CompuServe Thread

#Modelling Help

14 messages in this thread
#184058From: Chase DahlAug 9, 1995 12:14 AM
Hello. I'm an "amateur" 3DS4 user…with the amateur meaning that I actually _enjoy_ modelling, as opposed to most pros I know, who consider a modelling a nasty thing that has to be finished before the real work is done, preferably by someone else. This also means that I do not have a great deal of tools to work with…I can't afford them! Things like BonesPro et.al. are beyond me. I have a few of the IPAS disks. What I would just like to know are a few short techniques experienced modellers out there are willing to share on creating organic forms using just the base tools…slow torture without MetaBalls, I know. <G> I try things like trying to extrude the planes of a human face from a flat grid by moving vertices by hand. This probably sounds ludicrous to the good modellers, but hey, I'm experimenting. I try creating cross-sections of organic forms with lofted shapes, etc. I've been modelling off and on now for a few months, but those darn living objects….I can create spaceships like you wouldn't believe, but hell, ANYONE can make a spaceship if they can think in 3D and are a dab hand in paint-programs creating maps. I know most of you all out there are pretty busy doing important things, but if you could drop a few tips, I'd greatly appreciate it. I bought 3DS as a tool, but I just can't stop having fun with it to get serious. 🙂 The tutorials are the best I've even seen, but creativity can't taught by books. Thanks in advance, Chase Dahl occupation: baker hobby: 3D nerd 😮
#184064From: Peter K. WatjeAug 9, 1995 1:33 AM
Chase, The best way for organic shapes without any IPAS routines is to use the Loft/Fit with user defined cross section. If you are having problems visualing the the cross section take a precreated 3d Mesh like one of the heads on the CD or one at Avalon then take that shape and use the boolean to cut it up so you get a bunch of cross sections. Use these cross section as templates in your 2d Shaper by using display 3d Objects to create your 2d objects for the lofter. Peter W.
#184182From: Chase DahlAug 9, 1995 9:32 PM
Peter: Thank you for the tips. I understand that the deform tools, especially fit, are the most powerful modelling tools in 3DS, but they are a bit hard to conceptionalize. I guess I need to work with Fit more. Thanks! Chase
#184419From: Ernie JacksonAug 11, 1995 11:45 AM
>> If you are having problems visualing the the cross section take a precreated 3d Mesh like one of the heads on the CD or one at Avalon then take that shape and use the boolean to cut it up so you get a bunch of cross sections. Use these cross section as templates << What a great idea about how to "reverse engineer" an existing model. Thanks! – Ernie Jackson, 73177,2354 11-Aug-1995 09:29:37 PDT
#184067From: William A. TriffetAug 9, 1995 1:43 AM
>> What I would just like to know are a few short techniques experienced modellers out there are willing to share on creating organic forms using just the base tools<< Ahh.. without a doubt I would recommend," 3D Studio Tips & Tricks Series – Animals & People", by Michele Bousquet. Easy to follow. Come to think of it, check out the whole series. Enjoy! Bill – Triffet Animation Co.
#184532From: MARTIN G FOSTERAug 11, 1995 9:04 PM
Chase, for heads I create a bunch of "slices" (16 or so) in the 2d shaper and then brought them into the lofter on a surfrev path. The "slices" are cross-sections of a head from the top. Do half the head and then when happy (or just to visualize), do a mirrored clone of it, weld the 2 halves together, auto-smooth. There's a lot of tweaking of verts involved but the results can be spectacular. I used a similar technique, with the addition of the skin plug-in, for the film "Virtuosity". I modelled heads of Hitler, Manson, John-Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and some others from photos. Texture and bump maps can add extra details where geometry is lacking. have fun.
#184542From: Robert C. RitgerAug 11, 1995 11:25 PM
Martin: Now that you've modelled Hitler, Gacy and Dahmer will you be marketing a new line of meshes, "People for Killing People for People"? Man, Rachel is gonna hate me for that one. <G> – Bob Ritger
#184764From: MARTIN G FOSTERAug 13, 1995 4:24 PM
Bob, >> Now that you've modelled Hitler, Gacy and Dahmer << uh-oh! you forgot Manson and he's still alive you know. He has a huge ego and will be very upset that you missed him out. <g> >> will you be marketing a new line of meshes, "People for Killing People for People"? << ROFL! Funny thought … but no. I'd like to do some more work with these characters heads, but it would be more like self-promo work. I had an idea to do an OJ charicuture, but you know he's got a large legal team ….. Martin
#184548From: Chase DahlAug 11, 1995 11:37 PM
Martin: Thanks for the tips. It's good to see a pro help a novice out 🙂 I've been working with the fit tools to create shapes, such as the human torso, but it seems that most of my work is not with the "front and side" views of the shape (the X and Y fit shapes), but rather concentrates on the "top" view shape. I think I'll ditch the deform/fit and really work on simply creating the proper cross-sections in the 2D shaper. Again, thanks! Chase
#184765From: MARTIN G FOSTERAug 13, 1995 4:32 PM
Chase, >> I think I'll ditch the deform/fit and really work on simply creating the proper cross-sections in the 2D shaper. << you could get away without the deform/fit, (there's lots of ways of doing this stuff), but then the onus is on you to create the right path length/vertex positions and to move the slices into the correct position on the X/Z plane. IMHO, a head lends itself well to surfrev'ing whereas a torso lends itself more to deform/fit. You could do worse than borrow or buy a copy of "3d Studio Special Effects" from NRP (New Riders Publishing). I wrote 3 chapters and one was how to build human forms using the deform/fit multiple cross-section method. All the shapes are supplied, can be analyzed, and I hope will be heavily modified for peoples custom use. Martin
#185182From: John K. JordanAug 15, 1995 11:59 AM
Chase, >>modeling on a shoestring… As well-mentioned, you can model some amazing things using the deform/fit method. You might also try a shareware program called GIFDXF, which deforms a mesh by using the brightness values in a bitmap GIF file. This is approximately the same effect you can get with the (much more powerful) Yost Displace IPAS. Although GIFDXF is more suited for building things like terrain than organisms, it is possible to paint a face, for example, turn it into a mesh, then manually splice it to a head. BTW, don't discount modelling by editing on the face/vertex level. Believe it or not, many expert modelers spend a lot of time dragging vertices around. All the low-res People For People models, as well as Tom Knight's excellent high-res human (and other) models were done manually. You can start with a basic primitives such as a sphere or cylinder (or a rough Deform/Fit loft) and modify it on the object, face, edge, and vertex level. Set up user-views to work in where appropriate. Use Modify/Vertex/Weld (drag&drop) to collapse unwanted faces. I like to use Modify/Edge/Divide and Modify/Edge/Turn to add and adjust faces where more complexity is needed. (Very powerful but often overlooked functions) You can also use Create/Vertex and Create/Face/Build to add faces where needed. Experiment with operations like Bend, Taper and Scale on selection sets of vertices. Don't be afraid of booleans – they can be used to provide a good starting point for manual editing. Render a lot from different angles as you work. You might also try a small free IPAS that Gus Grubba wrote called View (I think). It will let you swing a mesh object around in 3D in wireframe or with shading – makes it easier to evaluate the true shape of a surface. The Yost Optimize and Displace IPAS routines are good for this (much better, in fact). Another modeling tip – assign the most commonly used functions like Select/Vertex/Quad and Modify/Vertex/Move to function keys. This will improve productivity tremendously. Also, at the risk of blasphemy, some "organic modelers" around here use other, cheaper, 3D packages primarily to supplement the 3DS modeler. There also have been freeware DOS and Windows metaballs modelers available here which you can use to make very organic meshes to bring into 3DS. One last thought – be very careful! You are flirting with the Rendered Side of the Force. I too started this as a hobby but it eventually consumed my entire sense of self and now it is all I do. JKJ
#185292From: Chase DahlAug 15, 1995 10:01 PM
JKJ: Thank you for your very _complete_ and concise guide to "cheap rendering" (I even bought 3DS4 when I was in Art School, so I got it, Liquid Speed, and AniPro 1.3 for $800. The Art School was a total waste of time, but the package wasn't). But what you said kinda made me heave this big, long-suffering sigh. I knew that one of these days I was gonna have to move individual vertexes around. Tedious, but hey, if it gets the results…the problem, of course, is getting lost in 3D space, but I think I will try to find that IPAS that lets you rotate a mesh in real time. I tried creating a human figure the other night using spheres that I folded, spindled, and mutilated…and was rather surprised by the result! The trick is not to know how to _model_, but rather knowing how to _break anatomy down_. I've done a lot of traditional character studies. I guess the real secret is to _know your tradition art s**t first_, then to translate it into 3D. I was just have trouble with the translation! Anyway, back to the spheres: I was really pleased with the torso, but the limbs still had that icky mannequin-like (not Mannequin the program..which I found used for $20 at a used book store…too bad I hate the models Mannequin produces!) quality. I guess that's where the moving vertices around helps. Anyway, thanks again. I've been stunned at the quality and quantity of advice I've been getting since sending out my S.O.S. The Brotherhood and Sisterhood of 3D Modellers has really come to my rescue. <G> Chase "The Missing" Dahl Pusrocket Studios
#185406From: John K. JordanAug 16, 1995 10:54 AM
>>long-suffering sigh, pushing vertices… I thought you said you enjoyed modeling? <g> When working with vertices, be sure to turn on Vertex Ticks in the Display/Geometry tree. Usually it's best to select and half of the faces of an object from, for example, the top view and hide them. Then select a vertex or two from, say, the front view, then move it, "selected", from a side view. Render a lot from a camera or user view to see what's going on, using flat or gouraud shading with regions for speed. Also, make sure you go thru all the tutorials in the manual – I did them twice. Some people have taken mannequin and other models as a starting point and edited them into something more useful. Martin Foster's comments on lofting using crossections would probably be a faster way to realistic models. For a really good time, try to get a metaballs package. I think you're right about the art/craft/modeling relationship. All this technology makes it very easy for almost anyone to do some really worthless stuff! JKJ
#185770From: Chase DahlAug 18, 1995 1:40 AM
Believe it or not, when I decided to try my luck at a human face, I used many of the vertex-moving procedures you described in your last message. I basically gave it up as a bad, tedious job…kinda like my real one 🙂 That's when I bellowed for help…and found the tedious ways were really the best…hmmm…. <G> Chase