#Which is better?
34 messages in this thread
Reply RE: Vlab & V-Flyer
Two very different machines.
Both can take video/audio in, cut it up, paste it and play it
back. In excellent quality.
They accomplish it in very different ways (American vs. German)
The Flyer would be the machine of choice IF you wanted fairly
easy setup, quick effects (since all transitions are real time) and didn't want
to spend a whole lot of time discovering new ways to do new things. My first
thought is that this would be great for quick news stories and the like.
Vlab, on the other hand, takes a little extra time to learn,
tweek for your tastes, and learn. It does, however give you an unbelievable
advantage in versaitility in multiple picture effects and quality of digital
effects. All effects (except cuts) are rendered, thus the speed is machine
dependent (not too much different than the Media 100). I would compare the
Vlab more closely to the Media 100 system than to the Flyer. The software is
not developed in the same direction (yet) as the Media 100, but that's just the
German way. The Vlab time line has virtually unlimited (well, OK, limited by
1000 effects, video streams, and sound streams) simultaneous events., but you
actually have to build the dramatic effects from elements. In short, if you're
doing Post Production, or Pre-Production, and want to knock the socks off your
clients, the Vlab (once learned) is the way to go. It doesn't have the
tell-tale canned effects look of the Toaster.
By the way, I use both the Video Toaster (in an A2000) and a Vlab
Motion (in an A3000) feeding each other, depending on the application.
I'm gradually setting up a VLAB system myself and I,ve recently acquired the
toccatta 16 bit sound card and the documentation is dreadful. Is there any
other tutorial or reference available, and is the manual for VLAB just as
vague?
BP
> I'm gradually setting up a VLAB system myself and I,ve recently acquired
> the toccatta 16 bit sound card and the documentation is dreadful. Is
> there any other tutorial or reference available, and is the manual for
> VLAB just as vague?
I assume You are writing about V-LAB Motion instead of V-LAB (these are two
different things). The Manual which comes with VLM explaines also the use
of Toccata in combination with VLM. I found the Toccata manual not as worse
as its software, but You won't need both if You are using Your Toccata with
an VLM system. And, depending on Your installed hardware, VLM runs safe and
the GUI is very well designed.
You will love it, as I do 🙂
Dirk,
Do you live in Germany or somewhere in Europe?
I'm also very happy with my VLab-M sys :^) The GUI took a while to get the hang
of but now its become pretty natural for me. I'm not a Pro, just a hobbiest.
I have had a resurgence of interest in Real3D recently and my experinces with
VLab-M helped a lot when it comes to setting up endlessly configurable GUIs
like these two s/w packages. Theres gotta be some common programmers on these
s/w. I think they're both developed in Germany.
MovieShop has progressed VERY nicely in the 9 months I've had the
VLab-M/Toccata sys. I've kinda taken a break from the NLE learing curve
addiction for about a month but I got a wedding to edit next week. It should be
fun to go back to MS 2.5 with a fresh outlook :^) The wedding will be for free
anyway, all I gotta do is edit it. Should be Cake…
Later,
….John
<<I've kinda taken a break from the NLE learing curve addiction for about a
month but I got a wedding to edit next week.>>
I'm just curious of how the quality, sound, and broadcast look of VLAB-M
compares with the Flyer. How does VLAB projects look when you're done? Do
they look like they can be broadcasted on TV? About how many minutes of video
can you put on a 2, 4, 6, and 9 gig hard drive? My interests in this board are
increasing.
Upgrading to the blazing fast DKB Wildfire 68060/50 in October.
Chris Shepard: 030/50 A2000 with Toaster 4000 & MacIIfx via Emplant.
> I'm just curious of how the quality, sound, and broadcast look of VLAB-M
> compares with the Flyer. How does VLAB projects look when you're done?
> Do they look like they can be broadcasted on TV? About how many minutes
> of video can you put on a 2, 4, 6, and 9 gig hard drive? My interests in
> this board are increasing.
Quality depends largely of Your hardware. MS reported a Warpengine System as
the best choice, although Cyberstorm+SCSI is as reliable as a vanilla A3000.
Fastlane sometimes seems to make trouble and a vanilla A4000/040 is not able
to reach any useful quality because of the badly designed RAM-Interface.
A4000/030 is very better (but renders very slow).
There are two issues:
-Picture Quality and
-Render speed (all effects except hard cuts have to be rendered)
Render speed is ofcause directly proportional of CPU speed
while picture Quality depends on the RAM- and Harddisk/Hostadaptor Throughput.
So my vanilla A3000 has nearly the same maximal quality as a 040/40Cyberstorm.
the quality issue is a very diffuse thing. The term "broadcast" has never be
clearly defined and its common meaning differs largely between germany and USA.
You have to remember that VLM has been designed as a consumer system, and IMHO
it is good enough for semiprofi purposes. Because of Newtek's ignorance the
Toaster/Flyer is completely useless in PAL-Europe and therefore I've never
seen this beast in action.
AFAIK the differences are firstly based on the fact that Flyer has two digital
video streams and wipes/dissolves are performed in realtime unsing the
toaster's
switcher. These realtime FX are limited to the capabilities of Toster's
Switcher.
VLM has only one digital video stream and has to render ALL Effects. But You
can
perform nearly all Ideas You have, because it is a full packed with effect
modules.
If You are editing normal videos with unspectacular effects, I assume You would
be more satisfied with a Toaster/Flyer. But if You are intended to make Music
(especially Tekno 🙂 video clips, VLM would be a more flexible system.
(Has the Flyer any Modules for rendered 3D-Video Effects? dunno)
And at this time VLM is not intended to control video recorders (such upgrade
module, i.e. for offline editing is under development)
You can think of ca. 15 Minutes per Gigabyte Video. Unfortunately is
it impossible at the moment to use HD's larger than 2GB for VLM. This is a
limitation of AmigaDOS. Audio qaulity is no issue because you can adjust it
from 9000Hz 8Bit mono to 48kHz 16Bit Stereo as You like.
Very intersting is the forthcoming Draco from Macrosystems Germany which is
designed as a digital video computer. VLM will be available at the end of this
year in a special Darco version which will allow much better picture quality.
(comparable to that of the PAR?)
…waiting for my Draco…
>>If You are editing normal videos with unspectacular effects, I assume You
would be more satisfied with a Toaster/Flyer. But if You are intended to make
Music (especially Tekno 🙂 video clips, VLM would be a more flexible system.<<
More flexible and better, yes, but only because of the total absence of any
power in the Flyer interface.
The Tocatta has to render everything, just like the Vlab/M, EVEN FADES, which
is totally ridiculous. I've taken to not dealing with mixing at all on the
Vlab, and dumping my cut video with sound to my deck to a tape striped with
time code and then using my Ad516 to do mixing and fading and multi-track
stuff. This is unfortunate because it's a 2-stage process, because it takes up
an extra slot that I don't have, and because I really needed to sell the Ad516
to get some money back when I bought the Vlab/M and Tocatta.
>>This is a limitation of AmigaDOS.<<
Not true. AFAIK, that was an old limitation. Now AmigaDOS can handle
partitions up to 4GB.
Paul
Paul wrote:
The Tocatta has to render everything, just like the Vlab/M, EVEN FADES, which
is totally ridiculous. I've taken to not dealing with mixing at all on the
Vlab, and dumping my cut video with sound to my deck to a tape striped with
time code and then using my Ad516 to do mixing and fading and multi-track
stuff. This is unfortunate because it's a 2-stage process, because it takes up
an extra slot that I don't have, and because I really needed to sell the Ad516
to get some money back when I bought the Vlab/M and Tocatta.
—
I cannot fully agree. Ofcause, with Movieshop You must render all Audio fades.
But it doesn't take a long time, especially compared to the time for rendering
video fades. And Your two-stage-audio-processing will probably take more time
than the simple audio rendering under Movieshop. Not to speak about the fact
that it will be much more complicated to achieve synchronized Audio and Video.
I wrote:
>>This is a limitation of AmigaDOS.<<
Paul wrote:
Not true. AFAIK, that was an old limitation. Now AmigaDOS can handle
partitions up to 4GB.
Not true. This limitation is unfortunately still present. It has been confirmed
by Macrosystems and has been also confirmed by myself after fiddling around
with different Harddisk-Hostadapters and Harddisks.
regards
Dirk Taggesell
Dirk-
>>But it doesn't take a long time, especially compared to the time for
rendering video fades.<<
Compared to video, sure, but compared to real-time, it's awful. Just setting a
new in-point requires an all-new render.
>>And Your two-stage-audio-processing will probably take more time than the
simple audio rendering under Movieshop.<<
Nope. If I were doing a very simple job, cuts only, with minimal cross-fading,
you'd be right. But for a 15 minute short film with a relatively complicated
mix, my way will be far, far faster.
>>Not to speak about the fact that it will be much more complicated to achieve
synchronized Audio and Video.<<
That'll be a pain, but since the Ad516 can sync to an external SIMPTE source,
I'll just stripe the linear audio track of my tape with time code.
As to the HD issue, I'm not 100% sure, but I think I heard that with (possibly
OS 3.x) C= changed to signed from unsigned.
Paul
I wrote:
>>But it doesn't take a long time, especially compared to the time for
rendering video fades.<<
Paul wrote:
Compared to video, sure, but compared to real-time, it's awful. Just setting a
new in-point requires an all-new render.
Yes, it is always better to do real time editing with an easy way to make
changes. This all-new render is a disadvantage of all single stram DNL systems.
I wrote:
>>And Your two-stage-audio-processing will probably take more time than the
simple audio rendering under Movieshop.<<
Paul wrote:
Nope. If I were doing a very simple job, cuts only, with minimal cross-fading,
you'd be right. But for a 15 minute short film with a relatively complicated
mix, my way will be far, far faster.
Yes, but You have to have the ability to synchronize video and audio via LTC or
other time code. If You have the appropriate equipment, it will be no problem,
but otherwise it would cost a lot of money (seen from the consumer's view.
professionals can calculate otherwise).
Paul wrote:
As to the HD issue, I'm not 100% sure, but I think I heard that with (possibly
OS 3.x) C= changed to signed from unsigned.
Unfortunately not yet. I've tested it. AFAIK it is a scsi.device issue but not
fixed yet. Macrosystem confirmed this disadvantage also and I assume the _know_
it really.
regards,
Dirk Taggesell
Dirk-
>>This all-new render is a disadvantage of all single stram DNL systems.<<
For video, yes, but for audio, renders could have been done in real time,
whether with a better Tocatta or whatever.
>>If You have the appropriate equipment, it will be no problem, but otherwise
it would cost a lot of money (seen from the consumer's view. professionals can
calculate otherwise).<<
I haven't actually tested it yet, but I believe that any deck that supports
both a linear audio track and the regular striped hi-fi tracks will work with
this. Sound on the hi-fi track, LTC on the linear one, and the linear one
feeding the Ad516's time code reader.
>>I've tested it. AFAIK it is a scsi.device issue but not fixed yet.<<
Oh, oh well. Maybe warpdrive.device is different then. I hope they support
AFS, which provides partitions up to 9GB, but sadly doesn't work with
MovieShop.
Paul
PMFJI –
Two issues you brought up should be clarified.
Prime Image makes a box called the PassPort 4000 which provides the Video
Toaster and, therefore, the Flyer with PAL input and output. This has opened up
the PAL market for Newtek.
As to transitions on the Flyer, you can create ANY transition desired using the
Toaster's LightWave 3D and render the resulting images to a clip on the Flyer
harddrives. Of course, you have all the realtime transitions of the Toaster, as
before, as you mentioned. However, LightWave can let you create any desired
transition clip you wish with multiple sources combined for the final clip.
Using Hollywood F/X and WaveMaker, many sequences can be created with simple
GUI interfaces that don't require extensive knowledge of LW either.
As a result, the flexibility of the Flyer with LightWave provides the user with
practically unlimited create avenues.
Hank
Videology, Inc Where you always get P.O.M.P. and
Service under all circumstances
Hank
>Prime Image makes a box called the PassPort 4000 which provides the Video
Toaster and, therefore, the Flyer with PAL input and output. This has opened up
the PAL market for Newtek.<
Would you mind to post an aproximated price for that? Is it "broadcast"
quality?
Many thanks in advance
Rafa <Motorola Inside>
…via AutoPilot 1.80 from Berlin
Rafael wrote:
Would you mind to post an aproximated price for that? Is it "broadcast"
quality?
While the price is also interesting for me (though I will never consider to buy
a toaster), we should stop to use the term "broadcast quality". There is no
real definition of this term and it has a quiet different meaning for everyone.
Especially there seems to be a large difference in "broadcast quality" between
the USA and Europe.
A lot of video producers here start to consider "broadcast quality" at a level
like the Betacam PVW-Series. For my experiences (in germany), if anyone
mentions "broadcast quality" for a device that doesn't even have YC-Connectors
(and doesn't really work on Y/C-Basis!), he makes a fool out of himself.
This seem to be hard words, but it is true.
regards
Dirk Taggesell
Hank wrote:
Prime Image makes a box called the PassPort 4000 which provides the Video
Toaster and, therefore, the Flyer with PAL input and output. This has opened up
the PAL market for Newtek.
But what about the Quality? AFAIK the toaster can only work in NTSC which
forces these box to convert PAL to NTSC and vice versa. This will result in no
more smooth camera turns (slides) because of the Interpolation from 50 frames
per secont to 60 and back to 50. And a decent loss of picture quality because
of the interpolation from ca.576 PAL-lines to the ca.480 NTSC-scanlines and
ofcause the conversion from NTSC to PAL at the toaster output. I cannot imagine
this to be
satisfying in quality.
Hank wrote:
As to transitions on the Flyer, you can create ANY transition desired using the
Toaster's LightWave 3D and render the resulting images to a clip on the Flyer
harddrives. Of course, you have all the realtime transitions of the Toaster, as
before, as you mentioned. However, LightWave can let you create any desired
transition clip you wish with multiple sources combined for the final clip.
Using Hollywood F/X and WaveMaker, many sequences can be created with simple
GUI interfaces that don't require extensive knowledge of LW either.
I am a big LW fan and I love it (standalone 3.5), but one question comes to
mind:
If You apply a planar image map with an image sequence to a rectangle, how do
You achieve exact the same luminance and saturation like that of the "normal"
video which comes before the LW-generated 3D-Effect?
(Explanation: a scene should be fly out of the screen with the next scene lying
in the background. From the beginning to the end of the effect these two scenes
have to be rendered.) Don't You see a difference (luma/sat..) between the last
pictures of the "real" video and the rendered effect?
And what happens to the fields of the original video? AFAIK LW doesn't use
fields in image maps.
regards
Dirk Taggesell
> I'm just curious of how the quality, sound, and broadcast look of VLAB-M
> compares with the Flyer. How does VLAB projects look when you're done?
> Do they look like they can be broadcasted on TV? About how many minutes
> of video can you put on a 2, 4, 6, and 9 gig hard drive? My interests in
> this board are increasing.
Quality depends largely of Your hardware. MS reported a Warpengine System as
the best choice, although Cyberstorm+SCSI is as reliable as a vanilla A3000.
Fastlane sometimes seems to make trouble and a vanilla A4000/040 is not able
to reach any useful quality because of the badly designed RAM-Interface.
A4000/030 is very better (but renders very slow).
There are two issues:
-Picture Quality and
-Render speed (all effects except hard cuts have to be rendered)
Render speed is ofcause directly proportional of CPU speed
while picture Quality depends on the RAM- and Harddisk/Hostadaptor Throughput.
So my vanilla A3000 has nearly the same maximal quality as a 040/40Cyberstorm.
the quality issue is a very diffuse thing. The term "broadcast" has never be
clearly defined and its common meaning differs largely between germany and USA.
You have to remember that VLM has been designed as a consumer system, and IMHO
it is good enough for semiprofi purposes. Because of Newtek's ignorance the
Toaster/Flyer is completely useless in PAL-Europe and therefore I've never
seen this beast in action.
AFAIK the differences are firstly based on the fact that Flyer has two digital
video streams and wipes/dissolves are performed in realtime unsing the
toaster's
switcher. These realtime FX are limited to the capabilities of Toster's
Switcher.
VLM has only one digital video stream and has to render ALL Effects. But You
can
perform nearly all Ideas You have, because it is a full packed with effect
modules.
If You are editing normal videos with unspectacular effects, I assume You would
be more satisfied with a Toaster/Flyer. But if You are intended to make Music
(especially Tekno 🙂 video clips, VLM would be a more flexible system.
(Has the Flyer any Modules for rendered 3D-Video Effects? dunno)
And at this time VLM is not intended to control video recorders (such upgrade
module, i.e. for offline editing is under development)
You can think of ca. 15 Minutes per Gigabyte Video. Unfortunately is
it impossible at the moment to use HD's larger than 2GB for VLM. This is a
limitation of AmigaDOS. Audio qaulity is no issue because you can adjust it
from 9000Hz 8Bit mono to 48kHz 16Bit Stereo as You like.
Very intersting is the forthcoming Draco from Macrosystems Germany which is
designed as a digital video computer. VLM will be available at the end of this
year in a special Darco version which will allow much better picture quality.
(comparable to that of the PAR?)
…waiting for my Draco…
Dirk,
How many drives can you hook up to VLAB-M? If possible, I'd like to have a
2gig drive hooked up to Input 2 and another on Input 3 of my Toaster, and
finally have another 2 gig hooked to the Toaster Output. Is this setup
possible? On the average, how long would it take to render effects with an 030
and/or 040?
Also, is the Tocatta a pretty decent, standalone 16bit sound editing system?
For example: using Tocatta for audio broadcast editing (no video).
Oh yes, before I forget: can the 1 gig removable JAZ drive by IOmega be
used with VLAB-M? If so, that'll be one hell of a way to store video clips and
use them with the Toaster. Thanks.
Weeks away from a DKB Wildfire 68060/50. Can't wait!
Chris Shepard: 030/50 A2000 with Toaster 4000 & MacIIfx via Emplant.
Chris wrote:
How many drives can you hook up to VLAB-M? If possible, I'd like to have a
2gig drive hooked up to Input 2 and another on Input 3 of my Toaster, and
finally have another 2 gig hooked to the Toaster Output. Is this setup
possible?
—
VLM works completely different to the flyer. AFAIK the flyer is similar to a
Video Machine equipped with the Double-DPR. With VLM instead You have
(normally) ONE Video partition and ONE audio partition. Firstly You have to
"record", means digitize your video material into VLM. Works like recording
with a VCR.
When recorded, You can trim Your scenes i.e. cut a little bit off on the
beginning of a scene or at the end or split scenes. These scenes consists of a
video stream and an audio stream (stereo if You have turned "Stereo" on).
Now You can place these scenes into the timeline, combine them with effects
like wipes, dissolves and all what You want including Lightwave animations with
alphachannel informations.
When ready, klick on the appropriate Button to "render" audio dissolves and
then on another button to render video effects. VLM will render pic for pic
until it is ready. Now You are able to play Your Video, completed with Audio
and Video effects. While assembling the scenes in the timeline You can use upto
255 tracks for video and audio.
Remember: There are NO "Input One" and "Input Two". First record, then
assembling timeline, then Output the Video to tape.
HardDisk capacity is at this moment limited to 2GB for each drive. This
limitation is one of the Amiga OS, not VLM. Ofcause You can install tow or more
2GB drives, but these will be used as different projects, means different
animations. One doesn't "know" of each other.
Chris wrote:
On the average, how long would it take to render effects with an 030 and/or
040?
—
Hmm, on my slow A3000 (030, 25MHz) a simple dissolve between two scenes with a
duration of one second renders at about 10 minutes. Faster CPU's, naturally,
faster. 040/40MHz ca. 4x faster, 060/50 may be 6x or 8x faster, dunno exactly.
Chris wrote:
Also, is the Tocatta a pretty decent, standalone 16bit sound editing system?
For example: using Tocatta for audio broadcast editing (no video).
—
I wouldn't use Toccata for audio editing. The Audio Quality is quiet good (upto
48kHz sampling frequence), but the "Samplitude" Software is not really good.
Espacially compared to Studio 16 for the Sunrize AD516 card.
As long as You are working just for fun, it is much cheaper (DM600 for Toccata
and ca. 200 for Samplitude SMPTE) than Sunrize (ca. DM2500 inkl. Studio 16) but
Studio 16 is much better. If You are about to earn money with audio editing, go
for a AD516.
And now the good news: As long as You are working with VLM, toccata is
completely controlled from Movieshop (Video editing software that comes with
V-Lab Motion) and You can forget Samplitude unless You want to add any "echo"
or "hall" effect to Your audio tracks.
Unlike the Samplitude Software (which comes from a third party developer, not
from Macrosystem) Movieshop is very well designed and working with it is a real
fun. I love it and I can say, after comparing it with some other DNL systems on
other platforms (especially Pro Motion) it is "geil" as we say in germany 🙂
—
Chris wrote:
Oh yes, before I forget: can the 1 gig removable JAZ drive by IOmega be used
with VLAB-M? If so, that'll be one hell of a way to store video clips and use
them with the Toaster. Thanks.
—
Generally You can use every drive that can be partitioned via HDToolbox. May be
also SyQuest Cartridges or MOD's. But the Picture Quality depends of the speed
of the drive and so I'm in doubt that the JAZ will be fast enough (You need at
least 1,5MB/sec for a reliable Quality, >2MB/sec for good Pics).
mfg
Dirk Taggesell
Dirk,
<<With VLM instead You have (normally) ONE Video partition and ONE audio
partition. Firstly You have to "record", means digitize your video material
into VLM.>>
If I understand this correctly: assuming I was mixing 10 music videos with
fades/effects inbetween, I would first record each video to VLM (order doesn't
matter) without mixing them, program VLM the order the videos will be played,
and finally tell VLM which effects I want inbetween the videos and VLM does all
the rest? Would VLM also fade and mix the audio between two music videos
appropriately?
I think the Jaz drive will be fast enough, but don't quote me. I hear it's
faster than ZIP, and about the same speed as a regular hard drive.
Weeks away from a DKB Wildfire 68060/50. Can't wait!
Chris Shepard: 030/50 A2000 with Toaster 4000 & MacIIfx via Emplant.
Chris-
>>I think the Jaz drive will be fast enough, but don't quote me.<<
Paul Gerhardt is pretty optimistic about it. <G>
As to your editing-process, yup, that's about it.
However, the interface was obviously designed by people who really don't know
what editors need. Don't get me wrong–it's not unusable, and it's better than
the Flyer (for control) but it still is awful imo. For example: You can't do a
master-shot style edit, like just dropping an insert into a long take. Rather,
you have to make a copy of the master shot (not the actual video footage on the
drive, just the tag that you deal with in the editor) and trim off the end of
the first one and the beginning of the second and then put the three resulting
shots (Master-1, insert, Master-2) in order. And you can't set in/out points
for shots, which is one of the few good things about the Flyer interface. So
if you decide that you need to start 2 seconds earlier in a shot that you've
already trimmed, you need to go back to the original tag (it's best to make a
copy of everything at the beginning, so that you only edit copies of the
original tags, at least after you trim out the real garbage, before slating and
the like) and re-trim it from the start. MAJOR pain.
Paul
Paul wrote:
However, the interface was obviously designed by people who really don't know
what editors need. Don't get me wrong–it's not unusable, and it's better than
the Flyer (for control) but it still is awful imo.
V-Lab Motion is intended to be a consumer product. Therefore it is not designed
for a profesional editor. And ofcause, like all other editing systems, one has
to get familiar with it. But once You got it, it offers You a very powerful
system which does nearly all what You want. I did already a few projects with
V-Lab Motion and I love the user interface. Especially after I compared some
features of VLM with other DNL-Systems on other platforms like the ProMotion
System on Windows-PC's. Only one example: If Your Harddisk offers You 45minutes
video capacity, with VLM You can record easily 35-40 minutes without running
out of space during editing. Most other DNL-Systems will need twice the Space
during assembling the Movie because they copy the whole movie with all scenes
and dissolves in another file. VLM doesn't do this, and You can work fully
nondestructive. But ofcause, You have to get into it and this takes some time,
especially for the fact that the manual (though not bad) doesn't discover all
the tricks 🙁
Paul wrote:
For example: You can't do a master-shot style edit, like just dropping an
insert into a long take. Rather, you have to make a copy of the master shot
(not the actual video footage on the drive, just the tag that you deal with in
the editor) and trim off the end of the first one and the beginning of the
second and then put the three resulting shots (Master-1, insert, Master-2) in
order.
Not directly, but due to the fact that You can work nondestructive, place the
master scene twice or three times in the timeline, with trimming the end or the
beginning of the copies with the mouse (this feature is AFAIK not mentioned in
the manual). Place the inserts and the FX and You have done it for the Video.
Now drag the master scene into the audio window, drag the appearing auio track
from the audio window to the timeline below the Video tracks, switch off the
audio tracks in the original scenes and You done it also with the Audio.
And Now, any corrections are easily made with dragging the beginnings and ends
or the inserts. No audio has to be rendered, only Video if You have dissolves
and fades. If there are only hard cuts, no rendering time at all.
Not so bad, I think…
Paul wrote:
And you can't set in/out points for shots, which is one of the few good things
about the Flyer interface. So if you decide that you need to start 2 seconds
earlier in a shot that you've already trimmed, you need to go back to the
original tag (it's best to make a copy of everything at the beginning, so that
you only edit copies of the original tags, at least after you trim out the real
garbage, before slating and the like) and re-trim it from the start.
If I didn't understand You totally wrong, it seems that You aren't very skilled
with movieshop. As I wrote above, You can trim scenes placed in the timeline
with the mouse. One Klick, one drag.
regards,
Dirk Taggesell
Chris wrote:
If I understand this correctly: assuming I was mixing 10 music videos with
fades/effects inbetween, I would first record each video to VLM (order doesn't
matter) without mixing them, program VLM the order the videos will be played,
and finally tell VLM which effects I want inbetween the videos and VLM does all
the rest? Would VLM also fade and mix the audio between two music videos
appropriately?
Yes, completely right. Synchronised Audio and Video is automatically garanteed
during the whole editing process, unless You seperate the Audio stream of a
scene from their video stream.
Chris wrote:
I think the Jaz drive will be fast enough, but don't quote me. I hear it's
faster than ZIP, and about the same speed as a regular hard drive.
May be, I wont't deny it but I'm still in doubt.
regards,
Dirk Taggesell
> Do you live in Germany or somewhere in Europe?
Yes, I live in Germany (Munich)
> I'm also very happy with my VLab-M sys :^) The GUI took a while to get the
> hang of but now its become pretty natural for me. I'm not a Pro, just a
> hobbiest.
Yes, it takes a few moments until one has discovered the way VLM "thinks".
but AFAIK it offers nearly all possibilities for performing effects and all
the other nice stuff. This is what it separates from most other DLN systems
on whatever platform.
But for the full packed capabilities You should buy the two disks with extra
effect modules.
> I have had a resurgence of interest in Real3D recently and my experinces
> with VLab-M helped a lot when it comes to setting up endlessly configurable
> GUIs like these two s/w packages. Theres gotta be some common programmers
> on these s/w. I think they're both developed in Germany.
AFAIK Real3D comes from anywhere in Scandinavia, not Germany. But my
experiences
with Real3D are not so good because of its "complicatiness". I don't work with
anymore because I have Lightwave 🙂
> MovieShop has progressed VERY nicely in the 9 months I've had the
> VLab-M/Toccata sys.
Yes, it took a while after the first appearance of the VLM to reach a full
functionality. The first complete version was V2.1 of Movieshop, released in
January. Now I'm working with 2.5.
It should be fun to go back to MS 2.5 with a fresh outlook :^) The wedding will
be for free anyway, all I gotta do is edit it. Should be Cake…
AFAIDiscovered, I tend to state that Version 2.6 (recent) seems to be buggy.
I don't know the difference of 2.5 and 2.6 but it always makes corrupted
pictures
while rendering fades and dissolves.
In the last two weeks I had two clients who reproted problems after updating
to 2.6. I installed 2.5 on their systems and all worked well.
I didn't call Macrosystems already to ask about it, but don't be surprised
after
updating :-/
…waiting for my Draco…
> Do you live in Germany or somewhere in Europe?
Yes, I live in Germany (Munich)
> I'm also very happy with my VLab-M sys :^) The GUI took a while to get the
> hang of but now its become pretty natural for me. I'm not a Pro, just a
> hobbiest.
Yes, it takes a few moments until one has discovered the way VLM "thinks".
but AFAIK it offers nearly all possibilities for performing effects and all
the other nice stuff. This is what it separates from most other DLN systems
on whatever platform.
But for the full packed capabilities You should buy the two disks with extra
effect modules.
> I have had a resurgence of interest in Real3D recently and my experinces
> with VLab-M helped a lot when it comes to setting up endlessly configurable
> GUIs like these two s/w packages. Theres gotta be some common programmers
> on these s/w. I think they're both developed in Germany.
AFAIK Real3D comes from anywhere in Scandinavia, not Germany. But my
experiences
with Real3D are not so good because of its "complicatiness". I don't work with
anymore because I have Lightwave 🙂
> MovieShop has progressed VERY nicely in the 9 months I've had the
> VLab-M/Toccata sys.
Yes, it took a while after the first appearance of the VLM to reach a full
functionality. The first complete version was V2.1 of Movieshop, released in
January. Now I'm working with 2.5.
It should be fun to go back to MS 2.5 with a fresh outlook :^) The wedding will
be for free anyway, all I gotta do is edit it. Should be Cake…
AFAIDiscovered, I tend to state that Version 2.6 (recent) seems to be buggy.
I don't know the difference of 2.5 and 2.6 but it always makes corrupted
pictures
while rendering fades and dissolves.
In the last two weeks I had two clients who reproted problems after updating
to 2.6. I installed 2.5 on their systems and all worked well.
I didn't call Macrosystems already to ask about it, but don't be surprised
after
updating :-/
…waiting for my Draco…
Bob,
<<By the way, I use both the Video Toaster (in an A2000) and a Vlab Motion
(in an A3000) feeding each other…>>
That really sounds interesting. Is there a way to do A/B rolling with the
VLAB using the Toaster effects too? Example: Playing music video #1 on Hard
Drive 1, mixing with video #2 on Hard Drive 2, and outputing through Toaster
out to tape or even onto another Hard Drive for digital storage? Is that too
complicated and only suited for the Flyer, or can VLAB handle that? How does
the sound maniuplation compare with Tocatta vs. Flyer sound chip? I may go this
direction if it does what I need.
Upgrading to the blazing fast DKB Wildfire 68060/50 in October.
Chris Shepard: 030/50 A2000 with Toaster 4000 & MacIIfx via Emplant.
>>How does the sound maniuplation compare with Tocatta vs. Flyer sound chip?<<
I believe the sound capabilities of the Flyer *hardware* are excellent. AFAIK,
they are not utilized at all yet. The Tocatta can play back mono or stereo at
different sampling rates, but anything else requires rendering–including
FADES! Also, it cannot play back more than 2 tracks (if stereo) at once, so
even experiments with transitions have to be rendered. MAJOR TEDIUM!!!
So as I mentioned before, I've kept my Ad516, and swap it into my A3k to use
for later in production.
Paul
Paul wrote:
The Tocatta can play back mono or stereo at different sampling rates, but
anything else requires rendering–including FADES! Also, it cannot play back
more than 2 tracks (if stereo) at once, so even experiments with transitions
have to be rendered.
For the use with Movieshop this is true. But if You are use Toccata as an Audio
Harddisk recording system, Toccata can perform Fades without rendering. And can
also play more than two tracks and mixing them together while playing.
How much tracks depends of the speed of the CPU, because Toccata has no DSP
like AD516 has. (Therefore AD516 costs more than twice the prize of Toccata)
And not to forget, the Audio Software which is available for Toccata is bad
compared with this excellent Studio16.
I can tell You some stories about a copy protection in samplitude SMPTE, which
is not only a stupid idea but also a real pain in the ass.
But that's another story…
regards,
Dirk Taggesell
Dirk-
>>But if You are use Toccata as an Audio Harddisk recording system, Toccata can
perform Fades without rendering. And can also play more than two tracks and
mixing them together while playing.<<
Then why on earth can't the Tocatta do this from within the Movieshop
software!?!?!?!?
Paul
I wrote:
>>But if You are use Toccata as an Audio Harddisk recording system, Toccata can
perform Fades without rendering. And can also play more than two tracks and
mixing them together while playing.<<
Paul wrote:
Then why on earth can't the Tocatta do this from within the Movieshop
software!?!?!?!?
This is an issue of bus and processor load. Altough Toccata has no DSP realtime
mixing is done with the CPU. And mixing two audio streams in realtime means
reading two data streams at the same time instead of one. If You would read a
video stream as the third stream You would have to lower the video data amount
significantly to stay into the speed limit of the harddrive subsystem which
causes a loss of video quality.
The other aspect is the fact, that this could only be possible with simple
A/B-Roll scenarios. As the timeline becomes more complicated (i.e. 2PIP's in
front of a third scene) ther would no more way to mix audio in realtime.
regards,
Dirk Taggesell
Is there a more user friendly software other then Samplitude that will work
with the toccata sound card. The documentation supplied with samplitude is
vague.
Bryan, PFMJI,
The latests version of Octamed (V6.0) supports the Toccata…
Regards,
Juan From Belgium with Autopilot
Juan wrote:
The latests version of Octamed (V6.0) supports the Toccata…
But Octamed is no harddisk-recording software but a tracker.
Therefore no substitute for Samplitude which is unfortunately the one nad only
HD recording Software for Toccata at the moment.