# r4 paranoia
62 messages in this thread
<< To custom design my r4 system for architecture I'll have lay out another
bundle?!… Please tell me if I'm just having aaa premature ANXIETY
ATTACK!!!>>>
Gary,
I think you are. "Plug in" refers to software, not hardware. From your message
it sounds like you are expecting hardware and system components that need to be
plugged into your computer. This is not the case. Plug ins are software modules
that can be added to your existing software to enhance the capabilities of the
program. You don't need to spend any additional money on hardware, and it
doesn't take up any additional slots in your computer or other resources. The
only cost should be the cost of the plug in module (or upgrade charge).
-Brian
Brian,
I guess what I was getting at was this:
Is r4 to be a number of IPAS routines at indeterminate cost or like r3
a single new package of improvements and additions into which all the
new IPAS plug-ins can be applied? help, Gary
Gary,
I think that is the ultimate question. The announcement seemed really vaque.
Considering the fact that they listed all of those features as part of R4, it
would seem that they were integrated into the package, but also considering
that various parties developed and will no doubt have to support the various
IPAS programs, it would seem as though they were not part of R4, but rather an
external cost just like all other IPAS programs.
This is a major break from standard SOP for Autodesk, Has anyone seen a release
date for R4? Or can anyone from Adesk who is not at Siggraph clarify exactly
what R4 entails?
Paul
Paul,
Someone here mentioned September (???). I'm purely speculating, but it seems
that R4 is a plug-in to the existing R3. I'm guessing it would require the R3
executable to be modified/replaced, the display drivers, etc. – something like
that. I suppose the core interface code is so stable and generally robust, that
this approach makes sense and sort-of provides a "3ds Lite" that a number of
people have requested (essentially R3 with no R4 plug in's). I'm guessing that
since some of these R4 features go beyond the status quo at this time on this
platform, to workaround a possible price increase for the base program – you
only pay for the R4 modules if you need them….otherwise R3 *is* the base R4
package at the current SRP. I DO NOT HAVE ANY INSIDE KNOWLEDGE WHICH PROMPTED
THE STATEMENTS ABOVE. I'm just trying to reason it out based on what's been
posted so far. I imagine we'll find out pretty soon. Agree/Disagree ?
BILL
Bill,
Check out my message to Kevin, and give me some feedback on it.
Paul
Paul,
<< Check out my message to Kevin, and give me some feedback on it. >>
Did you get my last message re: my *speculations* regarding R4 ? My CsNav s/w
is going beserk again. Anyway, please see my message to Kevin as well, as I'm
attempting to nail down just exactly what the deal is wrt R4.
If your assumptions are correct, I completely agree with you. However, here's
my take on it, and thus my line of questions to Kevin:
As I see it, (hopefully) ALL of the features/functionality listed in the upload
from Gary comprise R4, but rather than being implemented in the core code –
they will be implemented via IPAS plug-ins. Of course, as I speculated earlier,
I'm sure the main executable will be changed as well in some way. This should
insure that the extremely stable core interface code remains as such I would
think. Then of course, there will be other 3rd party IPAS at additional cost.
There were indications in the upload from Gary that some/all of the new modules
would mimick the core interface design where applicable (such as the Editor).
If I'm interpreting all of this correctly, then I think it'll be OK. For
instance, if a Patch modeler is implemented via IPAS, but ALL Editor functions
are still available, plus (obviously) the new Patch-specific ones – and the
interface is full-size multi-viewport, then that seems fine. Especially if the
IPAS3-developed interface tools are also implemented, such as the RT PV,
variable zoom/pan, etc..
Of course, in this case – that would *_imply_* the ability to construct &
display control curves for the patches in the Editor (I hope). Or perhaps, the
system will function similar to working with Skin.axp now (not so good, in this
case). I would hope interactive local deformations would be included as well,
and operate on curves – not polygons, and without resorting to deformation
lattices. The very robust selection tools of R3 should work just fine on CV
sets, as opposed to vertices/faces, etc.. Just so long as there's a robust set
of *spline* linear/non-linear deformation functions.
Other than the many questions that can be raised for each R4 "module" (assuming
my take on this is correct) as above, what's throwing me is the $295 upgrade
price wrt the normal u/g price. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I'm a
little surprised it's so confusing, but it is just the first day down there I
guess.
BILL
I think we're all a little confused. Someone mentioned "Schrieber's IK
module", and if so, it doesn't sound like that is part of the deal with the
$295 upgrade (why the drop in price?). Someone from Adesk should officially set
us straight on this, we need the details of what EXACTLY is included in the
upgrade(is EVERYTHING outlined in Gary's message included for $295?) and what
features are going to be 3rd party add-ons for extra $$?
Jonas or Brian or Nik?
David
PS. Could somebody give some details about the new IPAS stuff announced at the
show? Aside from Gary's list of R4 features, nobody has mentioned anything.
(Actually Gary did mention "bone based skeletal animation"… any word on
that?)
David, I'm as confused (or more) as everyone else. I just uploaded an edited
blurb from the file area here, but I'm still not sure what's going on. We'll
see. See my messages to Paul L. as well.
BILL
"Jonas or Brian or Nik?"
I'm sorry everything is so confusing. The information I have seems to have
come from SIGGRAPH – the info by Kevin Krell and Robert Ritger seems accurate.
So I can't add much.
It's my understanding that the main new features of R4 will be delivered via
these IPAS routines (and I don't know enough to comment on Schreiber vs
Autodesk Inverse Kinematics; they sound different) and that many of the changes
to 3DS.EXE were made to enhance support of the IPAS functionality.
Autodesk Product Support will be responsible for answering dealer questions on
these IPAS features, even though the code originated outside of Autodesk.
The code at the show is probably not finished – I'd bet some modules/features
are more showable than others.
Jonas is at the show, but told me before he left that he wouldn't be logging
in. Brian and I are not at the show and are reading this thread. I was not
aware of pricing until the SIGGRAPH announcement.
By the way, I don't believe there has been intent to confuse people, as
speculated in one of the messages. More likely with SIGGRAPH as a deadline,
some of the issues were not properly addressed.
I am pleased at the good response to the features – it looks like there will be
some fun times animating!
Nik and all interested parties:
I double checked all the info that I posted yesterday and Jonas has confirmed
its accuracy. Jonas has also answered the questions that had popped up in the
confusion. BTW Jonas is also going on vacation after SIGGRAPH.
====Who wrote the 'plug-ins'? The spline-patch modeller is by Danny Mercurio.
The Inverse Kinematics is by Rolf Berteig. All of R4 will be directly
supported by Autodesk and all of the plug-ins were written by individuals under
contract with or employed by Autodesk or by the Yost Group.
====Who will be supporting the new 'plug-ins'? Autodesk will support all of R4.
====How do they work? The demos of all of the plugins show what looks to be a
new module. For instance the spline-patch modeller shows an interface which is
similar to the 3D Editor. When your done with the model you can send it to the
editor for including it in a scene.
====What are some of the base code enhancements? As previously mentioned, the
main purpose for upgrading the source code for R4 was to allow easier access to
handles for 3RD party developers. However, some bug fixes were made to the
source code and some speed enhancements. There is a fix for finding the dongle
on faster ports. The limit to the number of objects has been increased.
====Other info: R4 will be availlable on CD ROM in addition to floppies. You
will need to upgrade to R4 to make use of the six plugins as they will not
function with R3. I saw no indication that buying them separately was possible
or even desirable. R4 is not recompiled for Pentium. The R4 manual will be an
addition to the R3 manuals if you simply upgrade. This manual will only
describe the new R4 features. If you buy R4 straight out you'll get the R3
manuals + the new R4 manual.
====Speculation: I've been following the path which ACAD has followed and I
have also noted that the developer kits for IPAS, etc have been ported to NT.
Nobody at the Adesk booth would say that NT is next for 3DS but it looks good
for R5 IMHO.
Bob
Thank you Bob ! Finally.
BILL
Thank _you_ Mr. Ritger!
Do you know if the spline base models will render directly, in this
new R4? Or will there need be a conversion to polygonal models
for rendering.
Always appreciate a fellow who can speak so coherently!
Great summary.
PMJI, – I'm not at SIGGRAPH and haven't seen the product yet, but I can assure
you that the patches are subdivided/tessellated into poly's for dumping to the
renderer.
BILL
Rachel:
The spline-patch modeller is a separate module and requires that you export the
newly created geometry to the editor. I believe this means that a translation
to polygons must take place. I'm not the expert on this so I'll defer to those
in the know.
What's new with you? I'm gonna guess that Puppet People for People is a
possibility? When I saw all of the motion capture/kinematic stuff being demoed
this week I pictured a thousand or so walking People for People milling about
in the lobby and strolling the hallways of a building I'm working on.
I got a bunch of ideas for you if your interested.
/__________From your message___________\\
Always appreciate a fellow who can speak so coherently!
__________________________________________
Tanhsk Rahcle blush me making your. :-]
Bob
The rendering of BEZIER patches – this great feature seems likes its being
overlooked by people. Here's the scoop –
Bezier patches will (at your option) call a BEZIER.AXP at rendering time, so
the renderer uses the position of the object BUT calculates its edge
smoothness by your viewing position to it. THis is called "addaptive
tessalation" and basically means that the closer you get, the smoother it
will render – you will not be able to get a jagged edge! On the plus side,
the farther you move away, the lower the face count and the faster it will
render. Organic landscapes just took on a whole new possibility!
Note that the face reduction is occurring in the body of the mesh, while the
edges remain rock solid.
– Phil
Thanks for the reply. The announcement was a complete surprise, and the way
the upgrade is put together and priced is unlike any before so it kinda threw
me (and others) into a slight state of confusion. Things are becoming clearer
now… I can't wait to get my grimey little hands on it!
David
Dave the Whale Artist,
Just back from Sig here. Your whales are an animated marvel – the audience at
the 3DS gig broke out in applause when it hit the big screen! I'm watching it
again (38 seconds!) right now from the video tape. Great work.
JKJ
Thanks. I was wondering if the whole clip made it on the tape, but I
spose not, as the uncut clip is 50 seconds. I bet they cut the water at the top
of the shot ( I had a feeling they would). I'd love to see some of the stuff on
the tape. I'll have to see if somebody at Adesk can send me one.
David
/* of people have requested (essentially R3 with no R4 plug in's). I'm guessing
that since some of these R4 features go beyond the status quo at this time on
this platform, to workaround a possible price increase for the base program –
you only pay for the R4 modules if you need them….otherwise R3 *is* the base
R4 package at the current SRP. */
Sortofa 3rd-party 1st-party 3rd-party kinda thing? -dave
He**, I'm just guessing at this point, and probably dead wrong <g>. It is
confusing, or maybe even too good to be believable. We'll see.
BILL
(This was sent earlier today, but I don't think it posted successfully. If it
did, please excuse the re-transmission)
Paul,
Someone here mentioned September (???). I'm purely speculating, but it seems
that R4 is a plug-in to the existing R3. I'm guessing it would require the R3
executable to be modified/replaced, the display drivers, etc. – something like
that. I suppose the core interface code is so stable and generally robust, that
this approach makes sense and sort-of provides a "3ds Lite" that a number of
people have requested (essentially R3 with no R4 plug in's). I'm guessing that
since some of these R4 features go beyond the status quo at this time on this
platform, to workaround a possible price increase for the base program – you
only pay for the R4 modules if you need them….otherwise R3 *is* the base R4
package at the current SRP. I DO NOT HAVE ANY INSIDE KNOWLEDGE WHICH PROMPTED
THE STATEMENTS ABOVE. I'm just trying to reason it out based on what's been
posted so far. I imagine we'll find out pretty soon. Agree/Disagree ?
BILL
Gary,
Ok, here's the deal: Autodesk 3D Studio R4 still lists for $2995,
upgrades will be $295. There are some general improvements and bug fixes, as
well as internal changes to fully support the IPAS plug-ins. Instead of the
18-month cycle we had come to expect from the Yost Group, enough enhancements
were able to be accomplished within 1 year of R3's release to warrant another
version. Certainly these items were at the top of many wishlists. Autodesk
typically tries to meet a ship date within 90 days of an actual product
announcement (as opposed to technology demonstrations). So, I think we will
see R4 by October. Anyone buying R3 at this time (purchased after 7/25/94)
will receive a free upgrade when R4 is ready.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Autodesk CAD & Multimedia Reseller
Thanks for the news Kevin.
Mark Yankee
ok, but does the $295 upgrade include all the ipas goodies listed by gary? or
are they extra and over on top of the 295 upgrade cost.
if they are extra, what is each module going to sell for?
ara
Ara,
Ok guys, calm down. This IS R4 I'm talking about (at least according to
the Preliminary Technical Specification – features are subject to change –
there, that's the legal stuff). The features Gary Yost listed are the
enhancements, many implemented as plug-ins, part of the NEW package. Clear?
Anyone buying R4 new gets it, R3 users get upgraded for $295.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
It occurs to me what may be confusing people is the mention of these new
features as "plug-ins", plus the mention of other, separate IPAS introductions
from third-parties. For instance, besides XAOS Tools' Rapture, Schreiber is
showing their new Imagine Puppeteer add-in. Autodesk is also helping to
promote third-party products, and may lend some marketing support. All of
these obviously enhance the value of 3D Studio to current and potential users,
nailing down more sales for Autodesk. Which should be a good thing.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
<< The features Gary Yost listed are the enhancements, many implemented as
plug-ins, part of the NEW package. Clear? Anyone buying R4 new gets it, R3
users get upgraded for $295. >>
Just to try to clarify further, are you saying:
1) That every feature listed in the upload from Gary makes up the R4 release ?
2) That many of the features will be implemented via a plug-in IPAS, as opposed
to being part of the core 3DS code/interface ?
3) That *_all_* features listed by Gary combined will be sold to R3 user's for
a TOTAL price less than a typical revision upgrade ($295) ?
4) And that R4 (new user) will still sell for the same SRP as R3 ?
If so, that sounds pretty amazing. Thanks.
BILL
Bill,
#1-4 Yes. Although #3 was ambiguous – $295 is the upgrade price for an
R3 user, to include the new goodies.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Thanks Kevin, this became clear with Robert's SIGGRAPH upload. If you read
through the entire threads since Gary's original (truncated) R4 announcement, I
believe you can see how this got a bit confused. I'm very anxious to see the
new package – sounds like a good deal.
BILL
Bill,
I still don't get this everyone is talking about a complete desription of all
of the features that's longer than the one first Gary posted. When I read
Gary's it ended for me at:
– auto… I agree that wasn't the end. When I d/l'd all of the RLSs and
R4FEAT.TXT they still ended at:
– auto…
Wheres's the complete u/l'd list?
Mark Yankee
In the file library.
Here's the rest of the truncated R4 features: (cont'd from original u/l)
– Plug-ins can automatically do a Hold or Fetch operations to
automatically backup and restore the entire 3DS scene.
– Surface material attributes can be read and modified by
PXP's
– Plug-ins can load and save .3DS files
– PXP's can initialize the Keyframer and perform KXP
functions.
– Atmosphere parameters can now be IPAS-controlled for
animated fog, layered fog, and distance cueing effects.
– Plug-ins can write custom status to the 3DS prompt window.
– New drop-down menus can be defined in the Text Editor.
– Plug-ins can define their own mouse cursors.
– Plug-ins can determine if 3DS is in network Master or Slave
mode.
– Plug-ins have complete access now to the 3DS file system,
allowing more flexible subdirectory control.
– Bit-blit operations inside of plug-in UI's are up to 20x
faster, allowing real-time scrolling and manipulation of
large bitmaps in IPAS dialogs for image processing apps.
– PXP's can now get and set information for AXP's to use at
render-time.
– KXP's can traverse the scene hierarchy in more-flexible
ways.
– KXP's can interpolate keyframes fractionally now, instead of
using integer-based frame-numbering.
BILL
Bill, Thank you.
I just can't wait til I get my hands on R4, it sounds so cool. 🙂
Mark Yankee
I think something happened to the R4FEAT.TXT file. I was able to download the
entire file with no problems, but it sounds like some people are getting a
truncated file. I will repost the file just to be sure.
-Brian
Thanks Brian,
Mark Yankee
Brian,
>> it sounds like some people are getting a truncated file.
The .txt file in the libraries is fine; it was Gary's original post in the
forum message sections that was truncated, probably because of the message
length/software he was using to post to CIS, and it didn't appear to turn over
to the next message.
John
Gary's *_original_* post was truncated, but the new one's fine.
BILL
all that for a 295 upgrade price is the deal of the century. i will take
ten.<G> (:-)
ara
Ara,
I'm mainly posting this to you because, you happen to be the last person who
posted to this thread. 🙂
After talking to a couple of people who spent the day on the exhibition floor,
even they are unsure as to what is included in R4. Schreiber is selling their
IK software for $499 as a plug in so it seemingly isn't part of R4, but instead
an external IPAS program like all others. I'm confused but then again, it's not
hard to get me into that state.
Paul
Paul,
I'm assuming you've read my previous longer messages already.
<< Schreiber is selling their IK software for $499 as a plug in so it seemingly
isn't part of R4, but instead an external IPAS program like all others. >>
Well, if the above is true – that certainly blows the he** outa' my theory.
This is getting really confusing. Maybe the lack of clarity is intentional, to
see how the market reacts before committing to anything <G>. Who knows at this
point ?
BILL
Bill,
Let's for the moment assume that everything is sold as a package, then we will
still be in a situation where all support for the new features for R4, i.e. –
IK, will be done by 3rd party vendors, right? I mean how could Adesk or the
Yost Group support code that they didn't write or control? So it looks like if
there's some agreement where Adesk packages all of these various programs
together, then the end user will now have license agreements with a number of
different companies, adn will have to look to the various companies for
support, enhancements, etc.
In any case, this entire thing has been extremely vaque and is unlike Adesk.
Very very bizarre.
Paul
P.S. – All of you messages are coming through fine.
<< IK, will be done by 3rd party vendors, right? I mean how could Adesk or the
Yost Group support code that they didn't write or control? >>
I don't know anything (or have forgotten) about the Schriber IK IPAS or how it
relates to R4. If these R4 features *are not* written by YG, then I see your
point. At this point in time, I have no idea who wrote & owns the code. In
fact, I don't know if the code actually exists in more than a show mock-up
form. See my recent upload for an edited blurb taken from the library area if
you haven't seen the NEW features upload.
If R4 consists of changes in the executable, support files, and several IPAS
plug-ins – and ADESK owns it – then it's really not too much different than
things are now. That is – Dan, Tom, Rolf, & Darrel (& Hayes) essentially have
written all of the code for the core releases & all the IPAS stuff, right ? But
usually, they are not available to support the code here themselves. So if the
various R4 plug-ins were written by someone else other than above, I guess it
would be about the same as far as the user is concerned. If the plug-ins were
written by one of the 4 above, then it would be exactly the same as now, right
?
If I'm guessing right about what in the He** R4 is in the first place, then
it's a novel and cost-effective way to develop an upgrade. (I can't think of
another similar example in the industry). If it's all features mentioned for a
$295 u/g, then it seems like a bargain. But honestly, I too would prefer a
rewrite to the core code if implementing spline modeling/animation, IK,
Dynamics, etc.. For instance, after reading over both R4 feature uploads, it
*appears* that the Patch modeler consists of having to start with a planar or
cylindrical patch matrix, rather than being able to construct patches from
control curves using various patch-creation functions. If this is true, it's
better than poly's (with appropriate deformation tools), but not what I hoped
for. But it would allow a Patch Modeler to be implemented easier via IPAS,
rather than dealing with the fact that the core code does not allow curve
creation in the Editor. Know what I mean ? I guess we'll see with time. I'm
really surprised how it's being conveyed, though.
BILL
Bill,
Very insightful. It is my understanding that the IK implementation is from
Shreiber and not from YG. If I'm wrong and I hope I am, than I am delighted,
amazed, etc. that Gary & co. have come up with such a great new release. If
instead the release is simply a number of bundled packages from various
manufacturers, then while it may be a step forward, it isn't without a number
of large drawbacks. I've talked to a couple of people who are at Siggraph and
they seem to feel that the IK and other "plug in" features are simply IPAS
programs like all the other IPAS programs. I really do feel strongly that it
makes a phenoenal amount of difference who owns and maintains the code as well
as how the code will be handled beyond the initial release.
Paul
i thought i had it. but now i am confused again. i guess its welcome to the
club for me all over again?!!
ara
Gee, it's beginning to sound like I guessed right <g>. Thanks for the info.
BILL
Kevin,
So it would seem that the list that Gary provided isn't an actual feature set,
but instead a list of possible IPAS routines that someone could purchase.
Seemingly, the product is going modular to the point that we will never see IK,
dynamics, etc inside the package but instead will be forced to look at outside
companies to supply various features and enhancements.
Is this what's actually happening? If it is, I have very mixed feelings as to
whether or not this is a possitive change. The major factor that sets 3DS above
the rest of the packages is the unbreakable code of the Yost group and the high
level of integrity with which the program is put together.
If in fact this is the way the future of the program is going, it is in the
exact opposite direction of the rest of the industry. Not to mention it will
leave the end user with the nightmare of trying to recieve support from a wide
group of various companies whose stability and future plans are both unknown
and unproven. Additionally if the Yost group actively supports and endorses a
particular third party's IPAS program, that would in itself sorta preclude them
from ever adding the feature directly to 3DS. I think the large number of new
sales generated by 3DS coupled with the laxidasical sales of IPAS
routines,(outside of those sold by the Yost Group), demonstrates the general
public's leariness of buying software from multiple vendors. All of a sudden
you're into a who's fault is it scenario…. "I can't get this to work
properly, how do I solve it, do I talk to the IPAS developer? They say it's a
problem in the Yost Group's code, the Yost group says to talk to Vibrant,
Vibrant says that it couldn't be related to any of their stuff, etc. etc. etc.
you get the picture.
I'm definately confused and in all actuality I'm kinda scared. 🙁
Hopefully someone will take the time to elaborate on exactly what direction
[>> Continued in next msg]
[>> Continued from previous msg]
3DS is headed in and what's on the horizon for feature integration.
Paul
from what has been clearified so far upgrade R4 will include all the feachers
gary listed in the upgrade package from r3 for 295.
if you buy r4 you get all the goodies in the package.
now this new enhancments are not implemented in one 3ds.exe upgrade.
some of them will be implemented as ipas included in the package and some will
be 3ds.exe enhancments.
i personally think this is a wonderful approach. you are no longer limmited to
the box that you are sold. so many more minds out there can actually contribute
to the enhancment of the product. also you dont have to buy everything to get
what you need, you can pick and choose.
in my opinion the more minds at work the more the imagination and the more the
competetion; all resulting in a superior product. what gary and friends have to
do is make sure that the interface and working logic of the plugins stay
consistant with each other so that each new plug in does not throw you in a
complete new alien world. and i think they can easaly achive this by
controlling the development kits and supervision.(just like windows)
take care
ara
Ara,
there are definately a number of ways to look at it. I've grown accustomed to
the excellent level of response, superb documentation, and overall strength of
the Yost Group and their code. As I look over at a wall of misc graphics
software and the seemingly endless pool of dollars that have gone astray, I'm
reminded of the fact that very few software engineers and their parent
companies share the level of commitment and responsiveness that Gary and his
team do. I have this nightmarish vision of having lots of different routines
from various companies that have come and gone, having to pay 10 or 20
different upgrade fees a year as different companies change various aspects of
their code. Having to wait months after every release to have the various 3rd
party vendors update their code to work with the latest release of 3DS, seeing
various packages go unsupported because I was one of the 10 people who bought
the IPAS and the authoring company can't see supporting the product with such a
small installed base., etc. etc.
You get the picture.
Your Windows anology is a good one, have you ever noticed how virtually every
program made for Windows that isn't written by Microsoft has inherent bugs.
Additionally, the vast majority of the programs either lag behind new releases
of Windows by 3-9 months or they simply go under because they cannot keep up
with the changes.
What if someday 3DS goes to a different platform? Then we have to hope, pray
and wait for all of the IPAS developers to port their code to the new platform,
and until they do we're dead in the water. 🙁
There's alot to think about, if indeed Adesk has decided to let the large
portions of enhancements added to other programs be implemented into 3DS by 3rd
parties as opposed to writing and implementing them internally.
Paul
>>You get the picture.
I do get the picture, and share the same concerns. I hope someone jumps
in and sets us straight on this issue…. (who's doing what?)
David
David,
I'm glad I'm not the only concerned party.
Paul
PMJI, but however this shakes out, I'm concerned too. I just don't know exactly
what the deal is yet.
BILL
What I find most amazing about this "what's-in-the-upgrade" mystery is why
someone at the show doesn't just grab Gary or Jack or Bennet by the convention
badge and not let go until the questions are answered!
Alec Jason
P.S. It's also weird that our sysops don't seem to know either.
Paul (and all concerned):
I'm here at SIGGRAPH and in one day you guys have generated so much
confusion
concerning R4 that I thought I'd try to clear up a few things. I
actually
met Gary today, quite a fellow. He told me that there would be some
upgrades
(he said 'around 40 different API changes') to the core code of 3DS
which
makes the core code of R4 a different animal than R3. Other changes
to the
core code will allow more hooks for 3rd party development.
I have a printed copy of the official R4 feature list right in front
of me as
I type so here you go:
Six Plug-ins (a guy at the Autodesk booth was saying that in R4 the
six
'IPAS' routines which would be included would be called 'Plug-ins' vs
'IPAS'
– I took this as meaning that 3rd party software would be 'IPAS' and
Autodesk/Yost stuff would be called 'Plug-ins':
"1. Inverse Kinematics to animate linked objects with intuitive
controls.
2. Spline-Based Modelling to quickly sculpt complex organic and
free-form 3D
surfaces and shapes.
3. Fast Preview Rendering to interactively create and evaluate color
keyframe animation tests.
4. A Keyframe Scripting Language to create data-driven animations
through
the use of BASIC-like scripts.
5. Perspective Match to accurately render a 3D model into a scanned
photograph or video still.
6. Encapsulated PostScript(EPS) output to produce raster files
directly from
the renderer. "
The price for R4 has been correctly noted as $2995 and is scheduled
(according to my first copy of 'Planet Studio') for the end of
September.
Current owners can upgrade for much less, of course; from R3 for
$295, from
R2 for $695, from version 1 for $795.
I hope I haven't added to the confusion. <G>
Bob
Thanks for the info Bob, it sounds like what you are describing is what I
speculated earlier. However, the question is: Who developed the 6 plug-ins ?
Did Schriber definitely NOT do the IK system ? And especially <g>, tell us how
well this stuff works ! Are the routines being shown fully functional at this
time ? Please <g>.
BILL
thank you for the clarification.
of course untill the next person jumps in with a complete differnt
clarification.
but yours comes from the most direct source. so i am again one happy man.
thanks
ara
Robert, Paul et al.
I was there, I asked Gary privately. It was my understanding when Gary told
ME that the R4 was rushed to release in September to stay competitive. R4 will
include the IK moduiles and the scripting language and the other 4 "plug-ins"
you mentioned for the R3 owener's upgrade of $295. I wasn't confused at all by
his statement. Seems to me those who were not there are speculating, and
conjecturing, as to what this means. I see it as an evolvement of 3DS to a
"shell" with some basic "plug-ins" (USED to be called IPAS) that is advancing
to a more robust open architecture for third party development.
One thing that all of you are possivbly loosing sight of is with open
architecture we just might have more than one IK plug-in to choose from for an
effect. We might get several from different competitive developers as well as
a basic one from Yost that comes standard just like we have more than one word
processor in windows to buy extra besides the Write program that comes with
Windows. Gary did demo the metaballs plug-in from Spain and clearly stated
that this was not part of the r4 package but had just arrived for him to look
at. It was also my understanding that some of the third party (additional $)
plug-ins may need the standard IK plug-in within r4 to even function.
I did not find any of the specific announcements confusing at all, other than
the surprise that Autodesk was changing their 18 month release policy. I think
I personally will start looking at 3DS as an operating environment for
"plug-ins" and then I will be able to deal with it better.
I think your responses have been right on target Robert and it seems to me that
all the conjecture is what's confusing others.
paul
i could not agree more with your view of adesk and yost group and the superb
quality of product they output. no questtions there.
by the same token i believe if they go that route they will probably be able to
control it to a point where the quality and the support remains at the higher
standered we are used to getting from them.
these are inteligent people with very successful software marketing background.
i would realy be surprised if all these issues were not considered by them
before the step was taken. so i am confident that they will be able to manage
this move or they would not have done it.
otherwise they would have shot themselves in their own foot.
i belive if they have made the move towards 3rd party development, at the cost
of them having to offer less directly (i.e. they are allowing more slices to be
cut out of one pie rather then keeping a big part for them, this is becouse
they belive the pie will be much bigger and they will end up with even a bigger
slice) is becouse they are counting on all these 3rd party enhancments to
result into more 3ds sale.
now if they believed that this move would have in any way distroyed thier
reputation on quality they would have never done it. it would only mean their
own defeat in the long run. and adesk is known for their long run approach to
product development.
as far as you relying on other comps. suporting their product for 3ds, well
that is not anything new. sice the introduction of ipas we should have had this
concern! yet for about 2 years we have been dealling with 3rd party programs
and everything has worked just fine. at least for me.
any way i understand that there con be many differant views and concerns. i
just thought i would say how i see this.
may these confusing days be over soon<g>
ara
To ALL – RE: Release 4:
Slow down! Give us a chance! We know you are excited and anxious.
Gary's announcement got posted before the official press releases. Those are
now posted as well. For the official word on everything download:
3DSR4.RLS – The official press release for 3D Studio Release 4
R4FEAT.TXT – The comprehensive feature list for R4
CDKR2.RLS – The official press release for Cyberspace Dev Kit 2.0
(I know, your not as interested in that one.)
Questions that have come up include:
What is the UPGRADE PRICE?
Answer: From R1 – $795
From R2 – $695
From R3 – $295
What is the NEW price?
$2995
Does this include ALL those IPAS routines listed in Gary's message and the
R4FEAT.TXT file?
Yes. The majority of the new features for Release 4 are being provided in the
form of IPAS routines.
When can I get it?
Official word: 3DS R4 will begin shipping in 3rd quarter of 1994. I don't have
any more specific information than that.
Are there any other questions?
I will be logging in all day from now (9:30 AM) until 5:00 PM PACIFIC TIME.
After that I will not log on again until 8:00 AM the following morning. Gary
or Jonas probably won't be logging on from SIGGRAPH. So questions posted after
5:00 Pacific time might not get answered until 8:00 AM tommorow.
Please. Posting a message at 7 or 8 in the evening, and then yelling about not
getting an answer that same night around midnight is not productive. People are
at the show, or out of the office, and are not logging on 24 hours a day. I
know you are excited, and I will do my best to answer every question.
-Brian
Autodesk
Brian and Nick,
I think we need to get together and start calling them PLUG-IN's instead of
IPAS .. especially with this new release and the functionality the the
functionality demonstration that they represent
.. this is a great opportunity to make the transition.
Ang
brian:
thanks for the info. you are right about us being very excited; super excited
in my case.
i am glad to see that all is included. i originally thought so but then i got
confused.
all is clear now.
you say it will ship in 3rd quarter of 1994. thats now! or did you mean 4th
quarter?
thanks for everything
ara
Paul,
If you guys are still confused, call me @ 310/820-4004, and I'll read
you from the Press Release, and prelim specs. brochure (which they're probably
handing out at Siggraph). Schreiber's IK, which I think is termed Imagine
Puppeteer, is a different product from that included in R4. I think Gary was
very clever to acquire/contract some IPAS routines for inclusion in 3D Studio,
as a means to implement these features. Low cost, and about 6 months or more
ahead of what otherwise would have been the next release (18-month cycle
usually, which would have made R4 due around April '95). This also lets the
Yost Group include any bug fixes, enhancements to assist other developers, and
other goodies that were started but not completed by the R3 release date.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Kevin,
Don't tie up your phone lines….
The press release can be downloaded. 3DSR4.RLS for the release and R4FEAT.TXT
for the full feature spec.
-Brian