#Timesaver it ain't
32 messages in this thread
For the command history and macro keys of timesaver all I can say is that
conman and setkey will do a by far better job and they are for free.
With timesaver you loose all your cursor preference settings and even the auto
repeat function of the keyboard.
Setkey or Zink! keys allows you to have different macros on different
programs, a very important feature on a multitasking system like the Amiga. As
far as editing in the macro key for Timesaver is non existent.
Remember, Timesaver does not come with any disk software to interact with
the Amiga and the only thing it sees is the keyboard so it will never know
of any program events (ex. that you clicked on a gadget or change applications
etc.)
For conclusion I'd like to say this. My timesaver (which is not much of a
timesaver) is for sale. Please leave me email and I will mail it to you COD.
Other than that, save your self the trouble and either get any of the other
clocks (if a clock is what you need) or get your hands to the above mentioned
programs. Zink keys, which is a commercial product, will really excite you if
macros is what you want. My dealer had them for $39 (well worth the money).
Cltd on the other hand has been consistent with the Tramiel theory of false
advertising (remember their pass-through ram card), and products that are both
un-reliable and very poorly designed. My recommendation is test drive before
you buy and remember that $50 more today, may save you $100 down the road.
Bill,
I too have a TimeSaver, and while I agree with much of what you say, I feel
it only fair to point out a small inaccuracy. The coonector on the OUT port of
the TimeSaver is exactly the same at that on the IN port, as well as that on
the keyboard and the keyboard connector on the Amiga itself. Thus, it can
hardly be called nonstandard.
I did not test TimeSaver as extensively as you appear to have, but did find
that it got in the way more than was worth any benefits. I too dislike the
usurping of the HELP key, and also dislike multiple keystrokes for macros,
which have the effect of putting me into different "modes". This has led to
some screaming at the thing when I forgot that I had used the HELP key for
someting, then got some VERY interesting results when I tried to do other
things.
The net of it all is that I disabled it, and then disconnected it the next
time I had the A1000 out of its cubbyhole.
Have you tried the Funckeys program by Anson Mah? It is one of the best, and
is shareware. It can be found in DL 9.
Regards, Larry.
Larry,
Humm….unless I mis-read Bill's comments, his problem wasn't that the
connector itself was non-standard, but that the wire attached to it was not a
standard telco wire, and replacing with a std-telco wire fried T/S.
However, I also seem to remember that the keyboard cable also isn't a
std telco cable (wall to phone cable) but is a handset cable. My memory of the
difference between the 2 types of telco modular cables is that on the wall to
phone cable they are arranged like this:
end 1 end2
pin1………………….pin4
pin2………………….pin3
pin3………………….pin2
pin4………………….pin1
Whereas a handset cable goes like this:
end1 end2
pin1…………………..pin1
pin2…………………..pin2
pin3…………………..pin3
pin4…………………..pin4
That could certainly make a difference.
Don
Don,
I guess we will have to wait to see what Bill meant. I just checked the
TiemSaver cable, and undeed the pins are connected as you mentioned. I can't
see how one could hook up a "wall type", as they are completely different
sizes.
Regards, Larry.
Larry,
True, I forgot about that…a handset cable will fit (not work thou
usualy) a wall socket but not the other way around.
Don
Larry,
Don has it right on the money. The cable I bought from Radio Shack was a
standard modular handset cord. The non standard issue, is that the cable!
from Timesaver is wired 180 degrees out of phase to the connectors and since
power and ground pins are at 1 and 4, these are reversed with a standard
modular handset cord. The reason why I called it an engineering error is
because, they could have wired these signals correctly on the pcb so you
could never make the mistake.
Thanks a lot for Funckeys. I'll make sure and get it.
Regards, Bill.
For some funny reason, I don't seem to have a help key problem. After all,
when I use the help key it's usually by itself, and unfortunately, in most Amy
software I've used all it dis display the author's name. I find it vuseful.
Ron,
My main problems stem from the fact that there are different "modes" that you
can be placed in, and if you are in the wrong mode when trying to do something
that requires the other mode, it can be frustrating or catastrphic, depending
on the operation. I don't have anything against TimeSaver except that it does
not fit with my way of doing things. It has caused me a few problems that I am
not willing to chance again. If it works for you, great.
Regards, Larry.
I guess you don't use uEdit — TimeSaver gets in the way all the time. Luckily,
since the command structure of uEdit is programmable, I can get around the
problem. The biggest problem with TimeSaver that I see is that I don't need a
clock (I've got an Atime, a TIC, a clock on the Insider, and a clock on the
Supra HD) and the macros, being multi-keystroke, are not nearly as nice to use
(or remember) as something like Mah's Funckeys. For command line history, I use
Dillon/Drew's C shell — much superior to the capability of the TimeSaver.
Steve, how do coordinate all those clocks? Do you own a clock store (and are
therefore very good at all this)? I'm just pleased to have good time stamps on
my files and a reasonably accurate clock on the system, with the bonus of a
simple, easy to use, line editor. I don't have to run any extra software, and
except for using it I can forget that the little box is there. I have both of
my 'mouse' ports, my par port is unimpaired, etc.
Ron
I don't use the clocks (other than the one on the Insider). I run the 'extra'
software because it makes the Amiga must more powerful and friendly to use than
what is shipped with the machine.
Bill,
Having read your recent discourse on TimeSaver and being a happy user of
same, I feel I must respond. I will try to cover one by one the points you
brought up.
1. "TimeSaver is packaged in a cheap plastic case".
I take it you would prefer an 'expensive' plastic case. The
'cheap one' (your words) covers the electronics, insulates the
device, and provides a mounting surface. I personally can't see
having an costlier case merely to then mount it out of sight under
the Amiga. Mine fit together fine with no problems. I imagine
that if you had called CLtd they would have been happy to send
you another case if you weren't pleased with the one you got.
2. "The manual due to the way is packaged and written is one of the
hardest to read."
CONTINUED…PART 1 OF 7…
I will kinda agree with you about the manual construction but not
about the way it is written. I read it though once, later double-
checked a couple of questions and have not had to refer to it
again. I found it consise and to the point. It told me what I needed
to know. I also have Genlock and had no problem with cable length.
I didn't need the double-stick tape as my case was a press fit
into the slot. It stays put, yet removes easily.
3. "Due to a fatal Cltd ENGINEERING ERROR you can only use this SHORT!!
custom NON!! standard keyboard cable at the OUT port."
Not sure what you mean by this, as it is a "STANDARD" telephone
handset modular cable. To double check I just hooked up a Radio
Shack cable I had to my TimeSaver. Nothing fried. Everything still
worked OK. Fail to see how this constitues a "fatal Cltd ENGINEERING
ERROR." They do warn you about hooking it up wrong. That's all
that I expect.
CONTINUED…PART 2 OF 7…
4. "I remember reading at the release info that Cltd left here, that
you would be able to interact with the Amiga (Like save macros on
disk and then re-load them. What is this?? False Advertising??)"
I too was disappointed about not being able save and load macros
from disk. However, I never saw that in CLtd. "ADVERTISING". I do
remember Ed Lippert talking about that when he first started
talking about the idea. I think that was back in Jan. or Feb. I
don't think should hold a company to ideas that are merely being
talked about. A lot of things can happen during the design process.
I did, however, call CLtd and talk to Ed about this, among other
things. He said that they had run out of room in the ROM, but
they hope to have it in a later version. He also has some other
interesting ideas for the new version, however I won't accuse
him of false advertising it they don't work out.
5. "Cltd can find themselves in trouble because A-Time which not only
takes NO! ports,"
CONTINUED…PART 3 OF 7…
Having used ATime for nine months (and selling it immediately
after buying TimeSaver) I have to disagree about ATime never
blocking the parallel port. It does it every time you boot.
When you boot up ATime redirects parallel output from the port
to the ATime. It stays this way until either the READ-RTC or
the SET-RTC program is run. After one of these is run, ATime
is disabled and output is directed to the port thru ATime. Thus,
if you boot up with a copy-protected disk that you cannot add
READ-RTC and modify the Startup-Sequence to call it, then all
parallel I/O goes to ATime and not out to the printer. All of
this going to ATime means that the date and time in ATime usually
get scrambled by the data meant for the printer. Consequently if
you use copy-protected software that also uses the printer, you
WILL have problems with ATime.
6. "They even suggest to software developers NOT! to use the help key
cause it could mess up their software.
CONTINUED…PART 4 OF 7….
They DO NOT say this. They do suggest not to use the HELP key + 0
key combination (as it activates TimeSaver), and further suggest
not using HELP + ANYTHING. I don't have any programs that use the
HELP key + anything else. Pressing the HELP key alone does nothing.
As to asking other software developers to honor their requirements,
what is wrong with that. In the IBM world not doing this has caused
a lot of problems with TSR (Terminate and Stay Resident)type
software where programs all want to use the same keys for different
functions, or all want to be the last one loaded. (Kinda like Amiga
expansion devices that all have no pass-thru and want to be the last
one on the bus.)
CONTINUED…PART 5 OF 10
7. "Time accuracy does not even exist. You may get it now or 60 sec
from now, and all still depends on how fast you put your disk in.
From my point of view this statement is misleading. It really
depends on what you want to do. I'm not looking for split-
second accuracy. I merely want to always have the correct time
and date on my system without having to modify the boot disk as
is necessary for all other clock systems I am aware of for the
Amiga. By correct, for me, I mean +/- 2-3 minutes. I want the
time/date stamp on my files to be correct, RELATIVE TO EACH
OTHER. I really don't care if the overall time is 1 minute off.
All my files will be time/date stamped correctly in relation to
each other. If you must have the correct to the second and are
able to modify all your boot disk, then there is is a program
in DL11 that will allow you to set your system time to within
+/- 0.5 second.
CONTINUED… PART 6 OF 10….
Despite the data from the books, I find that realtime clocks
vary widely from device to device. My ATime gained about 6 minutes
a month. A client's lost about 3 minutes a month. Another gained
about 10 SECONDS a month. My TimeSaver gains about 1 minute a month.
I don't find this a problem. Others might, I guess. These clock
can vary widely depending on the difference in temperature where
they were calibrated and your house temperature, variations in
components and care in design. Some units have adjustments, others
don't. My ATime had no calibration adjustments. A friend's ATime
did.
8. "I don't want to go too much into this but the auto-date can also
cause a lot of problems with auto-boot commercial programs."
CONTINUED…PART 7 OF 10….
I'm not sure the "lot of problems" are. The only reason the
TimeSaver won't function in this situation is if the boot disk
does not have the "date" or the "execute" command in the "c"
directory. If this happens the boot process stops right after
the "Release 1.2" message and you are left at the CLI. Merely
press HELP + Right Shift + 0. TimeSaver goes to sleep. Then
C-A-A and reboot. If later in the program you want to use the
Macros, press HELP + 0 and TimeSaver wakes up, ready to go.
I might point out that at this point ATime, Insider, MouseClock,
etc. will not be able to set the clock either.
CONTINUED…PART 8 OF 10….
9. "For the command history and macro keys of timesaver all I can say
is that conman and setkey will do a by far better job and they are
for free."
I notice you have a StarBoard 2 2Meg board, as I have. Most people
don't. All of these (Conman, Setkey, ZingKeys!,etc) take up a lot of
memory that many people don't have to spare. TimeSaver takes up no
system memory. Plus ZingKeys!,Conman, SetKey, etc will not be able to
function at all if multitasking is restricted, as some programs do.
TimeSaver's macros will still function.
10. "With timesaver you loose all your cursor preference settings and
even the auto repeat function of the keyboard."
CONTINUED…PART 9 OF 10….
I do not find this to be true. The manual explains this very well.
You only lose auto-repeat during the few seconds when you are
recording a macro or editing a CLI history. Your statement seems
to imply that you that this happens at all times with TimeSaver.
This is not true. TimeSaver is completely transparent until you
press the HELP key + something else. I have never done this
accidently. Only when I wanted to.
I wrote this to present an alternate view to Bill's on TimeSaver. I am
in no way connected with CLtd, merely a very satified customer over the
years.
CONCLUSION…PART 10 OF 10
Greg,
First of all I would like to tell you that this PART 1 OF 36 (just kidding).
Max lines per message are something like 36 or so, so don't waste members money
on headers. I'll try to sum up in two messages.
1) Cheap case is a case with no screws (you must like the smell of melted
plastic), that has no secure way to hold top and bottom together (2 screws = 5
cents).
2) Manual. I read through it also (when it would stay open) and the index does
not correspond to contents or just refers to one section when information is
scattered all over the place. If you call this well written I wouldn't want you
as a technical writer.
3) It always amazes me that everyone likes to play Mr Wizard. Well here it is.
WARNING: this will most definitely be FATAL to your keyboard, so try at your
own risk. Plug a STANDARD telephone handset modular cable between keyboard and
Amiga. Do the same with the Tsaver cable (the one that came with the unit).
Watch the smoke.
4) False Advertising. Yes! that's what is called and Ed has done it before. I
am happy that you agree with me in the interaction with the Amiga. Let me put
it this way. It may take a year and $50 in upgrade fees before you get a clock
with macros. Well you can have it today for 1/4 the price with n times the
performance. Check out Funckeys in DL9 to see how is done. And please do send
in the $5 if you use it.
5) a. I am sorry to break this news to you, but ATime will never and I mean
NEVER block any output to the printer. Even when its on the bus.
Engineering wise there is a simple explanation but then again I am trying to
keep this to 36 lines. I make it my hobby to see how something that I own
works. I am an EE student.
b. As far as editing your startup-sequence. Two programs for TSaver in the
DLs prove that you are wrong.
c. If a program (copy protected or not) wants to use the printer, you better
be able to copy your printer driver to it. Which means that all programs that
print, could also be copied to.
6) Amiga is not IBM (we multitask here). If they had some kind of software
solution to go with their hardware you wouldn't have such a problem. Ever heard
of commodities exchange? There will be NO SUCH THING for the Amiga as don't use
this or don't use that.
7) Thank you for saying that you can easily be satisfied. I for one, want my
clock both accurate and dependable.
8) You quoted more than 20 complicated keystrokes. That doesn't sound like much
timesaver to me. And you still end up with the wrong date. (Wrong=not accurate)
9) Computers are here to make are life easier. These programs will take no more
than 10k, are for free and n times better (and my dad can beat yours 🙂 If
multitasking is restricted you better believe it, you won't be able to type.
10)You must not do much editing for your macros. With no external storage for
macros, for different programs, I did!! Backspace?? who heard of that, right?
Sorry, but no, thanks!! I just hope I find someone to sell my T/S to. I wish
you the best of luck with yours. For now, I'm back to the real world.
Regards, Bill. <On with the good stuff>
Bill,
First of all the ForumHelp file says that messages can be 96 lines or
approximately 2000 characters, which ever comes first. Since I was uploading
these as files I broke them apart as clean as possible at natural gaps without
breaking up the sentences.
1) As I said the "cheap case" doesn't bother me. Mine stays together fine. Why
should I want them to spend more money on a case that works fine for me and is
never seen. If you were unhappy with yours, did you talk to CLtd?
2) I did not use the term "well-written". I said it was "concise and to the
point" and that I had no trouble understanding it. I am sorry if you did. I
have spent the last 10 years deciphering DEC manuals. This was a piece of cake.
3) I play Mr Wizard all the time. but first I ohmed out the cable. As I said in
my message, while I was composing the first message, that I powered down and
substituted an Radio Shack cable that I had around. No problems. Maybe this was
a problem and CLtd corrected it. I can only say that it is not true for my
unit.
4) I don't believe I agreed with you about the interaction with the Amiga. I
was disappointed, you seemed mad. Look at it this way, I paid $60 for ATime and
$80 for TimeSaver. I got a clock that keeps the time/date stamp on my files
correct and requires no mods to the boot disk. I got macros that work with
every program I have tried and that consume no system memory. If you are using
a commercial program that self-boots and restricts multitasking, then none of
your macro or hotkey programs will work. Plus, if I sent in all of the
shareware fees that the programmers wanted, I would probably be close to the
price of TimeSaver. Not that I have anything against shareware. I have used
(and paid for) many of them.
CONTINUED FROM #76963
5) All I can say about ATime is how it acted for me. From what I have read
about ATime is that at bootup ATime is activated and waits to be interrogated
by either READ-RTC or SET-RTC. If neither of these is used (as in booting with
Deluxe Paint) then ATime stays active, waiting to be read or written to. The
first time I would print a picture with DP then ATime would get the picture
data and usually reset its time with garbage. At this time ATime would drop off
the line and data would continue to the printer. However since ATime seems to
have intercepted the first data then the printer did not get the setup data and
instead of a picture I would get garbage. If I aborted the picture and tried
again, then all was OK as ATime was offline. This did not happen if ATime was
disconnected. I had a early ATime and maybe this was corrected in later
versions. I do know they had several versions, i.e. time calibration, no time
calibration, usable with Genlock, not usable with Genlock. All I can tell you
is how mine acted and why I did not like it. I also like things I buy to work
and I find TimeSaver works where ATime doesn't. That is what I bought it for.
Since we are apparently comparing credentials, I am a Consulting Engineer
(Hardware and Software) for a NASA contractor here at Johnson Space Center in
Houston. Presently we are using several Amigas to develop a computerized
interactive exercise facility for the Space Station.
Greg,
Since I don't know you, it means nothing to me that you are a consulting
engineer. I've seen plenty with Phds at hand that didn't know from color code
to designing a digital/analog circuit without the Master Circuits Book. I still
want you to try the T/S cable with your keyboard cause I know that this has not
been corrected. But again upgrade to upgrade to upgrade. Ask all those people
that bought the original Cltd Hard drive. They are still having problems even
after 4 upgrades (and every single one costed $).
Why ASDG, Xebec, Microbotics, Michigan Software don't have that problem. You
really can get it right the first time. Cltd attitude has been 'is not our
problem is theirs' and then slowly there after upgrades start appearing. Cltd
ram card: "Amiga pals". T/S manual Page 30 "When you press the Help+cursor-up
keys the first few times what happens is neccessary because of the SEVERE
LIMITATIONS OF THE CLI ENVIROMENT" GIVE ME A BREAK!!
As for ATime, I remember when it came out it was $40 and you can still get it
at that price directly from the company today. Shareware was for $5 but there
are PD programs that do the job much better than T/S for $0. Keylock (password
protection), Conman (thats what command history should be), Setkey (macros on
any key even for different applications), Funckey (for $5, macros you won't
believe, and you can still try before you pay unlike my T/S). But none of
these (ATime, keylock, conman, etc.) is the issue (The most used peripheral is
memory, and with insider you even get a clock for free).
As I told you before I am biased towards reliable, technically advanced and
price conscious hardware and software for my Amiga. TimeSaver is not one of
those. And after seeing and hearing what products Cltd can produce I'll be very
reluctant on any future purchases from them. That of course can change. Its up
to them.
Regards, Bill. <nuf said>
I'm on C Ltd HD #3 — still waiting for a _working_ #4 (I've called C Ltd 6
times in the last 2 weeks asking for Ed Lippert — in all cases I was told he
was busy and would return my call shortly — to date he hasn't). The drive is
so bad (as were the first 2) that I backup the HD nitely, and, for the last 3
weeks, have had to do a full low level (scsi) format every 3 days. I run the
drive with the top off and a fan blowing directly on the mechanism and it still
overheats and dies (to the point of having to reformat because of checksum
errors).
In my previous reply I forgot one thing – yes, I was a bit pissed that my C-Ltd
board didn't come with the pass thru in place, and that it cost me $20 more.
I'll survive, and my 1 meg board has been very well behaved. Also, Ed Lippert's
cooperation with Simile nearly 18 months ago helped Simile create Transformer
1.2, which CBM has had finished since about 11/86 and in beta 4 (wb 1.2 beta 4)
since 6/86. Finally, I don't really care what the case looks like – I haven't
seen it since I hooked it up.
I'm not looking looking for a miracle in perfect accurate time, or the perfect
line editor – I simply needed a simple, easy to use clock and an equally easy
to use line editor. I've got both. I had no trouble hooking it up, and I
found the manual no worse then most computer manuals I've used (they tend to be
uniformly fair to poor). If you need a more sophisticated item, then get it,
but don't knock this for doing what I think most of us wanted it to do with a
minimum of hassle.
Ron Troy
Ron,
I know people, that paid for what others got for free. For some strange
reason these people made their decision to purchase from other members that
heard good things from CIS and various bbs sources and had no access to these
services. Ed knows which people to please the most first, so he can get a good
plug here. There is no reason to say that it isn't so. A good thing in
the inside and all bad in the outside, smells fishy to me. My views are just
that. MY!! views and I always point that in my messages.
Regards, Bill. <nuf said>