because these IPAS
modules are so expensive, almost all of them are here in the cracked versions.
If the price of the IPAS modules will be around $50 – $100, I am sure that a
lot of anim. companies here will buy them.>>
I would buy almost any IPAS at almost any price. Oh, the Jaguar that I want
is way too expensive, I think I'll just steal one:-(
Do you know any pirates? Or where to get pirated software?:-(
Kurt
Kurt,
> I would buy almost any IPAS at almost any price. Oh, the Jaguar that I want
>is way too expensive, I think I'll just steal one:-(
Almost everyone in USA or West Europe can buy every IPAS. A lot of peoples can
simply buy 3D Studio which cost less than their one-month salary. But in East
Europe, the situation is totally different. Average salary of a very good
programmer or computer expert is around $500 – $600. Large companies (like
DELL, ZENITH, IBM, etc.) have their offices here in Prague. The average salary
of the director of such office is around $1000 – $1500. The average price of 30
sec. of the computer animation is around $1000. Under these conditions,
companies here in Czech republic simply cannot buy any IPAS at almost any
price.
>Do you know any pirates? Or where to get pirated software?:-(
Why are you asking ? Actually, the situation here is going better and better
(for me, as a programmer and developer) and regular software market is
established. But still there is a lot of pirates etc. Four years ago, it was
absolutely legal in Czech republic to copy/distribute everything. When the
first software copyright law was established 3,5 years ago, the first thing
which Borland does was "amnesty". This amnesty was based on the simple rule.
The price for everyone who has illegal copy of Borland product was $10 (yes,
ten dollars). The result is clear. At the time present, Borland has the
absolutely gratest market share. At the time present, prices are approx. the
same as in West Europe and peoples are buying upgrades etc. like crazy.
PavelK
<<Almost everyone in USA or West Europe can buy every IPAS. A lot of peoples
can simply buy 3D Studio which cost less than their one-month salary.>>
Somebody wake up this guy or I'll faint… If it's so cheap to buy 3D Studio
then why there are so many people looking for secondhand copies?
<<Average salary of a very good programmer or computer expert is around $500 –
$600.>>
That's how much advertising costs in the US magazine that has a circulation of
60,000 – 100,000 copies (average price, black&white and half the size of a
credit card, placed at the back of an issue).
<<Large companies (like DELL, ZENITH, IBM, etc.) have their offices here in
Prague. The average salary of the director of such office is around $1000 –
$1500. The average price of 30 sec. of the computer animation is around $1000.
Under these conditions, companies here in Czech republic simply cannot buy any
IPAS at almost any price.>>
This means nothing to me Pavel. I don't live in the Czech republic and I have
to pay for my food, clothes, rent, software and hardware. You can have my
sympathy but I do not accept your arguments. Nobody here gives me a break just
because I'm young and want to build a company.
<<This amnesty was based on the simple rule. The price for everyone who has
illegal copy of Borland product was $10 (yes, ten dollars).>>
If I sold my products at $10 then I'd go broke. Borland did this because they
already had a large sum of money from people who bought legitimate copies and
upgrades. It is the Western computer users who financed this marketing move.
Eastern Europe is just beginning to see piracy as a crime. I've seen Eastern
Europe's computer fairs organized in schools (!), stadiums, etc. where
literally thousands of illegal copies of software were sold with photocopied
manuals. How could you survive and build a company as large as Borland in such
environment? I get the feeling that you've never been to the West or you've
never understood how the software industry works.
Jacek Artymiak (Bitmap Studios Ltd.)
Jacek,
I think your answer is very realistic. I think Pavel is working on the wrong
side of the equation. If he got with it he has the talent to potentially be the
next Bill Gates of Czech but he's got to understand Western Marketing
realities. Maybe your explanation will help.
-JE
Nice to see that someone agrees with me <g>
I don't know what equation Pavel is using but he got his numbers wrong. He may
be a successful businessman in the Czech republic but he is not accustomed to
the realities of life in the West.
Jacek Artymiak (Bitmap Studios Ltd.)
Jacek,
I think people that understand marketing realities do agree with you, it just
may be awkward for some to speak up. One may be able to sell 50 or 60 units on
Compuserve for $10 but that's market pentatration. Heck, I put shareware on the
forum of software which has a much broader utility than an MGA II driver and
there may be 100 downloads. I have yet to recieve a dollar from my efforts;
not that I mind, I made it shareware to keep the rights to it. But the point
is, the 3DS market is much larger than Compuserve and to reach all the
potential customers for the "real time" driver is going to cost. And if Pavel
makes 50 sales over a six month period at $200 a piece, subtract for
advertising, my guess is he would be making about $750 a month on his effort
and that's before taxes. This may be a lot by Czech standards but not by
American standards. And that would be more or less a full time effort, not to
mention a fair amount of up front capital. I'm rather dubious as to whether
$1000 a month to reach the required market potential is realistic either. Of
course he could get some free advertising through reviews which would help.
What do you think of these numbers?
-JE
Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but this looked like a good place to jump
in… I think a lot of shareware authors are mistaken about their potential
return. It's the old "if we could just sell one tea bag to evvery tenth
citizen in China…" argument.
Another thing we all need to keep in mind is how to pay for the kind of nice,
long-term support we like in the software we buy. If on one hand we wish that
the company should be around in six months to fix a minor bug, and in a year
for the next version, then you need to work those overhead costs into all
calculations of profit and investment.
John,
I really uploaded those utilities as partly a market test but mostly as a
public benefit. As I said I kept them shareware in order to retain the rights.
I've religiously updated them once a year. <G> And for the praise and thanks
I've recieved it has been well worth it.
>> Another thing we all need to keep in mind is how to pay for the kind of
nice, (needed!) long term support we like (demand <g>) in the software we
buy… then you need to work those overhead costs into all calculations…
Absolutely! Something that can kill a company fast is product support, but
which, as American Consumers, we've come to expect. I didn't specifically
mention that other than to say that "it was more or less a full time effort"
for that very reason. I think some people have the impression that this kind of
thing can be done as a hobby on the side after work, well maybe at $10 a
program but what kind of support can you expect to get and who is going to
spend a half hour on the phone helping you solve your problems at that rate. If
its a serious product with serious professional application, its got to be the
real thing. Nobody has yet figured out a way to do this any less expensively
other than to mass market a lot of products together. Which is actually a good
reason to get with a mass marketing effort, where Pavel has a better chance to
make a success of it. You can be congratulated on your success, as I think you
are the exception not the rule. Typically follow up product is where one
starts to pass break even. I'm only aware of your CD currently, so excuse me if
I've missed some of your other efforts. (Now there's an opening for a "free"
plug. <g>)
-JE
-JE
If you still think "development cost" is a significant portion of a software
budget…your sense of business reality is a little off too, it seems for the
west.
It seems Pavel's basic creative genius would adapt and excel in business in any
country, and I am sure he would rapidly adapt to the corruption and piracy at
the developer level, it's just another system to learn and he seems quite
fluent in many.
<<If you still think "development cost" is a significant portion of a software
budget…your sense of business reality is a little off too, it seems for the
west.>>
That depends where you start Rachel. If you have to buy hardware and software
at full prices, salaries, advertise, etc. then the cost is significant. If on
the other hand you have a luxury of getting software for free or heavily
discounted prices and you work at your own paces when you please without any
fixed deadline then your development costs are bound to be low and other
expenditures like advertising become more significant. I'm not jealous that
Pavel got what I'd have to pay for a few thousand bucks. I'm merely trying to
point out that he cannot expect western developers to sell their products to an
unsecure market at low prices just because people over there make less money
than people in the West. He's way out of touch with western realities saying
that almost everybody can buy their own copy 3D Studio for less than a month's
salary. Actually I'm not surprised considering the fact that he admitted in
another thread that he knows American law from films and books. In films
everybody is making big $$$$ <g>.
<<It seems Pavel's basic creative genius would adapt and excel in business in
any country, and I am sure he would rapidly adapt to the corruption and piracy
at the developer level, it's just another system to learn and he seems quite
fluent in many. >>
I'm not criticizing his business acumen. I'm simply saying he's got to learn a
thing or two about the West before he tries to talk about it.
Jacek Artymiak (Bitmap Studios Ltd.)
I hesitate to jump in here, but there is one thing that I think needs to be
pointed out.
While BOTH you and Pavel have each made valid points, if you read his messages
to John about his "early" day in computers, you will realize that he and all
the other computer-types in Eastern Europe had to get their start through what
I might dub "underground" or "guerrilla" tactics. They were trying to flourish
under an oppressive and "cut-off" (intellectually, from the free-flowing
information of the West) regime. Now, things are different — but it will take
time for their well-established ways of doing things (the things that they HAD
to do then) — things that are "wrong" by Western standards — to be corrected.
Some people, like Pavel, will "adapt" to the new reality more quickly than
others — ie, making a concious effort to _buy_ things through legit channels.
Yes, the peoples of Eastern Europe WILL have to learn to play be Western
standards in order to fully realize business realtionships with us, but the key
is in understanding that this will not happen over night. Hopefully,
discussions like this (barring evil and flaming private email from cowards who
won't spit their venom in public) will help our mutual understanding.
Dave
I just wanted to make sure it was clear that I was in NO way implying that any
member of Bitmap Studios sent any of the nasty private messages that I
mentioned, to Pavel — I have no knowledge one way or the other.
I just got to thinking last night that it may have been unclear in the text of
my previous message.
Dave
>That's how much advertising costs in the US magazine that has a circulation of
>60,000 – 100,000 copies (average price, black&white and half the size of a
>credit card, placed at the back of an issue).
The same is here in several magazines. These magazines have the problem that
nobody wants (and can) place ads in them.
>to pay for my food, clothes, rent, software and hardware. You can have my
>sympathy but I do not accept your arguments. Nobody here gives me a break just
>because I'm young and want to build a company.
You are right. But if you are selling IPAS in the US, why not to sell them in
the East Europe (with lower prices) if you can. Better to sell 100 copies per
$100 than to sell nothing. If I want to hit the market, I need to have
acceptable prices. We had the same problem with the export of our products. The
customer must be able to buy the product if I want to sell.
>Europe's computer fairs organized in schools (!), stadiums, etc. where
>literally thousands of illegal copies of software were sold with photocopied
The situation is much better now. It is possible to say that there is the
normal software market. And this market was built thanks to the policy of
special prices.
>environment? I get the feeling that you've never been to the West or you've
>never understood how the software industry works. Actually, I was for a long
time in Germany and Austria. And as a owner of computer company, I think that I
understand the problem a bit <BG>.
PavelK
Pavel…do you advertise though there?
What kind of software does your company primarily sell, if you are just
starting IPAS dvelopment?
>What kind of software does your company primarily sell, if you are just
>starting IPAS dvelopment?
We are the networking company. We are installing large optical networks, Novell
systems etc. The second part of our company is a manufacturer of measuring
instruments for fibre optics and metal cables.
PavelK
I see you have an Irish name. Well, the Irish have been oppressed by London
for many years, therefore, you can feel free to pirate as much British software
as you like! Eastern Europe oppressed itself, so I think they should be able
to steal as much Czech software as they like, as well as Soviet software since
they helped oppress them, too. But they should leave the USA software alone,
please.
Pirates always have a dozen justifications for what they do…
Actually, the Viewpoint disc is key-protected. I've never heard that this
scheme has been cracked. In theory, you can always crack, but it's much easier
for a developer (a writer of code) to make life hellish for crackers, and to
making cracking more time-consuming than it's worth.
I appreciate your kind words about the pricing of the Syndesis 3D-ROM, but
there are many people who still feel that our price is too high. We devoted at
least a man-year of effort to the "value added" in terms of the conversion of
all the models to various formats, and to the texture maps, yet many people
wanted it to be $50 like every other shovelware CDROM of PC software. We're
lucky that we didn't have the same motivation as the commercial modeling
companies… we wanted to show people what InterChange can do. Because we used
freely distributable models, we didn't restrict their redistribution. In
theory, according to US law, I'm sure we could have restricted them: because we
added value to them through conversion. I'm hoping that we'll continue to be
able to make more Syndesis 3D-ROMs in the future. It's also unusual that we've
offered to include any sort of advertising material on the disc from any
3D-related vendor. It takes them by surprise! They've never had someone offer
them a "no charge" advertising opportunity. It's not a problem for us because
we've already provided a mechanism for us to get paid for the project. It's
not a problem for contributors to our CD, because we give them a free CDROM.
Hi John, yeah, really no matter how low software goes people will still crack
it. and.. it only takes one employee making these key locked cds to offer the
technologie to others if he is a disgruntled employee. It is just as easy to
work for both sides, and the company has no idea. It has happened, is
happening, and will always happen. This is just a fact of life.
Mark
As for Schreiber's IPASes, I'm sorry to hear that their protection scheme was
cracked. I don't remember their IPASes as being particularly high-priced…
From a profit standpoint, there's no way on Earth to sell IPASes in Europe with
a consumer "street" price of $50 to $100. Some people will try, but they will
not be profitable, and they will not last long, so don't think you've proved me
wrong by pointing out the company that tries to do this.
There's direct mail, of course. That might make it possible to lower prices.
But air mail letters from the US to Europe are a minimum of 50 cents each,
typically more like $1 for several pages, so direct mail becomes expensive very
quickly.
But if there's any middle-man, they want their percentage, typically 8 to 15
percent. Do the math: if the developer says the retail price is $100,
distributors might expect to pay only $50 for it, and they add their
percentage, then it goes to your local dealer, and they want a percentage.
Meanwhile, back at the beginning of this stream, the developer has $50 to pay
for the cost of the package (paper, disks, etc.) plus advertising costs (1/4
page ads in Cadence or other CAD magazine are at least $1250 a pop) plus
overhead of an office and order-takers and shipping people. Subtract all that,
and try to pay yourself on the remains. It's not going to be easy!
>As for Schreiber's IPASes, I'm sorry to hear that their protection scheme was
>cracked. I don't remember their IPASes as being particularly high-priced…
For East Europe, the price around $250 – $300 is simply unacceptable.
>From a profit standpoint, there's no way on Earth to sell IPASes in Europe
>with a consumer "street" price of $50 to $100. Some people will try, but they
>will not be profitable, and they will not last long, so don't think you've
>proved me wrong by pointing out the company that tries to do this.
I am sure that there is a way. East European countries are full of very good
and very cheap programmers. There is a great chance to establish development
team for IPAS modules here in Europe. The prices of IPAS modules developed by
this team can be around $50 – $100 here in Europe. The price for US market can
be around $150 – $200. This is a way how several German and Austrian companies
started the software development in my country. These companies started to
develop programs (mainly database applications) for German/Autrian customers
here in Prague. The investment for establishing such company is minimal (from
US point of view). This is the way how I'm trying to start IPAS development
with my company. We started as a small two man company four years ago. We
started with LAN installations etc. Now, our company is a full house of
peoples, with $7 mil. turnover in last year. I started to build the multimedia
division several months ago and we will see, if there will be a possibility to
sell IPAS modules around $100. And the whole investment was: $700 for MetaWare
compiler and 3 x $400 as a salary for one programmer. We got the 3D Studio and
IPAS Toolkit free from Autodesk office here in Prague.
PavelK
<< For East Europe, the price around $250 – $300 is simply unacceptable. >>
Be realistic Pavel, it is a very reasonable price level. Some IPAS routines are
the result of many years of studying, hard work and substantial investment.
People in the West (just like folks in Easter Europe) have to eat, want to have
a good house, need to feed their families, etc. How can you expect them to sell
their know-how at low prices when the market for their products is very
limited?
<<I am sure that there is a way. East European countries are full of very good
and very cheap programmers. There is a great chance to establish development
team for IPAS modules here in Europe. The prices of IPAS modules developed by
this team can be around $50 – $100 here in Europe. The price for US market can
be around $150 – $200.>>
I don't think the price for the US market is higher just because those
companies want to rip off the rich, decadent Americans <big <G>>. You are
forgetting the cost of translation of manuals, different packaging, marketing,
support and distribution. Those costs are substantial in the US simply because
of the distance, the size and the quality of the US market.
<< This is a way how several German and Austrian companies started the software
development in my country. These companies started to develop programs (mainly
database applications) for German/Autrian customers here in Prague. The
investment for establishing such company is minimal (from US point of view).>>
That may be the way German/Austrian developers work but this may not
necessarily be the way in the US. Why don't you give an example of a European
company that produces CAD and 3D software comparable to AutoCAD and 3D Studio.
You need a lot of knowledge & investment for that sort of product. Writing
database applications for small businesses is relatively cheap and easy. There
are many database engines available on the market and you can write a simple
application within a week (or less). The cost of establishing a software
development company is in most cases insignificant when compared to the cost of
development and support of high quality software. You don't seem to grasp the
whole picture Pavel.
<<Now, our company is a full house of peoples, with $7 mil. turnover in last
year. I started to build the multimedia division several months ago and we will
see, if there will be a possibility to sell IPAS modules around $100. And the
whole investment was: $700 for MetaWare compiler and 3 x $400 as a salary for
one programmer. We got the 3D Studio and IPAS Toolkit free from Autodesk office
here in Prague.>>
Ok, tell me why didn't you buy 3D Studio and IPAS toolkit then? You got it for
free and then you expect someone who has to pay the full price to sell their
products cheap? Which planet do you come from?
Your investment in IPAS development was $1900. Mine would have to be aprox.
$12000 (I have to _buy_ 3D Studio and IPAS toolkit). Your costs are low so why
don't you sell your IPAS routines for $47.5? (Thats $12000/$1900 x $300).
I think you should try to live in the West for a couple of years before you
comment on prices, costs and what is acceptable in general. I advise you to go
to the UK for a crash course in the high cost of living.
And one last thing. If you don't like the prices don't buy the products. Using
high prices as an excuse for pirating software is a very effective way of
losing friends in this business.
Jacek Artymiak (Bitmap Studios Ltd.)
<< For East Europe, the price around $250 – $300 is simply unacceptable. >>
>Be realistic Pavel, it is a very reasonable price level. Some IPAS routines
>are the result of many years of studying, hard work and substantial I am
realistic. I'm also IPAS developer, so I know how long was the studying phase.
But I'm living in the East Europe, so I know that from the bussiness point of
view, the mentioned IPAS price is unacceptable. I am sure, that it is better to
get less money than to sell nothing.
>I don't think the price for the US market is higher just because those
>companies want to rip off the rich, decadent Americans <big <G>>. You are
>forgetting the cost of translation of manuals, different packaging, marketing,
>support and distribution. Those costs are substantial in the US simply because
>of the distance, the size and the quality of the US market.
Yes, you are right. For US market, it is necessary to have better support,
manuals, package etc. So the prices are higher. BTW, your words about ripping
off the Americans is not so unreal. If you as a foreigner will come to Prague,
your price for hotel will be 100% higher than for me as a Czech. It is a normal
practice here. All hotels, restaurants etc. have special prices for foreigners.
I think that this is terrible, but this practice exists.
>Ok, tell me why didn't you buy 3D Studio and IPAS toolkit then? You got it for
>free and then you expect someone who has to pay the full price to sell their I
wanted to buy, but in the Autodesk office told me that this is a normal
practice to get the 3DS and Toolkit as a registered MM developer.
.. will continue
<<I am realistic. I'm also IPAS developer, so I know how long was the studying
phase. But I'm living in the East Europe, so I know that from the business
point of view, the mentioned IPAS price is unacceptable. I am sure, that it is
better to get less money than to sell nothing>>
Ok, so you live in Eastern Europe and you you've got your cheap labor and
resources. I'm not saying that you shouldn't sell the product at a much lower
price over there. It's your money. But don't confuse the retail price with the
amount of actual income that developer receives. The price directly reflects
the cost of development and support. Those costs are much higher in the West
and that's why we cannot bring our prices down. IPAS, wordprocessors and games
are all software. However they sell to different markets and if you do not
understand the relationship between the size of the market and the unit price
then I have to refer you to some sort of basic business textbook.
<<BTW, your words about ripping off the Americans is not so unreal. If you as a
foreigner will come to Prague, your price for hotel will be 100% higher than
for me as a Czech. It is a normal practice here. All hotels, restaurants etc.
have special prices for foreigners. I think that this is terrible, but this
practice exists.>>
I understand that this is the standard practice in Eastern Europe but this is
not the way to attract foreigners, is it?
<< I wanted to buy, but in the Autodesk office told me that this is a normal
practice to get the 3DS and Toolkit as a registered MM developer.>>
Well, that may be true but as you admitted your MM department consists of only
one person working late at night. How can you compare yourself to the teams
working on multimedia products for 12 or more months? You've got no touch with
reality Pavel.
<<If there will be no market for $100 IPAS, I'll lower the price.>>
Let us know when you make your first 'IPAS' million (American $, not Czech
koruns…).
<<I am affraid that you didn't fully understand what I wrote. I didn't mention
high prices as a excuse for pirating software. I only objectively described the
situation here. And as I was able to see the development of the software market
here in Czech in last four years, low prices is the best protection against
software piracy. Almost all leading software companies like Microsoft, Borland,
Lotus, Novell have special prices for east european market. Autodesk products
are also much cheaper here. Of course, reexport of these products is strictly
prohibited.>>
I understand this too well. Those low prices are subsidized by the users over
here. Large companies which are able to release software in hundreds of
thousands of copies can afford that luxury. People working on specialist
software like IPAS processes can't do that because they release fewer copies of
their products.
<<But if you are selling IPAS in the US, why not to sell them in the East
Europe (with lower prices) if you can. Better to sell 100 copies per $100 than
to sell nothing. If I want to hit the market, I need to have acceptable
prices>>
By now you should know that $100 is not what I'd get as a developer. I do not
have to sell to Eastern Europe. There is no law in this world that says so. It
is better to sell 100 copies at $300 (retail) and have 100 legitimate users
that to sell 500 at $100 (retail) and have
500 legitimate users and 2,000 pirates.
<<The situation is much better now. It is possible to say that there is the
normal software market. And this market was built thanks to the policy of
special prices.>>
Yeah, but your law system does not protect intellectual property.
<< And this market was built thanks to the policy of special prices.>>
Yes, but at what cost? Why should I finance your cheap prices? You say that the
first copyright legislation was introduced four years ago. This means that
Eastern Europe was freely allowed to steal PC software for around ten years.
And you want low prices? Please think for a minute. Think Pavel.
<<Actually, I was for a long time in Germany and Austria. And as a owner of
computer company, I think that I understand the problem a bit <BG>.>>
I'll leave that last sentence from your message without any comments.
I really enjoy this conversation, I really do 🙂
Best regards,
Jacek Artymiak (Bitmap Studios Ltd.)
>don't you sell your IPAS routines for $47.5? (Thats $12000/$1900 x $300). If
there will be no market for $100 IPAS, I'll lower the price.
>I think you should try to live in the West for a couple of years before you
>comment on prices, costs and what is acceptable in general. I advise you to go
>to the UK for a crash course in the high cost of living.
The living costs in Czech republic are approx. the same as in the whole Europe.
Only the standard of living is much lower. The prices are one thing, the
salaries are other thing. As I wrote, average salary in our country is around
$250. The price of a small car, for example, is around $10.000,- So you can
calculate the average standard of living.
>And one last thing. If you don't like the prices don't buy the products. Using
>high prices as an excuse for pirating software is a very effective way of
>losing friends in this business.
I am affraid that you didn't fully understand what I wrote. I didn't mention
high prices as a excuse for pirating software. I only objectively described the
situation here. And as I was able to see the development of the software market
here in Czech in last four years, low prices is the best protection against
software piracy. Almost all leading software companies like Microsoft, Borland,
Lotus, Novell have special prices for east european market. Autodesk products
are also much cheaper here. Of course, reexport of these products is strictly
prohibited.
PavelK
I hope you don't think we're all jumping on you about these issues… I, for
one, find it fascinating to hear what a programmer's life is like in other
parts of the world.
As for the salary figures you've quoted, are those per-month or per-year? What
is the "cost of living" per month for that imaginary programmer?
As for your notion that lowering the price of software prevents piracy… I
don't think so. I think it might increase sales, but I don't think it would
necessarily reduce piracy. People will still pirate it. After all, even if
the software was cheap, they still wouldn't want to buy everything they "want
and must have."
>I hope you don't think we're all jumping on you about these issues… I, for
It is OK, but some messages seems like "dialog between deafs". I only hope that
I will not loose friends when I objectively describe the situation.
>As for the salary figures you've quoted, are those per-month or per-year? What
>is the "cost of living" per month for that imaginary programmer?
Salaries I mentioned was per-month. And costs of living ? Try to count with me.
Let's say that our imaginary programmer has a salary $500 (very good). Taxes
$100 Flat, electricity $150 (small appartment, 2 rooms+kitchen)
Food $120 Phone $ 20
Subtotal $390
so, you can save approx. $110 per moth (if you have no childrens etc.) Several
other prices: Computer <g> $2000 – $3000 depends on config. prices are a bit
lower than US Pair of shoes $100 Jacket $100 (czech made) $800 (good
mark, like Boss, Valentino etc.) TV $500 – $1000 Car from
$10.000
>As for your notion that lowering the price of software prevents piracy… I
>don't think so. I think it might increase sales, but I don't think it would
You are right that low prices will not prevent piracy completely. But can lower
the number of potential pirates.
PavelK
OK, I'll try to estimate costs here in the US. I live in a small town in the
Midwest, which is considerably cheaper than other places with more famous
names. Of course, I need to drive at least 20 minutes to reach a restaurant
that uses sub-dried tomatoes.
A good PC programmer might get $35,000 to $55,000 a year around here. Add at
least 25% to move them to California, although a programmer out there might get
$100,000 or more if they're really good. That would mean taxes at about 28%.
An apartment here might cost $500 a month, plus utilities. Double that in
California, at least.
>A good PC programmer might get $35,000 to $55,000 a year around here. Add at
>least 25% to move them to California, although a programmer out there might
>get $100,000 or more if they're really good. That would mean taxes at about
>28%. An apartment here might cost $500 a month, plus utilities. Double that
>in California, at least.
Maybe I should move to US <BG>. With these number, you are right that the price
around $300 for IPAS is OK.
PavelK
I think one has to be in Pavel's place to really understand what is going on in
another country that does not have the way of life we have. We in Canada, and
in the U.S. are really spoiled. and .. hey that is the way it is, you just take
it for granted.
Mark. just an opinion. Actually, the only think to do is not ship stuff to
other places and let people do their own work. If you don't like the prices,
make your own programs. Supposedly people have the same intellegence all over
the world. Hmmm, interesting eh ? It is my choice if I want to buy something,
if it is too expensive, I go elsewhere or do myself.
So the economy and opportunities are good enough in your country that your
company started as two people four years ago, and now it's grossing $7 million
a year, but you can't afford $200 IPAS routines? And you've invested $2,000 in
IPAS deevlopment so far, and can sell them for $100? Why, you only need to
sell twenty to break even, and then the twenty-first sale is *pure profit.*
🙂
>So the economy and opportunities are good enough in your country that your
>company started as two people four years ago, and now it's grossing $7 million
>a year, but you can't afford $200 IPAS routines? And you've invested $2,000
Yes, I can. If I will need to use some IPAS, I'll buy the routine (or write my
own, it depends on price). If you look in your papers, you will see that I
bought your CD, although I had a chance to buy pirated copy. But I don't like
pirated software. I was so "crazy" (as my friends told me) that I bought
MetaWare/Pharlap instead of copying some pirated one.
But my company is not the average case. Average end-user (or average computer
dealer) is not able neither to buy $200 IPAS nor subscribe CI$. It is possible
to say that my salary is at the same level as the average salary in west
europe. And this is a BIG difference between me and other peoples here in Czech
Republic.
>in IPAS deevlopment so far, and can sell them for $100? Why, you only need to
>sell twenty to break even, and then the twenty-first sale is *pure profit.* I
need to increase our profit <really BG>. But seriously, if I'm able to have a
low development costs, I can have low prices. But the price cannot be too low.
PavelK
Pavel,
Regardless of the fact that alot of people are flaming you, you present alot of
valid points regarding the inability to structure software pricing so that the
peoples of various countries have the same abilities to purchase software.
Additonally the extremely high cost of software in your part of the world no
doubt leaves a large number of individuals with no other choice but to use
pirated copies. I sympathize with a number of them.
Paul
P.S. – My sister just returned from a year long stay in Praque. Very
interesting place. 🙂
>Regardless of the fact that alot of people are flaming you, you present alot
>of valid points regarding the inability to structure software pricing so that
>the peoples of various countries have the same abilities to purchase software.
>Additonally the extremely high cost of software in your part of the world no
>doubt leaves a large number of individuals with no other choice but to use
>pirated copies. I sympathize with a number of them.
Thank you for your support <g>. Actually, I got several really … lets's say
"dirty" messages (by e-mail, not here in ASOFT forum). I don't know why some
peoples are like crazy when someone try to describe situation in other part of
the world. In one message, one "gentleman" tried to suggest that it will be
better for me "switch-off the modem and never return". Interesting lesson in
democracy <G>.
>P.S. – My sister just returned from a year long stay in Praque. Very
>interesting place. 🙂
So, you know the situation here a bit.
Best regards
PavelK
Pavel,
Definately don't switch off that modem! Only a complete idiot would suggest
anything along those lines.
Although I unfortunately didn't make it to Praque during her last visit, I will
hopefully be visiting later this year. Through daily conversations and
thousands of pictures/tapes I feel like I've lived there.
Regardless of the unfortunate slants towards your country's government and
laws, the fact remains that the U.S. has an overabundance of software pirates
who have no other rationale for pirating software than ripping off programmers.
In the 3D Studio arena, there is obviously a phenomenal level of theft of
meshes and IPAS programs, sad but true.
Anyway, the next time I make it to your part of the world, I'd like to get in
touch with you and maybe get together for dinner or something.
Take Care, PAul
>Anyway, the next time I make it to your part of the world, I'd like to get in
>touch with you and maybe get together for dinner or something.
Just send me a message about your arrival. I am sure that we can drink some
biers (if you drink bier) and talk a bit.
PavelK
>> Actually, I got several really … lets's say "dirty" messages (by
>> e-mail, not here in ASOFT forum)
That's one of those "Freedoms" here in America… Free Speech. Unfortunately,
many people don't use their heads to speak intelligently, or they allow emotion
to get in the way of a good debate. Don't let a few bad words get you down or
diminish your creative goals.
>> one "gentleman" tried to suggest that it will be better for me
>> "switch-off the modem and never return"
Please don't. The sense of "community" here comes from the varied opinions
that people share from all around the world…
When you say a "pirated copy" of my company's CD, are you talking about a
pirate CD, or files copied to floppy? There was a dealer in Germany who went to
great lengths to tell everyone via their newsletter that the 3D-ROM didn't have
any good models on it, then in the next paragraph they said they were offering
the models on floppy for a slightly lower price.
>When you say a "pirated copy" of my company's CD, are you talking about a
>pirate CD, or files copied to floppy? There was a dealer in Germany who went
The CD, prepared on CD-ROM recorder. Price was around $50.
PavelK
what did you do?
Oh, I jumped on the next plane to Germany equipped with a gun and lawyer. But
seriously folks… What could I do? I sent a few faxes to see if it was true,
asked them to stop, and informed Autodesk Germany. I have no idea if they
actually stopped. I've drawn my mental and emotional "line in the sand" a bit
farther out than your average mesh-making company. Since we didn't make these
meshes, and we want to circulate them with as few restrictions as possible,
I'll protect the collection (as in the US sense of "collection copyright," like
a publisher of a book of poems who doesn't claim the rights to the poems, but
to the way they organized their collection.)
I've thought about hiring East European and Russian programmers. A week ago, I
had a chance to talk with a successful Russian software developer. He said
it's very tough to do business over there. He said he wouldn't havev tried it
unless he spoke Russian, and even then, it was very difficult.
Although it may be very "cheap," I worry about the logistics. Sure, I could
send someone a check or a system or a compiler. Do I know what I'm getting in
return? What if I can no longer contact this person by phone, what do I do?
Is my investment lost? And given the common attitudes about piracy and
protection of source code, I'd worry that the code I paid for would appear on
an international ftp site. I worry plenty about code security when it's on a
computer right here in my office… I'd go crazy with my code spread around
the world. Entirely insecure.
And recently I had a programmer from Holland approach me about work… they
wanted roughly the same pay as someone might get here in the States. I'm sure
the situation of underpaid but qualified East European programmers won't last
long. (I know, Holland isn't East Europe.)
>send someone a check or a system or a compiler. Do I know what I'm getting in
I think that you should to be extremely carefull. In my opinion, the programmer
should show some work before he want check or compiler.
>return? What if I can no longer contact this person by phone, what do I do?
>Is my investment lost? And given the common attitudes about piracy and If the
programmer will not answer you, you cannot do anything. But I think that the
good programmer (and especially the programmer from east europe) want to make
money by writing code. So there is no profit for him, if he will not cooperate
with you. As far as I know, 99% of peoples around computers here in Czech are
normal, fair peoples.
>an international ftp site. I worry plenty about code security when it's on a
>computer right here in my office… In your office ??? You want to say that
the situation is US is so bad that someone is able to steal your source from
your machine ? Thanks god that I'm living in Czech. Maybe we have software
piracy here, but I need not affraid about my sources in the office.
>wanted roughly the same pay as someone might get here in the States. I'm sure
>the situation of underpaid but qualified East European programmers won't last
>long. (I know, Holland isn't East Europe.) Yes, I think that in one or two
years, the situation will be like in the rest of Europe. BTW, what is the
average salary of a good programmer in US ?
PavelK
I meant that I do worry that someone who works for me might decide that it's OK
to take a copy of the source code home, or to their next job… I've seen it
done, I know it happens. When the programmer is in the next continent as
opposed to the next room, how am I to know if they haven't given out a copy of
the code, or if someone else can gain access to their computer and take the
code when they're backing up the hard disk in order to pirate other software?
>I meant that I do worry that someone who works for me might decide that it's
>OK to take a copy of the source code home, or to their next job… I've seen
>it done, I know it happens. When the programmer is in the next continent as
>opposed to the next room, how am I to know if they haven't given out a copy of
>the code, or if someone else can gain access to their computer and take the
>code when they're backing up the hard disk in order to pirate other software?
Interesting, I never heard about this kind of piracy here in Czech. It seems
that the whole piracy problem here is oriented on already released commercial
software. We have no problems with piracy of source codes. This is something
really new for me. Here in Czech, I can tell to other programmer "I am working
on very interesting thing ….". Maybe he ask me, if I will give him one copy
free of charge, as soon as my work will be finished, but he will never try to
steal my source. I am really shocked and I am starting to understand your fear
of piracy.
PavelK
II'm not talking about programmers who visit my office… I'm talking about
employees. A large software company in Silicon Valley might have fairly rapid
turn-over of programmers, or at least a number of contractors or consultants
who typically work long hours. The site might have a large network. Software
companies go to great lengths to protect their code!
>II'm not talking about programmers who visit my office… I'm talking about
>employees. A large software company in Silicon Valley might have fairly rapid
>turn-over of programmers, or at least a number of contractors or consultants
>who typically work long hours. The site might have a large network. Software
>companies go to great lengths to protect their code! Yes, I understand you,
but as I said, we have no such problems. Neither with employees, nor with
consultants etc. Stealing the source which belong to someone other is so
"unfair" for computer peoples here, that nobody will do it. It is something
hard-coded in the mind of computer peoples here. I know that it is hard to
believe.
PavelK
Yes, it is hard for me to believe that someone who thinks it unfair to take a
copy of source code, would turn around and think it's OK to take software
that's too expensive or simply easy to steal. Are you saying that if I simply
attach a bit of source code to my software, or to my disc of meshes, it will
stop Czechs from stealing it? Wonderful! Thanks for the tip.
>attach a bit of source code to my software, or to my disc of meshes, it will
>stop Czechs from stealing it? Wonderful! Thanks for the tip.
No, but I am almost sure that nobody will steal your bit of source code. It is
very interesting. When I read your note regarding the piracy of source code, it
was first time when I started to think about the possibility that
somebody can steal my source. I simply took the fact that nobody will steal my
sources as a axiom. But peoples here are thinking the same way as me. Maybe
this is the remainder of old times (5 years ago) when peoples around computers
here in Czech tried to help each other. It's hard to explain to someone who was
not here in 1980 – 1989. In these years, there was almost no informations, no
literature etc. In this situation peoples tried to help each other with
hardware, software etc. Everything free of charge of course. The result was,
that almost all computer peoples was friends. Maybe a little example will help.
I started with computers in 1980. In 1982, I got several chips (used) from my
friend. I got Z-80, several EPROMs, several RAMs etc. I exchanged two of these
EPROMs for old 8'' FD drive with one friend. From other friend, I got the
design for the FD controller. I build the basic Z-80 computer with FD
controller. I gave my design to another friend and he adapted this small system
for 64K of memory. In the same time, my colleague from school got the SINCLAIR
computer and wrote assembler/monitor for him. I lent his SINCLAIR and I used
his ASM for writing my own CP/M for my machine (yes, write. I had only the
description of CP/M services). Lately, he gave me the source code for his ASM
and I adapted his program for my CP/M.
.. continue
.. When my CP/M machine was finished, several peoples asked me about the
diagram for my computer, about system etc. So I gave them the whole
documentation and they gave me several applications. Etc. etc. etc.
99% of computer peoples here was in the same situation as I was. And I am sure,
that a bit of these old times is in the mind of these peoples here. So I'm not
affraid that somebody will try to steal my sources. Not yet.
Excuse-me my long example, but as I wrote, it is hard to understand something,
when you don't know the background.
PavelK