#new amigas
89 messages in this thread
Has anyone heard anything concrete about the NEW AMIGA computers with the
AA chip set ??????
I wish that someone could give me the REAL story about these machines.
I have a 500, 1 meg Agnus, and a Supra 52 meg 500 XP.. I feel its time to
move up, YEA I EVEN HAVE THE CASH ON HAND !!!!
Well all I hear is that the new computers, with the new AA graphics chips,
are going to make the 500 and 2000 obsolete !!!!!!!!
========
======== I was going to go with the NEW
GVP A530 68030/40 for the 500, or get a 2000 with the G-FORCE 68030/25.
WELL NOW I'M WORRIED ABOUT BUYING A MACHINE THAT MAY BE OUTDATED 2 OR 3
MONTHS AFTER OPENING THE BOX.
I guess my question is this-is this going to make all our computers old pot
planters ?? Will they be upgradable to the new formats ?? should I wait and
see ??
DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THE "2000 ACTION REPLAY" WILL WORK WITH AN ACCELERATOR
CARD ? The Action replay now uses the processor slot, but I can't find out
if the company will try and use a different slot on the new cards…
WOW WHAT A BUNCH OF QUESTIONS, WELL ITS A LOT OF MONEY TOO…… YES THE
AMIGA IS OVERPRICED BUT AS LONG AS ITS SUPPORTED BUY GOOD COMPANIES AND
GREAT USERS I'LL KEEP BUYING !!
thanks for any advice or comments jerry
The Amiga is overpriced? $299 is overpriced? 😉
Jerry,
Even if new Amigas are released, the current machines will be supported
for years. There are 3.5 million machines out there; if new machines come
<continued>
WELL THATS THE REAL QUESTION RIGHT NOW… AND FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND
KNOW ONE WILL SAY A THING AS TO ANY INFORMATION ABOUT THE NEW COMPUTERS
I THINK, FROM WHAT I HEAR … ONLY THE DEVELOPERS ARE IN ON THE DETAILS
SO THAT THEY CAN KEEP THIER PROGRAMS UP TO DATE.. AND OF COURSE MAKE NEW
PROGRAMS…….
I DARE …. I DOUBLE DARE … ANYONE WHO HAS DETAILS
RUMORS OR A FANTASY OF WHAT IT COULD BE…24 BIT GRAPHIC…16BIT SOUND
OHHH WELL IF WE ARE DREAMING WHY NOT 64 BIT BUSS AND RISC CHIP SETS AS
SOME KIND OF SUPPORT TO THE MAIN CPU…OR RISC CPU??…..
BUT TO GET BACK TO REALITY .. JERRY I REALLY THINK TO SUPPORT
COMMODORES INTREST IN SELLING COMPUTERS, NO INFORMATION WILL BE COMING OUR
WAY FOR A WHILE….. BUT FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE IN BUSINESS THIS IS THIER
FUTURE AND THEY NEED TO KNOW WHAT WILL HELP OR HURT THIER BUSINESS!
BUT ONE GOOD THING ABOUT THIS ALL 2000'S 3000'S 500'S WILL DROP IN
PRICE AND NO MATTER WHAT THE NEW COMPUTER CAN DO ..WE STILL HAVE A
COMPUTER THAT CAN DO SOME PRETTY FANTASTIC THINGS ….
EVERY DAY I SEE NEW PROGRAMS AVAILABLE FOR THE AMIGA IN PUBLIC DOMAIN
THAT BLOWS MY MIND AND IT JUST KEEPS GETTING BETTER AND BETTER…
SO IN CLOSE I SAY …."HANG IN THIER JERRY AS WE SPEAK PRICES FOR USED
2000'S ARE DROPPING SO FAST YOU NEED A NET TO CATCH THEM…
I BEG ANYONE FOR A LITTLE INPUT ON THIS SUBJECT TO LEAVE A MESSAGE!
VIA -NOTHING – SITTING IN FRONT OF A COMPUTER TYPING!
You are absolutely correct that, if develoeprs do know anything, then they
aren't going to tell … after all, they are under confidentiality
agreements with Commodore and could suffer stiff penalties (certainly under
UK law) for breaches of that confidentiality.
It would also not do Commodore any good to go discussing what _might_
happen in the future … because it's just that … a `might happen'.
There have been several stories about new machines … in the UK, one
magazine has published what it believes the spec of the new machines will
be … and, on Usenet (and repeated in AMreport 2.06 [which isn't on
Compuserve]) there is an apparent leak about the full spec of these
machines.
The problem is that these leaks actually do more harm than good. Aspects
of them are speculative, and Commodore will not release hard facts (even to
developers) until much nearer the launch date although they will normally
make provisional details (and OS software) available to ensure upward
compatibility … therefore, rumour may indicate a machine that does not
and will not exist.
Look, for instance, at the concern already expressed that the existing
machines will be obsolete. That is as a direct result of the rumour and
inuendo … and is very very unlikely.
Mike (from the UK)
Mike,
This is somewhat of an active debate on Genie right now. And having read
both sides arguments, I would like to, just as a devil's advocate, speak
the other side of the argument. And that is: By not releasing ANY
information to the general public they are hurting sales. Now, I know that
if they were to say well sometime in the future, we'll have a new chipset,
then that would most likely hurt current sales. (and I have heard of
Osborne) But don't you think that by remaining absolutely quiet, not
mentioning either a specific product that they are working on or a time
frame for some general product, such as new graphic capability that they
lead to the impression that nothing is in the works. I certainly have had
that suspiscion(sp?) seeing how hardly anything has changed in Amiga
technology since it's introduction?(Especially when compared to the DOS and
Mac world?) With the exception of the OS.
And since the graphic chipset(and any other chipset) will be most likely
compatible with 500/2000/3000 then why should it hurt sales to announce a
compatible chipset(not necessarily any new computers)? In fact I think that
a definite announcement of any enhancement to the existing computers by
Commodore would actually help what little sales they currently make.
However, if this isn't the case and the chipset will not be able to be
used in the current line of Amiga's BUT the newer computers will be
compatible with current software then I'm buying a clone and definitely not
another Amiga.(Having just shelled out two grand for my 3000) After all,
you can have VGA and soundblaster cards in your XT. Not that it'd be
particularly enjoyable mind you, but I've wandered.
So, in some ways, I believe that an announcement of some type of
enhancement to the current line of Amiga's wouyld only help, and not hurt.
Alan
An annoucement of this kind *was* made at the NYX World Of Amiga show last
year. One of CBM's execs got up and told the crowd that a new chip set was
being worked on and that new machines were planned, and that they were not
all that far away. Probably the text of the speech is available somewhere
online, here or another network. As I remember it, there were some
tantalizing specifics in the speech, but what was said and what I know
from other sources (as a developer) may be somewhat mixed up in my head,
so I won't say anything; just find the speech and go from there.
–Ben /\ ~|~ _ |~| o | _ ~|~
via… /~~\ |_| | |_| |~ | | |_| |
Ben,
I'll definitely go look for it. All I've ever heard was rumors.
Alan
Just a cautionary tale for you folks who are worried that "Amiga — The
Next Generation" will be non-downward compatible:
I also own a MS-DOS machine. Talk about lack of downward compatibility! Get
this:
1. I bought a closeout of a "Game Blaster" sound card put out Creative
Labs, which now markets Sound Blasters. The Game Blaster is not compatible,
the company tells me. They discontinued it and don't support it with new
software. You can get old software that does work with it, but that's all.
Any upgrade path? Nope. And the sound card wars are continuing as we speak.
You might shell out a few hundred bucks for a card whose maker will be
going belly up any day now.
2. The 386 processor doesn't handle some 8088/8086 software well. The 486
has more serious problems. The 586 chip apparently won't handle MS-DOS at
all. But you'll need a 486 or 586 to do anything approaching multimedia or
video on an IBM clone.
3. Yeah, there's such a thing as Super VGA and XGA, but try finding your
particular software's drivers for those higher graphics standards. Standard
VGA is pretty much it. Heck, you can run EGA and not lose much in the
translation. EGA is, what, eight years old now.
I'm not out to knock IBM clones, as I use them and they have their places.
I'm just saying that I expect the new Amigas to be more compatible with my
current Amiga than the new IBM clones will be with current IBM clones. So
if you go out and in disgust buy a 386 or 486 box right now, don't say I
didn't warn you. >>>> Ron Legro / Milwaukee via WHAP!
"Wherever you go, there you are!"
Let me give you my perspective which comes from working in an Amiga
dealership.
It is my opinion that Commodore is doing the right thing in not releasing
pre-release details of any new technologies that they may have in the
works. Including custom chips and new computers. Why? Because we
purchase our computers from Commodore to resell to you our customer. The
last thing in the world we need is to have people come in and say "Golly, I
heard about those new Amigas. Are they here yet?" I say "No, that may not
be here for another month or so." They say "Call me when the new boxes
come out…after all I don't want to be left in the cold!".
So my stock gathers dust and is not sold. Commodore's warehouse is then
full of Amiga computers, and they have to declare a loss. Remember that
Commodore US buys their machines from Commodore International. Commodore
US wants to keep as low an inventory as possible. Announcing new product;
especially when they are not ready only hurts sales and ruins Commodore's
reputation. Just look at Atari if you want living proof of how not to run
a computer company; and trust me they announce things quite often.
Consider the A570 and the lost CDTV sales because of delays in getting that
unit released. The A570 is a product that has been shown a million times,
never once a production date published and look.. CDTV sales are flat
because people are 'waiting' for the A570. Latest word on that is
September folks. 🙂 In fact, everything may happen in September my birds
tell me. I just wish I knew what "everything was". 🙂
Ut oh… did I just single handedly ruin Amiga sales across the nation? 🙂
-mark=
– whappity whap whap… whap whap!!
Yes, but consider this. Lets say that although I try to keep up with the
latest news but haven't heard anything about the new computers that will be
available. I go into your store and purchase a 3000, and yet you know that
a new model will be out soon that gives more bang for the buck. Then CBM
releases the 3500 or 4000 (just examples folks 8^) a month later for about
the same price that I paid for that suddenly obsolete 3000. Are you going
to let me trade in my 3000 for full value so I can get the new model?
Probably not, and you would have one PO'd customer on your hands. While
holding back the information might help you clear out your inventory, it
might also cause some bad feelings between your dealership and the
customers.
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
JOHN GAGER & OTHERS
First let me say that I am not a dealer and other than purchasing a few
thing from them, I do most of my stuff by mail order. With that out of the
way I will continue.
The dealer generaly knows less than you and I do from these forums. His
info comes from C= who doesn't tell them anything unless they are a
developer also. He is always asking me what is comming and I have sat
there with him while he calls C= to ask only to generaly be told that no
such thing exist (were on speaker phone). Two weeks or so later, here it
comes!! So don't just bash the dealer. He knows less than you!
JOHN – The Lost Southerner!!
That reminds me of when I first called my local dealer to inquire about
the CBM High Density floppy drive (after Pat B. mentioned it several
months ago)… My dealer said
"Really?…huh. I just bought a new A3000 Tower…hang on a sec
<two minute pause> Hey, I've got a High Density Floppy Drive in
there! Thanks for telling me!"
He was able to get the part number and place one on order for me, but it
has been backordered since.
Michael
…..on AutoPilot
Michael,
I also had one of the HD drives on order and when C= discontinued them, my
backorder was canceled by C=. You might want to check with your dealer on
the status of that drive. Mine were already paid for and everything.
Lucky, my dealer had sold a few and they got returned. We are good friends
so he asked if I wanted to try them out before he had to return them to C=.
I got most of them to work fine and wound up buying 2 of them anyway. The
problem with most of them wasn't a problem with the drives at all. WB2.04
only recognizes and allows them to be in DF0:. Everyone was putting them
in DF1: which does not support them at all. Lots of format fails and when
you try to read one, block 1789 is beyond the range of the drive. I found
a way around the DF1: problem to a point. Leave the jumper on the
motherboard set to DF0: and install the drive set to DF1:. There are a few
things that cause it to get confused, but most work OK. I called C= Gold
Service last week to ask one of their tech's about the DF1: problem and
that is when they told me that 2.04 doesn't support the drive in that spot
or anyother spot other than DF0:. WB 2.1 is suppose to correct this and
allow it to go in any of the 4 position on the A3000 that it can go. I'd
ship some developer with 2.1 one of my drives to try in df1: If they
promised to ship it back just to test out the C= rummor of wb2.1 supporting
it in DF1: and let me know the results. Oh well, the C= rep also said that
2.1 would probably (you know what that means!) be released in 3 to 6 weeks
in both software and rom. Prices are being worked out and might be free to
those still under gold service. By the way, is there a way to extend the
service for a $$$$???
See ya and get AUTOPILOT on here for the rest of us to enjoy. I think If I
were you and Ben, I'd let it say WHAP till it was released to the rest of
us. Wish an easier way would come to pay instead of by mail and 2 month
wait!
JOHN – The Lost Southerner!!
John:
Interesting… my daler told me just last Wed. that the drive was still on
back order… I'll have to call him on Monday. The DF0:/DF1: situation
would not present any problem for me, as it would be the ONLY floppy drive
in my system. Want to sell me one of yours?
With regard to CBM authorized extended Gold Service coverage, it is
available through Service Management Group, Inc. and the cost varies
"according to your configuration" and is available for an additional one
or two year term. You can contact SMG at (410) 992-9975 or via fax at
(410) 992-9979. The coverage "is the exact same you received during the
warranty period."
Michael
…..on AutoPilot
Gold Service on a 3000 (I don't know about others) can be extended. You
should get a letter telling you who to contact when your original warranty
is about a month from expiration. Just to give you an idea, since the
letter won't, they told me $290 for a 3000-16/50.
2.1 in 3 to 6 weeks? Someone said three weeks back about the beginning of
June, but now I've heard that there are supposed to be announcements of new
products in September, so I might buy six weeks.
Yes,
The high density floppy is *still* not a product offered by Commodore
though it was shipped in the last batch of A3000 25/50B systems and the
last Tower we ordered.
We also have some on backorder through the parts department. We *knew*
about them, but we can't get them.
-mark=
– whappity whap whap… whap whap!!
"The high density floppy is *still* not a product offered by Commodore"
Mark:
Originally, CBM was not even takoing orders for the HD floppy… then
suddenly they began accepting the orders, and just back-ordering them.
I sure would like to get one for use with my AMAXII+ card and Cross-Dos
5.
Michael
…..on AutoPilot
Well,
That is true in a lot of cases. However, I am a registered developer and
we try very hard to stay on top of what is happening in the Amiga
marketplace.
The items we don't intend to order for a while are Amiga 2000s and Amiga
500s. Did you folks read the latest European Amiga magazines?
-mark=
– whappity whap whap… whap whap!!
Those bad feelings on the customer's part would happen regardless of
whether or not the dealer knew about new systems….they would be directed
at either the dealer or the computer maker itself.
Steve
I suppose that if you buy a '92 model car in Sept you'll expect a "full
value" trade on a '93 in Oct? I don't think so.
-sja
That's not entirely fair, Steve. Cars are assigned specific model years,
and the consumer who purchases a 1992 vehicle in Sept know full well that
a newer model will be released by the factory shortly. And the actual
release of these new models is usually heralded by lots of pre-release
media hype for the new models and "end of model year" clearance sales by
the dealers.
I understand your point, but the analogy is poor.
Michael
…..on AutoPilot
Ok, make it a new pair of "star endorsed" athletic shoes. You buy some Air
Jordan's today and next month you want full value in trade for some Dekembe
Motumbo's.
There ya go… that's better! <g>
Michael
…..on AutoPilot
Yes, but most people know that the new model years for cars starts in
Sep/Oct so many base their purchasing decisions on that knowledge, either
buying a 92 model for a good price, or waiting for a new model. On the
other hand, a computer company can release a new product line at any time
and the customer never knows when. We know from reading the latest news
that CBM will release a new product line soon, but others might not know
that unless they keep up on the news as we do. I still believe that if a
dealer has knowledge of a pending new release of the product line, then he
should inform his customers of that possibility. If the customer still buys
the computer with that knowledge, well at least he was warned.
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
John,
Commodore has, historically, released a new Amiga every year. It may be
nothing more than a repackaging of current technology, but there you can
count on something "new" on a yearly basis — usually on the shelves in by
October. Let's see, the 1000, 500, 2000, 2500, 3000, 3000T — that's 6
computers in the 7 years Amiga's been on the market. This is the 7th year
and a new computer will be announced in September (according to their
response to the San Jose Mercury article). A producer of any product isn't
obligated to pre-announce it's products. All it does is kill current
product sales — and if they don't bring out the new product in the
announced timeframe it can be disastrous — ask Adam Osbourne.
John,
May I ask what your solution is to this problem? The only thing we have
figured out to do is to carry only a few of a particular item that we feel
is close to being discontinued, so that we don't have a large invenotry
when Commodore is announcing things.
Commodore does give us a heads-up, but often times it is right after we
ordered a ton of stuff. 🙂
Remember in order to stay in business we have to sell our inventory. No
company can afford to take back equipment that has been used a month on a
'trade-in' for the amount of money you spent on it. We would not be able
to sell it again as new. So I ask again, what would be your solution to
this problem?
-mark=
– whappity whap whap… whap whap!!
The solution to the problem is for CBM to rebate 25% of the cost of any
dealers existing inventory at the time the new models are released so that
they can reduce the retail of those units. It's called markdown money (as
I'm sure you know) and is quite common in the retail industry. Those funds
should be built in to the pricing structure from day one. Suddenly the
A3000/25/50 that cost the dealer 1,575 yesterday, today only cost 1,180
and the retail drops from $2,250 to around $1,500. Everyone wins.
Or, offer a consumer reabate of $400 (on the above mentioned machine) for
a period of time long enough to clear out inventories for dealers.
Michael
…..on AutoPilot
Well Commodore does offer price protection quite often when they release
new hardware. However, this price protection doesn't do much to move the
existing inventory. If a customer is waiting for Amiga 4000 after hearing
about it months in advance, Commodore can't hardly give away the current
A3000.
The computer business is like no other. Nobody cares when a new model of
refrigerator is coming out. 🙂
-mark=
– whappity whap whap… whap whap!!
Well I'm not sure if there really is a fool proof solution to the problem
Mark, but I still believe that if a customer comes in, and you have
knowledge that a new model will be announced soon, that you should inform
him about it. I have a lot more respect for a dealer who is honest with me
than someone who just wants to make a sale. I might not buy at that time,
but when the new models did come out you could be assured that I would come
back, and probably for more stuff than just the computer. Chances are you
will still get rid of your inventory because a lot of people don't have the
money to buy the latest whiz bang computer, or wants to have the
compatability with all the current software & hardware.
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
You are making the assumption that the new wiz-bang computer cost more than
what is being replaced. Consider the situation with the A500. Right now,
according to the European press, the Amiga 500 is being discontinued. Now,
we have not heard a word from Commodore US stating that this situation is
true for the US.
Given this situation would you recommend to us to tell perspective
customers who may not already be amiga owners that Commodore may bring the
A600 into the United States? Since no one knows the pricing of the A600 in
the United States it may well be near the same price as the current price
of the A500 (which is high!). So your theory that we would still move our
inventory is probably wrong.
If I have immediate knowledge of a new system that is available as a
product I do tell my customers. If it is in the pre-announcement stages as
the current next generations of the machines are in, I don't bother to
complicate the issue. If I were to say to every customer that Commodore is
about to announce something in September I could guarentee that I would not
sell a single unit until after September.
-mark=
– whappity whap whap… whap whap!!
Well I wouldn't blame you for not telling me about the A600 Mark, at least
right now. There have been no rumors of the 600 being sold here in the
states. Even if it is in CBM's plans, it would take quite awhile before it
gets through the FCC paper mill. However, holding back the knowledge that
CBM will introduce the new models of the Amiga in Sept is just plain wrong,
IMHO. But I can see I'm not going to convince you, just as you are not
going to convince me. I guess each dealer has their own priorities, and I
as a customer can shop at or recommend certain Amiga dealers.
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
John,
There is a pretty fool proof solution to that of new machines coming out,
and Apple is probably the biggest adopter of this solution…motherboard
swaps.
When the Mac IIfx came out, both Mac II owners and Mac IIx owners had
the option to trade up. When the Quadras came out, IIcx and IIci owners
again were given the option to trade up.
Its my feeling that the same should be true for Amigas. If the rumors
are true, and the A4000 motherboard is form-factor compatible with that of
the 3000, Commodore should offer a swap program. Additionally, they should
offer a program to buy (or swap) motherboards that will fit the A2000.
There are many good reasons to do this. Many folks find it to be more
tax friendly to upgrade, rather than replace their computers. Let's face
it…if I wanted to take advantage of the new machines, I'd probably have
to sell my machine now…it won't be worth jack by the time the September
announcement comes to pass.
A lot of folks have a large sum tied up in their 2000's and
3000's…this is to be expected as the machine matures. The more
compatible the new machines are with the old, the less folks are likely to
give the old machines up.
If Commodore was going to sell the A4000 for a list of $4000 (I am
speaking strictly from a hypothetical position here), but offer a new
motherboard for my machine for $2000….I would not be able to buy the new
machine (I am assuming getting $1000 for my present, loaded A2000),
although I could probably swing the motherboard alone.
Let's see…just the motherboard…hmm…no hard drives, no floppies, no
keyboard, no mouse, no case, no power supply, much less documentation and
packaging, shorter warranty, less shipping costs, less labor…do you thing
Commodore could end up with a *VERY* healthy margin? Wonder why Apple does
it? Wonder why Apple customers are very loyal?
Jonathan
– via Whap!
I would go along with a motherboard swap Jonathan, however it might be
better if CBM offered something similar for 1000 owners wanting to upgrade
to the 2000, your old 2000 + $2000 would get you a new 4000, or the 3000 +
$1000, etc. That way the users wouldn't have to worry about taking in their
computer for a motherboard swap, and CBM could refurbish and sell the used
computers at a discount.
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
John,
I suppose that could be a good idea…but I would bet that CBM would make
more money with the motherboard swap idea! Additionally, it could provide
their mistreated dealers with some substantial income (for installs, etc).
I know that the dealers hate things like the educational discount and the
trade-in programs, because CBM cuts their margins to nothing.
Jonathan
They have done that with the 1000's — twice so far. I personally would
rather shell out the $$$ for a motherboard swap — assuming that they made
the motherboard fit the same form factor as my 3000. Exchanging it for a
larger box is not acceptable to me — where would I put the box with my
syquest? The 3000 and my external drive case fit winderfully in the
"computer" spot in my computer desk — which was designed to take a
full-size AT case….
Brian
– via Whap!
"However, if this isn't the case and the chipset will not be able to be
used in the current line of Amiga's BUT the newer computers will be
compatible with current software then I'm buying a clone and definitely not
another Amiga."
Whoah, now! I think you shouldn't be so unforgiving of Commodore. I am
almost positive the new chipset won't fit into my A3000, but I am also
confident that the emerging crop of Zorro-III graphics boards will more
than make up for any capabilities in the new chipset. And furthermore, who
would want VGA and soundblaster cards in an XT? VGA is slow enough on a 386
already and on an XT it's inhumane; I also have not seen any of these new
hi-color VGA systems available for an XT. Let's face it, you can never
expect backwards compatability on the motherboard chip level and what you
are demanding is the equivalent to upgrading an XT to a 386DX in the
original chip socket. PC users don't toss their machines into the closet
when their onboard CGA and EGA graphics become obsolete, they upgrade with
a board which is what we will have to resort to (whether the board comes
from Commodore or not).
You said you were going to play devil's advocate, not double-standard.
If Commodore has the guts to leap this platform in to the future by not
limiting themselves to full backward compatability, I'll applaud the
move.
How many times have we read messages here scolding CBM's lack of
advancement in the areas of sound and graphics? MANY! The fact is that the
reason most of the personal computing world is saddled with the msdos
albatross is that MicroSoft didn't have the guts five years ago to make
that leap. If CBM wants to flourish in the future, then it has to look for
and develop the new technologies that will once again make the Amiga the
"wow!" machine it was when first introduced.
Like many other Amiga users, I hope that a simple chip set upgrade will
keep my machine state of the art… but I won't bitch at CBM because they
finally have the foresight to move the technology forward. If I can afford
it, I'll get the new machine. If I can't, I'll just hang on to what I've
got until I can.
CBM is to be applauded for the level of compatibility they have maintained
throughout OS upgrades over the years. As I understand it, we even lost
some of the features of 2.x just to make the OS functions more compatible
with older software. Now it's time to move on.
sorry… I needed to get that off my chest>
Michael
…..on AutoPilot
PLEASE STOP SHOUTING!
It would be in Commodore's best interest (and ours), if the new machines
were not backwards compatible. We need a major technological infusion.
–Paul
I think you're overstating the case. Or do you want ALL of your software
to suddenly stop working. Or do you mean something else by 'backwards
compatible'?
Vic,
I don't want all of my software to break. MS-DOS users have been crippled
because of IBM's need to stay compatible. In order for Commodore to leap
frog back into the technological lead some things must be sacrified.
I know it sounds painful but it really is neccesary. The graphics chips
are at a dead end. Hopefully the engineers are keeping us loyal and
thrifty users in mind during the quantum leap.
–Paul
I thought the next big thing was going to be device independant graphics.
Wouldn't that make the new chipset irrelevent? I'd bet that something far
better than the current graphics could be done with an off-the-shelf chip.
Wouldn't it make more sense to leave the current chipset alone for
compatibility (maybe upgrade paula to 16 bit sound & more voices) and not
reinvent the wheel?
Jim
Paul,
Hey, I'm on _your_ side <grin>. I'm not particularly worried about the
compatibility issue (i.e., I expect that what we've written will continue
to run. And no, I have NO first knowledge about whether it really does).
Actually, as i understand it (and heard it) that most of the 2.0 compatible
software "will" be compatible with the new machines. It's just that "new"
software that will address the new specific features of the new Amigas will
not work with our current models. I forsee in the future that even if
Commodore does not provide hardware level upgrades, that 3rd parties may.
It is not that importatn, what is important is that CBM make the
technological plunge regardless of whether compatiblity is maintained or
not……
-Jonathan
Looking at it in pure cold commercial terms, no manufacturer could afford
to release a completely new machine onto a recession-hit market unless it
could use a large amount of existing software.
Making it compatible with existing software means that people will be
prepared to upgrade, and it also means that there's a substantial software
base … as time goes on, that software base will expand to use the new
features (whatever they are) of the new machine.
On the other hand, make it totally incompatible with the existing range and
you have a machine with no (or very limited) software that is going to have
to start from scratch. That's bad news in anybody's book!
Mike (from the UK)
"…On the other hand, make it totally incompatible with the existing range
and you have a machine with no (or very limited) software that is going to
have to start from scratch. That's bad news in anybody's book!…"
Sounds like the original A1000 Amiga! Doesn't it?
Chris
Indeed it is … but, the A1000 was a highly innovative machine in a market
that couldn't quite get enough technology … it did take a long time to
establish itself in the consumer market … but all this was a long time
ago, when we weren't in a world recession and the market wasn't quite
flooded with personal computers.
It was the context of the current market-place that I was trying to stress
which is very different to the market-place in 87/88.
I know in my own mind how I'd like to see Commodore go … it's more a case
of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"
How about a Commodore PC-Amiga which is basically a '486 PC but with a
complete '030 Amiga on board … the base machine is the PC, so that it
becomes highly attractive for business use (since few companies will now
buy anything that isn't PC compatible) but it uses the Amiga as a graphics
board which (purely by chance <ahem>) can also run the complete range of
Amiga software.
This could lead, in my view, to the production of plug-in Amiga co-pro
cards for existing PCs and, when the PC users see how 2.04 (or beyond!)
works compared to Windows maybe they'll start using the Amiga side more …
etc etc.
This is only pie-in-the-sky in a way, but it does represent the germ of an
idea which I wish Commodore would pursue … okay, we have bridgeboards
_now_, but not fast 486's and, in any case, the marketing doesn't stress
this. After all, the Amiga can be a PC _and_ a MAC … what more could one
want. But the market-place would need the emphasis shifted to the PC or
MAC capabilities.
Sorry … didn't mean to go on!
Mike (from the UK)
Intereesting germ of an idea you got there. A PC-Amiga. Of course it would
allow full expansion in both directions, and maybe allow the Amiga side to
use PC cards?
chris
Personally, I'd rather see the Amiga as the "primary" machine….. and an
'040 Amiga at that.
Assuming that the "AA" chipset can do 256 color graphics @ 1024×768 Rez
(and if it can't, C= really should re-think things) at least well enough to
emulate a super-vga card, a Zorro III 32-bit 486 bridgecard sould be
possible that will give you a 486-based PC in an Amiga system. If the AA
chipset allows "Super-VGA" emulation through a bridgecard of this type,
well, what else would you need? (If C= wanted to get really crazy, they
could write a Windows display driver that could use the Amiga to do all the
graphics for Windows 3.x/NT — now wouldn't that be a pip!)
Brian
NOTE: this is of course a pipe dream….
– via Whap!
Now that *IS* a good idea. There again pigs might fly 🙂 Pete from West
Dorset in Englands West Country – via Whap!
A pipe dream that would be possible if Commodore spent the same percentage
of their income on R&D as, say, Apple.
I'd agree that the Amiga should be the primary machine … but the whole
point of having a twin machine (PC+Amiga) is to allow the Amiga to get into
businesses and it's only inside the PC Trojan Horse that this could happen.
My original suggestion was really just as you describe … using the Amiga
as a powerful Windows display driver … there needs to be a bit or reverse
psychology here 🙂
Mike (from the UK)
Brian,
As soon as you get up to numbers like x 768 you've given up on video
compatability. Do you really consider that a wise decision?
How do you give up video compatability unless you stop supporting multiple
res's? The ECS does 480 non 960 interlace but still supports standard NTSC
(Pal) resolutions, so I don't see a problem. BTW a competing service to
CI$ is having a LIVE forum on Sat night (at 10 or 11 PM EST) with C= and
they say they'll talk about the new stuff, in case CIS doesn't like names
dropped it's on GE*** (I'm sure most people know who they are).
BEN:Leigh's Computer's
I have noticed in the last couple of months the sincere slow down in
postings, new downloads, and general activity in the Amiga forums. I
gather that things are happening on GE*** now. I left GE*** a year or so
ago because I was completely disgusted by the SysOps and the overall lack
of quality reading, lack of Whap!, and lack of speed.
Now here I am in CIS and I find out that Commodore is going to have a
conference on that network and not here? Why? What happened to the
activity here? I stopped by AmigaUser last Sunday at 9:15 pm… there was
not a single soul online to talk too at the scheduled conference time!
Tell me, when was the last big scheduled conference with anyone from
Commodore? I can either conclude one or two things. Either the SysOps
here have slowed down, or I am feeling the effects of summer on CIS. 🙂
Both may have a ring of truth I'll wager.
The most interesting messages of late here have been based around rumors of
a mythical amiga and how non-disclosure prevents any discussion (including
in the very dead closed developer forum) of anything relating to them.
Which certainly I can understand, but gentlemen & gentle ladies, where is
the beef? What am I paying for here?
Come on CIS Sysops, lets see some activity! GET COMMODORE HERE!
And whilst I am flaming a bit, Ben I am tired of the constant nasty
comments about ASDG and Perry. You both have fine products, it serves no
one to see nasty pokes in public here. Frankly it disgusts me. Do I
really have to tell you that if you having nothing good to say, then don't
say anything at all. I'd appreciate a bit of silence about ASDG and Perry.
-mark=
– whappity whap whap… whap whap!!
Folks,
Since I did not go to DevCon nor have I recieved anything in my
'registered' developer bag, and since I am not under non-disclosure, let
me tell you what I think the new chipset consists of. Then tell me if you
think it is going to be the mind blowing upgrade that we are all hoping
for.
After reading usenet forever and a day and reading the postings by Dave
Haynie and others it seems to me that yes there is a new Denise chip. What
"net opinion" seems to say is that this chip will enable all 8 bit planes
giving us 256 colors in 320×200. The Amiga OS already will support this
many bitplanes without a major rewrite. The net opinion also seems to
indicate that there is not enough bandwidth on the Zorro II bus to allow
this chip to work as an optional Zorro II board. (knowing that any new chip
would not likely be pin compatible with the old chip set) And finally,
according to Dave Haynie the Zorro III bus of the Amiga 3000 is fast enough
to accommidate a chip set of this nature on a card.
Thus there could be a new machine… in fact that seems likely, considering
the age of the A500/A2000 and the current rumblings in Europe. It could
have a new Denise chip which sports 256 colors in low resolution and it may
not work in the current line of Amigas (except the A3000 with a board in a
Zorro III slot).
So if you are keeping rumor tabulations you will find that yes, the rumored
mongo-AA chip set may indeed require a new computer, and may only work on
the A3000 and yet it is not exactly an awesome upgrade that we are hoping
for.
My point is, the postings like the one that circulated around the net
talking about the A4000 etc. only hurt things and take what little bang
there may be out of what the actual surprise is. I am afraid we are all
going to be dissapointed by the revealation of what the AA chip set may
really be.
My personal dream would wish that there would be a 32 bit blitter, a new
high speed Denise with 24 bit capability and 16 bit audio out of Paula,
[ MORE ]
[ continuation ]
anything short of this may be interesting but not that exciting. The other
side of the coin is that Commodore could finish their RTG work and allow
third parties to couple their graphics upgrades to the Amiga. In my
opinion the most exciting graphics board in development right now is not
from GVP, nor Centaur. It is from Digital Micronics and it is called The
Vivid 24 board.
Of course my A3000 will have the first 'graphics board' upgrade if it is
made available. 🙂 🙂
-mark= Once an Amiga owner, always an Amiga owner! Viva la Amiga!
– whappity whap whap… whap whap!!
Mark:
I tend to agree with your assesment, but not your conclusion (that built
in 24 bit graphics and 16 bit sound is desirable). IMHO, such niceties are
valuable only to the minority of computer users and are (or will be)
available at moderate cost to Amiga owners via add on boards.
Building such hardware in to the Amiga would only artificially inflate its
retail. My guess is that CBM is striving for a middle ground that offers
reasonable increases in standard video display modes and sound capability,
while supporting via the OS and add on boards, the higher capabilities.
Hopefully, this will allow them to produce a new series of Amiga computers
that can retail at the same or lower price lvels of the 3000 series (how's
_that_ for wishful thinking?).
I also agree with you that many may be disappointed at what at first sight
may appear to be ho-hum advances.
Michael
…..on AutoPilot
MarkI've read a little about this Vivid 24 board. Do you have any first
hand experience of what it actually does?
– Richard
No personal experience about the Vivid 24. However, in comparing flyers to
OpalVision and other vapor hardware (EGS, etc.) it certainly does stack up.
The last time I talked to them, Digital Micronics that is, they said that
the Vivid 24 board was in developers hands now.
-mark=
– whappity whap whap… whap whap!!
MarkIt seems like all of the self proclamations for the new crop of 24 bit
boards are rather glamorous. The price of the Vivid 24 sounds pretty good.
I'm really looking forward to some first hand accounts of these products to
sort it all out.
– Richard
I'm holding back on the purchase of a 24-bit display device until CBM
decides on a graphics standard (DIG). With SAGE and GVP's EGS it seems like
a battle is going on between the hardware developer's. I don't want to risk
purchasing a 24-bit board and then find out that they are not going to
support CBM's standard when and if they ever announce it. So CBM's decision
on this matter is WAY overdue.
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
"Or do you want ALL of your software to suddenly stop working."
Vic,
Look who is overstating his case! The technology leap will be in the
hardware.. Do you honestly think Commodore would throw out the AmigaOS?! Of
course not. Intuition will be enhanced to work with many different kinds of
graphics hardware, or at the very least the new AA chipset; But OS
compatability with old modes will have to be retained. The new AA chipset
won't make our software stop working any more than the addition of
halfbrite did, and for those esoteric packages that MAY require the new
chipset they will arrive none too soon (i.e. don't hold your breath waiting
for them).
Put simply, we have a sophisticated OS that is capable of crossing
hardware boundaries if Commodore adds the right extensions. You should give
it more credit and not worry so much about software (or HAVE you seen 2.04
yet?).
Chris,
_I'm_ not worried at all.
Paul,
>>>>It would be in Commodore's best interest (and ours), if the new
machines were not backwards compatible<<<
This is only true if Commodore offers some sort of motherboard swap
program…I'm not sure if even a trade-in program is going to do it with
the new machines. I'd like to get something for all of the expansion stuff
I've crammed in my A2000…
Jonathan
– via Whap!
There was an article from someone who allegedly has access to one of the
new machines in a recent AM-Report, either 2.05 or 2.06.
And it made front page in "AMIGA news" August vol 1 no. 7. We just got
them today.
BEN:Leigh's Computer's
As Mark M said, a college kid on usenet made up that whole article about
the "A4000" etc. He was blasted for doing it, as a previous dream article
had ended up the same way: copied all over the place as if it were fact.
It was also talked about here when it first showed up on some BBS, but the
CIS sysops wisely chose not to allow it being uploaded here and causing
even more confusion. Unfortunately, that wishlist will probably roam
around the nets and newsletters for several more months now. Arrgh.
Kevin,
I dunno.. That 'dream' sounded awfully authentic to me. I think a fantasy
would dive into full 24-bit, 60fps animation and an OS that sounds like the
Amiga's one-upmanship of the NeXT OS.
Chris – you'd have to read the amiga usenet groups daily to understand, but
the whole point of such fantasy articles is to create as believable a
scenario as possible… exactly by NOT throwing in stuff like 24-bit
animation.
It's actually almost an art form over there these days. Except that almost
every one of the fantasies has come back within weeks, transformed into
being a "fact" (usually by leaving off the author's giveaway punchline),
and people have gotten really tired of it happening now.
The author of this particular fantasy was Skip Sauls, who's also known
there for his humorous postings as his alter ego "Slu Aspiks" (his name
backwards), which also fooled a lot of people at first (Slu likes to slam
the Amiga :-).
Btw, you should've seen all the similar authentic-sounding postings around
April 1st <grin>…. and how many people got sucked in by those as well.
People are so desperate for a sign of a new machine right now, they'll
believe almost anything. Even the truth. I myself posted an item about a
new, black, CD-ROM equipped model "1000" which sucked many people in. The
CDTV, of course, is known as the CDTV 1000 by Commodore 🙂
cheers – kev
Jerry,
I would only say this….but preface it with the following:
The following is a *GUESS*, I have NO knowledge of what Commodore's
plans are.
Most computer companies like to introduce new models when there is
a good chance they'll sell well. The best selling time is between October
and December, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if a new machine *might*
hit the market sometime in September or October.
That presumes there is a new machine to sell….as I said, I have
NO knowledge of Commodore's plans…either for a new machine, or when to
market it…only a guess.
Don
Well everyone I think the cat might well be already out of the bag! I just
picked up (this afternoon) a copy of the latest issue "AMIGA NEWS" at my
Amiga dealer. The headline: "The A4000 – The Scoop on Commodore's Newest"
I'll quote the first two lines: "I've been chomping at the bit to speak out
and right now I just don't care about the non-disclosure agreement. We have
been beta-testing the A4000 and another model which may be called the A1000
Classic, A800, or possibly some other name. . ."
The article then goes on to describe these new models in some detail. Now
the author of the article is NOT identified, but it does sound like it was
written by someone who has had their hands on these new models. I asked my
dealer if it was accurate, but he was also bound by a non-disclosure
agreement, and just gave me a sly smile! Jeese, intrigue, intrigue,
intrigue!!! Seems silly to me.
-Paul-
Paul,
Ah, the Skippy story. Amiga News actually reprinted that? Gads. It's
fiction, folks, with a few facts mixed in. The author even admitted that.
In the original post, the author's name was there and everything.
Man… Did Amiga News even disclaim it or anything?
Denny, FICTION WITH FACTS MIXED IN!!! Jeese! More confusion and
misinformation. As a journalist you must be really pulled between your
agreements with CBM and your "sacred duty" to report the truth to us poor
misinformed masses! ;')
-Paul-
Besides, the author claimed that the Amigas were being beta-tested at Ole
Miss.
Now why in the heck would Commodore beta test Amigas at a backwoods preppy
college? 😉
Because they've been unsuccessful at getting them through the front door
of any of the high class preppy ivy leaugue schools of course. 😉
Michael
…..on AutoPilot
Denny,
No…the author didn't claim they were being tested at Ole' Miss.
His internet node was simply path'ed there. The usenet posting I saw never
claimed that was the site of the beta test.
Don
Notice this last paragraph, which is usually deleted whenever someone
reprint's Skippy's article:
+ In case anyone has not figured it out yet, this post reeks of being
+ a pipe-dream. But then again it may all be for real. It is left as
+ an exercise for the reader to determine the validity of this post.
+ Have fun. 🙂
That article was the one that was floating around USENET for a while. I
have the whole article if anyone wants to read it. It sounds real enough,
but who knows?
Nick
Paul,
That sounds like a reprint of a rumor posted on usenet. I've read
the original…and let's put it this way. IF they're truly under a
non-disclosure (and they would have to be if they are really beta testing a
new machine) then they aren't very honest and I wouldn't trust anything
they said. If they're not beta testing a machine….then the whole thing
is fantasy.
Don
Don,
That is why I did not post any of the information from the article. I
just wanted to report that it WAS the front page story in Amiga News.
Boy a little openness from CMB sure would clear the air!
-Paul-
Yup, the same story as was on UseNet, and which also appeared in AMreport
2.06 (which, incidentally, I haven't seen on CompuServe, but is available
in a variety of other places) … how much is truth and how much fiction, I
can't say … but, if someone has that much disrespect for a legally
binding agreement, I'd guess they had just as much disrespect for the
truth.
Mike (from the UK)
Paul,
You have been duped. That message was posted on usenet as a yet another in
a series of "what I wish Commodore would put out". Your dealer is clueless
about what is going to be announced, non-disclosure or not. The only
people who have a clue are commercial developers or those who went to
DevCon and signed a non-disclosure there.
I am a registered developer and I gurantee that I have not been told any
deep secrets. Dealers are not commercial developers unless they have a
product they intend to sell that they created.
-mark=
– whappity whap whap… whap whap!!
Looks like they should rename "AMIGA NEWS" to the "AMIGA STAR" or
"AMIGA INQUIRERER". That's the last 95 cents I waste on that rag!
BTW My dealer does attend Devcon, so he may have developers status as
well.
-Paul-
Jerry,
I too have an Amiga 500, with a 42 meg HD and memory expansion to 5Mb. I
had been wanting a newer and more powerful computer for some time. I know
full well that the price of computer hardware drops rapidly. Then a few
days ago, I read an article which talked about the new A800 and A2200 which
"will feature a brand-new version of the custom chip set, giving the Amiga
a stunning new graphics and sound specification". This will be the
Motorola DSP56001 "multimedia chip" – a "digital signal processor". Coming
out in October at the earliest.
Great, I thought, all I have to do is to wait a few more months and I can
buy a wonderful new machine.
So, last Saturday, I went out and bought me an old technology, soon to be
obsolete A1500 (= A2000 ?) with a 240Mb hard drive. Why? Because it is
available NOW! I realised that if I waited for the technology, I would
wait for ever, because when the next wonder machine comes out, you can bet
that it too will soon be as obsolete as the C64.
And when I have more money to spare, I will invest it in an accelerator,
which by that time will be a lot cheaper, especially if these rumoured new
machines are fitted with a 68020 or 68030. I'm gambling on these new
machines being software compatible with the old Amigas. I consider this to
be a sure thing, as I'm not a gambling person.
Remember, all computers are 'overpriced' until the time they become
obsolete. Then you can buy them "cheap" while stocks last. The money I
paid for my old C64 would have bought me an A2000 just a few years later.
Yet the C64 was a great machine, and I never regretted buying it.
And you're right, having good support from other companies is a great asset
for any computer.
Regards,
Shraddhan – via Whap! from Hertfordshire in the UK
THANKS for the info I always seem to buy just days before a major price
reduction or a new model with more features at a reduced price. GUESS I'M
GUN SHY…..!! I want an accelerator, and I like the 500 with the ACTION
REPLAY.. BUT THE 2000 has some great expansion features…. I believe that
if they do come out with the AA chip set the 2000 video slot MIGHT be used
for and update, with the 500 left FAR BEHIND….. WHO KNOWS ??????? NOT ME
later jerry
"BUT THE 2000 has some great expansion features…. I believe that if they
do come out with the AA chip set the 2000 video slot MIGHT be used.."
Jerry,
I would say not.. since none of the expansion slots on the A2000 have
enough bandwidth (the ability to move a certain amount of data in a certain
amount of time). If Commodore does make an AA board, it will probably be
geared for the A3000's far superior Zorro-III slots; and in the unlikely
event an AA board was made available for the A2000, it would probably run
like a molasses on a cold day (which would leave the A2000 running like a
glorified PC/VGA snail, wouldn't it? speed is the Amiga's advantage).
"…AA chipset…"
Please elaborate a bit for us who missed the beginning of this thread. What
is the AA chipset?
chris
"Please elaborate a bit for us who missed the beginning of this thread.
What is the AA chipset?"
That is the supposed name of the new generation of custom chips Commodore
is woking on. The new chips will most likely greatly improve graphics,
sound and performance.
Jerry,
It seems to me that I _always_ buy computer hardware just before a price
reduction. A year ago I bought a 42M hard drive. The price seemed really
good at the time. A week ago I bought a 240M hard drive. Cost just 60%
more than the 42M drive!
Some years ago, I spent all my money on an Epson FX80 printer. Nowadays,
for the same money, you could buy an A500 AND a BETTER printer.
A few years earlier, I forked out 75 pounds for a 16k memory expansion.
Two days ago, I paid 94 pounds for 2M of memory. This latter price was a
rip-off (should have been nearer 80 pounds), but I was in a hurry and
didn't want to wait for mail order.
And I guess you could well be right that when Commodore brings out
computers with improved video chips, third party suppliers will provide us
with similar facilities for the A2000 video slot.
Regards,
Shraddhan – via Whap! from Hertfordshire in the UK