#SKIN on a jumping box
47 messages in this thread
Hi to all!
I`m trying to let a Kellogg`s box run and jump on a table. I made three boxes
and applied SKIN.AXP to the boxes. When I render the Kellogg`s box I only see
some rendered faces. It really doesn`t look like a box <g>. I used the
prefix-options and I applied SKIN to everyone of the boxes. But it doesn`t
work.
I tried an other way: I made one box with a lot of vertices. I used SLICE and
than I applied SKIN. But that doesn`t worked, too. I only saw the rendered
cross sections.
This is my first time with the SKIN AXP and I have no idea what to do to solve
the problems. I want to use SKIN because I want to let my box jump and run. And
without SKIN I`m very limitated to my deformations.
Any help is greatly appriciated…
Michael
Hi Michael,
<< It really doesn`t look like a box <g>. >>
What was your tension set to?
<< I only saw the rendered cross sections. >>
Was skin applied to the root object?
jonas[adesk]
Hi Jonas!
>>What was your tension set to?
From 0 to higher values. I expected 0 would work but it doesn`t.
>>Was skin applied to the root object?
I think so but I`ll check it again…
Thanks.
Michael
Michael, Skin's default values applied directly to an object will produce round
corners. If you apply to a box – you get a sphere. Increase the tension all the
way and you'll get hard-edges. When using Slice first, you need to apply skin
to the root object as Jonas said and make sure you choose _By Prefix_ and not
_By Object_.
Dave Mennenoh
Hi David!
I think I did this things but I`ll check it again. Let me use this chance to
talk to one of the best 3DS artist: will I have problems to assign the
Kelloggs-mapping to the skinned box? And if so why happens this to me? <g>.
Michael
Well, thank you very much for the compliment Michael. I appreciate it a lot. As
far as skin goes. I got a nice fairly hard edged box assigning skin with spline
tension at 100 and smoothness at 50. I believe I left everything else as is. If
you want a perfectly hard edged box you can set smoothness to 100 but it takes
much longer to render. Mapping it is another story. I myself have not tried to
really put a label on a box but it can be done. I did some experimenting
tonight and got pretty close. I need to re-read the docs. Basically, though for
a box you need to figure out the perimeter and make the map approx. 1:1. I'm
going to do some more tests tomorrow night and see what I can come up with.
BTW, after I sliced it the map was exactly the same, just as it should be. Made
me happy. Anyway, keep me posted. Hope things are going good with Rayman.
Dave Mennenoh
Hi David!
I did some things with SKIN and it`s not as good as I expected. I saw the
skinning feature in SoftImage and I loved it. I expected that SKIN comes close
to this high-end program but I was dissapointed. There are not very huge
differences between 3DS and some SGI programs but very important differences
<g>.
We sell RayMan since a few weeks and it seems to be ok. We`re already
developing the second release and we`re very far. I think I`ll upload the first
raytraced flic in the beginning of march…
We have reduced the memory requirement by 70% and speeded up pure raytracing
up to 100%. In combination with the new A-buffer we`re more than fast. We`re
very fast <g>.
Michael
If you want to reproduce the Softimage Skin Envelope technique, then pick up a
copy of Digimation's new Bones Pro. It's every bit as powerful as SI's skin
envelopes (and quite a bit less expensive :-).
– G
Yeah! Everytime it takes a little bit longer until we get the actual technology
here in Germany. The only thing where we`re a step forward to the USA is
raytracing software <g>.
I order Bones Pro. Can`t wait to see it…
Michael
Hi Michael,
I've sent you an example skinned & animated cereal box project via E-Mail.
Don't expect any impressive animation here, I just moved through a few morph
targets. But, do note the following while examining the Shaper, Lofter, Editor
& Keyframer contents :
1) Note that the Deform/Fit Shapes have enough vertices for flexibility in
deforming the morph targets, but not too many, which can screw up the surface
continuity & shading. Note that shape & path STEPS = 0.
2) Zoom-in on the corners of the shapes and note 3 vertices placed very close
together. This gives localized control over the sharpness of the corners,
rather than using the TENSION parameter as someone here suggested, which will
likely cause global creasing that you probably don't want. Control points in
close proximity will locally pull the skin surface closer to the control
lattice.
3) Note that the mesh has regularly-spaced U&V lines which is ideal for this
project, but the caps are a potential problem, due to the way 3DS caps the
mesh, which also happens to be the control lattice. Since the uniform nature of
the U&V matrix is disturbed across the surface of the caps, this can cause
shading/smoothing flaws when deforming the co-planar caps. So, note how I've
placed & spaced the vert's in the shapes….this helps with the capping.
4) Also, note that I've chosen to turn Cap Best ON, and Cap Once OFF, which
will eliminate any shading irregularities due to the caps, in this case.
Otherwise, you'd still have shading problems. This will take longer to render.
5) Note that Skin, materials, & any mapping (use any method, it doesn't matter)
is applied to the POINTER cube. In the Skin dialog, the root morph target is
defined. Control placement of any texture maps using the U&V scale and
orientation parameters in the Materials Editor dialog, as the mapping
coordinates will be tied to the spline surface parameter space (0.0-1.0).
6) Note that a B-Spline surface is chosen in the Skin dialog, with a smoothness
setting of 40, and no tension or bias applied.
Hope this helps.
BILL
Hi Bill!
I`ll take a look at your sample – file. You not only helped but you made me
lucky <g>. I think this example will solve my problems. Thank you again…
Michael
Hi Michael,
You're welcome…glad it helped. Yes, I *may* be back on-line now, sorry for
the delay.
BILL
Bill, you're a true scholar AND a gentleman!
– G
Hi Gary,
<< Bill, you're a true scholar AND a gentleman! >>
Yeah ? Why I am I pulling my hair out trying to configure new o/s, s/w, & h/w
then ? <GG> Seriously, thanks a lot, and sorry for the delay. I'm still right
in the middle of configurations.
BILL
Good luck!
– G
Gary: From Materials Editor Render Last Skinned Objects report error need more
than two objects and only renders the slices. Is that a bug, or aniticipted
anomoly? Since extreme tweaking is often needed for some Skin/Sliced objects it
gets a bit tedious. Perhaps it has been addressed in 4c1? While I got ya on the
line… there are some fine points about GAMMA I need to discuss in detail.
Basically, it has to do with renders intended for composite that were rendered
with GAMMA OFF. My final output is with GAMMA ON and I notice that bitmaps
rendered with GAMMA OFF composite in VPOST darker. I thought that the Input
File GAMMA is supposed to control that. I've also tried turning on GAMMA in the
bitmap entry in VPOST, but results are questionalble. This becomes critical
where Pennello, for example, should be run with GAMMA OFF. Because of this I
have been preparing all my IPAS effects and Pennello with GAMMA ON and
compositing to final render, where as I said, GAMMA is ON and things look fine.
So, I am confused regarding what the docs say about all this, and why PENNELLO
is so insistant on GAMMA OFF, for which they include a WARNING … which I
have disabled!!!!! Please shed light;-> Thanks Jeffrey
Yup, it's true that you can only render single-object and hierarchically-linked
skinned objects from the materials editor. The prefix method isn't allowed
(and at the moment, I forget if it's a 3DS core or skin.axp problem). I'll run
it by Darrel when I talk to him next and he can remind me about it.
Regarding gamma… It sounds like you're rendering with gamma off (linear 1.0
gamma) and then using that image in the vp queue. That means that when it
comes back in, the gamma is inverted, which (since it was written at 1.0) keeps
it at 1.0. File Input Gamma didn't have to do anything, since it was linear to
start with. (FIG takes whatever is coming in, then inverts it to make it
linear inside of 3DS before it re-corrects it on the way out.)
Regarding Pennello, I can't really comment on how it uses gamma, since I'm not
familiar with it. Perhaps the Xaos guys can clue you in.
Finally, the best way to run gamma tests is by taking a smooth grey-scale
gradient and using that as a source through your queue. By watching what
happens to the grey-scale, it becomes very obvious what's happening to the
gamma.
– G
Gary: Regarding the Skin.axp and Prefix Method, I'll just have to use a
substitute object while plinking away in the Mats Ed. <GAMMA> I'll do some
grayscale/color tests in V-POST with Broadcast Screen Test Signals. That should
be fun. How mean I could get if stumbling on a client from hell. Just Gamma
Correct a ColorBars test signal at front end of tape and let him adjust the
monitor for display in his OH SO IMPORTANT storyboard meeting! <Pennello and
GAMMA> I will contact those people this week (what language do they speak in
Canada<ROFL cracking myself up over here>). Have a question
.. no, on the other hand, I'll give it rest for now. BTW, in the fine arts
realm, computer imaging and animation meets with considerable resistance. Was
very pleased to receive notice of a New York State Council of the Arts Media
Production Grant… shocked, considering it's electronic (pun intended).
Sitting in covered wagon, pointed toward the frontier —–> Jeffrey
Hey Jeffery-
Fine Arts huh? All Right!
Congratulations on the NY State Council Grant – thats a big award in the Fine
Arts World and its nice to see someone using 3DS in the running.
Carlton
Thanks Carlton. I moved over to almost exclusive time-base work, but still use
plenty of analog materials. However, have to admit that 3-DS is becoming more
and more dominant as my overall vehicle. Now that I have the PAR and TBCIV,
compositing and overall "jamming" of all the media into one soup has become
easier. Jeffrey
Jeffery
I teach sculpture at Virginia Commonwealth University. Been using 3DS and
lurking on ASOFT for about 15 months. My first real intro to computer
graphics. Waiting for our PAR request to be OK'ed. (g)
Keep up the good work. I'd be interested to know more about your work.
Carlton
Bill,
I would like to thank you for your description of skinning a cereal box any
help I can get in this area is greatly appreciated I wonder if you could upload
the mesh to the library or E-mail it to me also so I could get a better idea of
the U V lines and capping techniqes you described.
Thanks ME
Hi Max,
<< I would like to thank you for your description of skinning a cereal box >>
You're welcome, Max.
<< I wonder if you could upload the mesh to the library or E-mail it to me >>
Max, I've been reconfiguring for a new o/s, s/w & h/w – plus, reorganizing
about 10GB of data. Presently, I'm right in the middle of a mess 'o problems to
resolve, and I'm really not sure where that file is within that 10GB <g>. As
soon as I can, I will E-Mail it to you, or you could ask Michael Bassier to
send it to you now.
Michael ? Help!
BILL
I`m here and I have uploaded the project file (BOX.ZIP) to lib 4.
Michael
Thanks Bill.
Thanks Michael
ME
>>cereal box…
Bill strikes again! Thanks for your time – your help appreciated by lurkers
too. Would you consider zipping the mesh plus the text to the libs for a nice
little tutorial?
JKJ
Hi John,
<< Would you consider zipping the mesh plus the text to the libs for a nice
little tutorial? >>
Thanks John. I've been reconfiguring for a new o/s, s/w & h/w – plus,
reorganizing about 10GB of data. Presently, I'm right in the middle of a mess
'o problems to resolve, and I'm really not sure where that file is within that
10GB <g>. As soon as I can, I will upload it, or maybe Michael Bassier would
send it for me now.
Michael ? Help!
BILL
Hi Bill!
I "played" with your sample project and now I have two new questions:
1. How can I "link" a template object (like pointer) to more than one object.
As you might remember I use three boxes for my Kelloggs box.
2. I found the following line in the SKIN manual:
"A skinned object is limited to a single assigned material."
Is this true? Can`t believe it! I need six materials (for the six sides of the
box).
Why do I have to spend the most of my time to solve technical problems? I
should take the time to let my creativity fly and play football with my
girlfriend (<bg> just a insider joke).
Michael
Michael
Hi Michael,
<< I "played" with your sample project and now I have two new questions: >>
<< 1. How can I "link" a template object (like pointer) to more than one
object. As you might remember I use three boxes for my Kelloggs box. >>
Assuming you mean you have 3 MORPH TARGETS, you do it just like the sample
project illustrates: Apply Skin, Materials & Mapping to the pointer object, and
name the first morph target in the Skin dialog (bottom left I think). Maybe I'm
not understanding what you're trying to do ?
<< 2. I found the following line in the SKIN manual:
"A skinned object is limited to a single assigned material."
Is this true? Can`t believe it! I need six materials (for the six sides of the
box). >>
This is common for a Spline Surface UV-mapped texture, but is not a limitation.
Make a grid, map it to the box & adjust as necessary using the UV parameters
from the Materials Editor dialog, and render several views for reference. Then,
use that grid & rendered views in a paint program to create a single image with
the artwork for all box sides, top, & bottom. This image would look like
artwork that's printed for real packaging, before it's folded. Using a program
like Painter X/2 or 3.0, with an onion skin type feature, makes it much easier.
For further reference, see David Stinnett's text on making & using the grid,
uploaded somewhere here in the libraries.
Unless the box is going to be large on-screen, just use the box as-is (no Skin
applied), or re-loft at the desired resolution (increase path steps). Then use
the YG's Deform, PD Bones, or the new Digimation Bones. The new Digi. Bones
seems to be really nice. Wish I could afford it, but my system has priority.
BILL
p.s. – Oh, could you possibly upload whatever that project was I sent you to
the forum ? A couple of people asked, but I may never find it with this
configuration mess I've created <g>. Thanks.
Hi Bill,
No I don`t talking about three morph objects. I divided my box in three
smaller boxes (top(head), middle(a…), bottom(legs)) and want to apply skin to
this three boxes to let it look like one.
Uhhh! I`m very confused with the UV coordinates, grids and so on. But I`ll
give it a try. Thanks for your help.
I`ll upload your sample PRJ that you sent me in the ASOFT forum.
Michael
Michael,
<< I divided my box in three smaller boxes (top(head), middle(a…),
bottom(legs)) and want to apply skin to this three boxes to let it look like
one. >>
Why ? I mean, what's the point in doing this ? If you Skin the box as a single
mesh, you can deform by PD Bones, Digi. Bones, Deform & other IPAS, or by
transforming/deforming vertices in morph targets. Or, you can Slice the mesh
after Lofting, and use traditional transformation/deformation techniques and/or
IK from the Keyframer. Or, you can build the individual slices in the
Shaper/Lofter. With either or both of the methods, you can animate the box to
mimic anything you've ever seen, other than some smartskin stuff….with a
Keyscript, you can do most of that stuff.
<< Uhhh! I`m very confused with the UV coordinates, grids and so on. >>
It's easy, and the same as when lofting an un-skinned mesh with mapping
coordinates on, and then using them instead of one of the three projection
methods….orienting & scaling the map wrt the mesh is the same scheme.
Just make a grid with numbers in each cell for reference, apply mapping coord's
when lofting the mesh, and assign the grid map. Then move an omni light as
necessary to illuminate & render higher-res Top, Bottom, Front, Back, Left &
Right Side Orthogonal views. Then, in a program like Painter X/2 or 3.0, create
a blank BG image of the desired resolution (matching the grid), and load the
grid on top of it as a FG layer, with just enough opacity to be able to read
the numbers. Then load your test renderings. In this case, when looking at a
Top View for example, you can see what cells of the grid mapped to the top of
the box mesh. Make the BG image the active layer, and "paint through" the FG
layer at the appropriate places, using the grid for reference…or
cut/paste/scale pre-existing box artwork into the appropriate place. Then
repeat this for all the other sides, using the corresponding reference rendered
views as a guide. When finished, make the FG layer 100% transparent & combine
it (drop it) into the new image & save. If you did it correctly, the artwork
for all sides will be mapped perfectly when you substitute the new map for the
reference grid map.
Anyway, gotta' get back to screwing up my new system <g>.
BILL
Hi Bill!
I would sell my grandmother the get the same experience level in animation
that you have <g>. But I already sold her for my Pentium system <bg>.
I think I`ll use in box for my Kelloggs project. I keep you in touch with this
animation…
BTW: this is going to be one of the first RayMan animation: the Kelloggs box
walks to a (don`t know the word) with milk. On it`s way it passes a bottle of
milk (nice refraction). Let us see how it looks in the final version…
Michael
P.S.: please don`t ask things like: "can I raytrace skinned objects? with
RayMan 2" <g>. I have no idea. I would really love
it…
<< I would sell my grandmother the get the same experience level in animation
that you have <g>. But I already sold her for my Pentium system <bg>. >>
I just sold *my soul* for mine, and most everything not tied down, since I have
no granny <g>.
<< BTW: this is going to be one of the first RayMan animation: the Kelloggs box
walks to a (don`t know the word) with milk. >>
Probably the best way to do that would be to use one of the BONES routines,
create a human-like skeletonal structure, define parameters for how the human
skeleton will influence the mesh, then animate the skeleton with IK. That how a
lot of stuff like the Shell Oil commercials (dancing gas pumps & cars) was
done…..probably with human-driven motion capture.
<< P.S.: please don`t ask things like: "can I raytrace skinned objects? with
RayMan 2" <g>. I have no idea. >>
That was one of the first questions I asked Stefan months ago. Best we can
tell, there's now way to obtain the Skin surface triangle data. So, I won't ask
<g>.
BILL
Bill: Excellent description of mapping techniques via PAINTER. But once all of
you started talking selling relatives, well, I thought maybe my mother could
fetch some trade-in value on the new pentium100 with 128mgRAM. No luck, they
didn't want her either. Oh well, I'm getting that system anyway. So here's the
question: What's your Top Choice for video card that is versatile in many
applications but most importantly 3-D Studio?
Hi Jeffrey,
<< So here's the question: What's your Top Choice for video card that is
versatile in many applications but most importantly 3-D Studio? >>
Well, I've only used 3 with 3DS: ATVista, Diamond Viper VLB, and my new Diamond
Stealth 64 PCI. Although I'm still getting the kinks out of the new system, the
Stealth 64 *seems* to be a very good choice for 3DS, other DOS app's, and
Windows. There's 2 versions, DRAM & VRAM 1,2, or 4MB. WRT the 2MB versions, I
honestly can't tell much difference between the DRAM & VRAM versions, although
the VRAM should be faster and costs about $110 more. So, a 2MB DRAM version
seems to be pretty good for 24-bit up to 800×600 & 16-bit > 1024×768, and will
only set you back about $180….a good deal I think.
BILL
Hi Bill, Diamond Stealth 64PCI with 4meg VRAM sounds good. That VRAM really
shows up in other apps where graphics redraws are more on the fly, as edits are
performed. I had pretty much gotten down to the Stealth, having sworn by ATI
for years. But the new 64 ATIs are showing too many flakes in various apps.
Thanks for your input. Jeffrey
I don`t have BONES (Pro) at this time but I asked Lavina (president of
Digimation) to send me one. I have no idea how Bones works but I think I must
have it!
Until I have it I`ll let my Kelloggs box walk in the traditional way: a
complex box with a lot of deformations…
I`ll use the SKIN IPAS for my next project: jumping and dancing condoms with
hands and eyes and so on… <g>.
Michael
<< ..jumping and dancing condoms with hands and eyes and so on… <g>. >>
With EYES ? And HANDS ? Michael, you've been working too hard….take a break!
<G>.
>>With EYES ? And HANDS ? Michael, you've been working too >>hard….take a
break! <G>.
I`ll post this message to my customers and my bank <g>.
The condom animation should look like a cartoon. It will be a movie commercial
spot for an insurence. The Off-speaker will say something like this: "sometimes
you have to be very sure! Take the best for you, take us!"
I think I'll have much fun with this job (when I can control the damned SKIN
IPAS…).
Michael
Michael,
Are you sure that SKIN is the direction that you want to go? I just completed
a 3 month animation of a PC playing basketball. I started out thinking that I
should SKIN the cpu, but soon discovered that it's much simpler to make a
heavily gridded cube, use deform or twist or whatever, and then morph between
them. It may save you some hassles since you won't have any problems with the
texture maps or controlling the "boxness" of the box. It may not seem to be
the intuitive/interactive animation that you want, but I was pleased with the
results.
Keep an eye on the libraries for sample images/flics of my pc, once I figure
out the details of uploading, that is.
Scott
Hi Scott,
I also spent some thoughts on using a gridded cube but I want to let the
middle of the box twist and turn around (like a swinging a…). I think it`s
much easier to use three boxes (top, middle, bottom) and use a SKIN to let it
look like one box.
I`ll watch the Lib`s. I`m very interested in seeing your animation.
Michael
Michael,
<< I think it`s much easier to use three boxes (top, middle, bottom) and use a
SKIN to let it look like one box.>>
I'd be interested to see how you are doing this. How large are your 3 boxes in
relation to the overall box? Are you able to keep the edges from developing
angles where the boxes end and the skin begins? I had imagined that you were
doing it with a series of very thin boxes.
Not to raise anyone's competitive hackles, but Animation Master might also be
an alternative. I've tried to curtail my brand loyalty once I overcame my Mac
bias when I discovered how much better/cheaper 3ds was compared to
ElectricImage. Now I'm much more interested in finding the best tool for each
specific job, and AM has some formidable character animation features. But
overall I like 3ds better. After all, I did MY first major character animation
on it.
Scott
Hi Scott,
we`re still trying to make it work. I made three boxes, every is about 1/4
high than the complete Kelloggs box. But we have still some problems.
Michael
Hi Michael,
I'm jumping in on this thread a little late but here's a suggestion anyway.
use Deform to animate your box. It will keep the corners of the box from
curving.
look at the "jumping brick" animation I uploaded to the ipas library a while
ago.
I could send you a project file if want
-Kyle
Hi Kyle!
I saw your brick and I was very impressed. But I want to make some extreme
deformations. So extreme that skinning the box is the best way to get the
highest quality. I want to render the final frames in a 4K or 8K resolution and
I`ll go very close to the box.
And I want to use this project to learn how to use the skinning feature.
Michael
Michael,
ahhh . . . 4 – 8K resolution . . I see. Well, good luck. 🙂
You might even use deform to get the skin box in the general shape, then move
sets of verts. to get the added detail you need.
-Kyle
Kyle,
Yes, I think that`s the way I`ll do the job. I like deform even it doesn`t
give me all the features I would like to have.
Michael